Quint1
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Rumor: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:06 pm

The following source reports that Qantas executives are apparantly talking with Airbus about converting the 8 postponed A380 to A350-900ULR's.

(https://www.ausbt.com.au/community/view ... 350-900ulr)

Thoughts on this? I thought the 777-8 would have the edge in a potential ULH aircraft order due to its greater payload capabilities, but a conversion would be a good way to get rid of the A380's in the orderbook and it might even open up possibilities for regular A350's to come in and fly some Asian routes.
 
behramjee
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:30 pm

So will they get 1.5 A359LRs for each A380 swapped? If so then 12 A359LRs for 8 A380s would be the end result.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:38 pm

It makes sense from the point of view that it gets a redundant order off Airbus' books while creating a new one, but I'm not convinced the A359LR is the best option for QF, though I do believe it can fly the routes they want it to. Easy to see that the A350 as a whole could be useful for them, but QF's future fleet looks more Boeing-leaning. What can the A350 do that a 777/787 mix can't?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:41 pm

Quint1 wrote:
Thoughts on this?


It depends on where Qantas wants to use them and how much traffic they expect. The article mentions North America and Western Europe so New York is a given along with giving them the ability to restart services to places like Chicago, Washington D.C., Boston, Atlanta, Paris, Frankfurt, Rome and Athens.

Of course, how would resuming direct service to terminated cities impact the A380 feeder services to LAX, DFW and DXB? I expect passengers on those flights connect onwards to the terminated cities.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:54 pm

I would also imagine the order is linked to the 380/744 replacement. I see QF ordering either 778/779 or 359/350J. Is the 350-1 suitable enough for QFs larger routes to the US and Asia? ULH is key, but it needs to have a complimentary model for a larger markets. Point to point will make the 380 too large but a 359 or 789 still too small for many markets.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:58 pm

To be honest, I think it would be smart to do it. While they will get 12 aircraft for the original 8 they purchased, they will be losing seats, but I feel like the pay load would be better for a smaller aircraft that is 95% full than a larger aircraft that is 70%. If they go with the 12 A359ULRs, we would have to assume they will have ~225 seats, totaling about 2700 seats. If they took delivery of the 8 A388s, they would get about 3900 seats. And, while they have more seats, isn't the A380 more expensive to use? And if the A380 isnt full, I feel like they would be losing money.
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:05 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
What can the A350 do that a 777/787 mix can't?


Clear the A380 order book without generating a massive cancellation penalty?

There is no law that QF has to keep these aircraft, either. They can send them over to JQ or they could sell them to someone else who wants A350s. It's a lot easier to sell a surplus A350 than it is to sell a surplus A380.
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EK413
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:07 pm

It's possible QF will pull a SQ by ordering the A350 & run back to Boeing to work out a sweeter deal swapping the A350's for B778/9's? Makes sense considering A350's would be far easy to offload to Boeing than A3Whales.

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Stitch
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:13 pm

DocLightning wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
What can the A350 do that a 777/787 mix can't?

Clear the A380 order book without generating a massive cancellation penalty?


This assumes the Qantas Group is still on the hook for any such penalties.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:18 pm

Stitch wrote:
This assumes the Qantas Group is still on the hook for any such penalties.


If they're not and they still select the A350, that means... :o
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Stitch
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:21 pm

scbriml wrote:
Stitch wrote:
This assumes the Qantas Group is still on the hook for any such penalties.


If they're not and they still select the A350, that means... :o


It would mean that the A350 proved to be the better match for the RFP, I imagine.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:57 pm

What a shame if this comes to fruition, would have loved to finally see a 777 in QF colors.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:48 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
What a shame if this comes to fruition, would have loved to finally see a 777 in QF colors.


It's not a done deal and I'm sure QF management are not foolish enough to repeat ground hog day. AJ has come out already clearly stating the A380 was the wrong aircraft.

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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:50 pm

Stitch wrote:
Quint1 wrote:
Thoughts on this?


It depends on where Qantas wants to use them and how much traffic they expect. The article mentions North America and Western Europe so New York is a given along with giving them the ability to restart services to places like Chicago, Washington D.C., Boston, Atlanta, Paris, Frankfurt, Rome and Athens.

Of course, how would resuming direct service to terminated cities impact the A380 feeder services to LAX, DFW and DXB? I expect passengers on those flights connect onwards to the terminated cities.


JFK and ORD make sense (large metro areas and OneWorld hubs). What do ATL and BOS offer that JFK and ORD don't offer?
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:09 am

EK413 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
What a shame if this comes to fruition, would have loved to finally see a 777 in QF colors.


