Kamila88
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ATH - North American Routes

Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:39 am

Hi,

This is my first post. I was just wondering does anyone have any stats on how the North American Routes out of ATH are doing this summer?
 
Luisvalero
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:49 pm

I think Aegean should start ATH-JFK, ATH-ORD or ATH-YYZ, if it had the proper aircraft such as B788 or A332.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:21 pm

Luisvalero wrote:
I think Aegean should start ATH-JFK, ATH-ORD or ATH-YYZ, if it had the proper aircraft such as B788 or A332.


It's been said over and over and time and again Aegean wants nothing to do with Trans-Atlantic travel, or long haul in general.


That being said, I'd love to see the numbers Emirates, United, Delta, Air Canada, Air Transat and AA are racking up. Anyone have em?
 
Kamila88
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:50 pm

If Delta can support double daily or Air Canada daily from YYZ in the summer there must be a good market
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:09 am

Kamila88 wrote:
If Delta can support double daily or Air Canada daily from YYZ in the summer there must be a good market

But the market may not be able to support more. There is a thing called equilibrium.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:50 am

I've said it on here before. I'm surprised DY isn't looking into long haul from ATH especially to ORD and BOS.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
Luxair747SP
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:26 am

Its a tough market out of ATH.
The yields are not the highest as it is a lot of VFR traffic and it even to the East Coast a long flight.
A3 is happy enough to feed LH and other star alliance partners through central Europe. Especially the FRA flight has always a lot of US connections on it.
 
wenders825
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:04 am

I could see AA starting ORD-ATH. surprised they didn't.
 
worldranger
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:36 am

The EK ATH-EWR loads have been very strong this summer, pretty much full
 
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OA940
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:05 am

Greece in general gets really packed skies during the summer, and even on the ground. In July when I'm walking in downtown Athens I see more tourists than locals. There is demand to at least 5 American cities (New York, Chicago - both over 1mil. Greeks - Miami, LA and SFO or Vegas), Canada (which has it's own fair share of Greeks, and Australia could all support at least daily flights to Greece year round. And Russians and the Chinese love Greece. A Greek hybrid carrier (Aegean style) could do wonders for Greeks overseas. With a 789 or a 359 we could easily have an airline with 15-25 frames flying 2x daily to JFK, ORD, YYZ and YUL, daily to MIA, LAX, SFO, LAS and YVR, and 2-3 daily to PEK, PVG, CUN and HKG, with a connecting flight at least daily to SYD, MEL, BNE, PER and AKL. Other Asian cities like Tokyo, Singapore, KL, Bangkok etc. could handle traffic as well. With a competitive product (32'' pitch Economy, Premium Economy at 40'', direct aisle access fully flat Business Class) could draw pax from other Balkan countries as well. Imo Greece could become a nice hub for a connecting carrier as well. Of course this is easier said than done, but clearly there is quite the market, and it is massively underserved. DY could also do WONDERS with an ATH hub. Greeks just want cheap flights. They don't care otherwise. If a LHLC airline came here we would be all over that. Especially the Greeks living overseas.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
Cointrin330
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:22 am

Highly seasonal market, with traffic dropping off steeply after the end of September. From May to September it's another story. Very high demand as Greece is a very popular destination for tourism, cruise market, etc...There are very few strong business links between the US and Greece that could support year-round service (not sure about Canada but would expect the same). Other than VFR, it's tough. Olympic, in its various iterations had year round service to JFK, ORD, and I believe YYZ when it existed.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:18 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Highly seasonal market, with traffic dropping off steeply after the end of September. From May to September it's another story. Very high demand as Greece is a very popular destination for tourism, cruise market, etc...There are very few strong business links between the US and Greece that could support year-round service (not sure about Canada but would expect the same). Other than VFR, it's tough. Olympic, in its various iterations had year round service to JFK, ORD, and I believe YYZ when it existed.

Any chance that they were able to keep ORD/JFK/YYZ year around with connections?
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
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OA260
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:56 pm

Luisvalero wrote:
I think Aegean should start ATH-JFK, ATH-ORD or ATH-YYZ, if it had the proper aircraft such as B788 or A332.


