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piedmontf284000
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Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:31 pm

Passengers are suing Boeing for what they say was a faulty switch which led to the crash

A probe into the Aug. 3, 2016, crash showed no abnormalities in Boeing's 777-300's systems after testing by the manufacturer and downloaded data analysis, according to UAE aviation officials.

No one died but Passengers claim psychological effects from the crash that have contributed to loss wages and quality of life.

Maybe it's just me but I'd be kissing Boeing executives for designing a plane that allowed everyone to walk away.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... story.html
 
BenTheGreat97
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:57 pm

Just more people trying to blame anyone they can for dumb reasons. Hope it gets tossed out and the judge laughs in their faces.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:00 pm

Surprised it took this long. The manufacturer and parts makers are sued as a routine after accidents.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:05 pm

This is getting really pathetic on the part of the pax...

Guess what? You walked away from an accident. Get over it. Life happens...crap things happen to good people all the time...move on!
 
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:04 am

AWACSooner wrote:
This is getting really pathetic on the part of the pax...

Guess what? You walked away from an accident. Get over it. Life happens...crap things happen to good people all the time...move on!


Its not really the passengers themselves.....most of them would be grateful to the crew, the airline and the aircraft manufacturer that they walked away alive from he scene.....it's the vultures in the form of lawyers who get hold of these passengers and goad them into filing lawsuits......
 
AWACSooner
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:11 am

Gr8Circle wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
This is getting really pathetic on the part of the pax...

Guess what? You walked away from an accident. Get over it. Life happens...crap things happen to good people all the time...move on!


Its not really the passengers themselves.....most of them would be grateful to the crew, the airline and the aircraft manufacturer that they walked away alive from he scene.....it's the vultures in the form of lawyers who get hold of these passengers and goad them into filing lawsuits......

The vultures obviously had to sell these idiots on the merits of suing someone!
 
skyhawkmatthew
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:23 am

I don’t understand how there are grounds for a suit. There was no “faulty switch;” the system operated exactly as designed and described in the manuals. Lack of TO/GA modes and thrust levers not advancing ought have been enough of a “warning” that the switches didn’t do anything—and the crew should have known about this behaviour anyway from prior training.

It’s the same as the Asiana accident: simply calling the modes at the top of the PFD would likely have prevented both accidents. Yes, the 777 is a complicated aeroplane with a complicated autoflight system, but it’s the pilots’ job to understand it and know what it is and isn’t doing at a given time.
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itisi
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:21 am

They should be going after EK as it was their pilot that almost killed them all.

As for "be happy you survived" WTH??? I would be asking for something too after almost getting killed!!!
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:23 am

skyhawkmatthew wrote:
I don’t understand how there are grounds for a suit. There was no “faulty switch;” the system operated exactly as designed and described in the manuals. Lack of TO/GA modes and thrust levers not advancing ought have been enough of a “warning” that the switches didn’t do anything—and the crew should have known about this behaviour anyway from prior training.

It’s the same as the Asiana accident: simply calling the modes at the top of the PFD would likely have prevented both accidents. Yes, the 777 is a complicated aeroplane with a complicated autoflight system, but it’s the pilots’ job to understand it and know what it is and isn’t doing at a given time.


Wrong....and this will be highlighted in court..

It's up to BOEING to provide adequate resources to train crews for every eventuality, it's why training manuals and CBT programmes are written by lawyers rather than training staff, and it's why airlines like EK use manufacturer produced documentation to ensure they are insured for every eventuality.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:05 pm

skyhawkmatthew wrote:
I don’t understand how there are grounds for a suit. There was no “faulty switch;” the system operated exactly as designed and described in the manuals. Lack of TO/GA modes and thrust levers not advancing ought have been enough of a “warning” that the switches didn’t do anything—and the crew should have known about this behaviour anyway from prior training.

It’s the same as the Asiana accident: simply calling the modes at the top of the PFD would likely have prevented both accidents. Yes, the 777 is a complicated aeroplane with a complicated autoflight system, but it’s the pilots’ job to understand it and know what it is and isn’t doing at a given time.


There can be endless talk here about if it is possible to blame some automation when something happens with an Airbus.

I asked in another thread what the rationale is, that the TOGA switch does not work when the main gear is on the runway and that it is not clearly indicated when the TOGA switch is not working, the silence was deafening. The 777 being a complicated airplane with a complicated autoflight system is a lame excuse. Automation, especially in difficult situations should reduce workload not add to it. Automation should show what is automated and what needs input clearly at all times. You hit a switch, something does not happen, it will always take added time to realize nothing is happening, remembering a different procedure and doing it.
 