It's not a done deal and I'm sure QF management are not foolish enough to repeat ground hog day. AJ has come out already clearly stating the A380 was the wrong aircraft.

EK413


I know it isn't a done deal. that is why I said "if"
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:28 am

Might QF be looking to fly to JFK nonstop with a C and W load only? (If QF ever sends the 787 to LAX, that would make more sense to send to JFK than a 747.) There is no real need to carry cargo; Atlas Air carries the cargo between JFK and SYD.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:40 am

I think when it comes to replacement for the A380 QF will order the A380 once again. Or maybe newer version A380.

For the outstanding order I have no idea what they want.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:46 am

MrHMSH wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
What can the A350 do that a 777/787 mix can't?


Clear the A380 order book without generating a massive cancellation penalty?

There is no law that QF has to keep these aircraft, either. They can send them over to JQ or they could sell them to someone else who wants A350s. It's a lot easier to sell a surplus A350 than it is to sell a surplus A380.


Would be strange for JQ to use them, but point taken. Wouldn't Airbus be unhappy at selling them A350s only to see them go elsewhere immediately (to somewhere outside the QF group?



Why would QF buy A350-900ULR if the intention was to resell or pass them on to JQ. If the whole purpose was to get rid of them just to clear the books of A380s, then you would just order the standard A350-900.
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:59 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Might QF be looking to fly to JFK nonstop with a C and W load only? (If QF ever sends the 787 to LAX, that would make more sense to send to JFK than a 747.) There is no real need to carry cargo; Atlas Air carries the cargo between JFK and SYD.


No QF wont have a plane configured especially for JFK/LHR. They have already stated (the A359ULR/778) needs to be around 300 seats so it can be deployed elsewhere in the QF network. QF's first long haul destination with 789's will be LAX from middle of Dec and from middle of Feb some A388 services will be downgraded to 789 as well
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:00 am

After reading the site for so long (although I just started posting a few months ago), I'm so sick of people trying to say whatever they want to prove that A350 doesn't fit with QF and QF must buy 777 saga. Seriously, 777 is already a 25-year-old technology. And QF has money tied up in Airbus due to A380 orders, why can't they order A350s?

Also what makes 777X better at all? Heavier? An apparently higher pax count? I don't think QF is gonna need so many seats that 777X, especially since they're not planning to retire A380 anytime soon (as they're planning the reconfiguration).

From pax perspective A350 is also better. Just had my first A350 flight a few days ago after a 777 flight and man, let me tell you it's much better to be on A350 even though the noise generated from flaps and gear mechanism is noisier. I feel relaxed after a long flight (granted I haven't been on a 787 long-haul flight), and the cabin is much quieter. I can hardly hear engine sounds even though I'm sitting over the wing.

Michael
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:08 am

EK413 wrote:
It's possible QF will pull a SQ by ordering the A350 & run back to Boeing to work out a sweeter deal swapping the A350's for B778/9's? Makes sense considering A350's would be far easy to offload to Boeing than A3Whales.

EK413


Assuming this comes to fruition why would QF do this? QF have a history of operating the complete opposite OEM at JQ as at QF mainline.

QF: Boeing narrowbodies, Airbus widebodies (A330)
JQ: Airbus narrowbodies, Boeing widebodies

The 359 would continue that trend.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:09 am

MrHMSH wrote:
EK413 wrote:

It's not a done deal and I'm sure QF management are not foolish enough to repeat ground hog day. AJ has come out already clearly stating the A380 was the wrong aircraft.

EK413


Where did he say that? I get that QF isn't running for more A380s, but I didn't think he'd said that.


Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce has suggested his airline’s order for the Airbus A380, A330 and Boeing 747-400ER placed in 2000 was, in hindsight, a mistake.

“It is great to be able to say I wish I could get in a time machine and go back to 2000 and [change] the fleet order [made by] not the last CEO, the CEO before that,” Joyce told an Australia Israel Chamber of Commerce lunch event in Sydney on Wednesday.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... der-joyce/

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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:34 am

EK413 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
EK413 wrote:

It's not a done deal and I'm sure QF management are not foolish enough to repeat ground hog day. AJ has come out already clearly stating the A380 was the wrong aircraft.

EK413


Where did he say that? I get that QF isn't running for more A380s, but I didn't think he'd said that.


Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce has suggested his airline’s order for the Airbus A380, A330 and Boeing 747-400ER placed in 2000 was, in hindsight, a mistake.

