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mhkansan
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DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:10 am

Today is the day where United, Spirit, Air Canada, and WestJet moved out of the E satellite terminal in DFW to their new homes on the main loop of E.

Now that TRIP is complete, what is the plan for the E-satelite? I know that AA just announced more CRJ-700s were coming to ExpressJet, which has its reasonably-sized American Eagle operation at the old US Airways gates in E. This operation is occasionally gate constrained and is growing. Will the satellite be boarded up like it was after the Delta operation left? What's the plan?

I'm asking because I am curious but also because it is a favorite place to walk to and watch airplanes during long DFW layovers!
 
jplatts
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:45 am

Could Southwest Airlines lease gates in the DFW Terminal E Satellite Terminal in 2025 when it can start service out of DFW without having to give up gates at Dallas Love Field? Even though Southwest Airlines wanted the Wright Amendment repealed instead of choosing to start service out of DFW Airport 12 years ago, Southwest Airlines has started service to airports that it has long stayed out of, including ATL, BOS, CVG, CLT, MEM, MSP, LGA, EWR, SFO, DCA, and IAD.

Sun Country could possibly use 1 or 2 gates in the Terminal E Satellite for its DFW-MSP nonstops.
 
ScottB
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:27 am

jplatts wrote:
Could Southwest Airlines lease gates in the DFW Terminal E Satellite Terminal in 2025 when it can start service out of DFW without having to give up gates at Dallas Love Field?


They could... but they won't. I daresay we'd likely see scheduled WN flights at LHR before we'd see scheduled WN flights (not diversions or charters) at DFW.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:29 am

jplatts wrote:
Could Southwest Airlines lease gates in the DFW Terminal E Satellite Terminal in 2025 when it can start service out of DFW without having to give up gates at Dallas Love Field? Even though Southwest Airlines wanted the Wright Amendment repealed instead of choosing to start service out of DFW Airport 12 years ago, Southwest Airlines has started service to airports that it has long stayed out of, including ATL, BOS, CVG, CLT, MEM, MSP, LGA, EWR, SFO, DCA, and IAD.

Sun Country could possibly use 1 or 2 gates in the Terminal E Satellite for its DFW-MSP nonstops.


There is no logical reason for WN to split flights between DAL and DFW. They have a near monopoly at DAL. Why move flights to DFW? It might give some folks in Tarrant County an alternative, but it will never happen.
 
flyguy84
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:40 am

jplatts wrote:
Could Southwest Airlines lease gates in the DFW Terminal E Satellite Terminal in 2025 when it can start service out of DFW without having to give up gates at Dallas Love Field? Even though Southwest Airlines wanted the Wright Amendment repealed instead of choosing to start service out of DFW Airport 12 years ago, Southwest Airlines has started service to airports that it has long stayed out of, including ATL, BOS, CVG, CLT, MEM, MSP, LGA, EWR, SFO, DCA, and IAD.

Sun Country could possibly use 1 or 2 gates in the Terminal E Satellite for its DFW-MSP nonstops.


Sun Country uses gates in D... no need to move.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:47 pm

Great news. I'll be flying out of DFW on 9/1 to Europe on LH, but will hop a tram ride over to check it out. Ideally, they should renovate the E Satellite now. Once redone, that could be a very nice 8 or so gates for someone to use (either new entrant or expansion). It's a little bit of a walk, but in the grand scheme of things, not too bad. I enjoyed my flights leaving from there on United, but it would be nice if it was completely renovated.
 
commavia
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:52 pm

If/as AA needs more gates, particularly for Eagle, I could see AA continue to grow on E. Specifically, it isn't hard for me to imagine DFW moving the ULCCs (Spirit and Frontier) plus maybe some of the other smaller operators (Alaska, JetBlue, WestJet) back out to the E satellite to make more room for Eagle on E.
 
Sooner787
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:11 pm

flyguy84 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Could Southwest Airlines lease gates in the DFW Terminal E Satellite Terminal in 2025 when it can start service out of DFW without having to give up gates at Dallas Love Field? Even though Southwest Airlines wanted the Wright Amendment repealed instead of choosing to start service out of DFW Airport 12 years ago, Southwest Airlines has started service to airports that it has long stayed out of, including ATL, BOS, CVG, CLT, MEM, MSP, LGA, EWR, SFO, DCA, and IAD.

Sun Country could possibly use 1 or 2 gates in the Terminal E Satellite for its DFW-MSP nonstops.


Sun Country uses gates in D... no need to move.


I've seen Sun Country loading from Terminal D's south ramp many times,
I imagine they'd prefer a couple of the E satelitte gates over pad ops
 
HeeseokKoo
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:31 pm

commavia wrote:
If/as AA needs more gates, particularly for Eagle, I could see AA continue to grow on E. Specifically, it isn't hard for me to imagine DFW moving the ULCCs (Spirit and Frontier) plus maybe some of the other smaller operators (Alaska, JetBlue, WestJet) back out to the E satellite to make more room for Eagle on E.

