Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:04 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
adamh8297 wrote:

As a tourist visiting Greece in 2016 I flew BOS-MUC-ATH-HER and returned ATH-LHR-BOS. These were on one way award tickets with UA and AA respectively.

Also did HER-JTR on EL and JTR-ATH on A3.

I wonder how many others do split itineraries like mine i.e enter via an island and leave via ATH.

Actually, fairly common. Especially for those who are from the smaller US markets. You have to leave Greece early, to make that chain of connections. It's more difficult to do the return westbound, with multiple plane changes, than it is going over. Different set of dynamics for those combinations.......getting from JKH to GRR, to cite an example, is a bit more tricky.

In most cases, take a flight the day before, then overnight in Athens.

There are some also some others that take the all night ferry from JTR, etc. and arrive in Pireaus at 3 in the morning, too.


It's funny you mention it, I just booked a group from Pocatello, ID to ATH. No ways around it to get a decent rate I got them to do PIH-SLC-AMS-ATH, and on the return ATH-CDG-SLC-PIH. At least the times for these stateside connections are far better...

Yes, you got my point on those odd combinations of connections, on both ends of the equation. I know of people, on various levels, that start in odd parts of the USA, and go to places beyond ATH......as in combinations such as LNK-CHQ, GEG-PAS, and SCK-EFL.(Which are stories within themselves).

Which strengthens the case of getting service from ORD to ATH.......this could eliminate a stop in the chain, and present a more palatable routing option for the passengers. Many are accustomed to paying higher rates for flights anyway, and often use time/money on hotel stops(in the US or Europe). And they are people that would like to go to Greece more often, but it's such a hassle for them. If a really good alternative is available, they would go every year, instead of once every three years. Yes, Greece may be a so-called "tourist" market, as we know. But having these communities better connected, would elevate the revenue in the USA-Greece market well above the "junk yield" stereotype.

But AA and UA just aren't getting a clue about the benefits of this. (And likewise, and to a lesser extent, DL could do the same from DTW). A different mix of connections, as there are many markets that don't have flights to the existing NYC/PHL/Europe hubs-------but do have flights to ORD or DTW.

Since you mentioned Idaho.......Boise would be down to just ONE stop to Greece, if any carrier got ORD-ATH, they would connect off an existing BOI-ORD trip.
 
WesternA318
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:34 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
WesternA318 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
Actually, fairly common. Especially for those who are from the smaller US markets. You have to leave Greece early, to make that chain of connections. It's more difficult to do the return westbound, with multiple plane changes, than it is going over. Different set of dynamics for those combinations.......getting from JKH to GRR, to cite an example, is a bit more tricky.

In most cases, take a flight the day before, then overnight in Athens.

There are some also some others that take the all night ferry from JTR, etc. and arrive in Pireaus at 3 in the morning, too.


It's funny you mention it, I just booked a group from Pocatello, ID to ATH. No ways around it to get a decent rate I got them to do PIH-SLC-AMS-ATH, and on the return ATH-CDG-SLC-PIH. At least the times for these stateside connections are far better...

Yes, you got my point on those odd combinations of connections, on both ends of the equation. I know of people, on various levels, that start in odd parts of the USA, and go to places beyond ATH......as in combinations such as LNK-CHQ, GEG-PAS, and SCK-EFL.(Which are stories within themselves).

Which strengthens the case of getting service from ORD to ATH.......this could eliminate a stop in the chain, and present a more palatable routing option for the passengers. Many are accustomed to paying higher rates for flights anyway, and often use time/money on hotel stops(in the US or Europe). And they are people that would like to go to Greece more often, but it's such a hassle for them. If a really good alternative is available, they would go every year, instead of once every three years. Yes, Greece may be a so-called "tourist" market, as we know. But having these communities better connected, would elevate the revenue in the USA-Greece market well above the "junk yield" stereotype.