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cv990Coronado
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:18 pm

Are these the same dumb people who delayed the evacuation to take their hand baggage out of the overhead lockers? They should thank Boeing for making it so strong not sue them.
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WorldFlier
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:25 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Passengers are suing Boeing for what they say was a faulty switch which led to the crash

A probe into the Aug. 3, 2016, crash showed no abnormalities in Boeing's 777-300's systems after testing by the manufacturer and downloaded data analysis, according to UAE aviation officials.

No one died but Passengers claim psychological effects from the crash that have contributed to loss wages and quality of life.

Maybe it's just me but I'd be kissing Boeing executives for designing a plane that allowed everyone to walk away.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... story.html


I would be kissing the Boeing Machinists and Engineers...the Executives made it "just barely able to sustain XYZ" because of Profits
 
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777GE90
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:31 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
skyhawkmatthew wrote:
I don’t understand how there are grounds for a suit. There was no “faulty switch;” the system operated exactly as designed and described in the manuals. Lack of TO/GA modes and thrust levers not advancing ought have been enough of a “warning” that the switches didn’t do anything—and the crew should have known about this behaviour anyway from prior training.

It’s the same as the Asiana accident: simply calling the modes at the top of the PFD would likely have prevented both accidents. Yes, the 777 is a complicated aeroplane with a complicated autoflight system, but it’s the pilots’ job to understand it and know what it is and isn’t doing at a given time.


There can be endless talk here about if it is possible to blame some automation when something happens with an Airbus.

I asked in another thread what the rationale is, that the TOGA switch does not work when the main gear is on the runway and that it is not clearly indicated when the TOGA switch is not working, the silence was deafening. The 777 being a complicated airplane with a complicated autoflight system is a lame excuse. Automation, especially in difficult situations should reduce workload not add to it. Automation should show what is automated and what needs input clearly at all times. You hit a switch, something does not happen, it will always take added time to realize nothing is happening, remembering a different procedure and doing it.


Yes you are right, it is not a faulty switch and I am pretty sure it is part of the design element that TOGA is not activated after wheels touch the ground. The reason for this is probably going to be best answered by the people who designed it at Boeing but from my speculation I would hazard a guess that it prevents unintended TOGA activation after landing, which could have deadly consequences.

Wheels on the ground means touchdown has occurred and usually the next priority in the landing phase is to slow down the plane so I guess that's why it makes sense to disable the TOGA once that occurs.

I'm pretty sure pilots would be trained about how the TOGA switch works and it would have been documented extensively in the flight manuals too. Although given this accident has now occurred I guess some thought has to be put into whether it was a good design or not in the first place and whether it can be improved.

Whether it is justifiable to sue Boeing for it is another matter, as the blame could be easily passed onto the pilots (i.e. not learning the proper operating procedure of the TOGA switch) but I guess that's for the lawyers to argue.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:03 pm

777GE90 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
skyhawkmatthew wrote:
I don’t understand how there are grounds for a suit. There was no “faulty switch;” the system operated exactly as designed and described in the manuals. Lack of TO/GA modes and thrust levers not advancing ought have been enough of a “warning” that the switches didn’t do anything—and the crew should have known about this behaviour anyway from prior training.

It’s the same as the Asiana accident: simply calling the modes at the top of the PFD would likely have prevented both accidents. Yes, the 777 is a complicated aeroplane with a complicated autoflight system, but it’s the pilots’ job to understand it and know what it is and isn’t doing at a given time.


There can be endless talk here about if it is possible to blame some automation when something happens with an Airbus.

I asked in another thread what the rationale is, that the TOGA switch does not work when the main gear is on the runway and that it is not clearly indicated when the TOGA switch is not working, the silence was deafening. The 777 being a complicated airplane with a complicated autoflight system is a lame excuse. Automation, especially in difficult situations should reduce workload not add to it. Automation should show what is automated and what needs input clearly at all times. You hit a switch, something does not happen, it will always take added time to realize nothing is happening, remembering a different procedure and doing it.


Yes you are right, it is not a faulty switch and I am pretty sure it is part of the design element that TOGA is not activated after wheels touch the ground. The reason for this is probably going to be best answered by the people who designed it at Boeing but from my speculation I would hazard a guess that it prevents unintended TOGA activation after landing, which could have deadly consequences.