I just hope AA use the satellite and add another lounge there. That will bring 13?14? gates in E, large enough to justifies a lounge.
 
FriscoHeavy
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:45 pm

HeeseokKoo wrote:
commavia wrote:
If/as AA needs more gates, particularly for Eagle, I could see AA continue to grow on E. Specifically, it isn't hard for me to imagine DFW moving the ULCCs (Spirit and Frontier) plus maybe some of the other smaller operators (Alaska, JetBlue, WestJet) back out to the E satellite to make more room for Eagle on E.

I just hope AA use the satellite and add another lounge there. That will bring 13?14? gates in E, large enough to justifies a lounge.



I'd prefer AA keep gates in the main terminal and build a lounge there if they were to do it. You could move all of Spirit, Frontier, etc out to the satellite, making things easier and cleaner.
 
stevend08
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:21 pm

Right now Westjet is still using one gate over at the E satelite (E22 I believe) so the satelite terminal should remain operational until they end their service for the year.
 
HeeseokKoo
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:25 pm

FriscoHeavy wrote:
HeeseokKoo wrote:
I just hope AA use the satellite and add another lounge there. That will bring 13?14? gates in E, large enough to justifies a lounge.


I'd prefer AA keep gates in the main terminal and build a lounge there if they were to do it. You could move all of Spirit, Frontier, etc out to the satellite, making things easier and cleaner.

That would be optimal, but other airlines don't add up to 9 gates (NK 3 gates, F9 1, AS 1, B6 1, AC 1 but some/many wouldn't move), and I'm not sure there's a space for a lounge in E main terminal. Satellite reviews were, surprisingly, not too bad.
 
Sooner787
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:45 pm

HeeseokKoo wrote:
FriscoHeavy wrote:
HeeseokKoo wrote:
I just hope AA use the satellite and add another lounge there. That will bring 13?14? gates in E, large enough to justifies a lounge.


I'd prefer AA keep gates in the main terminal and build a lounge there if they were to do it. You could move all of Spirit, Frontier, etc out to the satellite, making things easier and cleaner.

That would be optimal, but other airlines don't add up to 9 gates (NK 3 gates, F9 1, AS 1, B6 1, AC 1 but some/many wouldn't move), and I'm not sure there's a space for a lounge in E main terminal. Satellite reviews were, surprisingly, not too bad.



I like that satellite terminal. The concessions are close by and as someone else mentioned,
it affords great views of the runways
 
jplatts
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:33 pm

If AA plans to expand at Terminal E at DFW, a behind-security connector walkway between the southern end of Terminal C and the northern end of Terminal E should be constructed.
 
flyguy84
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:38 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
jplatts wrote:
If AA plans to expand at Terminal E at DFW, a behind-security connector walkway between the southern end of Terminal C and the northern end of Terminal E should be constructed.

Wow. What a long walk that would be. From C to the far end of E. No thanks. Take the train.
 
putthoff
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:44 pm

WIll the United Club stay open? It is on the way to the satellite.
 
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AA777223
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:44 pm

What will happen to the United Club there? It is underground in the walkway to the satellite, on the satellite side, if I remember correctly. Will it be moved, or will they shut it down altogether, as DFW isn't a big station for them these post-consolidation days?
 
kbmiflyer
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:47 pm

jplatts wrote:
If AA plans to expand at Terminal E at DFW, a behind-security connector walkway between the southern end of Terminal C and the northern end of Terminal E should be constructed.


Along with a connector from the southern end of C to the southern end of D. Since we are making a wish list, a walkway from the northern end of D to the Northern end of A would be nice too.

The sky train is nice, but I personally like to walk in airport as much as possible.

Won't American Eagle be possibly moving out of E once all of the remodeling of the other terminals is done?
 
atl100million
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:57 pm

If DL is serious about adding flights at DFW, I suspect they have requested another gate or two.

E is right now the growth/domestic common use terminal at DFW so will continue to see additional activity.

I would imagine that AA would love to consolidate its operation and leave E if at all possible - but that might not be.
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:14 pm

DFW is reasonably gate-tight right now even after the terminal B stinger was added. If Eagle wants to keep operating some flights from E (as I believe they feel that they must) I think it would make more sense for them to keep the gates near the north or south Skylink stop in E as much Eagle flying is connecting, whereas most of the airlines that they could push to the satelite (WestJet, Alaska, JetBlue, etc) are primarily O&D. If they moved Eagle out there making a connection in under 45 minutes from the satellite to the B stinger would be next to impossible.