“It is great to be able to say I wish I could get in a time machine and go back to 2000 and [change] the fleet order [made by] not the last CEO, the CEO before that,” Joyce told an Australia Israel Chamber of Commerce lunch event in Sydney on Wednesday.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... der-joyce/

EK413


If we're dreaming, imagine what QF would look like right now if the 787 had been on time since QF had a firm order for 65 of the aircraft which was reduced to 50 in 2009.

That order would have seen:

"The group’s first 15 aircraft – B787-9s for Jetstar’s international operations – delivered from mid-2013, around three years later than planned. Jetstar was to take delivery of 15 smaller B787-8s in mid-2010.

Fifteen B787-8s follow over the 12 months from the fourth quarter of 2014 for Qantas’ Australian domestic operations and to retire the remaining Qantas B767-300 fleet.

Remaining deliveries, of 20 B787-9s for both Qantas and Jetstar international operations, take place from the fourth quarter of 2015 through to 2017.

Qantas retain the ability to purchase up to 50 additional aircraft. "

http://www.news.com.au/news/qantas-canc ... 1b67b1054b

So right now QF would have 35 787's and no A330's if Boeing had delivered the 787 on time.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:38 am

eamondzhang wrote:
After reading the site for so long (although I just started posting a few months ago), I'm so sick of people trying to say whatever they want to prove that A350 doesn't fit with QF and QF must buy 777 saga. Seriously, 777 is already a 25-year-old technology. And QF has money tied up in Airbus due to A380 orders, why can't they order A350s?

Also what makes 777X better at all? Heavier? An apparently higher pax count? I don't think QF is gonna need so many seats that 777X, especially since they're not planning to retire A380 anytime soon (as they're planning the reconfiguration).

From pax perspective A350 is also better. Just had my first A350 flight a few days ago after a 777 flight and man, let me tell you it's much better to be on A350 even though the noise generated from flaps and gear mechanism is noisier. I feel relaxed after a long flight (granted I haven't been on a 787 long-haul flight), and the cabin is much quieter. I can hardly hear engine sounds even though I'm sitting over the wing.

Michael


Nothing makes the 777X better and newer than the 777, other than the new wing, new engines, new flight deck, new systems architecture, and slightly wider more comfortable interior.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:44 am

Dominion301 wrote:
EK413 wrote:
It's possible QF will pull a SQ by ordering the A350 & run back to Boeing to work out a sweeter deal swapping the A350's for B778/9's? Makes sense considering A350's would be far easy to offload to Boeing than A3Whales.

EK413


Assuming this comes to fruition why would QF do this? QF have a history of operating the complete opposite OEM at JQ as at QF mainline.

QF: Boeing narrowbodies, Airbus widebodies (A330)
JQ: Airbus narrowbodies, Boeing widebodies

The 359 would continue that trend.


That is simply false. Both QF & JQ operated the A330 side by side for the best part of 7 years. In 59 days both QF and JQ will operate the 787 side by side for the good part of the next 20 years. QF also have Boeing widebodies in their current fleet in the form of the 747 which they have been operating now for 46 years and 6 days. Finally QF will order the best plane for their needs not because since JQ flies a widebody Boeing QF should fly a Airbus widebody.
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:48 am

eamondzhang wrote:
After reading the site for so long (although I just started posting a few months ago), I'm so sick of people trying to say whatever they want to prove that A350 doesn't fit with QF and QF must buy 777 saga. Seriously, 777 is already a 25-year-old technology. And QF has money tied up in Airbus due to A380 orders, why can't they order A350s?

Also what makes 777X better at all? Heavier? An apparently higher pax count? I don't think QF is gonna need so many seats that 777X, especially since they're not planning to retire A380 anytime soon (as they're planning the reconfiguration).

From pax perspective A350 is also better. Just had my first A350 flight a few days ago after a 777 flight and man, let me tell you it's much better to be on A350 even though the noise generated from flaps and gear mechanism is noisier. I feel relaxed after a long flight (granted I haven't been on a 787 long-haul flight), and the cabin is much quieter. I can hardly hear engine sounds even though I'm sitting over the wing.

Michael


I rarely facepalm so much at a post. Congrats :bored:

What has the 777s age got to do with ANY of this? Are you seriously trying to convince others that it's too outdated for QF?!

What makes the 777X better? New wings, new engines, new surfaces, new interior, new avionics, enhances aerodynamics, superior payload, superior range...