Wheels on the ground means touchdown has occurred and usually the next priority in the landing phase is to slow down the plane so I guess that's why it makes sense to disable the TOGA once that occurs.

I'm pretty sure pilots would be trained about how the TOGA switch works and it would have been documented extensively in the flight manuals too. Although given this accident has now occurred I guess some thought has to be put into whether it was a good design or not in the first place and whether it can be improved.

Whether it is justifiable to sue Boeing for it is another matter, as the blame could be easily passed onto the pilots (i.e. not learning the proper operating procedure of the TOGA switch) but I guess that's for the lawyers to argue.


The airplane manuals are very clear. For the Go Around function to work, the airplane must be in the air, auto throttle arm switches on, glideslope active or flaps not zero, thrust limit mode not takeoff, push the TO/GA lever.

The logic is that if the TO/GA switches are inadvertently selected while on rollout or taxi after the airplane is on the ground, the consequences of takeoff thrust are very bad. I would expect the FAA would consider the case of a single switch activated on landing rollout to cause takeoff thrust and therefore the plane to go off the runway to be an unsafe condition. The brakes can't stop an airplane already moving at takeoff thrust. Logic and pilot training has to prevent this from happening.

The airplane manuals are very clear that the pilots must manually apply thrust in the situation of activating a Go Around after the airplane is on the ground. This is part of pilot training and pretty much works the same way on every Boeing plane. Automation still cannot compensate for a pilot not following the correct procedures.

I could see an evaluation of the current design to put in a delay that allows TO/GA to work for a few seconds after the airplane is on the ground. The problem is that if TO/GA is accidentally selected before thrust reversers are deployed the pilots could think they are applying reverse thrust when at takeoff thrust. It is a problem with no perfect solution.
 
Dardania
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:21 pm

How have other manufacturers solved the problem?
Purely subjectively, there appears to be two ways of getting thrust here (push the levers, press the buttons) - why have two when one could work (e.g. push the lever)
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:27 pm

Dardania wrote:
How have other manufacturers solved the problem?
Purely subjectively, there appears to be two ways of getting thrust here (push the levers, press the buttons) - why have two when one could work (e.g. push the lever)


Pilots have the choice to use the auto throttle or manually control thrust with the levers. Same on all Boeing planes. Most pilots are so accustomed to using autothrottles and using the TO/GA switch that they virtually never touch the levers. Over reliance on auto throt was also a concern on the Asiana 777 event.
 
Dardania
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:28 pm

Maybe it's time to rethink the purpose of the throttle (or thrust?) lever? Sounds like it is from an older time...
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:37 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
777GE90 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

There can be endless talk here about if it is possible to blame some automation when something happens with an Airbus.

I asked in another thread what the rationale is, that the TOGA switch does not work when the main gear is on the runway and that it is not clearly indicated when the TOGA switch is not working, the silence was deafening. The 777 being a complicated airplane with a complicated autoflight system is a lame excuse. Automation, especially in difficult situations should reduce workload not add to it. Automation should show what is automated and what needs input clearly at all times. You hit a switch, something does not happen, it will always take added time to realize nothing is happening, remembering a different procedure and doing it.


Yes you are right, it is not a faulty switch and I am pretty sure it is part of the design element that TOGA is not activated after wheels touch the ground. The reason for this is probably going to be best answered by the people who designed it at Boeing but from my speculation I would hazard a guess that it prevents unintended TOGA activation after landing, which could have deadly consequences.

Wheels on the ground means touchdown has occurred and usually the next priority in the landing phase is to slow down the plane so I guess that's why it makes sense to disable the TOGA once that occurs.

I'm pretty sure pilots would be trained about how the TOGA switch works and it would have been documented extensively in the flight manuals too. Although given this accident has now occurred I guess some thought has to be put into whether it was a good design or not in the first place and whether it can be improved.

Whether it is justifiable to sue Boeing for it is another matter, as the blame could be easily passed onto the pilots (i.e. not learning the proper operating procedure of the TOGA switch) but I guess that's for the lawyers to argue.


The airplane manuals are very clear. For the Go Around function to work, the airplane must be in the air, auto throttle arm switches on, glideslope active or flaps not zero, thrust limit mode not takeoff, push the TO/GA lever.