But AA and UA just aren't getting a clue about the benefits of this. (And likewise, and to a lesser extent, DL could do the same from DTW). A different mix of connections, as there are many markets that don't have flights to the existing NYC/PHL/Europe hubs-------but do have flights to ORD or DTW.

Since you mentioned Idaho.......Boise would be down to just ONE stop to Greece, if any carrier got ORD-ATH, they would connect off an existing BOI-ORD trip.


Good point. The only one that would make sense with would be UA, though. TONS of UA loyalists up that way.
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:36 pm

aerolimani wrote:
Ultimately, I think any action would have to come from the Greek end of things. The North American carriers are happy to funnel all the traffic through their hubs at home. They shuttle people to Athens and let them sort themselves out from there. I don't see long-haul happening with A3 any time soon. The only other option would be a greek startup appears with enough financing and competent management, and I REALLY don't see that happening.

I wonder what possibilities might exist for a NA airline to fly to somewhere other than ATH. But then, where would be worthwhile and possible? SKG, maybe? Is the extension of 10/28 complete? Do any of the islands even have runways sufficient for a widebody?

Of course, the thing with Greece is that people arrive in ATH, and then scatter far and wide. I am always amazed just how quickly you can find yourself in the middle of nowhere. Is there any one holiday destination that could even support large planes of people arriving from overseas? Greece's tourist infrastructure simply does not have anything like Cancun, Mexico where European widebodies are continually coming and going. Then again, St. Maarten sees big planes, and it's not a big place. Of course, that's a colonial connection, and that's a different dynamic.

Anyhow… I'm rambling now. :|


Part of the problem is with A3 and UA not code-sharing with each other all that much. In fact, next to nothing. At least the AC overwater flights have A3 code-share numbers on them, which helps. That being said, it seems that UA is unwilling to view A3 as a "serious" airline.

Perhaps Ellinair---who is not as well-known as A3/OA-----could start Greek long-haul service, sometime down the line.

Possibilities to other Greek destinations......SKG has the same problem as KRK had for years----as in not enough runway for maximum takeoff weight. KRK has since lengthened their runway, and is has now resumed service to the USA. (LO previously had service from KRK, but would constantly be on a weight restriction). Still, the runway is the main issue.

The only two airports that can really handle wide-bodies in Greece(for all practical purposes) would be CHQ and RHO. Chania, has a surprisingly long runway, but is not as well-known in North America. NYC/YYZ-Rhodes would probably be the only island flight that would even have a chance, if at all.
 
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airzim
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:05 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
Part of the problem is with A3 and UA not code-sharing with each other all that much. In fact, next to nothing. At least the AC overwater flights have A3 code-share numbers on them, which helps. That being said, it seems that UA is unwilling to view A3 as a "serious" airline.


I suspect it's the other way around. A3 doesn't really gain anything from United except terrible interline prorate tickets beyond ATH flights. Most logical connections flights are to the islands, Israel, Egypt and under 2 hours. Plus there's no real logic to codeshare with UA to any additional EU destinations given the sizable back track. I would assume that A3 would rather capture that traffic directly from local demand and unique bookings from Star Alliance loyalist. (Myself included who bought 4 tickets to Santorini this year from ATH).
 
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aerolimani
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:16 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
Possibilities to other Greek destinations......SKG has the same problem as KRK had for years----as in not enough runway for maximum takeoff weight. KRK has since lengthened their runway, and is has now resumed service to the USA. (LO previously had service from KRK, but would constantly be on a weight restriction). Still, the runway is the main issue.

The SKG runway extension project is still under construction, from what I can see on a June 2017 google earth image. I wonder when it might be completed. When complete, it will enable large widebody intercontinental service, supposedly without restrictions.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:30 am

Year-round, it probably won't work. However, I'm surprised that Ethiopian, with whom United does codeshare, doesn't consider filling this market, seasonally. Such a proposal could work going 6x weekly to EWR during the summer, 3 via LFW and 3 via ATH, and 4x weekly during the winter, all via LFW. Aegean could then place its code on the Ethiopian flight.
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:30 pm

airzim wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
Part of the problem is with A3 and UA not code-sharing with each other all that much. In fact, next to nothing. At least the AC overwater flights have A3 code-share numbers on them, which helps. That being said, it seems that UA is unwilling to view A3 as a "serious" airline.