QF doesn't need the seats. The aircraft will be used for ULH flights, therefore, a lower density cabin will be needed, and on a flight that long, I seriously doubt QF would use 10Y.
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:55 am

Sydscott wrote:
EK413 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:


Where did he say that? I get that QF isn't running for more A380s, but I didn't think he'd said that.


Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce has suggested his airline’s order for the Airbus A380, A330 and Boeing 747-400ER placed in 2000 was, in hindsight, a mistake.

“It is great to be able to say I wish I could get in a time machine and go back to 2000 and [change] the fleet order [made by] not the last CEO, the CEO before that,” Joyce told an Australia Israel Chamber of Commerce lunch event in Sydney on Wednesday.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... der-joyce/

EK413


If we're dreaming, imagine what QF would look like right now if the 787 had been on time since QF had a firm order for 65 of the aircraft which was reduced to 50 in 2009.

That order would have seen:

"The group’s first 15 aircraft – B787-9s for Jetstar’s international operations – delivered from mid-2013, around three years later than planned. Jetstar was to take delivery of 15 smaller B787-8s in mid-2010.

Fifteen B787-8s follow over the 12 months from the fourth quarter of 2014 for Qantas’ Australian domestic operations and to retire the remaining Qantas B767-300 fleet.

Remaining deliveries, of 20 B787-9s for both Qantas and Jetstar international operations, take place from the fourth quarter of 2015 through to 2017.

Qantas retain the ability to purchase up to 50 additional aircraft. "

http://www.news.com.au/news/qantas-canc ... 1b67b1054b

So right now QF would have 35 787's and no A330's if Boeing had delivered the 787 on time.


How would QF have had no A330's? They were delivered from 2002/2005 the initial 10 300's and 4 200's. I think they got more didn't they when the A380 was late and Airbus probably saw QF could do with more again when Boeing kept pushing the 787 back. The last A330 QF got was what 2014?

TBH the 2000 order imo for A380/74E/A330 was correct at the time, quite likely they would have got 777's but the A330's were an added bonus for buying the A380.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:02 am

I would love to see this happen, however, the 777 in Qantas colours have always been a dream.

Something great about the A350 is that Airbus has made it hard for full service airlines like Qantas fit another seat in each row, meaning we can be assured it will be 9 abreast on the 350 when with the 777, it possibly could be the shoulder crunching 10 abreast.

Any way they go, I think both are well fitted for Qantas. :)
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:22 am

EK413 wrote:
It's possible QF will pull a SQ by ordering the A350 & run back to Boeing to work out a sweeter deal swapping the A350's for B778/9's? Makes sense considering A350's would be far easy to offload to Boeing than A3Whales.

EK413


To my knowledge SQ 77X order wasn't a swap of A350s but rather an additional order. Maybe you can clear that point?
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:25 am

EK413 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
EK413 wrote:

It's not a done deal and I'm sure QF management are not foolish enough to repeat ground hog day. AJ has come out already clearly stating the A380 was the wrong aircraft.

EK413


Where did he say that? I get that QF isn't running for more A380s, but I didn't think he'd said that.


Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce has suggested his airline’s order for the Airbus A380, A330 and Boeing 747-400ER placed in 2000 was, in hindsight, a mistake.

“It is great to be able to say I wish I could get in a time machine and go back to 2000 and [change] the fleet order [made by] not the last CEO, the CEO before that,” Joyce told an Australia Israel Chamber of Commerce lunch event in Sydney on Wednesday.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... der-joyce/

EK413


But they did the right thing by ordering 788/9 few years later and it works well for them. I don't see major issue here. And also A359ULR is equally good if not better than 777X.
 
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:52 am

I'm not sure this is substantial enough to even be dignified as a "rumor".... it's just some anonymous post on a chat forum.
Hell, someone from this site could've just as easily dreamed up the same thing.


aviationjunky wrote:
If they go with the 12 A359ULRs, we would have to assume they will have ~225 seats

Why?

SQ is allegedly putting in 25% less seats, and their longest proposed routes are shorter than the likes of SYD-LHR and SYD-JFK that QF seems interested in.
Last edited by LAX772LR on Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:54 am

AsiaTravel wrote:
EK413 wrote:
It's possible QF will pull a SQ by ordering the A350 & run back to Boeing to work out a sweeter deal swapping the A350's for B778/9's? Makes sense considering A350's would be far easy to offload to Boeing than A3Whales.

EK413


To my knowledge SQ 77X order wasn't a swap of A350s but rather an additional order. Maybe you can clear that point?