BTW - is there a historical reason the B Admirals Club is way down at the end of B rather than towards the middle of the terminal? It's a hike from there to the north end of B!
 
alfa164
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:30 pm

mhkansan wrote:
Today is the day where United, Spirit, Air Canada, and WestJet moved out of the E satellite terminal in DFW to their new homes on the main loop of E.
Now that TRIP is complete, what is the plan for the E-satelite? I know that AA just announced more CRJ-700s were coming to ExpressJet, which has its reasonably-sized American Eagle operation at the old US Airways gates in E. This operation is occasionally gate constrained and is growing. Will the satellite be boarded up like it was after the Delta operation left? What's the plan?
I'm asking because I am curious but also because it is a favorite place to walk to and watch airplanes during long DFW layovers!

I had thought at one time Spirit was interested in making the Satellite "its" terminal.
 
commavia
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:30 pm

kbmiflyer wrote:
Won't American Eagle be possibly moving out of E once all of the remodeling of the other terminals is done?


Doubtful. I think AA needs the gates:

dfdubflyer wrote:
DFW is reasonably gate-tight right now even after the terminal B stinger was added.


This. Returning to a banked schedule, by all accounts and public statements, has been an overwhelming financial success for AA. But it has unquestionably put a strain on the DFW facilities and, frankly, undermined a lot of the logic that went into all the TRIP renovations that commenced before AA even filed for Chapter 11. I think that, as much as anything else, is why AA is now using E gates for overflow - because during the banks, A/B/C/D just do not have enough gates. And barring an economic cataclysm, this challenge is likely to persist because, I suspect, AA's is going to keep growing at DFW.

dfdubflyer wrote:
If Eagle wants to keep operating some flights from E (as I believe they feel that they must) I think it would make more sense for them to keep the gates near the north or south Skylink stop in E as much Eagle flying is connecting, whereas most of the airlines that they could push to the satelite (WestJet, Alaska, JetBlue, etc) are primarily O&D. If they moved Eagle out there making a connection in under 45 minutes from the satellite to the B stinger would be next to impossible.


Agreed. Proximity to SkyLink is key because the Eagle operations on E, like on B and D, cater to so many connections.

dfdubflyer wrote:
BTW - is there a historical reason the B Admirals Club is way down at the end of B rather than towards the middle of the terminal? It's a hike from there to the north end of B!


There is. Those low B gates were AA's "original" gates in B from back in 1999, before the TWA purchase and before the terminals were reshuffled after Delta's hub closure. At that time, in 1999, AA began operating from low B gates, plus the B gate extension (which is today the B-D connector) and built that Admirals Club in what was, at that time, right in the middle of its gates in the area. Those gates were, at that time, prioritized for high-O&D and/or high-originating markets like LAX and ORD. Later, once AA's schedule declined post-9/11 but before the Delta hub closure lead to it ramping back up again, AA downgrading that Admirals Club to an Admirals Club "Service Center," but now with AA controlling all of B, that club has gotten far busier.
 
airplanedaj
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:45 pm

dfdubflyer wrote:
BTW - is there a historical reason the B Admirals Club is way down at the end of B rather than towards the middle of the terminal? It's a hike from there to the north end of B!


I think before Terminal D was built, the north side of B was used for International Ops, while the south side of B was Eagle Ops, combined with a remote concourse north of A, hence the location.
 
stevend08
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:53 pm

AA777223 wrote:
What will happen to the United Club there? It is underground in the walkway to the satellite, on the satellite side, if I remember correctly. Will it be moved, or will they shut it down altogether, as DFW isn't a big station for them these post-consolidation days?


The United Club will be moved back to its original spot near E7. Not sure when that move will happen or if it has happened. At our preview on Monday they didn't give us much of a schedule.
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:22 pm

airplanedaj wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
BTW - is there a historical reason the B Admirals Club is way down at the end of B rather than towards the middle of the terminal? It's a hike from there to the north end of B!


I think before Terminal D was built, the north side of B was used for International Ops, while the south side of B was Eagle Ops, combined with a remote concourse north of A, hence the location.


Kind of. This is how I remember when AA originally expanded to B in the late 90's:
Low/South B gates was AA mainline, the rest was all of the non-AA/DL carriers, including foreign flag.
E was pretty much all DL (I believe Northwest and Air Train were also in there)
American Eagle was in the "A2" satellite that is now General Aviation.

SO, at the time AA expended to B, the Admirals Club was centrally located for AA.
 
AAtakeMeAway
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:24 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Could Southwest Airlines lease gates in the DFW Terminal E Satellite Terminal in 2025 when it can start service out of DFW without having to give up gates at Dallas Love Field? Even though Southwest Airlines wanted the Wright Amendment repealed instead of choosing to start service out of DFW Airport 12 years ago, Southwest Airlines has started service to airports that it has long stayed out of, including ATL, BOS, CVG, CLT, MEM, MSP, LGA, EWR, SFO, DCA, and IAD.

Sun Country could possibly use 1 or 2 gates in the Terminal E Satellite for its DFW-MSP nonstops.


Sun Country uses gates in D... no need to move.