Not unless they want to collapse the company ! A3 is best to keep doing what they do well and that is a good European operation and even that is challenging especially November to March.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:16 pm

OA940 wrote:
Greece in general gets really packed skies during the summer, and even on the ground. In July when I'm walking in downtown Athens I see more tourists than locals. There is demand to at least 5 American cities (New York, Chicago - both over 1mil. Greeks - Miami, LA and SFO or Vegas), Canada (which has it's own fair share of Greeks, and Australia could all support at least daily flights to Greece year round. And Russians and the Chinese love Greece. A Greek hybrid carrier (Aegean style) could do wonders for Greeks overseas. With a 789 or a 359 we could easily have an airline with 15-25 frames flying 2x daily to JFK, ORD, YYZ and YUL, daily to MIA, LAX, SFO, LAS and YVR, and 2-3 daily to PEK, PVG, CUN and HKG, with a connecting flight at least daily to SYD, MEL, BNE, PER and AKL. Other Asian cities like Tokyo, Singapore, KL, Bangkok etc. could handle traffic as well. With a competitive product (32'' pitch Economy, Premium Economy at 40'', direct aisle access fully flat Business Class) could draw pax from other Balkan countries as well. Imo Greece could become a nice hub for a connecting carrier as well. Of course this is easier said than done, but clearly there is quite the market, and it is massively underserved. DY could also do WONDERS with an ATH hub. Greeks just want cheap flights. They don't care otherwise. If a LHLC airline came here we would be all over that. Especially the Greeks living overseas.



Like we've all said, the loads are there in Summers. The yield per seat on the other hand, is pure trash. After September, no airline in their right mind would dare fly to ATH from North America (minus Emirates tag-on from DXB). To pull off year round service, a carrier (especially if based in either country) needs to have the J class booking full just to justify the cost of the trip. Fill up Biz class with corporate contracts and you've got it made, ATH however really doesn't have much of the way in that regards, and what big corporate contracts are are already taken up mainly by LH, and BA. Aegean feeds LH and they are happy to do so. We're lucky to have the service we have now as it is.
 
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mercure1
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:31 pm

To show the extreme nature of seasonality in Greece, the demand during a peak month(July) is more than 6 times that of the lowest month(Feb). Greece is hardly a steady market with ongoing continual relative demand.

In addition like others mentioned the demand for traffic to Greece from the Americas is driven by all low yield traffic - tourist, cruise ship clients, and ethnic diaspora. There is minor premium or corporate demand in the market.
The market if anything looks more like being optimal for charter service than scheduled service.

I also agree that A3 would be suicidal if it ventured away from its roots into an expensive longhaul adventure across Atlantic.
mercure f-wtcc
 
ryan78
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:04 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
It's been said over and over and time and again Aegean wants nothing to do with Trans-Atlantic travel, or long haul in general.
That being said, I'd love to see the numbers Emirates, United, Delta, Air Canada, Air Transat and AA are racking up. Anyone have em?


Air Transat has been pulling pretty steady loads this year, they upped frequencies in the peak between June and July to x4 weekly from both YYZ and YUL. The YUL flights are always chalk full and the YYZ flights just a handful of open seats. Load factors till the end of the month are roughly 80-85% outbound from both YYZ and YUL and all the inbound flights are 100% full, literally 345 pax for both YYZ and YUL at x2 weekly each until the end of the month. Load factors drop considerably in the middle of September though, currently averaging mid 60's outbound and low 70's inbound.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:08 pm

Even much much larger Italian markets like Rome and Milan can't sustain their U.S. services year round, so Athens certainly wont.

Like others mentioned, Aegean should steer clear of such adventures.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
OlympicATH
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:14 pm

Yes ATH is a very seasonal market but over the cycle there is demand for NA year round. The issue is that demand generating in Greece (i.e. Greece based Greeks) has collapsed in the past few years with the crisis and austerity, making seasonality worse. For decades OA used to fly to NA in the winter (4/5 weekly JFK, plus +2/3 weekly BOS/YYZ/YUL) and so did DL (4/5 per week IIRC) and TWA before that. The CO flight to EWR (now UA) was also year round when it was launched. Demand patterns just changed with the crisis but that will change gradually as the local economy recovers. Plus I'm sure EK did their homework before launching a daily year round flight.

NYC and Canada are now fairly well covered in the summer (NYC-ATH was 4 daily this summer, AC has one daily each to YYZ and YUL). Last year (before the EK flight was launched), there were 131k indirect passengers between ATH and NYC, which proves the need for a year round flight though.