Correct, SQ traded in A340's in favour of B777's.

viewtopic.php?t=164943

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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:10 am

The advantage of doing this is that it gets the orders off the Airbus books and uses the A380 deposits. Second is that they'll have a more modern clean-sheet aircraft with substantially lower running costs (total) and slightly better passenger comfort in economy. Third, it will enable more product consistency since the 787 product and A350 product will be highly similar (at the armrest level the A350 is only 2.2" wider than the 787... most of the A350's additional space is at the shoulder level).

The disadvantage of this strategy is that the A350 is smaller than the 777X (I'd expect a 4-class A359-ULR to have about 240pax in Qantas configuration. I'm assuming they go 1-1-1 in First, with a cabin of 6 pax, 42 Business and at least 28 Premium Economy at 7-abreast), and the A350-1000 would have around 300 if all the extra space is devoted to Economy class. In addition, whilst the A350 will be a great point-to-point aircraft, if it can do direct Europe-SYD/MEL flights, then its likely that would greatly reduce demand for European flights via PER?

There are some routes in the Qantas network that need high capacity (SYD/MEL to HKG) too, so the A350 may not be able to serve those as efficiently unless frequency can be upgauged. And HKG is currently slot restricted. Also, Qantas have a precious HND slot; they'd probably rather have a 777-9 on that daily route than an A350-1000.

But QF could make both fleet mixes work. 787-9/A359ULR/A350-1000 and 787-9/777-8/777-9 are both viable options. The 787/A350 mix is probably cheaper to operate and more flexible in point-to-point scenarios, but has reduced capacity and might leave more "money on the table." The 787/777X mix is riskier and perhaps more expensive but may be more appropriately-sized.

Another important thing to remember is that we don't know what the final range of the 777-8 will be. Airbus increased the A350ULR's range capabilities, but the 777-8 may lack the ability to perform MEL/SYD - LHR directly. If the 777-8 cannot do that, but the A350ULR can, the A350 will be picked by Qantas.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:19 am

CHI2DFW wrote:
JFK and ORD make sense (large metro areas and OneWorld hubs). What do ATL and BOS offer that JFK and ORD don't offer?


Probably nothing as neither are AA hubs, but QF evidently served them in the past and if they're looking at a dozen frames as some posters have suggested, that is around 6 or more city pairs.


StudiodeKadent wrote:
The disadvantage of this strategy is that the A350 is smaller than the 777X (I'd expect a 4-class A359-ULR to have about 240pax in Qantas configuration. I'm assuming they go 1-1-1 in First, with a cabin of 6 pax, 42 Business and at least 28 Premium Economy at 7-abreast).


Per the rumor these frames would be three-class configurations: Business, Premium Economy and Economy. No First Class.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:24 am

qf789 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Might QF be looking to fly to JFK nonstop with a C and W load only? (If QF ever sends the 787 to LAX, that would make more sense to send to JFK than a 747.) There is no real need to carry cargo; Atlas Air carries the cargo between JFK and SYD.


No QF wont have a plane configured especially for JFK/LHR. They have already stated (the A359ULR/778) needs to be around 300 seats so it can be deployed elsewhere in the QF network. QF's first long haul destination with 789's will be LAX from middle of Dec and from middle of Feb some A388 services will be downgraded to 789 as well


That B789 should continue on to JFK. 254t is way less than 412t when the 744ERs are sent here.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:31 am

Stitch wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
The disadvantage of this strategy is that the A350 is smaller than the 777X (I'd expect a 4-class A359-ULR to have about 240pax in Qantas configuration. I'm assuming they go 1-1-1 in First, with a cabin of 6 pax, 42 Business and at least 28 Premium Economy at 7-abreast).


Per the rumor these frames would be three-class configurations: Business, Premium Economy and Economy. No First Class.


This is one reason I am skeptical of the rumor. I can only see this as true if Qantas plan to abolish First Class entirely (and given their substantial lounge investments in LAX, SYD and MEL, I doubt it). The longer the route, the more First Class demand there will be (since the marginal value of comfort increases on longer routes), and it is premium passengers who prefer point-to-point operations over connections. In addition, JFK and LHR are the airports with the world's largest amount of First Class demand. Putting First on those flights only makes logical sense.

I know Singapore Airlines won't have First on their direct flights to NYC, but their Business product is exceptionally strong (and less dense than Qantas's), and the premiums they expect to charge (and remember SQ in general charges premiums considering how good they are) would crowd out the First market. This is less likely to be the case for Qantas.