I suspect it's the other way around. A3 doesn't really gain anything from United except terrible interline prorate tickets beyond ATH flights. Most logical connections flights are to the islands, Israel, Egypt and under 2 hours. Plus there's no real logic to codeshare with UA to any additional EU destinations given the sizable back track. I would assume that A3 would rather capture that traffic directly from local demand and unique bookings from Star Alliance loyalist. (Myself included who bought 4 tickets to Santorini this year from ATH).

On the other side of the coin, there is an opportunity to connect Greece with the USA, through a second EU city. And certainly doesn't involve backtracking.

For example, there is a UA code-share on LOT's LHR-WAW trip. They could certainly do a similar thing on the ATH trips. Especially at airports that are not alliance hubs, such as CDG, MAN, MAD, etc.
 
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airzim
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:18 pm

Freshside3 wrote:
airzim wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
Part of the problem is with A3 and UA not code-sharing with each other all that much. In fact, next to nothing. At least the AC overwater flights have A3 code-share numbers on them, which helps. That being said, it seems that UA is unwilling to view A3 as a "serious" airline.


I suspect it's the other way around. A3 doesn't really gain anything from United except terrible interline prorate tickets beyond ATH flights. Most logical connections flights are to the islands, Israel, Egypt and under 2 hours. Plus there's no real logic to codeshare with UA to any additional EU destinations given the sizable back track. I would assume that A3 would rather capture that traffic directly from local demand and unique bookings from Star Alliance loyalist. (Myself included who bought 4 tickets to Santorini this year from ATH).

On the other side of the coin, there is an opportunity to connect Greece with the USA, through a second EU city. And certainly doesn't involve backtracking.

For example, there is a UA code-share on LOT's LHR-WAW trip. They could certainly do a similar thing on the ATH trips. Especially at airports that are not alliance hubs, such as CDG, MAN, MAD, etc.


The fundamental difference is UA flies to ATH in the months that matter. Why code share with A3 over LHR and split the revenue, when you can carry the passenger the whole way on your own metal? Off season, they can send everything through JV partners.

UA doesn't serve WAW. Therefore the codeshare makes more logical sense routing over LHR, then more lucrative demand over JV hubs. LHR is their most served Europe station, thus also collecting the lion share of the ticket revenue by doing the TATL.
 
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Ab345
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:55 pm

Hello to all and here's my contribution on this subject:

A couple of years ago I hang out with someone in middle management at Aegean and it was right about the time they were firmly in the black again after the shock of the first crisis years, and they were about the receive the first WL A320s. Coincidentally that was also around the time that SkyGreece was trying to ressurect the ATH JFK route with that ex-Martinair 763 (they shut down 2 years ago). I don't have any way of proving what he told me was true or to what extent he had credible intel but here is what I got back then as info:

-> A3 Senior management was till then at least very much interested in venturing into long haul...BUT....won't commit to anything if all the stars or cards or what have you are perfectly alligned.
-> As many have stated before me a lot of traffic is spoon fed to LH through FRA and MUC (personally I have been on 5 flights to MUC where FAs where cautioning the passengers to not wonder off at MUC airport in order to make all of their long haul connections and since they called out a lot of them IIRC most of them were North American airports.
-> In early 2013 they were waiting for SkyGreece to start flying and see how that plays out. My friend had a feeling that had SkyGreece been successful, A3 would get into gear faster than expected.
-> They were looking at JFK BOS ORD as possible destinations but not at the same time. IIRC they wanted to start with ORD or BOS and then maybe add JFK which is served in the summer by DL.
-> They were actually looking at some older A332s (or some more capable A333s) and whether or not they could lease them quick enough if needed.
->They have the numbers of O&D passengers from ATH airport (and their own bookings from feeding them to Star members) and they firmly believe there is a market there. The problem is how, when and if they can make the leap without putting the whole airline at risk.
-> Some in the upper management worry about how LH will take this if it happens. Of course again this is all info I got back in 2014 to 2015.

