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slcdeltarumd11
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:26 pm

North America>Athens is extremely seasonal
Any data needs to reflect that.
 
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OA260
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:39 pm

aviationaware wrote:
The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.


Quite true and for someone like DL with their USA domestic network they have the advantage to feed the JFK-ATH flight. A3 would never have such clout even with a Star link up. DL by the way are doing very well in their J cabins right up until the end of September so far and have exceeded expectations apparently.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:49 pm

OA260 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.


Quite true and for someone like DL with their USA domestic network they have the advantage to feed the JFK-ATH flight. A3 would never have such clout even with a Star link up. DL by the way are doing very well in their J cabins right up until the end of September so far and have exceeded expectations apparently.


I'd love to see what the breakdown is between people who actually paid for the J class and those who either upgraded or used Skypesos.
 
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mercure1
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:32 pm

Entire Greek tourism market is very seasonal.

Image
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:17 pm

aviationaware wrote:
The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.


At least OA had a certain amount of "name recognition" in the USA---though not widespread, on the level of BA/KL/LH/SU/SQ, etc. Most Americans don't even know who NH is....and A3 much lesser known than that.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:07 pm

aviationaware wrote:
The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.

This is it, exactly.

Could A3 could make something work with a seasonal service to a major eastern US centre, with connections to UA flights. What about a wet-lease? I think of how WS used to lease a 757 to fly from Alberta to Hawaii in the winter.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:41 pm

aerolimani wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.

This is it, exactly.

Could A3 could make something work with a seasonal service to a major eastern US centre, with connections to UA flights. What about a wet-lease? I think of how WS used to lease a 757 to fly from Alberta to Hawaii in the winter.


They talk about it all the time, but it never fits in with what they know will work for them. They are not stupid enough to take a massive risk on something quite so expensive and so far away from the way they do things
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:52 pm

aerolimani wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.

This is it, exactly.

Could A3 could make something work with a seasonal service to a major eastern US centre, with connections to UA flights. What about a wet-lease? I think of how WS used to lease a 757 to fly from Alberta to Hawaii in the winter.


It may be a good idea to try it out on a limited basis a few times, to get a feel of it. That's the least they should do. They don't have to commit to a full season of flying on a schedule.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:17 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.

This is it, exactly.

Could A3 could make something work with a seasonal service to a major eastern US centre, with connections to UA flights. What about a wet-lease? I think of how WS used to lease a 757 to fly from Alberta to Hawaii in the winter.


It may be a good idea to try it out on a limited basis a few times, to get a feel of it. That's the least they should do. They don't have to commit to a full season of flying on a schedule.


That would be a serious waste of money, time, and manpower that could be used elsewhere to make more money on a more permanent basis, on an operational strategy that they know works with what they have, instead of have a miniscule subfleet with a whole different set of mx and staffing concerns.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:36 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
This is it, exactly.

Could A3 could make something work with a seasonal service to a major eastern US centre, with connections to UA flights. What about a wet-lease? I think of how WS used to lease a 757 to fly from Alberta to Hawaii in the winter.


It may be a good idea to try it out on a limited basis a few times, to get a feel of it. That's the least they should do. They don't have to commit to a full season of flying on a schedule.


That would be a serious waste of money, time, and manpower that could be used elsewhere to make more money on a more permanent basis, on an operational strategy that they know works with what they have, instead of have a miniscule subfleet with a whole different set of mx and staffing concerns.

Isn't that the point of a wet-lease? The owner of the plane takes care of the maintenance and staffing, not A3. When WS had the wet-leased 757, they just had one "WestJet service ambassador" on board to ensure that guests were receiving service in line with WS policies. The rest of the crew was provided by the lessor. And, yes, I realize that the WS situation (at that time) was different from A3, in that WS knew their market existed, as they were already flying lots of passengers to Hawaii. They just wet-leased the 757 so that they could do a nonstop from Alberta. Ultimately, however, I believe that WS's success with the wet-leased 757 was part of what encouraged them to invest in the 767 fleet they now have.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:47 pm

The 757's were just for increased lift to Hawaii during winter until they got the 737-800's with range and ETOPS.
 
CHI2DFW
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:56 pm

Outside of BOS and ORD seasonally, what else would work (LAX and the Midwest Wish Club)?
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:59 pm

JFK/EWR for sure, BOS and ORD too...and probably YYZ/YUL seasonally, but AC and Air Transat cover those every summer.
 
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aerolimani
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:57 am

WesternA318 wrote:
The 757's were just for increased lift to Hawaii during winter until they got the 737-800's with range and ETOPS.