The logic is that if the TO/GA switches are inadvertently selected while on rollout or taxi after the airplane is on the ground, the consequences of takeoff thrust are very bad. I would expect the FAA would consider the case of a single switch activated on landing rollout to cause takeoff thrust and therefore the plane to go off the runway to be an unsafe condition. The brakes can't stop an airplane already moving at takeoff thrust. Logic and pilot training has to prevent this from happening.

The airplane manuals are very clear that the pilots must manually apply thrust in the situation of activating a Go Around after the airplane is on the ground. This is part of pilot training and pretty much works the same way on every Boeing plane. Automation still cannot compensate for a pilot not following the correct procedures.

I could see an evaluation of the current design to put in a delay that allows TO/GA to work for a few seconds after the airplane is on the ground. The problem is that if TO/GA is accidentally selected before thrust reversers are deployed the pilots could think they are applying reverse thrust when at takeoff thrust. It is a problem with no perfect solution.


You could also disarm that switch later, when reverse thrust is applied or braked below a certain speed. Here the switch is disabled at a point in time when a go around is still likely to be implemented in some situations. I hardly imagine those very skilled pilots to hit the TOGA switch while trying to engage reverse thrust. Still does not explain why it is not possible to indicate clearly that the switch is disarmed along with some other functions that work under some conditions but not others. That things are the same on other Boeing frames is no real argument.
As I said before, here on A.net a lot of posters are prepared to point at the automatic at Airbus or the joy sticks without feed back. It must be permissible to ask the same of Boeing designs if they are rational or perfect or should be that way.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:51 pm

Mjoelnir, yes TO/GA switch could be disarmed later. At what point should they be disabled? I agree that very skilled pilots would not hit the TO/GA switch when trying to engage reverse thrust, but all we need is one pilot who is in a high workload stressed situation to make that mistake and we have a worse situations. It is procedure to always monitor speed and altitude. There were many signs that should have pointed the crew to realize they were not at takeoff thrust.

The Boeing Autothrottle do provide feedback. The thrust levers move and engine indications on EICAS show the N speed changes. I could see an EICAS advisory message showing up that TO/GA is inhibited being added. There probably were airspeed, stall warning and even a stick shaker. Airbus throttles don't move at all when autothrust is engaged by the way.
 
bigjku
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:29 pm

Seems fairly clear cut to me. There are reasons to disarm that switch at some point. We can debate when to do it. There seem to be pluses and minuses for various solutions. They key is whatever is elected has to be clearly communicated. It sounds like this is clearly covered in training materials and a well known aspect of operating the aircraft.

To me if the solution is moving around the point at which the switch is disarmed would logically open up other risk then what you have is pilot error. Could things be refined? Sure, and these things are always evolving. But it sounds like something clearly trained that others seem to fully understand. The decision on when to kill the switch function seems a judgment call to me.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:43 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Mjoelnir, yes TO/GA switch could be disarmed later. At what point should they be disabled? I agree that very skilled pilots would not hit the TO/GA switch when trying to engage reverse thrust, but all we need is one pilot who is in a high workload stressed situation to make that mistake and we have a worse situations. It is procedure to always monitor speed and altitude. There were many signs that should have pointed the crew to realize they were not at takeoff thrust.

The Boeing Autothrottle do provide feedback. The thrust levers move and engine indications on EICAS show the N speed changes. I could see an EICAS advisory message showing up that TO/GA is inhibited being added. There probably were airspeed, stall warning and even a stick shaker. Airbus throttles don't move at all when autothrust is engaged by the way.


Yes and it is criticized here on a.net that Airbus throttles do not move with auto thrust.
Yes in heavy workload situation people make mistakes, exactly.
Automation should help pilots in heavy workload situations. That is why there is a TOGA switch to begin with. Why put it only in the manual when the switch is not working. Showing clearly indicated armed while still flying and disarmed the moment the MLG touches the runway would perhaps prevented a mistake. Decisions take seconds, seconds are sometimes to long. The point is a mistake was made.
 
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CFM565A1
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:05 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
skyhawkmatthew wrote:
I don’t understand how there are grounds for a suit. There was no “faulty switch;” the system operated exactly as designed and described in the manuals. Lack of TO/GA modes and thrust levers not advancing ought have been enough of a “warning” that the switches didn’t do anything—and the crew should have known about this behaviour anyway from prior training.

It’s the same as the Asiana accident: simply calling the modes at the top of the PFD would likely have prevented both accidents. Yes, the 777 is a complicated aeroplane with a complicated autoflight system, but it’s the pilots’ job to understand it and know what it is and isn’t doing at a given time.