ORD, BOS and also IAD remain white spots from ATH and are bound to happen sooner or later. Demand to/from the West Coast is also there but direct flights are probably unlikely. Last year's stats (indirect pax 2016 to/from ATH):
Boston 65k
Chicago 65k
DC 53k
Los Angeles 51k
San Francisco 45k

While A3 is focusing on medium haul for now, they have hinted at long haul for a while. However they need several stars to be aligned before they pull the trigger:
-Recovery of domestic demand
-Build-up of the network (particularly eastbound) to support connections; in particular TLV, BEY, CAI are being gradually built up to 2-3 daily flights
-Right a/c at the right price

Just my 2c.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:36 pm

OlympicATH wrote:
Yes ATH is a very seasonal market but over the cycle there is demand for NA year round. The issue is that demand generating in Greece (i.e. Greece based Greeks) has collapsed in the past few years with the crisis and austerity, making seasonality worse. For decades OA used to fly to NA in the winter (4/5 weekly JFK, plus +2/3 weekly BOS/YYZ/YUL) and so did DL (4/5 per week IIRC) and TWA before that. The CO flight to EWR (now UA) was also year round when it was launched. Demand patterns just changed with the crisis but that will change gradually as the local economy recovers. Plus I'm sure EK did their homework before launching a daily year round flight.

NYC and Canada are now fairly well covered in the summer (NYC-ATH was 4 daily this summer, AC has one daily each to YYZ and YUL). Last year (before the EK flight was launched), there were 131k indirect passengers between ATH and NYC, which proves the need for a year round flight though.

ORD, BOS and also IAD remain white spots from ATH and are bound to happen sooner or later. Demand to/from the West Coast is also there but direct flights are probably unlikely. Last year's stats (indirect pax 2016 to/from ATH):
Boston 65k
Chicago 65k
DC 53k
Los Angeles 51k
San Francisco 45k

While A3 is focusing on medium haul for now, they have hinted at long haul for a while. However they need several stars to be aligned before they pull the trigger:
-Recovery of domestic demand
-Build-up of the network (particularly eastbound) to support connections; in particular TLV, BEY, CAI are being gradually built up to 2-3 daily flights
-Right a/c at the right price

Just my 2c.



Plus, EK's service is just an add-on to one of their DXB-ATH services, so that helps too. Their fares remain pretty dirt cheap too compared to the others.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:03 pm

OA940 wrote:
Greece in general gets really packed skies during the summer, and even on the ground. In July when I'm walking in downtown Athens I see more tourists than locals. There is demand to at least 5 American cities (New York, Chicago - both over 1mil. Greeks - Miami, LA and SFO or Vegas), Canada (which has it's own fair share of Greeks, and Australia could all support at least daily flights to Greece year round. And Russians and the Chinese love Greece. A Greek hybrid carrier (Aegean style) could do wonders for Greeks overseas. With a 789 or a 359 we could easily have an airline with 15-25 frames flying 2x daily to JFK, ORD, YYZ and YUL, daily to MIA, LAX, SFO, LAS and YVR, and 2-3 daily to PEK, PVG, CUN and HKG, with a connecting flight at least daily to SYD, MEL, BNE, PER and AKL. Other Asian cities like Tokyo, Singapore, KL, Bangkok etc. could handle traffic as well. With a competitive product (32'' pitch Economy, Premium Economy at 40'', direct aisle access fully flat Business Class) could draw pax from other Balkan countries as well. Imo Greece could become a nice hub for a connecting carrier as well. Of course this is easier said than done, but clearly there is quite the market, and it is massively underserved. DY could also do WONDERS with an ATH hub. Greeks just want cheap flights. They don't care otherwise. If a LHLC airline came here we would be all over that. Especially the Greeks living overseas.

"Gimme a word - any word - and I show you how the root of that word is Greek." In reference to your post, that word is "hybris". And the two first letters of your user name gives the exact example of somebody who tried some of what you describe, and failed dramatically. 2-3 daily ATH-PVG? ATH-CUN? Daily ATH-PER? ATH-AKL? Not even hybris is enough to describe the madness in that. Put on your kimono and have another think about it...
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:14 pm