Sorry, but no. WS continued to wet-lease 757's right up until they acquired their own 767's. WS has had 737-800's flying to Hawaii out of YVR for some years now, but I'm pretty sure the 737-800 won't make it from YYC or YEG, which is where they were using the wet-leased 757. Since then, those routes have been replaced with WS's own 767's. Anyhow… this line of conversation has drifted off-topic.

I was using WS as an example of an airline who wanted to fly a route for which they didn't have suitable equipment of their own. So, to operate it, they seasonally wet-leased a suitable aircraft. I was wondering whether anybody thought that could be a viable way for A3 to experiment with long-haul. That is, to seasonally wet-lease a widebody, and do just one or two routes with it.
 
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OA260
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:14 am

Freshside3 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.

This is it, exactly.

Could A3 could make something work with a seasonal service to a major eastern US centre, with connections to UA flights. What about a wet-lease? I think of how WS used to lease a 757 to fly from Alberta to Hawaii in the winter.


It may be a good idea to try it out on a limited basis a few times, to get a feel of it. That's the least they should do. They don't have to commit to a full season of flying on a schedule.


Has anyone here actually done a cost analysis on what it would actually involve. Leasing,operating what would need to be charged per seat, crewing costs etc? I guess A3 have done the math and its not adding up for them based on risk.
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:04 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Highly seasonal market, with traffic dropping off steeply after the end of September. From May to September it's another story. Very high demand as Greece is a very popular destination for tourism, cruise market, etc...There are very few strong business links between the US and Greece that could support year-round service (not sure about Canada but would expect the same). Other than VFR, it's tough. Olympic, in its various iterations had year round service to JFK, ORD, and I believe YYZ when it existed.

They also had YUL and BOS, too. Problem with BOS and ORD, though, they were not "dedicated" flights. Always a "tag-on" from the JFK trip. ORD would be ORD-JFK-ATH, and the BOS trip would be BOS-JFK-ATH on one of the days it operated, and JFK-BOS-ATH on the other. Most of the tickets were sold in NYC, anyway.Not really much of a benefit for having the ORD/BOS airport operations.
 
gzm
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:28 pm

Olympic flew to New York for 43 years,from 1966 to 2009 and they managed to break even only twice. Olympic was the national airline and fulfilled another purpose. They couldn't achieve profitability by using 747s nor by flying A340s.They wouldn't even if they had used 767-200ERs either. There is no reason for Aegean to gamble when the outcome is known beforehand. Aegean cannot cross the Atlantic,seriously,it was formed to facilitate the closure of Olympic and will follow another course.The route was kept "For reasons of national prestige" and it would be catastrophic for any Greek airline to try it again.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:17 pm

OA260 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
This is it, exactly.

Could A3 could make something work with a seasonal service to a major eastern US centre, with connections to UA flights. What about a wet-lease? I think of how WS used to lease a 757 to fly from Alberta to Hawaii in the winter.


It may be a good idea to try it out on a limited basis a few times, to get a feel of it. That's the least they should do. They don't have to commit to a full season of flying on a schedule.


Has anyone here actually done a cost analysis on what it would actually involve. Leasing,operating what would need to be charged per seat, crewing costs etc? I guess A3 have done the math and its not adding up for them based on risk.



I did one about 12 years ago when I worked at Homeric Tours. They were looking at ditching the charter flights they did every summer into doing their own operations. We looked at 767-300's, the 767-400, and both A330 variants. What stopped them was the family's heirs and the huge acquisition costs. It just came out to not be worth all the money just to haul people to and from ATH. They were looking at doing JFK-ATH, BOS-ATH, and ORD-ATH on daily basis in Summer, and in winter just keeping JFK-ATH and chartering out the other aircraft to keep em flying. I wish I still has the paperwork on it, even though it is seriously out of date.
 
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OA260
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:18 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:

It may be a good idea to try it out on a limited basis a few times, to get a feel of it. That's the least they should do. They don't have to commit to a full season of flying on a schedule.


Has anyone here actually done a cost analysis on what it would actually involve. Leasing,operating what would need to be charged per seat, crewing costs etc? I guess A3 have done the math and its not adding up for them based on risk.



I did one about 12 years ago when I worked at Homeric Tours. They were looking at ditching the charter flights they did every summer into doing their own operations. We looked at 767-300's, the 767-400, and both A330 variants. What stopped them was the family's heirs and the huge acquisition costs. It just came out to not be worth all the money just to haul people to and from ATH. They were looking at doing JFK-ATH, BOS-ATH, and ORD-ATH on daily basis in Summer, and in winter just keeping JFK-ATH and chartering out the other aircraft to keep em flying. I wish I still has the paperwork on it, even though it is seriously out of date.