Wrong....and this will be highlighted in court..

It's up to BOEING to provide adequate resources to train crews for every eventuality, it's why training manuals and CBT programmes are written by lawyers rather than training staff, and it's why airlines like EK use manufacturer produced documentation to ensure they are insured for every eventuality.


I seems a bit like conflict of interest here based on your profile name... I've always heard that the TOGA switch doesn't work in that situation. So we'll see, typically its crew/training fault and not the manufacturer.
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BravoOne
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:24 pm

It's not what the TOGA switch does, or does not do but rather how the crew is trained to address that issue. I think Boeing/EK may have some exposure in this case.
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:32 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
skyhawkmatthew wrote:
I don’t understand how there are grounds for a suit. There was no “faulty switch;” the system operated exactly as designed and described in the manuals. Lack of TO/GA modes and thrust levers not advancing ought have been enough of a “warning” that the switches didn’t do anything—and the crew should have known about this behaviour anyway from prior training.

It’s the same as the Asiana accident: simply calling the modes at the top of the PFD would likely have prevented both accidents. Yes, the 777 is a complicated aeroplane with a complicated autoflight system, but it’s the pilots’ job to understand it and know what it is and isn’t doing at a given time.


Wrong....and this will be highlighted in court..

It's up to BOEING to provide adequate resources to train crews for every eventuality, it's why training manuals and CBT programmes are written by lawyers rather than training staff, and it's why airlines like EK use manufacturer produced documentation to ensure they are insured for every eventuality.


No doubt that is the prevailing attitude of many people these days. It's also totally unhealthy and counter-productive to enhancing operational safety.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:36 pm

Mjoelnir,

Are you a pilot of a modern FAR 25 plane?

The "solution" you are asking for would require the pilot to look down at the EICAS as he was commanding a go around to confirm the A/T being armed. Is that smart? Movement of throttles to the commanded thrust or non-movement is sufficient cueing for the pilot. The PF clearly didn't understand the basics of the system.

GF
 
george77300
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:24 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
Are these the same dumb people who delayed the evacuation to take their hand baggage out of the overhead lockers? They should thank Boeing for making it so strong not sue them.


That's how I feel. I wish I could take there carry on suitcases and hit them round he head a few times and then throw it all back into the burning aircraft. Boeing and Airbus really need to add a lock the overhead locker control for takeoff and landing in case of emergency.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:18 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:

Pilots have the choice to use the auto throttle or manually control thrust with the levers. Same on all Boeing planes. Most pilots are so accustomed to using autothrottles and using the TO/GA switch that they virtually never touch the levers. Over reliance on auto throt was also a concern on the Asiana 777 event.


Having flown thousands of takeoffs, autolands and go-arounds with the autothrottles engaged in Boeing airplanes I have always maintained contact with the thrust levers until it was "safe" to do otherwise and so have the hundreds of different customer pilots I have flown with. Anybody that doesn't maintain contact with the thrust levers during a critical portion of the flight doesn't belong in the cockpit. As for non-critical portions of the flight, it's true, the thrust levers seldom get touched.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:26 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
This is getting really pathetic on the part of the pax...

Guess what? You walked away from an accident. Get over it. Life happens...crap things happen to good people all the time...move on!


A person in the military refusing to acknowledge ptsd and thinking to just magically "move on" and "man up", figures.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:28 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
Are these the same dumb people who delayed the evacuation to take their hand baggage out of the overhead lockers? They should thank Boeing for making it so strong not sue them.

There is no point in making up from no facts, having no proof of something about people just to hate on them. That is very immature and unprofessional.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:30 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:

Pilots have the choice to use the auto throttle or manually control thrust with the levers. Same on all Boeing planes. Most pilots are so accustomed to using autothrottles and using the TO/GA switch that they virtually never touch the levers. Over reliance on auto throt was also a concern on the Asiana 777 event.


Having flown thousands of takeoffs, autolands and go-arounds with the autothrottles engaged in Boeing airplanes I have always maintained contact with the thrust levers until it was "safe" to do otherwise and so have the hundreds of different customer pilots I have flown with. Anybody that doesn't maintain contact with the thrust levers during a critical portion of the flight doesn't belong in the cockpit. As for non-critical portions of the flight, it's true, the thrust levers seldom get touched.


I should have worded my post better. Hands need to be on the throttle on takeoff in case of an RTO, but usually you aren't physically moving the throttles. The autothrottle servo motors take care of that once TO/GA is pushed and your hand is probably there for 60 seconds or so.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:33 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:

Wrong....and this will be highlighted in court..