So Qantas abolishing First strikes me as the only reason for the A350-ULR to have no First.
 
smi0006
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:46 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
Stitch wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
The disadvantage of this strategy is that the A350 is smaller than the 777X (I'd expect a 4-class A359-ULR to have about 240pax in Qantas configuration. I'm assuming they go 1-1-1 in First, with a cabin of 6 pax, 42 Business and at least 28 Premium Economy at 7-abreast).


Per the rumor these frames would be three-class configurations: Business, Premium Economy and Economy. No First Class.


This is one reason I am skeptical of the rumor. I can only see this as true if Qantas plan to abolish First Class entirely (and given their substantial lounge investments in LAX, SYD and MEL, I doubt it). The longer the route, the more First Class demand there will be (since the marginal value of comfort increases on longer routes), and it is premium passengers who prefer point-to-point operations over connections. In addition, JFK and LHR are the airports with the world's largest amount of First Class demand. Putting First on those flights only makes logical sense.

I know Singapore Airlines won't have First on their direct flights to NYC, but their Business product is exceptionally strong (and less dense than Qantas's), and the premiums they expect to charge (and remember SQ in general charges premiums considering how good they are) would crowd out the First market. This is less likely to be the case for Qantas.

So Qantas abolishing First strikes me as the only reason for the A350-ULR to have no First.


I agree, key guidance is where QF take F. And what they are also looking for around 779 & 35J - HND,HKG,LAX, are markets that still need capacity.

QF also need to start thinking about 738 replacements the 380 deposit don't need to be used on a wide body - 320/321NEO is equal considering especially with the Jetstar group order bringing Synergies.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:46 am

Boeing778X wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:

I rarely facepalm so much at a post. Congrats :bored:

What has the 777s age got to do with ANY of this? Are you seriously trying to convince others that it's too outdated for QF?!

What makes the 777X better? New wings, new engines, new surfaces, new interior, new avionics, enhances aerodynamics, superior payload, superior range...

QF doesn't need the seats. The aircraft will be used for ULH flights, therefore, a lower density cabin will be needed, and on a flight that long, I seriously doubt QF would use 10Y.

QF will most likely fit 10Y just like what they did to 787 with the 9Y (and that's when they claimed they'll get Y customers comfortable). And yes even you admitted that QF doesn't need the seats, so why buying a bigger aircraft for the role and find yourself trouble in trying to fill the seats with decent yields while the smaller A359 can do the same job?

What makes you feel so confident about the aerodynamics, avionics, payload etc.? Yes the plane's got new avionics, but so does A350. 777's basic design is still done in 1990s, even with improvements it's still not an entire new type after all. It's still heavier, especially with the new wings and so forth; therefore you still need more power to fly the plane, which even with new engines will inevitably means higher fuel consumption. And again with aerodynamics, you can only improve so much without a total redesign. Man, I can certainly tell your love with Boeing but please face the fact. This world doesn't only have 777s and even the 777-300ERs are outperformed already, just refer to those stats posted out here on the internet already.

Michael
 
Sydscott
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:42 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Sydscott wrote:
EK413 wrote:

Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce has suggested his airline’s order for the Airbus A380, A330 and Boeing 747-400ER placed in 2000 was, in hindsight, a mistake.

“It is great to be able to say I wish I could get in a time machine and go back to 2000 and [change] the fleet order [made by] not the last CEO, the CEO before that,” Joyce told an Australia Israel Chamber of Commerce lunch event in Sydney on Wednesday.

http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/0 ... der-joyce/

EK413


If we're dreaming, imagine what QF would look like right now if the 787 had been on time since QF had a firm order for 65 of the aircraft which was reduced to 50 in 2009.

That order would have seen:

"The group’s first 15 aircraft – B787-9s for Jetstar’s international operations – delivered from mid-2013, around three years later than planned. Jetstar was to take delivery of 15 smaller B787-8s in mid-2010.

Fifteen B787-8s follow over the 12 months from the fourth quarter of 2014 for Qantas’ Australian domestic operations and to retire the remaining Qantas B767-300 fleet.

Remaining deliveries, of 20 B787-9s for both Qantas and Jetstar international operations, take place from the fourth quarter of 2015 through to 2017.

Qantas retain the ability to purchase up to 50 additional aircraft. "

http://www.news.com.au/news/qantas-canc ... 1b67b1054b

So right now QF would have 35 787's and no A330's if Boeing had delivered the 787 on time.


How would QF have had no A330's? They were delivered from 2002/2005 the initial 10 300's and 4 200's. I think they got more didn't they when the A380 was late and Airbus probably saw QF could do with more again when Boeing kept pushing the 787 back. The last A330 QF got was what 2014?