I've seen Sun Country loading from Terminal D's south ramp many times,
I imagine they'd prefer a couple of the E satelitte gates over pad ops


Do you mean passengers being "bussed" to a remote pad? I didn't realize there was any of that happening at DFW at this time.
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:46 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
flyguy84 wrote:

Sun Country uses gates in D... no need to move.


I've seen Sun Country loading from Terminal D's south ramp many times,
I imagine they'd prefer a couple of the E satelitte gates over pad ops


Do you mean passengers being "bussed" to a remote pad? I didn't realize there was any of that happening at DFW at this time.


I took a Spirit flight New Years day CUN-DFW (that was a rough crowd) and we were bussed to D. from the tarmac.
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:57 pm

Anyone know why SY operates out of D? Is it because of the INTL flights they operate? Not sure how their operation would differ from NK...

commavia wrote:

There is. Those low B gates were AA's "original" gates in B from back in 1999, before the TWA purchase and before the terminals were reshuffled after Delta's hub closure. At that time, in 1999, AA began operating from low B gates, plus the B gate extension (which is today the B-D connector) and built that Admirals Club in what was, at that time, right in the middle of its gates in the area. Those gates were, at that time, prioritized for high-O&D and/or high-originating markets like LAX and ORD. Later, once AA's schedule declined post-9/11 but before the Delta hub closure lead to it ramping back up again, AA downgrading that Admirals Club to an Admirals Club "Service Center," but now with AA controlling all of B, that club has gotten far busier.


I remember this well. Basically, all hub flying like RDU, ORD, LAX, SJC, etc. were handled out of B.
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:06 pm

AAtakeMeAway wrote:
airplanedaj wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
BTW - is there a historical reason the B Admirals Club is way down at the end of B rather than towards the middle of the terminal? It's a hike from there to the north end of B!


I think before Terminal D was built, the north side of B was used for International Ops, while the south side of B was Eagle Ops, combined with a remote concourse north of A, hence the location.


Kind of. This is how I remember when AA originally expanded to B in the late 90's:
Low/South B gates was AA mainline, the rest was all of the non-AA/DL carriers, including foreign flag.
E was pretty much all DL (I believe Northwest and Air Train were also in there)
American Eagle was in the "A2" satellite that is now General Aviation.

SO, at the time AA expended to B, the Admirals Club was centrally located for AA.


Ya. Back in the day, before D was built, all DL flights were handled out of E, and there was also an FIS facility at E to handle DL INTL flights (like FRA, MEX briefly) and AM flights (MEX, ZIH, CUN, etc). AF also used it for the summer of 2001 in which they flew DFW-CDG.

Meanwhile, NW moved over to E from B in 1998 to accommodate the construction of the B connector to A/C. Virtually every carrier shifted down midway through B (AC, UA, CO, HP, YX, US) while LH, BA, KE and JL operated out of the widebody gates (21-23, I believe). Terminal B was Terminal 2W at the time.

After NW moved over to E, eventually AirTran came too, then CO when it joined SkyTeam. CO moved back to B a few years later when it joined Star. When DL "de-hubbed" DFW, there was a huge incentive for airlines to fill the void at E, and AirTran expanded a few more gates. Then, AA caused FL to dismantle its DFW "focus city." A few more airlines came along, like Spirit and Alaska, and over the years, everyone moved over to E, except for United. UA finally joined E close to its merger with CO.
 
blink182
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:10 pm

airplanedaj wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
BTW - is there a historical reason the B Admirals Club is way down at the end of B rather than towards the middle of the terminal? It's a hike from there to the north end of B!


I think before Terminal D was built, the north side of B was used for International Ops, while the south side of B was Eagle Ops, combined with a remote concourse north of A, hence the location.


Commavia explained the Admirals Club perfectly as I remember it--located right in the middle of AA's presence in B at the time(8-10 gates for places like ORD and SJC that were high O&D AA stations).That's also why there's a walkway from that part of the terminal to C. That club was never meant to serve those int'l flights in B, however, which had its own unaffiliated lounge long before AA moved into B. AA and DL housed their int'l ops in A and E, respectively, along with a few other int'l carriers. Eagle moved over to the south side of B later in a switch with AA, but I'm not sure exactly when--perhaps after D opened?

commavia wrote:
I think that, as much as anything else, is why AA is now using E gates for overflow - because during the banks, A/B/C/D just do not have enough gates. And barring an economic cataclysm, this challenge is likely to persist because, I suspect, AA's is going to keep growing at DFW.

I've never seen any AA literature that references a presence in E, which says to me they likely aren't pleased with the situation either. It's too late now, but in hindsight AA should have brokered a deal with the users of the north end of E to swap gates. It was suggested awhile ago here that AA is holdling those gates in order to deter competitors from expanding. If AA needed the capacity, they could set up hard stands off of A. But all in all, I think we're witnessing some of the demonstrated need for F, in whatever shape it may appear.
 
atl100million
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:20 pm

While AA probably could fill more gates, it is not certain that it really is worth doing so esp. since the gates that seem to be “up for grabs” are the E satellite gates.