It's up to BOEING to provide adequate resources to train crews for every eventuality, it's why training manuals and CBT programmes are written by lawyers rather than training staff, and it's why airlines like EK use manufacturer produced documentation to ensure they are insured for every eventuality.


The last person you'd want writing an Ops manual, training manual or CBT is a lawyer -- the pilots would never understand them. Nor did I ever see one involved with them under normal circumstances.

Airlines use the manufacturer produced documentation directly because it's less expenses than maintaining there own staff. Many large airlines have a dedicated staff that rewrite the Boeing material to suit their own needs. Using the manufacturer produced documentation will not prevent you from being sued -- it's not the prime consideration.
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:37 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:

I should have worded my post better. Hands need to be on the throttle on takeoff in case of an RTO, but usually you aren't physically moving the throttles. The autothrottle servo motors take care of that once TO/GA is pushed and your hand is probably there for 60 seconds or so.


What about a landing?
 
LAXLHR
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:37 pm

piedmontf284000 wrote:
Passengers are suing Boeing for what they say was a faulty switch which led to the crash

A probe into the Aug. 3, 2016, crash showed no abnormalities in Boeing's 777-300's systems after testing by the manufacturer and downloaded data analysis, according to UAE aviation officials.

No one died but Passengers claim psychological effects from the crash that have contributed to loss wages and quality of life.

Maybe it's just me but I'd be kissing Boeing executives for designing a plane that allowed everyone to walk away.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... story.html


After reading through many of the replies on here, I have to say.....

SOMEONE is to blame, Yes! The courts and EXPERTS can figure that out.

Many on here probably have never been in a crash landing before. I have. I was 7 so it was somewhat interesting...although I can still hear the screams of the passengers and everything that went on in the cabin prior. Running away from the plane as people scream its going to blow up, sticks with you. With that said, Im a good 1,000++ flights beyond that, so life continues. To say that one should be grateful to the construction of the aircraft. Absolutely. Praise goes to Boeing. Do passengers have the right to find someone liable?. Without a doubt, yes!!.

Sometimes its easier to sue the manufacturer (in this case) to open the doors to suing EK.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:58 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:

I should have worded my post better. Hands need to be on the throttle on takeoff in case of an RTO, but usually you aren't physically moving the throttles. The autothrottle servo motors take care of that once TO/GA is pushed and your hand is probably there for 60 seconds or so.


What about a landing?


Dardania was talking about appplyinf takeoff thrust and once you hit TO/GA you won't be landing :)

Approach is entirely different. I will give you that I exaggerated when I said virtually never. Maybe 5 minutes on an entire flight will hands be on the throttle depending on type of approach
 
ubeema
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:02 pm

Anyone here knows whether an official investigation report has been issued for this accident?
 
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Btblue
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:16 pm

In terms of compensation, I imagine you're looking at replacing items damaged in the fire that passengers did not have time to remove. Baggage in the hold. Freight being carried.

Have Emirates offered passengers anything in the form of flights or membership deals? I understand that the BA 777 crash at Heathrow passengers were offered lifetime gold membership or something like that.
 
wingman
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:18 pm

Curious if anyone has been through 777 pilot training and can tell us how much focus there is on TOGA functionality in the landing phase. My assumption would be that TOGA functions and any associated "oddities" would be emblazoned in red on Page 1 of Chapter 2 "Landing the Airplane". And certainly after Asiana it would seem that routine simulator training would highlight the workings of the TOGA in a 777 during the landing phase. If my assumption is anywhere close it seems that one of the 2-3 pilots in the cockpit would know to call for manual thrust. Obviously no one did but TOGA still strikes me as being some very fundamental stuff in the training process.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:27 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
skyhawkmatthew wrote:
I don’t understand how there are grounds for a suit. There was no “faulty switch;” the system operated exactly as designed and described in the manuals. Lack of TO/GA modes and thrust levers not advancing ought have been enough of a “warning” that the switches didn’t do anything—and the crew should have known about this behaviour anyway from prior training.

It’s the same as the Asiana accident: simply calling the modes at the top of the PFD would likely have prevented both accidents. Yes, the 777 is a complicated aeroplane with a complicated autoflight system, but it’s the pilots’ job to understand it and know what it is and isn’t doing at a given time.


Wrong....and this will be highlighted in court..