TBH the 2000 order imo for A380/74E/A330 was correct at the time, quite likely they would have got 777's but the A330's were an added bonus for buying the A380.


They'd never have got the later batches of A332's if the 787's were on time because the 767s and A330s would have both been retired by the 787's coming in.

If the original 787 dates were kept to QF would already have 20 789's in its fleet today. Imagine what a difference that would be making to QF long haul right now.
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:52 am

eamondzhang wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:

I rarely facepalm so much at a post. Congrats :bored:

What has the 777s age got to do with ANY of this? Are you seriously trying to convince others that it's too outdated for QF?!

What makes the 777X better? New wings, new engines, new surfaces, new interior, new avionics, enhances aerodynamics, superior payload, superior range...

QF doesn't need the seats. The aircraft will be used for ULH flights, therefore, a lower density cabin will be needed, and on a flight that long, I seriously doubt QF would use 10Y.

QF will most likely fit 10Y just like what they did to 787 with the 9Y (and that's when they claimed they'll get Y customers comfortable). And yes even you admitted that QF doesn't need the seats, so why buying a bigger aircraft for the role and find yourself trouble in trying to fill the seats with decent yields while the smaller A359 can do the same job?


Because the 777-8 has the payload capacity the A350 doesn't.

What makes you feel so confident about the aerodynamics, avionics, payload etc.?


Image

You're joking, right? You have to be.

Yes the plane's got new avionics, but so does A350. 777's basic design is still done in 1990s, even with improvements it's still not an entire new type after all. It's still heavier, especially with the new wings and so forth


It's also has a common type rating with the 787, with a common engine, common avionics, and training for pilots on both would be inexpensive.

And seriously, don't make the 777 to be some old, going-out-of-style plane. It is still one of the best widebodies out there, and will continue to be.

therefore you still need more power to fly the plane, which even with new engines will inevitably means higher fuel consumption


You're absolutely serious, aren't you?

This quote confirms you know absolutely nothing of the 777X then?

And again with aerodynamics, you can only improve so much without a total redesign. Man, I can certainly tell your love with Boeing but please face the fact. This world doesn't only have 777s and even the 777-300ERs are outperformed already, just refer to those stats posted out here on the internet already.


Rich, coming from a user who seems infatuated with the idea that the 777 is obsolete.

Don't get me wrong, the A350 is a great plane, a beauty! But everything you said is just...wrong.

The real tragedy is that you know absolutely nothing of the advancements incorporated into the 777X.

You really think this plane has more power than outgoing 777 models? What if I told you the GE9X, the engine on the 777X, will produce about 10,000lbs of thrust less than the GE90-115B? Does that sound like more power?

The 777X will have 787 surfaces and laminar flow. Did you know that?

You love to think the 777 is outdated. Want to talk about how the A320neo is an obsolete 1980s design?
Last edited by Boeing778X on Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
qf002
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:23 am

Stitch wrote:
Probably nothing as neither are AA hubs, but QF evidently served them in the past and if they're looking at a dozen frames as some posters have suggested, that is around 6 or more city pairs.


I would expect most of those dozen new aircraft to replace 789s on existing ULH routes so you're not necessarily going to see a massive number of new cities over and above what QF already has planned. Depending on the timing, the 789s would then flow into other parts of the network to replace the 744ERs or oldest A330s.

StudiodeKadent wrote:
I can only see this as true if Qantas plan to abolish First Class entirely (and given their substantial lounge investments in LAX, SYD and MEL, I doubt it).


I actually think there's a very good chance that QF will drop First when the A380s get refurbished.

First doesn't fit with their strategy to increase Asian flying over the next few years (and I suspect possibly to JNB eventually as well). Demand across the Pacific is clearly softening (evidenced by the changes to MEL-LAX planned for early next year) and that just leaves SYD-LHR which might not even be flown using the A380s in a few years and where QF can lean on EK if they need to.

The SYD/MEL lounges are both now over a decade old and are not an indication of current or future strategy. The existing J lounges at both airports are long overdue for a rebuild and could take over the existing F spaces at both airports (ie new two storey lounge at SYD and new lounge with windows for MEL instead of the current dungeon). LAX is a different situation and not anywhere near the same standard as SYD/MEL anyway.
 
AsiaTravel
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:52 am

qf002 wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
I can only see this as true if Qantas plan to abolish First Class entirely (and given their substantial lounge investments in LAX, SYD and MEL, I doubt it).