Seems like not too much has changed and there is a reason why someone like DL makes it work when many have failed. Even OA tried to chop and change the routing and days operated and it never made a profit. Even taking out the over inflated crewing costs and ''expenses'' that were submitted the route was still bleeding money. Not many remember the ATH-MAN-BOS on the A300-600R either. That too flopped.


For anyone interested I picked out a few timetables from my 2 boxes of OA archives that I have. Shows the routings.

Image
.
Image


Image
.
Image
 
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aerolimani
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:32 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
It may be a good idea to try it out on a limited basis a few times, to get a feel of it. That's the least they should do. They don't have to commit to a full season of flying on a schedule.

Has anyone here actually done a cost analysis on what it would actually involve. Leasing,operating what would need to be charged per seat, crewing costs etc? I guess A3 have done the math and its not adding up for them based on risk.

I did one about 12 years ago when I worked at Homeric Tours. They were looking at ditching the charter flights they did every summer into doing their own operations. We looked at 767-300's, the 767-400, and both A330 variants. What stopped them was the family's heirs and the huge acquisition costs. It just came out to not be worth all the money just to haul people to and from ATH. They were looking at doing JFK-ATH, BOS-ATH, and ORD-ATH on daily basis in Summer, and in winter just keeping JFK-ATH and chartering out the other aircraft to keep em flying. I wish I still has the paperwork on it, even though it is seriously out of date.

How is there "huge acquisition costs" with a wet-lease? Especially when I'm talking about short-term (like maybe 6 months at a time) wet-leasing of just one or two aircraft.

Just so we're very clear what I'm talking about, to quote from a google search of define wet lease:

A wet lease is a leasing arrangement whereby one airline (the lessor) provides an aircraft, complete crew, maintenance, and insurance (ACMI) to another airline or other type of business acting as a broker of air travel (the lessee), which pays by hours operated.

If the costs of wet-leasing are so enormous, then how could anyone possibly make a profit doing it? It's a fairly common practice. For example, every year, numerous widebodies are wet-leased by charter companies to fly Hajj pilgrimages.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:18 pm

aerolimani wrote:
WesternA318 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Has anyone here actually done a cost analysis on what it would actually involve. Leasing,operating what would need to be charged per seat, crewing costs etc? I guess A3 have done the math and its not adding up for them based on risk.

I did one about 12 years ago when I worked at Homeric Tours. They were looking at ditching the charter flights they did every summer into doing their own operations. We looked at 767-300's, the 767-400, and both A330 variants. What stopped them was the family's heirs and the huge acquisition costs. It just came out to not be worth all the money just to haul people to and from ATH. They were looking at doing JFK-ATH, BOS-ATH, and ORD-ATH on daily basis in Summer, and in winter just keeping JFK-ATH and chartering out the other aircraft to keep em flying. I wish I still has the paperwork on it, even though it is seriously out of date.

How is there "huge acquisition costs" with a wet-lease? Especially when I'm talking about short-term (like maybe 6 months at a time) wet-leasing of just one or two aircraft.

Just so we're very clear what I'm talking about, to quote from a google search of define wet lease:

A wet lease is a leasing arrangement whereby one airline (the lessor) provides an aircraft, complete crew, maintenance, and insurance (ACMI) to another airline or other type of business acting as a broker of air travel (the lessee), which pays by hours operated.

If the costs of wet-leasing are so enormous, then how could anyone possibly make a profit doing it? It's a fairly common practice. For example, every year, numerous widebodies are wet-leased by charter companies to fly Hajj pilgrimages.



We werent talking about wetleases, as we had been doing multi-year charter flights for decades before. We wanted to step it up and do a full fledged in house airline operation since we had an AOC that we were sitting on since 1979 or so. I guess you could consider the charters we were doing as 4-6 month long wetleases. When it came to the actual acquisition costs to start the airline from scratch, they just became too prohibitive.
 
gsg013
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:20 pm

As an American of Greek descent my family likes to get back there from time to time. We feel like we have seen everything Athens has to offer the best things in Greece now are the islands. In many cases it is better to fly somewhere in Europe first (CDG, LHR, AMS, BRU, ZUR, GVA) then connect to one of the islands rather than go direct to Greece EWR or JFK- ATH and then take a connection or the ferry which takes many hours (also I get sea sick) lol
 
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aerolimani
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:34 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
aerolimani wrote:
WesternA318 wrote:
I did one about 12 years ago when I worked at Homeric Tours. They were looking at ditching the charter flights they did every summer into doing their own operations. We looked at 767-300's, the 767-400, and both A330 variants. What stopped them was the family's heirs and the huge acquisition costs. It just came out to not be worth all the money just to haul people to and from ATH. They were looking at doing JFK-ATH, BOS-ATH, and ORD-ATH on daily basis in Summer, and in winter just keeping JFK-ATH and chartering out the other aircraft to keep em flying. I wish I still has the paperwork on it, even though it is seriously out of date.