It's up to BOEING to provide adequate resources to train crews for every eventuality, it's why training manuals and CBT programmes are written by lawyers rather than training staff, and it's why airlines like EK use manufacturer produced documentation to ensure they are insured for every eventuality.

Which is exactly what they do and why 777s perform safe go arounds all the time with the pilots knowing better than to simply hit the TOGA button and expect it to do something it's not designed to do. Perhaps this is a case where the Airbus design some love to make fun of is better.
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airzona11
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:45 pm

LAXLHR wrote:
piedmontf284000 wrote:
Passengers are suing Boeing for what they say was a faulty switch which led to the crash

A probe into the Aug. 3, 2016, crash showed no abnormalities in Boeing's 777-300's systems after testing by the manufacturer and downloaded data analysis, according to UAE aviation officials.

No one died but Passengers claim psychological effects from the crash that have contributed to loss wages and quality of life.

Maybe it's just me but I'd be kissing Boeing executives for designing a plane that allowed everyone to walk away.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... story.html


After reading through many of the replies on here, I have to say.....

SOMEONE is to blame, Yes! The courts and EXPERTS can figure that out.

Many on here probably have never been in a crash landing before. I have. I was 7 so it was somewhat interesting...although I can still hear the screams of the passengers and everything that went on in the cabin prior. Running away from the plane as people scream its going to blow up, sticks with you. With that said, Im a good 1,000++ flights beyond that, so life continues. To say that one should be grateful to the construction of the aircraft. Absolutely. Praise goes to Boeing. Do passengers have the right to find someone liable?. Without a doubt, yes!!.

Sometimes its easier to sue the manufacturer (in this case) to open the doors to suing EK.


Why does someone have to be sued?
 
emiratesdriver
Posts: 292
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:10 pm

7BOEING7 wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:

Wrong....and this will be highlighted in court..

It's up to BOEING to provide adequate resources to train crews for every eventuality, it's why training manuals and CBT programmes are written by lawyers rather than training staff, and it's why airlines like EK use manufacturer produced documentation to ensure they are insured for every eventuality.


The last person you'd want writing an Ops manual, training manual or CBT is a lawyer -- the pilots would never understand them. Nor did I ever see one involved with them under normal circumstances.

Airlines use the manufacturer produced documentation directly because it's less expenses than maintaining there own staff. Many large airlines have a dedicated staff that rewrite the Boeing material to suit their own needs. Using the manufacturer produced documentation will not prevent you from being sued -- it's not the prime consideration.


Haha, I'm guessing then that you've not seen the EK 777 training manuals or FCOM, nor do you think that the EICAS "autospeedbrake" rather than it stowing automatically is nothing to do with liability? Every procedure is scrutinised and re-written if required by a legal "professional". EK don't write their manuals, we use Boeing and Airbus procedures verbatim.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:22 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
7BOEING7 wrote:
emiratesdriver wrote:

Wrong....and this will be highlighted in court..

It's up to BOEING to provide adequate resources to train crews for every eventuality, it's why training manuals and CBT programmes are written by lawyers rather than training staff, and it's why airlines like EK use manufacturer produced documentation to ensure they are insured for every eventuality.


The last person you'd want writing an Ops manual, training manual or CBT is a lawyer -- the pilots would never understand them. Nor did I ever see one involved with them under normal circumstances.

Airlines use the manufacturer produced documentation directly because it's less expenses than maintaining there own staff. Many large airlines have a dedicated staff that rewrite the Boeing material to suit their own needs. Using the manufacturer produced documentation will not prevent you from being sued -- it's not the prime consideration.


Haha, I'm guessing then that you've not seen the EK 777 training manuals or FCOM, nor do you think that the EICAS "autospeedbrake" rather than it stowing automatically is nothing to do with liability? Every procedure is scrutinised and re-written if required by a legal "professional". EK don't write their manuals, we use Boeing and Airbus procedures verbatim.


Boeing manuals are not scrutinized and re-written by lawyers. They are written by engineers and approved by Authorized Representatives of the FAA or the FAA themselves. They are written in basic English and have more cautions and warnings than most people would like, but the FAA and safety folks are behind that, not lawyers.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:27 pm

Every Boeing airplane built that is flying today started with a Boeing FCOM, or it's equivalent. Even the old beat up 737-200 that's working somewhere in a 3rd world operation has an underlying FCOM. Operators can modify the within certain limitations, but as a rule do not stray far off the farm. EK runs an excellent training department and along with Boeings support provide a sound basis for a new pilot to qualify in a Boeing aircraft. There is a saying around Boeing that says aviators and engineers design the systems but they are not deployed until legal has laid eyes on them, I don't know if that is true, but it sets the tone for training development. The fact that the Asiana and EK accidents occurred after thousands and thousands of landings and in both cases there was no mechanical problems found with the aircraft, make think that there was an airmanship issue, combined with a possible training component as a root cause to both of these accidents.
 
