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Dutchy
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KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:07 pm

Hold your horses, no KLM didn\t buy new Boeing 747-8i, they bought the PH-MPS, a former Singapore Airlines / Air India 747, converted to freighter configuration, so a 747-400BCF. It is the last remaining aircraft in Martin Air livery. The lease contract was set to expire in 2018 and now KLM decided to acquire it from the lease company, AirCastle.

So it seems that this 747 is set to remain in service for a little while longer, along with its three sister ships, the dedicated cargo 747-406F's.

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... -aircastle

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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OA940
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:48 pm

DON'T GET ME EXCITED LIKE THAT!!!
A350/CSeries = bae
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3165
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:26 pm

Do they still lease a 747 freighter from Atlas Air? They are short a frame cycling one at a time to heavy checks. mps just came back from long term maint in China.
 
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leleko747
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:38 pm

That title was... unnecessary :scratchchin:

AF/KLM group should end the "KLM Cargo" brand and focus in growing Martinair... IMHO
It would be even better if they could develop Martinair as their leisure branch, to compete with TUI and maybe pick up some Caribbean routes from KLM.
However, I might be thinking too high...
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
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Slash787
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:06 pm

How old is this plane?
 
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Channex757
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:09 pm

They could equally have bought the remaining lease out to park it. It's got the wrong engines for a start, so must be costing KLM more for support. Leasing contracts are odd at times.

There could be a final balloon payment attached or a requirement for a major overhaul prior to returning it. If it's a heavy shop visit then it might be worth KL buying the remaining lease out clear with the title as the aircraft won't be worth that much beyond scrap value at the end. The lessor won't want it either as there are plenty of 744BCFs on the market.

Whatever the story here, it is unfortunate that with asset values being so low it may well just be the case that the parent carrier and lessor have found a mutually agreeable deal to have the aircraft run up to its next shop visit hours then park it.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:15 pm

The plane is 27 years old. Sounds like an excellent candidate for spare part donor :stirthepot:
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:34 pm

As I've said here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=597241&p=19756323#p19756323

There's a bit more to this story:
- Lease was set to expire in 2018 (as OP stated)
- Aircastle wanted to reduce their portfolio of freighters
- Martinair needs at least 4 freighters to operate profitably.
- Martinair needs at least one aircraft to keep their Air Operators Certificate (AOC).
- PH-MPS came back from a D-check in Xiamen several months ago; so she probably has several years left in service.
- KLM has bought another 2 747-400BCF's in 2016 (PH-MPP and -MPQ) both stored at Teruel since August 2013; both are to be scrapped.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:50 pm

OA940 wrote:
DON'T GET ME EXCITED LIKE THAT!!!


Sorry, could not resist :lol:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:52 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
As I've said here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=597241&p=19756323#p19756323

There's a bit more to this story:
- Lease was set to expire in 2018 (as OP stated)
- Aircastle wanted to reduce their portfolio of freighters
- Martinair needs at least 4 freighters to operate profitably.
- Martinair needs at least one aircraft to keep their Air Operators Certificate (AOC).
- PH-MPS came back from a D-check in Xiamen several months ago; so she probably has several years left in service.
- KLM has bought another 2 747-400BCF's in 2016 (PH-MPP and -MPQ) both stored at Teruel since August 2013; both are to be scrapped.


Thanks for this information, so do you think MPS will end up being scrapped, or do you think it will remain in the fleet for the foreseeable future now it has its D-check.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Iemand91 wrote:
As I've said here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=597241&p=19756323#p19756323

There's a bit more to this story:
- Lease was set to expire in 2018 (as OP stated)
- Aircastle wanted to reduce their portfolio of freighters
- Martinair needs at least 4 freighters to operate profitably.
- Martinair needs at least one aircraft to keep their Air Operators Certificate (AOC).
- PH-MPS came back from a D-check in Xiamen several months ago; so she probably has several years left in service.
- KLM has bought another 2 747-400BCF's in 2016 (PH-MPP and -MPQ) both stored at Teruel since August 2013; both are to be scrapped.