Please remember I m not claiming this is all undisputed fact and it is some dated talk but I firmly believe I was getting the real deal.

In the meantime I think A3 is more occupied with fleet renewal than anything else:

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... al-options

I think they will go for the neo btw. I don't see any way that Boeing can swing them. Cost of changing would be prohibitive.
 
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Ab345
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:09 pm

I forgot to add on my previous post that had they started let's say ORD & BOS with a couple of A330s they would fly them on every other day of the week ..for example 1..3..5..7 for ORD and ..2..4..6..for BOS and whatever down time the A330s had they would be used on routes that need the extra capacity namely the ATH LHR route which is packed to the gills all year round. IIRC they have 3x Daily with A321s for LHR. One of them could go to an A330 if the schedule worked
 
gzm
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:47 am

Olympic A340s also were packed on the ATH-JFK route,you know.This does not mean they were making money,this is another matter and somebody could care to explain it to all of us,grass roots...
 
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OA260
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:22 am

Ab345 wrote:
The problem is how, when and if they can make the leap without putting the whole airline at risk.
.


To be honest this is the most important part of your post ! BINGO .... and that is why A3 should not venture into this unless they really have their business plan water tight. A failure on a project like this would be suicide for A3. I would want to see better financial figures personally.
 
Andy33
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:58 am

aerolimani wrote:
Do any of the islands even have runways sufficient for a widebody?

Of course, the thing with Greece is that people arrive in ATH, and then scatter far and wide. I am always amazed just how quickly you can find yourself in the middle of nowhere. Is there any one holiday destination that could even support large planes of people arriving from overseas? Greece's tourist infrastructure simply does not have anything like Cancun, Mexico where European widebodies are continually coming and going. Then again, St. Maarten sees big planes, and it's not a big place. Of course, that's a colonial connection, and that's a different dynamic.

Anyhow… I'm rambling now. :|

Rhodes routinely gets 744s from Russia, currently operated by Rossiya, and in the past Transaero. Quite a few island airports see 767s, 787s and A330s from Northern European charter and semi-charter airlines in summer (mostly TUI group and Thomas Cook group carriers but not exclusively). Obviously none of these need as full a fuel load to take off again as if the same planes were flying to North America.
 
alitis
Posts: 245
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:16 pm

[/quote] I could see seasonal SKG service...maybe not daily, but definitely 2 or 3x a week from NYC.[/quote]

If I remember correctly, OA had direct JFK - SKG - ATH on Thursdays in the 70's with 707, in the summer, eastbound only. Perhapd OA260 can scrounge up an old schedule to confirm this.

-Alitis
 
Freshside3
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Re: ATH - North American Routes

Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:22 am

LAXdude1023 wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:

Maybe because UA is in the business of making money and not losing it?

But they are pursuing the Spirit crowd with these "Basic Economy" fares. I'm skeptical that they are making any money on these tickets....just a "predatory" move........


According to them, those fares are profitable.

They have since changed their tune...
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... my-failure
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:27 pm

airzim wrote:
Freshside3 wrote:
airzim wrote:

I suspect it's the other way around. A3 doesn't really gain anything from United except terrible interline prorate tickets beyond ATH flights. Most logical connections flights are to the islands, Israel, Egypt and under 2 hours. Plus there's no real logic to codeshare with UA to any additional EU destinations given the sizable back track. I would assume that A3 would rather capture that traffic directly from local demand and unique bookings from Star Alliance loyalist. (Myself included who bought 4 tickets to Santorini this year from ATH).

On the other side of the coin, there is an opportunity to connect Greece with the USA, through a second EU city. And certainly doesn't involve backtracking.