How is there "huge acquisition costs" with a wet-lease? Especially when I'm talking about short-term (like maybe 6 months at a time) wet-leasing of just one or two aircraft.

Just so we're very clear what I'm talking about, to quote from a google search of define wet lease:

A wet lease is a leasing arrangement whereby one airline (the lessor) provides an aircraft, complete crew, maintenance, and insurance (ACMI) to another airline or other type of business acting as a broker of air travel (the lessee), which pays by hours operated.

If the costs of wet-leasing are so enormous, then how could anyone possibly make a profit doing it? It's a fairly common practice. For example, every year, numerous widebodies are wet-leased by charter companies to fly Hajj pilgrimages.



We werent talking about wetleases, as we had been doing multi-year charter flights for decades before. We wanted to step it up and do a full fledged in house airline operation since we had an AOC that we were sitting on since 1979 or so. I guess you could consider the charters we were doing as 4-6 month long wetleases. When it came to the actual acquisition costs to start the airline from scratch, they just became too prohibitive.

In this discussion, I proposed a wet-lease, OA260 then quoted me and asked if anyone had done a cost analysis, and you replied with your analysis. Unfortunately, you replied with a non-useful answer, as your Homeric Tours cost analysis was not based on a wet-lease. So, OA260's question is still out there, unanswered. Thus, I will put it out there again, with just the one word inserted for absolute clarity.

OA260 wrote:
Has anyone here actually done a cost analysis on what it would actually involve. [Wet] leasing, operating what would need to be charged per seat, crewing costs etc?
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:29 pm

CHI2DFW wrote:
Outside of BOS and ORD seasonally, what else would work (LAX and the Midwest Wish Club)?

Although LAX does have the largest Greek population in the Western states, it is difficult to market to the people there. Greek people in L.A. are not exactly socially/culturally connected with each other, on the levels of other parts of the country. People are all spread out all over the place, in the L.A. basin. For all practical purposes, the Greek ethnic media of the West Coast is centered in San Francisco, NOT L.A.

Plus it is in the 13-14 hour flight range, too, if such a flight existed. Airlines would not be too keen on having such a long flight for mostly VFR clientele. Better off with a 10-hour East Coast, or 11-hour Midwest flight.

Only BOS/ORD/IAD/DTW would be viable gateways, with the combination of local traffic and connections, besides the existing JFK/EWR/PHL trips.
 
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deltacto
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:38 am

OA260 wrote:
Not many remember the ATH-MAN-BOS on the A300-600R either. That too flopped.


For anyone interested I picked out a few timetables from my 2 boxes of OA archives that I have. Shows the routings.


WOW ... my home airport is Boston Logan .... I dont remember Olympic ever flying here ... THANK YOU for posting these timetables!
 
gzm
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:54 pm

ATH-MAN-BOS was planned around 1999 by Speedwing (our English managers) with the intention of hurting the interests of another airline which belonged to a different Alliance than BA and they intended to use Olympic for that purpose.For example BA belongs to Oneworld and their target was AC (if I remember well) which belongs to Star Alliance. The schedule was not even given a chance, permission was never granted by the authorities.
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:50 pm

How is EK doing on ATH-EWR route with the A380 during off-season months?
 
Melb94
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:51 pm

OA260 wrote:
WesternA318 wrote:
OA260 wrote:

Has anyone here actually done a cost analysis on what it would actually involve. Leasing,operating what would need to be charged per seat, crewing costs etc? I guess A3 have done the math and its not adding up for them based on risk.



I did one about 12 years ago when I worked at Homeric Tours. They were looking at ditching the charter flights they did every summer into doing their own operations. We looked at 767-300's, the 767-400, and both A330 variants. What stopped them was the family's heirs and the huge acquisition costs. It just came out to not be worth all the money just to haul people to and from ATH. They were looking at doing JFK-ATH, BOS-ATH, and ORD-ATH on daily basis in Summer, and in winter just keeping JFK-ATH and chartering out the other aircraft to keep em flying. I wish I still has the paperwork on it, even though it is seriously out of date.



Seems like not too much has changed and there is a reason why someone like DL makes it work when many have failed. Even OA tried to chop and change the routing and days operated and it never made a profit. Even taking out the over inflated crewing costs and ''expenses'' that were submitted the route was still bleeding money. Not many remember the ATH-MAN-BOS on the A300-600R either. That too flopped.