Thanks for this information, so do you think MPS will end up being scrapped, or do you think it will remain in the fleet for the foreseeable future now it has its D-check.

I don't think it would make much sense to use a freighter just fresh from a (expensive) D-check for parts.

I heard the KLM pax 747-400's stored/scrapped at Teruel are used for parts, maybe those 2 Martinair freighters as well.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
76er
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:28 am

b747400erf wrote:
Do they still lease a 747 freighter from Atlas Air? They are short a frame cycling one at a time to heavy checks. mps just came back from long term maint in China.


Nope, the Atlas wetlease ended a few weeks ago after the D-check for the BCF and subsequent C-check for an ERF were completed.
MPS will stick around for a while. Oh well, at least until AFKL changes its mind again on what to do with MP, probably when the inevitable next crisis hits. MP's staff numbers have dwindled to just under 100, all pilots. Remaining support staff is now on a KL-contract.
 
Joost
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
Thanks for this information, so do you think MPS will end up being scrapped, or do you think it will remain in the fleet for the foreseeable future now it has its D-check.


Bar exceptional circumstances, the aircraft will fly as a freighter until the next D-check is due, so 5-6 years. Of course, as the oldest and least efficient aircraft in the KLM/Martinair Cargo fleet, it will be the first aircraft to put on reserve when demand goes down.

KarelXWB wrote:
The plane is 27 years old. Sounds like an excellent candidate for spare part donor

It's rather that the MPP and MPQ in Teruel will supply the spare parts for MPS.
 
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747classic
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:54 am

The "black swan" of the KLM 744 fleet, the only one powered by PW4000's ( type not serviced by the AF/KL engineshop ) .
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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lapper
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:10 pm

Slash787 wrote:
How old is this plane?


Is it that difficult to Google the information? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=PH-MPS
 
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leleko747
Posts: 447
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:55 pm

My goodness, AF/KLM really killed off the poor Martinair.
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3165
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:31 pm

76er wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Do they still lease a 747 freighter from Atlas Air? They are short a frame cycling one at a time to heavy checks. mps just came back from long term maint in China.


Nope, the Atlas wetlease ended a few weeks ago after the D-check for the BCF and subsequent C-check for an ERF were completed.
MPS will stick around for a while. Oh well, at least until AFKL changes its mind again on what to do with MP, probably when the inevitable next crisis hits. MP's staff numbers have dwindled to just under 100, all pilots. Remaining support staff is now on a KL-contract.

In the old thread someone said all 3 of the ERF's need C checks and Atlas would provide lift until the end of the year. My memory at my age is failing me though.
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:12 pm

Does anyone know if they plan on re painting their current 744ERF freighters? Last I saw they all looked like they could use a repaint.
 
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LamboAston
Posts: 630
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:17 am

747classic wrote:
The "black swan" of the KLM 744 fleet, the only one powered by PW4000's ( type not serviced by the AF/KL engineshop ) .

Is it an option to swap the engines to the other ones used by KL?
AS350, B733/4/7/8, B744/8, B762/3, B77E/L/W, B789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A346, A380, AT73/5/6, Q300, Q400, CR2/7, E190, S340, B1900C/D, E110 (E for epic)
NZ, EK, QF, SQ, UA, US, CO, FZ, FR, U2, BA, VA, VS, MH, EI, EY, LH, EN, NM, TG, GZ
 
76er
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:25 am

No paint plans and no, it's not possible to swap engine types on a 744.
 
Brokkenpiloot
Posts: 10
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:59 am

leleko747 wrote:
That title was... unnecessary :scratchchin:

AF/KLM group should end the "KLM Cargo" brand and focus in growing Martinair... IMHO
It would be even better if they could develop Martinair as their leisure branch, to compete with TUI and maybe pick up some Caribbean routes from KLM.
However, I might be thinking too high...