There might be some airlines that have leases which would allow DFW to move them but the airport not only can’t give even a majority of the available gates to AA at the expense of having them available for new entrants but they also cannot force carriers to move just because it creates a more convenient operation for AA.

Given that Parker has said that DFW is a very expensive airport for AA to operate out of because of its design and the very spread out operation, incremental growth might not be worth it esp. since the increased capacity will almost certainly be used for connecting traffic which AA could flow over any number of other hubs, probably at lower costs. The economics of adding regional jet flights at a very distant location from the rest of AA's operation is even more difficult to justify.

Since the discussion is about the E concourse satellite gates, the chances are that DFW will have to offer lower lease prices to incentivize airlines to use them. It is also likely that some airlines told DFW before the whole renovation of E started that they wanted additional gates – and I suspect DL is one of them. They said several years ago that they wanted additional space at DFW and then later said it about ORD. Any airline that is operating close to capacity at a gate-constrained airport has to be thinking far enough in advance to start asking for resources to expand in the future. Other airlines besides DL might have also asked for more space. As noted, DFW is also required to keep enough gates available for new entrant carriers.
 
commavia
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:20 pm

IrishAyes wrote:
Ya. Back in the day, before D was built, all DL flights were handled out of E, and there was also an FIS facility at E to handle DL INTL flights (like FRA, MEX briefly) and AM flights (MEX, ZIH, CUN, etc). AF also used it for the summer of 2001 in which they flew DFW-CDG.


Yep. Pre-D, Delta and Delta-aligned partners had FIS in E in addition to AA's FIS in A and the non-hub airlines' FIS in B. That was one of the primary motivations for building D - to consolidate all the international arrivals in one, single location.

IrishAyes wrote:
LH, BA, KE and JL operated out of the widebody gates (21-23, I believe). Terminal B was Terminal 2W at the time.


The international gates in what is now B were the very highest B gates - up until the area was TRIP'd (quite recently), all of the FIS arrival spaces immediately in front of the gate areas (i.e., with escalators going downstairs, etc.) were still visible, including the very 70s-looking Braniff-orange mobile hanging from the ceiling.

blink182 wrote:
It's too late now, but in hindsight AA should have brokered a deal with the users of the north end of E to swap gates.


I'm not sure it would have made much difference. Absent a sterile walkway, a la A-C, A-B and C-D, any connection to/from E will require SkyLink, and in the scheme of things, a connection from A/B/C/D isn't going to take all that much longer if its going to low E or high E (in fact, for people traveling counter-clockwise on SkyLink from B or D, high E is closer).

blink182 wrote:
It was suggested awhile ago here that AA is holdling those gates in order to deter competitors from expanding. If AA needed the capacity, they could set up hard stands off of A.


That was suggested, but at this point, I tend to believe that AA genuinely does need the gates. It's obvious when you walk through any AA gate area at the airport these days during a bank - the terminals are swamped. I think AA really does want more gates.

blink182 wrote:
But all in all, I think we're witnessing some of the demonstrated need for F, in whatever shape it may appear.


F is going to be interesting to watch. Based on the conversation here recently, it sounds like AA and the airport are engaged in a fairly "big picture" dialogue about the long-term vision. It sounds like AA's current operations - again, the banked schedule in particular - is really stressing the facilities, even post-TRIP.
 
evank516
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:23 pm

ScottB wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Could Southwest Airlines lease gates in the DFW Terminal E Satellite Terminal in 2025 when it can start service out of DFW without having to give up gates at Dallas Love Field?


They could... but they won't. I daresay we'd likely see scheduled WN flights at LHR before we'd see scheduled WN flights (not diversions or charters) at DFW.


No, they couldn't. The Wright Compromise prohibits WN from serving DFW if they're serving DAL.
 
bob75013
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:03 pm

evank516 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
jplatts wrote:
Could Southwest Airlines lease gates in the DFW Terminal E Satellite Terminal in 2025 when it can start service out of DFW without having to give up gates at Dallas Love Field?


No, they couldn't. The Wright Compromise prohibits WN from serving DFW if they're serving DAL.


The wright compromise (thru 2024 ONLY) requires WN to give up a DAL gate for every DFW gate it picks up. WN isn't prohibited from flying out of DFW. WN can do anything it wants starting in 2025.
But as others have said - there ain't a chance in hell. With over a million residents in Collin County by 2025, McKinney International might be a different story.
 
fraspotter
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:05 pm

Slightly related but as many people on here have mentioned, even with the new "Stinger" concourse in B that there is still a gate crunch taking place for AA. Is there room to make a second "Stinger" concourse on the south side of B to mirror what was built on the north side of B? Looking at Google Earth it seems like there would be room but I'm not sure.
 
commavia
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:09 pm

fraspotter wrote:
Slightly related but as many people on here have mentioned, even with the new "Stinger" concourse in B that there is still a gate crunch taking place for AA. Is there room to make a second "Stinger" concourse on the south side of B to mirror what was built on the north side of B? Looking at Google Earth it seems like there would be room but I'm not sure.