For anyone interested I picked out a few timetables from my 2 boxes of OA archives that I have. Shows the routings.

Image
.
Image


Image
.
Image



I noticed in the last image of the flight schedule for Olmypic's North American services. Below that showed OA471/472 their ATH-BKK-MEL-SYD flights. Can you uphold the continuation of that schedule as I am curious to see what their schedules were like to Australia.

Many thanks
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:36 pm

Something is happening at UA.......looks like they are hiring some more Greek language-qualified flight attendants. Of course, this brings to mind that they may be adding more frequency. But after talking to my friends who work at UA........the only thing that is under consideration is expanding the length of the season on the existing EWR-ATH flight.

Easter is one of the strongest travel periods for Greece. EK had it right this year; DL started their season on Good Friday(so only the tail end of Holy Week)......and AA/UA missed the Easter crowd altogether. So, a fairly good chance. But please also consider the different dates for Orthodox Easter, compared to that of 'Western" Christians.........with Easter 2018 officially being celebrated in Greece on 8 April, most likely this will start around 1-3 of April(should UA decide to do this).
http://www.pappaspost.com/united-airlin ... endants-2/
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:31 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
The problem with Greece is that most of the long haul traffic does not originate there, so it's tough to market for an airline based there. Much easier to get Americans to book Delta than some foreign carrier they might never have heard of.


Quite true and for someone like DL with their USA domestic network they have the advantage to feed the JFK-ATH flight. A3 would never have such clout even with a Star link up. DL by the way are doing very well in their J cabins right up until the end of September so far and have exceeded expectations apparently.


I'd love to see what the breakdown is between people who actually paid for the J class and those who either upgraded or used Skypesos.

Talked to my friends at UA about this, and they were telling me that they have very few "freebies" on EWR-ATH.
 
ist2014
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:42 pm

How is TK performing at this market, they have plenty of Ist-Ath-Ist flights and timing of flights allows for US connection flights, do they have a good market share
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:35 am

ist2014 wrote:
How is TK performing at this market, they have plenty of Ist-Ath-Ist flights and timing of flights allows for US connection flights, do they have a good market share

Sometimes TK will have wide-bodies on IST-ATH, at peak times. So, they have a fairly good market share. They also fly from IST to SKG, as well. And many Greeks(both in Greece and in the USA) turn a "blind eye" to "political correctness", and will fly TK regardless of the fact where the airline is based. Service is good, and the food is closer to what Greek people are accustomed to, compared to the US and the EU carriers.
 
Kamila88
Topic Author
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:24 am

I don't believe the tourist arrivals are an accurate representation of the NA market.
It would be better to have data from Athens Airport.

A3 have developed a good network to feed its European flights from Cyprus, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Something that OA barely ever managed.
I would believe that combined this traffic would be enough to make the route succeed.
 
worldranger
Posts: 269
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:49 am

dubaiamman243 wrote:
How is EK doing on ATH-EWR route with the A380 during off-season months?


Too early to tell. The route was launched quickly with a limited lead in compared to other routes according to ATH EK staff.

After a couple of months Y was doing about 70%, premium up and down. The summer has been very strong. ATH staff are hoping the momentum and the market now aware of the option - will lead to a stronger off season.
 
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OA260
Posts: 26198
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:22 am

Melb94 wrote:

I noticed in the last image of the flight schedule for Olmypic's North American services. Below that showed OA471/472 their ATH-BKK-MEL-SYD flights. Can you uphold the continuation of that schedule as I am curious to see what their schedules were like to Australia.

Many thanks


I will try scan them later.


ist2014 wrote:
How is TK performing at this market, they have plenty of Ist-Ath-Ist flights and timing of flights allows for US connection flights, do they have a good market share



They do very well. Not only do they get USA traffic but they get a lot of Middle East,Africa and Asia traffic both Greek outbound and tourist inbound. Being such a short hop ATH-IST 50 mins it makes sense to connect there rather then back track to the likes of FCO,FRA etc.. Having the codeshares with A3 and both being Star members make it an even more attractive option.




Kamila88 wrote:
A3 have developed a good network to feed its European flights from Cyprus, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Something that OA barely ever managed.


Well actually OA did have a more extensive network to feed flights at ATH then A3 ever will. There was even a dedicated consolidator with fares for routings such at LHR-ATH-BEY / TLV / CAI / AMM / DXB / RUH / BKK / NBO / JNB / SYD / MEL. OA were also one of the few at the time offering all passengers free hotel at Athens with transfers and meals where the flights did not connect the same day or a long layover. This actually worked very well. The problem was it was low yield and they were not able to make enough money out of it for various reasons.
 