For example, there is a UA code-share on LOT's LHR-WAW trip. They could certainly do a similar thing on the ATH trips. Especially at airports that are not alliance hubs, such as CDG, MAN, MAD, etc.


The fundamental difference is UA flies to ATH in the months that matter. Why code share with A3 over LHR and split the revenue, when you can carry the passenger the whole way on your own metal? Off season, they can send everything through JV partners.

UA doesn't serve WAW. Therefore the codeshare makes more logical sense routing over LHR, then more lucrative demand over JV hubs. LHR is their most served Europe station, thus also collecting the lion share of the ticket revenue by doing the TATL.

Some sense in that logic here, since UA no longer does code share on A3's FRA-ATH and MUC-ATH trips, since the EWR-ATH is now on. With these gone, does UA/A3 code-share on ANYTHING, at this point?

Yet, AC and A3 continue to code-share with each other.
 
skyduster
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 3:00 am

Re: ATH - North American Routes

Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:10 am

Luxair747SP wrote:
Its a tough market out of ATH.
The yields are not the highest as it is a lot of VFR traffic....


OA940 wrote:
Greece in general gets really packed skies during the summer, and even on the ground. In July when I'm walking in downtown Athens I see more tourists than locals. There is demand to at least 5 American cities (New York, Chicago - both over 1mil. Greeks - Miami, LA and SFO or Vegas), Canada (which has it's own fair share of Greeks, and Australia could all support at least daily flights to Greece year round. And Russians and the Chinese love Greece. A Greek hybrid carrier (Aegean style) could do wonders for Greeks overseas.


I get really sick of repeating this, but diaspora populations usually DO NOT provide enough clientele to sustain flights to the home country. Especially the Greek diaspora. OA's flights to JNB and MEL were loss-making back in the day, subsidized by Greek taxpayers, and ORD wasn't even maintained for long. Lest we forget these garbage start-ups every now and then, like Hellenic Imperial or SkyGreece Airlines that think they've struck gold in some untapped market, only to never get off the ground. And 1 million Greeks in each Chicago and New York? Sorry, man, that's a ridiculous number, especially if we're talking about actual people from Greece and their 1st-generation-American children (after that, connection to the "old country" significantly drops off), we're only looking at tens of thousands in each metro, tops.

The main reason all these carriers have flights to ATH from North America (albeit seasonal), is because Greece is one of the top 20 country-destinations in the world for tourists, with 28 million foreigners having visited in 2016, and a projected 30 million in 2017. While about 90% of visitors come from within Europe (the majority of whom fly directly to the regional airports like HER, CFU, RHO, SKG, JTR, KGS, CHQ, ZTH, JSI, etc), a good million are Americans, many of them catching a Med cruise in Athens, or returning to the US from a Med cruise that terminated in Athens. For North America-ATH travel is not a VFR market. It's a leisure market.

As for the Chinese: up until 2016, Greece barely registered on the radar for Chinese travelers. They've only very recently discovered Greece, and their numbers are growing fast, but from a very low base. I think the projected number of tourists from China for this year is like 200 or 300 thousand (tiny Israel sends about as many tourists to Greece)...compare to 900,000 Americans that visited in 2016, let alone 3 million Brits, 4 million Germans, over a million Italians, and about a million Turks. You're right that Greece is very popular with Russians, but not with Chinese. China's just too far; they will probably top the Americans in numbers one day relatively soon, but they wont come in European numbers. That said, Greece could be becoming a popular long-haul destination for Chinese; the very recent growth in Chinese visitors indicates this. Also, like Americans, the Chinese are interested in Med cruises. There's also growing business travel between China and Greece, with all that Chinese investment that's started pouring in these past couple years...so those CA ATH-PEK flights that are now direct (as well as year-round) are probably carrying a lot of business-class-paying Chinese businessmen. It's also the only flight ATH has to a northeast Asian hub.
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