Martinair was a leisure branch but AFKL killed it few years back. Most routes are now served with KL mainline. If AFKL would ever restart longhaul leisureflights it will be done by Transavia. Transavia is a much stronger brand in the Netherlands.
 
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747classic
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Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:10 am

76er wrote:
No paint plans and no, it's not possible to swap engine types on a 744.


For the 744 no masterchange for any engine type conversion excists. (also not for PW4000 to GE CF6-80C2 )

The only 747 masterchange for an engine conversion (PW JT9D to GE CF6-50) was certified and actual performed at the first two E-4A (747-200) aircraft for the USAF.

Later (in 1999) also 2 Atlas air 747-200's, powered by PW JT9D engines were also re-engined with the same (already payed for) masterchange. The "new" CF6-50 engines came from 747SR aircraft that were bought from ANA !!!

L/N 202, msn. 20682, 747-E4A, 73-1776, USAF
L/N 203, msn. 20683, 747-E4A, 73-1677, USAF
L/N 245, msn. 20887, 747-228F, N809MC, Atlas Air
L/N 253, msn. 21048, 747-212SF, N808MC, Atlas Air.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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leleko747
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:16 pm

Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:39 pm

SXDFC wrote:
Does anyone know if they plan on re painting their current 744ERF freighters? Last I saw they all looked like they could use a repaint.


Would be really cool if they could be painted into Martinair colors instead of KLM Cargo...
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
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Iemand91
Posts: 654
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:52 pm

747classic wrote:
76er wrote:
No paint plans and no, it's not possible to swap engine types on a 744.


For the 744 no masterchange for any engine type conversion excists. (also not for PW4000 to GE CF6-80C2 )

The only 747 masterchange for an engine conversion (PW JT9D to GE CF6-50) was certified and actual performed at the first two E-4A (747-200) aircraft for the USAF.

Later (in 1999) also 2 Atlas air 747-200's, powered by PW JT9D engines were also re-engined with the same (already payed for) masterchange. The "new" CF6-50 engines came from 747SR aircraft that were bought from ANA !!!

L/N 202, msn. 20682, 747-E4A, 73-1776, USAF
L/N 203, msn. 20683, 747-E4A, 73-1677, USAF
L/N 245, msn. 20887, 747-228F, N809MC, Atlas Air
L/N 253, msn. 21048, 747-212SF, N808MC, Atlas Air.

So if I understand correctly; these 4 aircraft are the only 747's ever to have received a different type of engine?
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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747classic
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: KLM bought a 747!

Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:19 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
So if I understand correctly; these 4 aircraft are the only 747's ever to have received a different type of engine?


Correct, these four airframes are the only 747's that were re-engined with an engine from another manufacturer.

However, the first re-engined 747 was L/N 1, msn. 20235, the 747-121 prototype, this airframe has been temporally been re-engined with GE CF6-50D engines for certification of the CF6-50/747 combination. Thereafter she has been re-engined back to the original installed PW JT9D series.
This first flight of L/N1 with GE CF6-50D engines was performed at June 26 1973.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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747classic
Posts: 3223
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: KLM bought a 747!

Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:14 pm

747classic wrote:

However, the first re-engined 747 was L/N 1, msn. 20235, the 747-121 prototype, this airframe has been temporally been re-engined with GE CF6-50D engines for certification of the CF6-50/747 combination. Thereafter she has been re-engined back to the original installed PW JT9D series.
This first flight of L/N1 with GE CF6-50D engines was performed at June 26 1973.


See : https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 01938.html
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4813
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: KLM bought a 747!

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:05 pm

leleko747 wrote:
Would be really cool if they could be painted into Martinair colors instead of KLM Cargo...

Disagree, surely time to simplify. new KLM colours surely when they come up for a repaint methinks!

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