OA940 wrote:
Greece in general gets really packed skies during the summer, and even on the ground. In July when I'm walking in downtown Athens I see more tourists than locals. There is demand to at least 5 American cities (New York, Chicago - both over 1mil. Greeks - Miami, LA and SFO or Vegas), Canada (which has it's own fair share of Greeks, and Australia could all support at least daily flights to Greece year round. And Russians and the Chinese love Greece. A Greek hybrid carrier (Aegean style) could do wonders for Greeks overseas. With a 789 or a 359 we could easily have an airline with 15-25 frames flying 2x daily to JFK, ORD, YYZ and YUL, daily to MIA, LAX, SFO, LAS and YVR, and 2-3 daily to PEK, PVG, CUN and HKG, with a connecting flight at least daily to SYD, MEL, BNE, PER and AKL. Other Asian cities like Tokyo, Singapore, KL, Bangkok etc. could handle traffic as well. With a competitive product (32'' pitch Economy, Premium Economy at 40'', direct aisle access fully flat Business Class) could draw pax from other Balkan countries as well. Imo Greece could become a nice hub for a connecting carrier as well. Of course this is easier said than done, but clearly there is quite the market, and it is massively underserved. DY could also do WONDERS with an ATH hub. Greeks just want cheap flights. They don't care otherwise. If a LHLC airline came here we would be all over that. Especially the Greeks living overseas.


For a country that could barely afford the price of a single Cessna 172...ANY of the above is a long shot AT BEST, not to mention suicidal. The last time anyone tried to fly the Greek flag overseas was nothing but a bunch of crooks out to soak the Greeks of their money using Greek Pride, and a disaster for those that were dumb enough (Greeks they were) to give them a dime. See what happens when you let a Greek Priest in charge? :P
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:35 pm

wenders825 wrote:
I could see AA starting ORD-ATH. surprised they didn't.

The "ball was in UA's court" for the longest time, and they have not taken any action. Large Greek population, and the heart of the community a few minutes away from their headquarters......their frequent flyers and employees alike have been vocal about getting more Athens service(especially from ORD), and it has fallen on deaf ears.

With A3 is content of being the "AS of Europe", no charters in the ORD-Greece market, plus UA's indifference, it's basically AA or nothing.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:34 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
I could see AA starting ORD-ATH. surprised they didn't.

The "ball was in UA's court" for the longest time, and they have not taken any action. Large Greek population, and the heart of the community a few minutes away from their headquarters......their frequent flyers and employees alike have been vocal about getting more Athens service(especially from ORD), and it has fallen on deaf ears.

With A3 is content of being the "AS of Europe", no charters in the ORD-Greece market, plus UA's indifference, it's basically AA or nothing.


Maybe because UA is in the business of making money and not losing it?
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:49 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
I could see AA starting ORD-ATH. surprised they didn't.

The "ball was in UA's court" for the longest time, and they have not taken any action. Large Greek population, and the heart of the community a few minutes away from their headquarters......their frequent flyers and employees alike have been vocal about getting more Athens service(especially from ORD), and it has fallen on deaf ears.

With A3 is content of being the "AS of Europe", no charters in the ORD-Greece market, plus UA's indifference, it's basically AA or nothing.


Maybe because UA is in the business of making money and not losing it?


Same thing with AA. They see PHL as their leisure Europe hub, not ORD. ORD will be built with flights AA can sell J space on at higher rates, thus controlling high yield levels. PHL has become the Y class hub for trash leisure flights like PHL-ATH where their yield isnt nearly as important, but still servicing places that can make money, but not a quite the levels of say...ORD-LHR or ORD-LHR.
 
B747forever
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:33 pm

I wonder if some members that advocates US-ATH service have forgotten how far away ATH is. For instance ORD-ATH is farther than LHR-LAX, and EWR-ATH is just 500mi shorter. Why would any carrier want to tie up an airplane for +24hrs on a route that lacks meaningful J traffic?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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OA940
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:21 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Greece in general gets really packed skies during the summer, and even on the ground. In July when I'm walking in downtown Athens I see more tourists than locals. There is demand to at least 5 American cities (New York, Chicago - both over 1mil. Greeks - Miami, LA and SFO or Vegas), Canada (which has it's own fair share of Greeks, and Australia could all support at least daily flights to Greece year round. And Russians and the Chinese love Greece. A Greek hybrid carrier (Aegean style) could do wonders for Greeks overseas. With a 789 or a 359 we could easily have an airline with 15-25 frames flying 2x daily to JFK, ORD, YYZ and YUL, daily to MIA, LAX, SFO, LAS and YVR, and 2-3 daily to PEK, PVG, CUN and HKG, with a connecting flight at least daily to SYD, MEL, BNE, PER and AKL. Other Asian cities like Tokyo, Singapore, KL, Bangkok etc. could handle traffic as well. With a competitive product (32'' pitch Economy, Premium Economy at 40'', direct aisle access fully flat Business Class) could draw pax from other Balkan countries as well. Imo Greece could become a nice hub for a connecting carrier as well. Of course this is easier said than done, but clearly there is quite the market, and it is massively underserved. DY could also do WONDERS with an ATH hub. Greeks just want cheap flights. They don't care otherwise. If a LHLC airline came here we would be all over that. Especially the Greeks living overseas.