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airzim
Posts: 1570
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:12 pm

dubaiamman243 wrote:
How is EK doing on ATH-EWR route with the A380 during off-season months?


EK is using the 77W for EWR-ATH-DXB. In fact because of this, I booked away from EK and took LX back to the US from ATH to avoid the subpar J class on the EK 77W.

IIRC, EWR cannot handle an A380 given the taxiway and gate constraints.
 
LH423
Posts: 5924
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:01 pm

OA260 wrote:
Not many remember the ATH-MAN-BOS on the A300-600R either. That too flopped.


Nothing to remember; the flights never got off the ground. It was announced and OA even got so far as to putting out advertising for the flights, targeting both the Greek community looking to travel to Greece as well as those wanting to bypass LON on their flights to the UK. However, if memory serves, OA canned the route a few months before commencement, having been unable to come to an agreement with the pilots union over duty time. The airline wanted one crew to be able to do the whole ATH-MAN-BOS and the union said that was not possible. The costs of having an additional crew layover in MAN deemed the already marginal route too expensive and it silently went away.

This was OAs last attempt in the BOS market, marking what would have been a return after their A340 service, in conjunction with JFK, was discontinued. It is worth noting that Greater Boston has, depending on the figures used, the second, third or fourth largest population stating Greek heritage in North America. Boston, Chicago and Toronto each have around 100,000 Greek-American/Canadian residents.

LH423
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:39 pm

And curious what the deal was on Air Transat's YVR-ATH service........a few years back, I remember seeing YVR as one of the airports that had direct flights, on the ATH airport website. Did that actually happen? My guess is that that the plans were dropped before even starting the route.....any ideas what actually happened?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:16 pm

Someone mentioned ET as a fifth freedom service. What about seasonally reducing ADD-LFW-EWR to 3x weekly and rerouting the other two weekly frequencies via ATH, from late March to late September? After that, it can go to 4 weekly via LFW instead of ATH. A3 can collect the local passengers and place them on ET or UA flights.
 
Freshside3
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Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:26 am

gsg013 wrote:
As an American of Greek descent my family likes to get back there from time to time. We feel like we have seen everything Athens has to offer the best things in Greece now are the islands. In many cases it is better to fly somewhere in Europe first (CDG, LHR, AMS, BRU, ZUR, GVA) then connect to one of the islands rather than go direct to Greece EWR or JFK- ATH and then take a connection or the ferry which takes many hours (also I get sea sick) lol

It's interesting that you mention connecting via the other European cities, rather than going to ATH. Do you take the standard carriers across the Atlantic, and then switch to low-cost/seasonal/charter carriers when you get there? With the general lack of agreements between the two types of carriers, it can be risky. It's nobody's liability but your own, for connections, if something delays or cancels. Do you "build in" a planned overnight stay in CDG, ZRH, etc. on your trips, as a precaution? Or take your chances? Just curious.
 
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aerolimani
Posts: 1460
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:44 am

Freshside3 wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
As an American of Greek descent my family likes to get back there from time to time. We feel like we have seen everything Athens has to offer the best things in Greece now are the islands. In many cases it is better to fly somewhere in Europe first (CDG, LHR, AMS, BRU, ZUR, GVA) then connect to one of the islands rather than go direct to Greece EWR or JFK- ATH and then take a connection or the ferry which takes many hours (also I get sea sick) lol

It's interesting that you mention connecting via the other European cities, rather than going to ATH. Do you take the standard carriers across the Atlantic, and then switch to low-cost/seasonal/charter carriers when you get there? With the general lack of agreements between the two types of carriers, it can be risky. It's nobody's liability but your own, for connections, if something delays or cancels. Do you "build in" a planned overnight stay in CDG, ZRH, etc. on your trips, as a precaution? Or take your chances? Just curious.

In my experience, the risks of connecting between non-associated carriers just isn't worth it. Plus, I'm usually arriving with a checked bag, and paying for a checked bag tends to void most (or all) of the cost savings on EU LCC's. Besides, once you're in Athens, connections to the rest of the country are cheap and plentiful. Fairly often, Aegean has seat sales (bare fare) as low as 19€ one way. Worst case scenario, I have to overnight in an Athens hotel, and then take my flight the next day. Frankly, when I'm jetlagged and tired, it's not the worst thing to have a rest in Athens before getting on a plane in Athens. Even if I don't want to linger in Athens, I still like seeing the Akropolis from a rooftop hotel bar, before heading elsewhere. It's like paying my respects.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1594
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:13 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
gsg013 wrote:
As an American of Greek descent my family likes to get back there from time to time. We feel like we have seen everything Athens has to offer the best things in Greece now are the islands. In many cases it is better to fly somewhere in Europe first (CDG, LHR, AMS, BRU, ZUR, GVA) then connect to one of the islands rather than go direct to Greece EWR or JFK- ATH and then take a connection or the ferry which takes many hours (also I get sea sick) lol