727200
Posts: 633
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:31 pm

WHOA forget the thread, I love the collage you have as signature. Individually the pics are great,, but as a group even better. You get my vote for best signature on A-Net!
 
george77300
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:57 pm

b747400erf wrote:
cv990Coronado wrote:
Are these the same dumb people who delayed the evacuation to take their hand baggage out of the overhead lockers? They should thank Boeing for making it so strong not sue them.

There is no point in making up from no facts, having no proof of something about people just to hate on them. That is very immature and unprofessional.


There is lots of proof of this. Watch the onboard video someone posted as well as view of evacuation. There were many people, mainly Indian men, taking bags out of overhead bins and blocking aisles while people are screaming trying to get past. This is why people were calling for the ability to lock overhead lockers after this incident.
 
Ticketyboo
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:04 pm

Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:57 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
skyhawkmatthew wrote:
I don’t understand how there are grounds for a suit. There was no “faulty switch;” the system operated exactly as designed and described in the manuals. Lack of TO/GA modes and thrust levers not advancing ought have been enough of a “warning” that the switches didn’t do anything—and the crew should have known about this behaviour anyway from prior training.

It’s the same as the Asiana accident: simply calling the modes at the top of the PFD would likely have prevented both accidents. Yes, the 777 is a complicated aeroplane with a complicated autoflight system, but it’s the pilots’ job to understand it and know what it is and isn’t doing at a given time.


There can be endless talk here about if it is possible to blame some automation when something happens with an Airbus.

I asked in another thread what the rationale is, that the TOGA switch does not work when the main gear is on the runway and that it is not clearly indicated when the TOGA switch is not working, the silence was deafening. The 777 being a complicated airplane with a complicated autoflight system is a lame excuse. Automation, especially in difficult situations should reduce workload not add to it. Automation should show what is automated and what needs input clearly at all times. You hit a switch, something does not happen, it will always take added time to realize nothing is happening, remembering a different procedure and doing it.


You are absolutely correct. In other critical industries the development of life-critical products, such as medical devices, requires Human Factors Engineering to be utilised to reduce risks to an acceptable level and to ensure that these systems are intuitive (validated as such through testing). At such a critical phase of flight the work loading on the crew is at its peak, the safeguards on such a 'complex' craft should reflect this and the potential scenarios. The Boeing lovers are understandably upset at aspirations being cast, but it is a shortcoming nevertheless and I wish the passengers well in pursuit of their settlements for it is this that shall make the industry sit up. Let us now await the crescendo from the 'Boeing Can Do No Wrong' brigade.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:36 pm

Ticketyboo (???) would care to expand on this group you speak of? Are qualified on any Boeing aircraft or is all your first hand knowledge and expertise gained from the internet. I have never heard of this group so I am keenly interested in learning more.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:06 am

It's the same with these lawsuits, it's just reaching for big pockets and going after all parties involved. Learned this when I saw the Colgan 3407 lawsuits, they went after Colgan Air and Continental (a given) but they also went after Bombardier and Pratt & Whitney, who had nothing to do with this pilot error crash.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
AirCalSNA
Posts: 397
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:26 am

As a defense lawyer I find the outrage over the filing of a lawsuit after an accident both amusing and odd. Product-liability lawsuits are a significant means by which the state of the art is advanced and manufacturers are compelled to design and build safe products. And people have the legal right not to be physically or psychologically harmed by the avoidable negligence of others ... which is a question of fact and in this situation will likely be proven by the testimony of experts on both sides. It's silly to become outraged over the mere filing of a complaint, since the contentions of both sides ultimately have to be proven with evidence. The legal system also has many safeguards in place to allow parties to seek early dismissal of cases that are groundless.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Passengers sue Boeing for EK 521 crash

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:32 am

AirCalSNA wrote:
...It's silly to become outraged over the mere filing of a complaint, since the contentions of both sides ultimately have to be proven with evidence....


Evidence? Of Boeing's fault? How you dare!! This is a.net, sadly.........

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