For a country that could barely afford the price of a single Cessna 172...ANY of the above is a long shot AT BEST, not to mention suicidal. The last time anyone tried to fly the Greek flag overseas was nothing but a bunch of crooks out to soak the Greeks of their money using Greek Pride, and a disaster for those that were dumb enough (Greeks they were) to give them a dime. See what happens when you let a Greek Priest in charge? :P


Well when you mix religion and airlines you are putting Jesus at the controls, and we all knew SkyGreeec was doomed. But if there is an established airline with SH routes that starts a few weekly services, then they could expand later. If OA could do it for decades with gas guzzlers then someone can with the most efficient planes on the market. Foreign airlines are going year-round to Greece (EK and CA soon), and OA had that kind of frequencies in the past. An LCC would be more suitable for us Greeks that don't have the word money or economy in our vocabulary, or at least that's what everyone else believes. Let's be real: if a pax wanted to fly between, say NYC and AYT, they would rather fly via ATH than IST or FRA or LHR if the prices were the same. You could make a connecting airline work anywhere. It's just harder in some places, but it could be done in Greece quite easily.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:31 pm

OA940 wrote:
WesternA318 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Greece in general gets really packed skies during the summer, and even on the ground. In July when I'm walking in downtown Athens I see more tourists than locals. There is demand to at least 5 American cities (New York, Chicago - both over 1mil. Greeks - Miami, LA and SFO or Vegas), Canada (which has it's own fair share of Greeks, and Australia could all support at least daily flights to Greece year round. And Russians and the Chinese love Greece. A Greek hybrid carrier (Aegean style) could do wonders for Greeks overseas. With a 789 or a 359 we could easily have an airline with 15-25 frames flying 2x daily to JFK, ORD, YYZ and YUL, daily to MIA, LAX, SFO, LAS and YVR, and 2-3 daily to PEK, PVG, CUN and HKG, with a connecting flight at least daily to SYD, MEL, BNE, PER and AKL. Other Asian cities like Tokyo, Singapore, KL, Bangkok etc. could handle traffic as well. With a competitive product (32'' pitch Economy, Premium Economy at 40'', direct aisle access fully flat Business Class) could draw pax from other Balkan countries as well. Imo Greece could become a nice hub for a connecting carrier as well. Of course this is easier said than done, but clearly there is quite the market, and it is massively underserved. DY could also do WONDERS with an ATH hub. Greeks just want cheap flights. They don't care otherwise. If a LHLC airline came here we would be all over that. Especially the Greeks living overseas.


For a country that could barely afford the price of a single Cessna 172...ANY of the above is a long shot AT BEST, not to mention suicidal. The last time anyone tried to fly the Greek flag overseas was nothing but a bunch of crooks out to soak the Greeks of their money using Greek Pride, and a disaster for those that were dumb enough (Greeks they were) to give them a dime. See what happens when you let a Greek Priest in charge? :P


Well when you mix religion and airlines you are putting Jesus at the controls, and we all knew SkyGreeec was doomed. But if there is an established airline with SH routes that starts a few weekly services, then they could expand later. If OA could do it for decades with gas guzzlers then someone can with the most efficient planes on the market. Foreign airlines are going year-round to Greece (EK and CA soon), and OA had that kind of frequencies in the past. An LCC would be more suitable for us Greeks that don't have the word money or economy in our vocabulary, or at least that's what everyone else believes. Let's be real: if a pax wanted to fly between, say NYC and AYT, they would rather fly via ATH than IST or FRA or LHR if the prices were the same. You could make a connecting airline work anywhere. It's just harder in some places, but it could be done in Greece quite easily.


Olympic HAD efficient planes, the A340's for the last decade or so of their existence and they still couldnt do it profitably. But from where I am in the States, the majority of my clients that go to Greece do it in Summer, and they usually only fly LH, Turkish, or Delta/Air France. There is LCC service to ATH and to quite a few islands, so there really is no need for more service, especially in Summer. I'll be heading there in April for a Travel Agent's Summit, and I'll ask a few questions when I'm there.
 
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OA260
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:47 pm

OA940 wrote:
If OA could do it for decades with gas guzzlers then someone can with the most efficient planes on the market. .


Bad example. OA did it because it was state controlled and losses were never an issue. The last 10 years of the JFK route was major loss making due to corruption and mismanagement. That was before the crisis and the economic situation the country is in now.
 