Yes, there is room, and it was explicitly mentioned and graphically depicted in the airport's most recent update to its long-term plan. That said, again, I get the sense that something "bigger" may be going on between AA and the airport and, if that is the case, it may mean bigger/more meaningful changes beyond, and/or in place of, adding a south B stinger.
 
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jsnww81
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:29 pm

blink182 wrote:
Commavia explained the Admirals Club perfectly as I remember it--located right in the middle of AA's presence in B at the time(8-10 gates for places like ORD and SJC that were high O&D AA stations).That's also why there's a walkway from that part of the terminal to C. That club was never meant to serve those int'l flights in B, however, which had its own unaffiliated lounge long before AA moved into B. AA and DL housed their int'l ops in A and E, respectively, along with a few other int'l carriers. Eagle moved over to the south side of B later in a switch with AA, but I'm not sure exactly when--perhaps after D opened?


I remember when American began their expansion in Terminal 2W in the late 1990s. It was actually a pretty big deal and was heavily reported on when it opened. They took over the former United, Northwest and Continental gates at the south end of Terminal 2W, and built a "dogleg" with a few extra gates (which are now internationally configured). Like blink said, initially it was all mainline, operating to cities with a lot of O&D. I was going to college in Chicago at time, and the flights to both ORD and MDW always left from the new gates in B, which was pretty nice.

Eagle moved into 2W (by then renamed Terminal B) in earnest starting around 2003-04. I remember seeing ads for American Eagle at DFW touting "no more buses!" in the fall of 2004, which means they were out of the Terminal A "nub" and satellite building by then.

The process of getting everyone else out of 2W/B was well documented by others in this thread already, but United was the last holdout as they waited for club space in Terminal E. They had just moved into a new-ish club on B not long before.
 
fraspotter
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:36 pm

commavia wrote:
fraspotter wrote:
Slightly related but as many people on here have mentioned, even with the new "Stinger" concourse in B that there is still a gate crunch taking place for AA. Is there room to make a second "Stinger" concourse on the south side of B to mirror what was built on the north side of B? Looking at Google Earth it seems like there would be room but I'm not sure.


Yes, there is room, and it was explicitly mentioned and graphically depicted in the airport's most recent update to its long-term plan. That said, again, I get the sense that something "bigger" may be going on between AA and the airport and, if that is the case, it may mean bigger/more meaningful changes beyond, and/or in place of, adding a south B stinger.


Any chance of a link to that most recent long-term plan? Google keeps showing me a 2009 version and I couldn't seem to find my way around DFW's website to find what I needed.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:11 pm

airplanedaj wrote:
dfdubflyer wrote:
BTW - is there a historical reason the B Admirals Club is way down at the end of B rather than towards the middle of the terminal? It's a hike from there to the north end of B!


I think before Terminal D was built, the north side of B was used for International Ops, while the south side of B was Eagle Ops, combined with a remote concourse north of A, hence the location.


Yes it was. Even back when it was still called 2E, post-BN. Saw some interesting a/c back then not normally associated with DFW - NZ/TE 747, TG 747, DE 744, among others.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:50 pm

stevend08 wrote:
AA777223 wrote:
What will happen to the United Club there? It is underground in the walkway to the satellite, on the satellite side, if I remember correctly. Will it be moved, or will they shut it down altogether, as DFW isn't a big station for them these post-consolidation days?


The United Club will be moved back to its original spot near E7. Not sure when that move will happen or if it has happened. At our preview on Monday they didn't give us much of a schedule.

Did the temporary United Club go into the same space that DL used for its temporary Sky Club when their gates on E were going through TRIP? I was in there a few times in early 2015 when the temp Sky Club was there in the lower level of the E Satellite connector. It was kind of a bunker-like facility but it worked for the time but was far too small during peak times.
 
blink182
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:47 am

atl100million wrote:
While AA probably could fill more gates, it is not certain that it really is worth doing so esp. since the gates that seem to be “up for grabs” are the E satellite gates.

There might be some airlines that have leases which would allow DFW to move them but the airport not only can’t give even a majority of the available gates to AA at the expense of having them available for new entrants but they also cannot force carriers to move just because it creates a more convenient operation for AA.

Given that Parker has said that DFW is a very expensive airport for AA to operate out of because of its design and the very spread out operation, incremental growth might not be worth it esp. since the increased capacity will almost certainly be used for connecting traffic which AA could flow over any number of other hubs, probably at lower costs. The economics of adding regional jet flights at a very distant location from the rest of AA's operation is even more difficult to justify.