It's interesting that you mention connecting via the other European cities, rather than going to ATH. Do you take the standard carriers across the Atlantic, and then switch to low-cost/seasonal/charter carriers when you get there? With the general lack of agreements between the two types of carriers, it can be risky. It's nobody's liability but your own, for connections, if something delays or cancels. Do you "build in" a planned overnight stay in CDG, ZRH, etc. on your trips, as a precaution? Or take your chances? Just curious.

In my experience, the risks of connecting between non-associated carriers just isn't worth it. Plus, I'm usually arriving with a checked bag, and paying for a checked bag tends to void most (or all) of the cost savings on EU LCC's. Besides, once you're in Athens, connections to the rest of the country are cheap and plentiful. Fairly often, Aegean has seat sales (bare fare) as low as 19€ one way. Worst case scenario, I have to overnight in an Athens hotel, and then take my flight the next day. Frankly, when I'm jetlagged and tired, it's not the worst thing to have a rest in Athens before getting on a plane in Athens. Even if I don't want to linger in Athens, I still like seeing the Akropolis from a rooftop hotel bar, before heading elsewhere. It's like paying my respects.

You got that right. It's not worth the trouble mixing non-associated airlines. And in the days when there were many direct charters from NYC airports to Greece, they didn't work well for in the Midwest and West, for the same reasons.

If I needed to make a stopover, I would much rather be in Athens, too.
 
Melb94
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:21 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:23 pm

OA260 wrote:
Melb94 wrote:

I noticed in the last image of the flight schedule for Olmypic's North American services. Below that showed OA471/472 their ATH-BKK-MEL-SYD flights. Can you uphold the continuation of that schedule as I am curious to see what their schedules were like to Australia.

Many thanks


I will try scan them later.


ist2014 wrote:
How is TK performing at this market, they have plenty of Ist-Ath-Ist flights and timing of flights allows for US connection flights, do they have a good market share



They do very well. Not only do they get USA traffic but they get a lot of Middle East,Africa and Asia traffic both Greek outbound and tourist inbound. Being such a short hop ATH-IST 50 mins it makes sense to connect there rather then back track to the likes of FCO,FRA etc.. Having the codeshares with A3 and both being Star members make it an even more attractive option.




Kamila88 wrote:
A3 have developed a good network to feed its European flights from Cyprus, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Something that OA barely ever managed.


Well actually OA did have a more extensive network to feed flights at ATH then A3 ever will. There was even a dedicated consolidator with fares for routings such at LHR-ATH-BEY / TLV / CAI / AMM / DXB / RUH / BKK / NBO / JNB / SYD / MEL. OA were also one of the few at the time offering all passengers free hotel at Athens with transfers and meals where the flights did not connect the same day or a long layover. This actually worked very well. The problem was it was low yield and they were not able to make enough money out of it for various reasons.


Thanks OA260! :D
 
gsg013
Posts: 663
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:03 pm

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:39 am

usually JFK-CDG or AMS on AF/KLM/DL. Then onward.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1594
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:28 am

Kamila88 wrote:
I don't believe the tourist arrivals are an accurate representation of the NA market.
It would be better to have data from Athens Airport.


According to Athens Airport, the number of people from the USA's unserved markets that used indirect routings to ATH in 2016:
BOS- 65,300 ORD- 64,600 LAX-50,600 SFO- 45,500[threeid][/threeid]
 
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adamh8297
Posts: 3334
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:48 am

Freshside3 wrote:
Kamila88 wrote:
I don't believe the tourist arrivals are an accurate representation of the NA market.
It would be better to have data from Athens Airport.


According to Athens Airport, the number of people from the USA's unserved markets that used indirect routings to ATH in 2016:
BOS- 65,300 ORD- 64,600 LAX-50,600 SFO- 45,500[threeid][/threeid]


As a tourist visiting Greece in 2016 I flew BOS-MUC-ATH-HER and returned ATH-LHR-BOS. These were on one way award tickets with UA and AA respectively.

Also did HER-JTR on EL and JTR-ATH on A3.

I wonder how many others do split itineraries like mine i.e enter via an island and leave via ATH.
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1594
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:12 am

adamh8297 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
Kamila88 wrote:
I don't believe the tourist arrivals are an accurate representation of the NA market.
It would be better to have data from Athens Airport.