CHI2DFW
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:52 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
I could see AA starting ORD-ATH. surprised they didn't.

The "ball was in UA's court" for the longest time, and they have not taken any action. Large Greek population, and the heart of the community a few minutes away from their headquarters......their frequent flyers and employees alike have been vocal about getting more Athens service(especially from ORD), and it has fallen on deaf ears.

With A3 is content of being the "AS of Europe", no charters in the ORD-Greece market, plus UA's indifference, it's basically AA or nothing.


ORD-ATH can easily fill a low-yielding plane. Maybe an ME3 will run this on a high-density flight and piss off UA and AA.
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:08 am

CHI2DFW wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
I could see AA starting ORD-ATH. surprised they didn't.

The "ball was in UA's court" for the longest time, and they have not taken any action. Large Greek population, and the heart of the community a few minutes away from their headquarters......their frequent flyers and employees alike have been vocal about getting more Athens service(especially from ORD), and it has fallen on deaf ears.

With A3 is content of being the "AS of Europe", no charters in the ORD-Greece market, plus UA's indifference, it's basically AA or nothing.


ORD-ATH can easily fill a low-yielding plane. Maybe an ME3 will run this on a high-density flight and piss off UA and AA.

Actually, ORD is a different market than the traditional NYC bases. The "product" and yield is a bit different.

There are a number of medium and small markets that currently need two plane changes to get to ATH.....that don't have flights to the NYC airports or PHL. Plus there are those who only have trips to LGA, which is technically a non-connection, to get to DL/JFK or UA/EWR. Many of these markets DO have flights into ORD, though.

On a local level, Chicago is also different than NYC. There is a proliferation of "ethnic" travel agencies in metro NYC, that buy huge blocks of tickets, and get a bulk discount. Doesn't happen in Chicago. NYC airports also have options---just about every imaginable combination of connections----and they are, of course, cheaper than nonstop. Going through SVO, to cite one example, is an option from JFK....but not from ORD.

And charter flights to Greece, for the budget-minded people, are non-existent from ORD, too.

Most people also are not staying in Athens anyway......they still having to get to wherever their final destination is. Island flights, of course. But the number of the ORD locals are driving to Greek mainland destinations is much higher, percentage-wise, than the rest of the USA.

There are people out there that are willing to pay a little more, if the routing is more convenient(as in one less stop). Yes, the yield on ORD-ATH would not be even close to what ORD-ZRH would be getting....
but it would definitely be significantly higher than NYC-ATH. Totally "different animal" as they say.

You know who I can see doing ORD-ATH, surprisingly, is ET. They are expanding..... most places in the USA need a fuel stop enroute to ADD.......a local flight is needed ADD-ATH, anyway......not that much of a local market ORD-ADD, but they can offset this by selling local ORD-ATH, plus have partner UA's hub at ORD feed it. Lots of possibilities for revenue, with THREE Star Alliance hubs on this flight.
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:13 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
wenders825 wrote:
I could see AA starting ORD-ATH. surprised they didn't.

The "ball was in UA's court" for the longest time, and they have not taken any action. Large Greek population, and the heart of the community a few minutes away from their headquarters......their frequent flyers and employees alike have been vocal about getting more Athens service(especially from ORD), and it has fallen on deaf ears.

With A3 is content of being the "AS of Europe", no charters in the ORD-Greece market, plus UA's indifference, it's basically AA or nothing.


Maybe because UA is in the business of making money and not losing it?

But they are pursuing the Spirit crowd with these "Basic Economy" fares. I'm skeptical that they are making any money on these tickets....just a "predatory" move........
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:25 am

Luisvalero wrote:
I think Aegean should start ATH-JFK, ATH-ORD or ATH-YYZ, if it had the proper aircraft such as B788 or A332.

A3(if they ever do decide to fly to the USA)should stay clear of JFK/EWR/YYZ, as that would be redundant, and they would lose money, big-time against the US3. If anything, it would be ORD/BOS, or possibly IAD/DTW that would make sense.
WesternA318 wrote:

Plus, EK's service is just an add-on to one of their DXB-ATH services, so that helps too. Their fares remain pretty dirt cheap too compared to the others.

And despite EK being in the market, UA is still selling a lot tickets. Someone told me they were averaging about 95% load factor most of this summer.
 