Since the discussion is about the E concourse satellite gates, the chances are that DFW will have to offer lower lease prices to incentivize airlines to use them. It is also likely that some airlines told DFW before the whole renovation of E started that they wanted additional gates – and I suspect DL is one of them. They said several years ago that they wanted additional space at DFW and then later said it about ORD. Any airline that is operating close to capacity at a gate-constrained airport has to be thinking far enough in advance to start asking for resources to expand in the future. Other airlines besides DL might have also asked for more space. As noted, DFW is also required to keep enough gates available for new entrant carriers.


Agree that DFW would have to lower gate fees to use the E satellite, which is why I'm with those who believe it would make for a great LCC terminal with a pay-in lounge in the current lounge space: it frees up extra gates for UA and DL to expand while giving NK and F9 a break on costs. I don't know whether DFW is 'required' to keep enough gates available for anyone, however, they know they have to if they want to keep attracting new service with those incentives. As D gets more crowded, I wonder whether even EY might shift to A or E in the future given that their customers pre-clear immigration in AUH. Before I get flamed, it's just a hypothesis or suggestion.

Regarding Parker's comments on DFW's costs, I have no grouds to counter his claims that DFW might be a more expensive airport to operate from, but his actions speak louder than his words. Despite his complaints, AA continues to add routes that could never be locally sustained, and he's been around AA long enough to understand that this is now his airline, not an airline he inherited. The DFW hub is his, not Horton's. Either pax are willing to pay more to connect through DFW (doubtful), or Parker knows he can't replicate some of the key components of the DFW hub anywhere else.

jsnww81 wrote:
I was going to college in Chicago at time, and the flights to both ORD and MDW always left from the new gates in B, which was pretty nice.

Didn't AA have a dedicated ORD gate in B? B6(the gate, not the airline) seems to ring a bell for some strange reason; at one point I remember a screen playing scenes of Chicago, back when Chicago was AA's main gateway to Europe.

commavia wrote:
The international gates in what is now B were the very highest B gates - up until the area was TRIP'd (quite recently), all of the FIS arrival spaces immediately in front of the gate areas (i.e., with escalators going downstairs, etc.) were still visible, including the very 70s-looking Braniff-orange mobile hanging from the ceiling.

One of the BN fixed 747 gates stuck around well into the 00's. It may not have been removed until Eagle took over the entire terminal.

commavia wrote:
It sounds like AA's current operations - again, the banked schedule in particular - is really stressing the facilities, even post-TRIP.

AA's bank structure at DFW has ebbed and flowed with different CEOs, like DL's liveries did for a time with each CEO. I hope DFW planners accounted for variability in AA's scheduling patterns--there's no telling what AA's structure will look like in five or ten years, and the airport would be foolish to spend billions on a new unless it's abundantly clear that AA and others need more space and nobody can shift around any more.
 
stevend08
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:47 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
stevend08 wrote:
AA777223 wrote:
What will happen to the United Club there? It is underground in the walkway to the satellite, on the satellite side, if I remember correctly. Will it be moved, or will they shut it down altogether, as DFW isn't a big station for them these post-consolidation days?


The United Club will be moved back to its original spot near E7. Not sure when that move will happen or if it has happened. At our preview on Monday they didn't give us much of a schedule.

Did the temporary United Club go into the same space that DL used for its temporary Sky Club when their gates on E were going through TRIP? I was in there a few times in early 2015 when the temp Sky Club was there in the lower level of the E Satellite connector. It was kind of a bunker-like facility but it worked for the time but was far too small during peak times.


Yes it was moved to the weird bunker spot. Although it was small, I personally liked it because it was a cool feeling to see planes taxing above you.
 
tmu101
Posts: 202
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:35 am

bob75013 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
ScottB wrote:

No, they couldn't. The Wright Compromise prohibits WN from serving DFW if they're serving DAL.


The wright compromise (thru 2024 ONLY) requires WN to give up a DAL gate for every DFW gate it picks up. WN isn't prohibited from flying out of DFW. WN can do anything it wants starting in 2025.
But as others have said - there ain't a chance in hell. With over a million residents in Collin County by 2025, McKinney International might be a different story.


Sure would love it if SWA started a small operation out of Meacham or AFW to serve the western half of the Metroplex. I pass Meacham and AFW everyday from work and it would be real convenient to fly from there. As it stands I've never flown SWA because it is too inconvenient to trek on over to Love when I would pass DFW in the process. Personal choice i know. Would be cool to see them or any airline out of Meacham or AFW. Seems SWA could really dominate the Metroplex if they flew from one of the western Metroplex airfields in addition to Love (if they never choose to fly from DFW that is).
 
evank516
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:51 am

bob75013 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
ScottB wrote:

No, they couldn't. The Wright Compromise prohibits WN from serving DFW if they're serving DAL.


The wright compromise (thru 2024 ONLY) requires WN to give up a DAL gate for every DFW gate it picks up. WN isn't prohibited from flying out of DFW. WN can do anything it wants starting in 2025.
But as others have said - there ain't a chance in hell. With over a million residents in Collin County by 2025, McKinney International might be a different story.