According to Athens Airport, the number of people from the USA's unserved markets that used indirect routings to ATH in 2016:
BOS- 65,300 ORD- 64,600 LAX-50,600 SFO- 45,500[threeid][/threeid]


As a tourist visiting Greece in 2016 I flew BOS-MUC-ATH-HER and returned ATH-LHR-BOS. These were on one way award tickets with UA and AA respectively.

Also did HER-JTR on EL and JTR-ATH on A3.

I wonder how many others do split itineraries like mine i.e enter via an island and leave via ATH.

Actually, fairly common. Especially for those who are from the smaller US markets. You have to leave Greece early, to make that chain of connections. It's more difficult to do the return westbound, with multiple plane changes, than it is going over. Different set of dynamics for those combinations.......getting from JKH to GRR, to cite an example, is a bit more tricky.

In most cases, take a flight the day before, then overnight in Athens.

There are some also some others that take the all night ferry from JTR, etc. and arrive in Pireaus at 3 in the morning, too.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:32 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:

According to Athens Airport, the number of people from the USA's unserved markets that used indirect routings to ATH in 2016:
BOS- 65,300 ORD- 64,600 LAX-50,600 SFO- 45,500[threeid][/threeid]


As a tourist visiting Greece in 2016 I flew BOS-MUC-ATH-HER and returned ATH-LHR-BOS. These were on one way award tickets with UA and AA respectively.

Also did HER-JTR on EL and JTR-ATH on A3.

I wonder how many others do split itineraries like mine i.e enter via an island and leave via ATH.

Actually, fairly common. Especially for those who are from the smaller US markets. You have to leave Greece early, to make that chain of connections. It's more difficult to do the return westbound, with multiple plane changes, than it is going over. Different set of dynamics for those combinations.......getting from JKH to GRR, to cite an example, is a bit more tricky.

In most cases, take a flight the day before, then overnight in Athens.

There are some also some others that take the all night ferry from JTR, etc. and arrive in Pireaus at 3 in the morning, too.


It's funny you mention it, I just booked a group from Pocatello, ID to ATH. No ways around it to get a decent rate I got them to do PIH-SLC-AMS-ATH, and on the return ATH-CDG-SLC-PIH. At least the times for these stateside connections are far better...
 
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aerolimani
Posts: 1460
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:46 pm

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:29 pm

Ultimately, I think any action would have to come from the Greek end of things. The North American carriers are happy to funnel all the traffic through their hubs at home. They shuttle people to Athens and let them sort themselves out from there. I don't see long-haul happening with A3 any time soon. The only other option would be a greek startup appears with enough financing and competent management, and I REALLY don't see that happening.

I wonder what possibilities might exist for a NA airline to fly to somewhere other than ATH. But then, where would be worthwhile and possible? SKG, maybe? Is the extension of 10/28 complete? Do any of the islands even have runways sufficient for a widebody?

Of course, the thing with Greece is that people arrive in ATH, and then scatter far and wide. I am always amazed just how quickly you can find yourself in the middle of nowhere. Is there any one holiday destination that could even support large planes of people arriving from overseas? Greece's tourist infrastructure simply does not have anything like Cancun, Mexico where European widebodies are continually coming and going. Then again, St. Maarten sees big planes, and it's not a big place. Of course, that's a colonial connection, and that's a different dynamic.

Anyhow… I'm rambling now. :|
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:43 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Ultimately, I think any action would have to come from the Greek end of things. The North American carriers are happy to funnel all the traffic through their hubs at home. They shuttle people to Athens and let them sort themselves out from there. I don't see long-haul happening with A3 any time soon. The only other option would be a greek startup appears with enough financing and competent management, and I REALLY don't see that happening.

I wonder what possibilities might exist for a NA airline to fly to somewhere other than ATH. But then, where would be worthwhile and possible? SKG, maybe? Is the extension of 10/28 complete? Do any of the islands even have runways sufficient for a widebody?

Of course, the thing with Greece is that people arrive in ATH, and then scatter far and wide. I am always amazed just how quickly you can find yourself in the middle of nowhere. Is there any one holiday destination that could even support large planes of people arriving from overseas? Greece's tourist infrastructure simply does not have anything like Cancun, Mexico where European widebodies are continually coming and going. Then again, St. Maarten sees big planes, and it's not a big place. Of course, that's a colonial connection, and that's a different dynamic.

Anyhow… I'm rambling now. :|




I could see seasonal SKG service...maybe not daily, but definitely 2 or 3x a week from NYC.

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