OlympicATH
Posts: 209
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:57 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
A3(if they ever do decide to fly to the USA)should stay clear of JFK/EWR/YYZ, as that would be redundant, and they would lose money, big-time against the US3. If anything, it would be ORD/BOS, or possibly IAD/DTW that would make sense.


Why would they lose money against the US carriers? A3's unit costs are very competitive, plus they can offer connections to/from the rest of Greece, the Middle East and southeastern Europe, which the US3 can't do (AC does codeshare with A3 though).
And none of the US3 fly to ATH year round anymore, so there is a market if the Greek economy recovers.
Not to mention that ATH-EWR/ORD/IAD are Star hub to Star hub routes, which could help if A3 and UA tighten their partnership down the road. So are ATH-YYZ/YUL.
If A3 goes transatlantic they will definitely want to serve NYC, which is by far the largest market.
 
Freshside3
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Ui

Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:01 pm

OlympicATH wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
A3(if they ever do decide to fly to the USA)should stay clear of JFK/EWR/YYZ, as that would be redundant, and they would lose money, big-time against the US3. If anything, it would be ORD/BOS, or possibly IAD/DTW that would make sense.


Why would they lose money against the US carriers? A3's unit costs are very competitive, plus they can offer connections to/from the rest of Greece, the Middle East and southeastern Europe, which the US3 can't do (AC does codeshare with A3 though).
And none of the US3 fly to ATH year round anymore, so there is a market if the Greek economy recovers.
Not to mention that ATH-EWR/ORD/IAD are Star hub to Star hub routes, which could help if A3 and UA tighten their partnership down the road. So are ATH-YYZ/YUL.
If A3 goes transatlantic they will definitely want to serve NYC, which is by far the largest market.


I keep forgetting that Greece got a record number of tourists---this year and last, and there may indeed be enough demand for a (viable) fifth flight from a NYC airport, where there wasn't before. Quite different than 2015. Still, the mind-set of the US3 vis-à-vis Greece is "only cheap tickets from metro NYC during the Summer". Where in reality, it's a much more diverse market. as you know.

The thing I am emphasizing with the other stations, is that you can charge slightly more for people who want the convenience of one less stop. You may not fill up planes out of ORD/BOS/IAD/DTW, as quickly, but you will make enough money on the people who want the convenience.

A3 indeed does have the capability(and flexibility) of doing things that other carriers cannot do. The only problem is---for whatever reason---is that they don't have any wide-bodies with long enough range.

The fact that UA, who is their partner, does not have that much code-sharing with A3. Which doesn't help the situation.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:33 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Luisvalero wrote:
I think Aegean should start ATH-JFK, ATH-ORD or ATH-YYZ, if it had the proper aircraft such as B788 or A332.

A3(if they ever do decide to fly to the USA)should stay clear of JFK/EWR/YYZ, as that would be redundant, and they would lose money, big-time against the US3. If anything, it would be ORD/BOS, or possibly IAD/DTW that would make sense.
WesternA318 wrote:

Plus, EK's service is just an add-on to one of their DXB-ATH services, so that helps too. Their fares remain pretty dirt cheap too compared to the others.

And despite EK being in the market, UA is still selling a lot tickets. Someone told me they were averaging about 95% load factor most of this summer.


The UA flights are timed to meet with a LOT of connections. There's that to consider. The Emirates flights come in so late you cant connect anywhere without spending the night.

As for ORD-ATH being a Star hub to Star hub route, well, technically. ATH is treated as nothing more than a regional hub, and Aegean does a damn good job of keeping it viable as such. It will never be the global gateway ORD, EWR, FRA or even IAH are. It's like Europe's version of say...Denver...or Phoenix.

Dont get me wrong, I love what Aegean is doing, and they are a solid carrier (much better than the god forsaken OA ever was) with a great strategy, one I hope they never venture from.
 
boilerla
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:01 am

Just for reference, I'm flying to ATH after peak summer season ends in paid J on UA. On the way there, LAX-ATH, airfare was pretty expensive but it turned out to be the LAX-FRA connection more than ATH. On the way back through EWR the J cabin is mostly open. It's one of the last days ATH-EWR operates actually before ended for the season.

All in the airfare was still less than $2500 for what ends up being a 16 hour flight, and it's still technically "in the season" since we are start travel in mid-September. I can't imagine UA sustaining those kinds of fares in mid-February.
 
georgiabill
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:24 am

I think BOS-ATH could work seasonally daily and perhaps 3-4 off season. Perhaps if EK wanted to restore 2nd daily service route the flight through ATH same as EWR . Should EK have enough demand for a 2nd daily stand alone DXB BOS perhaps have a third DXB-ATH-BOS-ATH-DXB flight 3 or 4 weekly year round
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:30 am

I could definitely see ET doing ADD-ATH-ORD, that may work, with something as small as the god awful 787 or the A350...but seasonally as well.
 