I stand corrected. I guess I misread the agreement.
 
atl100million
Posts: 445
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:54 pm

DFW and every other US airport that receives federal airport improvement funds must maintain a portion of its gates for new entrant carriers or those that do not have leases. Airports cannot lease out every available gate.

VX complained to the City of Chicago that it could not get gates and ultimately got them in the international terminal. DL is still in the midst of a legal battle with the City of Dallas regarding WN’s desire to push Delta out of DAL as a result of all of the gates being put under lease. While the case is still ongoing, DL is still at DAL and it is doubtful they will be forced to leave the longer the case drags on.

WN is unlikely to start DFW service. They could add service to another Metroplex airport but they are most likely to request – and win – approval to add international flights from Love Field using their same number of flights/gates – and in my opinion they will win -once all legal restraints on DAL/DFW flights end. DAL likely won’t ever add gates and WN has locked up the vast majority of the gates but there is no impact to anyone by WN using some of its existing flights to fly to near international such as MEX, CUN etc vs. domestic flights.

As for terminal E at DFW, the satellite gates are the ones available and it is unlikely that AA can justify moving its E concourse regional operation out there. DFW might succeed at getting a few carriers to move but the E concourse is where DFW is able to fulfill its federal obligations to make gates available for new entrant carriers.

American can’t take so many gates that DFW has or very few common use gates. It is still very costly and inefficient to operate a small operation in terminal E separated from every other part of AA’s operation and it becomes even more inefficient given that the flights are on regional jets which means fewer passengers are boarded per gate.
As for AA growing at DFW, adding new destinations is indeed part of what strengthens the hub. But there are fewer and fewer additional cities that AA can add and each incremental departure to the same city adds less local revenue – which is the only goal that AA cannot duplicate by routing those flights elsewhere on its system.
Further, as commavia notes, AA is in talks w/ DFW about a major rethinking of DFW’s terminal complex so that it becomes more efficient on a long-term basis. AA might create more inefficiency on a short-term basis by flying more flights to the same destinations from the E concourse but I doubt that the economics of doing so are very favorable for doing so.

My guess is that not all gates at the E concourse will be fully used for a couple years and that is not an entirely bad thing.
 
AmericanHeavy
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:50 pm

fraspotter wrote:
Any chance of a link to that most recent long-term plan? Google keeps showing me a 2009 version and I couldn't seem to find my way around DFW's website to find what I needed.


2014
Image
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:38 pm

commavia wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
Ya. Back in the day, before D was built, all DL flights were handled out of E, and there was also an FIS facility at E to handle DL INTL flights (like FRA, MEX briefly) and AM flights (MEX, ZIH, CUN, etc). AF also used it for the summer of 2001 in which they flew DFW-CDG.


Yep. Pre-D, Delta and Delta-aligned partners had FIS in E in addition to AA's FIS in A and the non-hub airlines' FIS in B. That was one of the primary motivations for building D - to consolidate all the international arrivals in one, single location..


This FIS opened in 1985, when DL began DFW-FRA. Air Canada and British Caledonian moved there from 2W when it opened, so their passengers could have same terminal connections with DL.
 
mhkansan
Topic Author
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:54 am

atl100million wrote:
American can’t take so many gates that DFW has or very few common use gates. It is still very costly and inefficient to operate a small operation in terminal E separated from every other part of AA’s operation and it becomes even more inefficient given that the flights are on regional jets which means fewer passengers are boarded per gate.
As for AA growing at DFW, adding new destinations is indeed part of what strengthens the hub. But there are fewer and fewer additional cities that AA can add and each incremental departure to the same city adds less local revenue – which is the only goal that AA cannot duplicate by routing those flights elsewhere on its system.
Further, as commavia notes, AA is in talks w/ DFW about a major rethinking of DFW’s terminal complex so that it becomes more efficient on a long-term basis. AA might create more inefficiency on a short-term basis by flying more flights to the same destinations from the E concourse but I doubt that the economics of doing so are very favorable for doing so.

My guess is that not all gates at the E concourse will be fully used for a couple years and that is not an entirely bad thing.


AA's ExpressJet operation in terminal E is about five gates and growing, and American has room for growth at DFW but regional gates are at a premium.

I agree that operating a remote, small operation at E is cost-prohibitive, but obviously it was not a cost AA could not digest as those gates were too valuable to return to the city after the merger.

It makes me wonder how long those E-satellite gates will sit empty. I just hope they don't board it up for years again. I love going over there!
 
paulsaz
Posts: 56
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:29 am

Internally AA may have announced more gates are coming at DFW and CLT. Not sure where they are coming from.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2586
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Re: DFW E Satellite Terminal - What happens now?

Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:13 pm

The E-satellite was used for diversions and irregular ops before the Termin al E renovation so I assume it will go back to being just for that.

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