Kamila88
Topic Author
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:41 am

A3 have some sort of interline agreement with EK so technically there should be some feed from A3.
Perhaps A3 is doing this to test the waters but I wonder how much there actually is.
 
User avatar
OA260
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:24 am

Kamila88 wrote:
A3 have some sort of interline agreement with EK so technically there should be some feed from A3.
Perhaps A3 is doing this to test the waters but I wonder how much there actually is.


This is purely to allow for connections to the Islands once they get off the EK flight in ATH. Any other connections from A3's routes that serve the region are minimal.
 
Freshside3
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:49 pm

georgiabill wrote:
I think BOS-ATH could work seasonally daily and perhaps 3-4 off season. Perhaps if EK wanted to restore 2nd daily service route the flight through ATH same as EWR . Should EK have enough demand for a 2nd daily stand alone DXB BOS perhaps have a third DXB-ATH-BOS-ATH-DXB flight 3 or 4 weekly year round

Also, a different scenario than EWR. EK has B6 as a partner. At EWR on B6, you are limited to just BOS, and a handful of Florida cities .The bulk of the B6 business for NYC goes to their JFK hub. But BOS is an actual hub for B6, which could feed a lot more cities.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 5972
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:36 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
The "ball was in UA's court" for the longest time, and they have not taken any action. Large Greek population, and the heart of the community a few minutes away from their headquarters......their frequent flyers and employees alike have been vocal about getting more Athens service(especially from ORD), and it has fallen on deaf ears.

With A3 is content of being the "AS of Europe", no charters in the ORD-Greece market, plus UA's indifference, it's basically AA or nothing.


Maybe because UA is in the business of making money and not losing it?

But they are pursuing the Spirit crowd with these "Basic Economy" fares. I'm skeptical that they are making any money on these tickets....just a "predatory" move........


According to them, those fares are profitable.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
klwright69
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:52 pm

Of course UA does well on EWR-ATH. EWR is a hub designed for a route like this.
Greece is perceived as a safe and popular world class destination.
No one seriously thought EK was going to push them out.
How EK does in January and February is another story. Of course locals that need a year round flight will love it.
 
User avatar
tallen261
Posts: 9
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:00 pm

Please forgive me if this is a dumb question, but what is "VFR traffic?" In my mind VFR is "visual flight rules." From context is sounds like another term for O&D or something similar. Am I right? Thanks!
 
tofur
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:51 pm

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:51 pm

tallen261 wrote:
Please forgive me if this is a dumb question, but what is "VFR traffic?" In my mind VFR is "visual flight rules." From context is sounds like another term for O&D or something similar. Am I right? Thanks!


Visiting friends and relatives, I believe.
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3891
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:24 pm

tallen261 wrote:
Please forgive me if this is a dumb question, but what is "VFR traffic?" In my mind VFR is "visual flight rules." From context is sounds like another term for O&D or something similar. Am I right? Thanks!


"Visiting Friends & Relatives"
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
klwright69
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:49 am

Some said ATH has "trash yields." Well it must be good enough to fly the route in the summer nonstop from the USA, and not route traffic via a connection point in Europe, likewise some people must be paying business class or high dollar seats for nonstops.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:24 pm

klwright69 wrote:
Some said ATH has "trash yields." Well it must be good enough to fly the route in the summer nonstop from the USA, and not route traffic via a connection point in Europe, likewise some people must be paying business class or high dollar seats for nonstops.


When I referred to the yields as trash, I meant they are on the lower end of importance to the airlines that the fares the carriers can control on larger, more important, corporate contract laden flights like ORD_LHR for example. ATH is just another spoke to these airlines and probably doesnt warrant a whole lot of focus unless the flight becomes useless to the airline and they can fly that plane somewheree else and make more money with it.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:06 pm

klwright69 wrote:
Some said ATH has "trash yields." Well it must be good enough to fly the route in the summer nonstop from the USA, and not route traffic via a connection point in Europe, likewise some people must be paying business class or high dollar seats for nonstops.


Yes, ATH is primarily a so-called "tourist" market. But they have been getting more of the higher end of the tourist market. A lot more people doing "luxury vacations" in places such as Santorini and Lefkada,.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:14 pm

The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.

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