I actually think there's a very good chance that QF will drop First when the A380s get refurbished.

First doesn't fit with their strategy to increase Asian flying over the next few years (and I suspect possibly to JNB eventually as well). Demand across the Pacific is clearly softening (evidenced by the changes to MEL-LAX planned for early next year) and that just leaves SYD-LHR which might not even be flown using the A380s in a few years and where QF can lean on EK if they need to.

The SYD/MEL lounges are both now over a decade old and are not an indication of current or future strategy. The existing J lounges at both airports are long overdue for a rebuild and could take over the existing F spaces at both airports (ie new two storey lounge at SYD and new lounge with windows for MEL instead of the current dungeon). LAX is a different situation and not anywhere near the same standard as SYD/MEL anyway.


I can't see Qantas First lounge in SYD and MEL leaving anytime. They serve a good amount of QF Platinum members, myself include, and are a great selling points. The difference between the Business lounge and the First one is quite substantial.

Regarding QF removing first class. I think we will know soon enough, QF is suppose to announce the A380 refurb program this friday and for all I know (including from people invited to QF first class events where they gather feedback for a new seat) there will be something about the very front cabin. Leaving no first class in trans-pac is out of question for many of my fellow flyers.
 
RalXWB
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:03 am

EK413 wrote:
It's possible QF will pull a SQ by ordering the A350 & run back to Boeing to work out a sweeter deal swapping the A350's for B778/9's? Makes sense considering A350's would be far easy to offload to Boeing than A3Whales.

EK413


When did Singapore swap 350s for 777s?
 
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kelvin933
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:06 am

RalXWB wrote:
EK413 wrote:
It's possible QF will pull a SQ by ordering the A350 & run back to Boeing to work out a sweeter deal swapping the A350's for B778/9's? Makes sense considering A350's would be far easy to offload to Boeing than A3Whales.

EK413


When did Singapore swap 350s for 777s?

It did not happen, he is talking about the A340-300 switch
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
 
Sydscott
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:11 am

Quint1 wrote:
The following source reports that Qantas executives are apparantly talking with Airbus about converting the 8 postponed A380 to A350-900ULR's.

(https://www.ausbt.com.au/community/view ... 350-900ulr)

Thoughts on this? I thought the 777-8 would have the edge in a potential ULH aircraft order due to its greater payload capabilities, but a conversion would be a good way to get rid of the A380's in the orderbook and it might even open up possibilities for regular A350's to come in and fly some Asian routes.


Bottom line, if one of them can fly SYD-MEL - LHR and/or SYD-NYC direct with a commercially viable payload then it'll have an advantage. If not, then it's a matter of what will best fit into a fleet which will, in future, presumably have a substantial number of 787's.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:58 am

Sydscott wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Sydscott wrote:

If we're dreaming, imagine what QF would look like right now if the 787 had been on time since QF had a firm order for 65 of the aircraft which was reduced to 50 in 2009.

That order would have seen:

"The group’s first 15 aircraft – B787-9s for Jetstar’s international operations – delivered from mid-2013, around three years later than planned. Jetstar was to take delivery of 15 smaller B787-8s in mid-2010.

Fifteen B787-8s follow over the 12 months from the fourth quarter of 2014 for Qantas’ Australian domestic operations and to retire the remaining Qantas B767-300 fleet.

Remaining deliveries, of 20 B787-9s for both Qantas and Jetstar international operations, take place from the fourth quarter of 2015 through to 2017.

Qantas retain the ability to purchase up to 50 additional aircraft. "

http://www.news.com.au/news/qantas-canc ... 1b67b1054b

So right now QF would have 35 787's and no A330's if Boeing had delivered the 787 on time.


How would QF have had no A330's? They were delivered from 2002/2005 the initial 10 300's and 4 200's. I think they got more didn't they when the A380 was late and Airbus probably saw QF could do with more again when Boeing kept pushing the 787 back. The last A330 QF got was what 2014?

TBH the 2000 order imo for A380/74E/A330 was correct at the time, quite likely they would have got 777's but the A330's were an added bonus for buying the A380.


They'd never have got the later batches of A332's if the 787's were on time because the 767s and A330s would have both been retired by the 787's coming in.

If the original 787 dates were kept to QF would already have 20 789's in its fleet today. Imagine what a difference that would be making to QF long haul right now.


I doubt they would have retired the A330 that quickly tbh, they are a good plane for Asia and domestic. Sure they wouldn't have got that later A332's.
 
WIederling
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:49 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
Nothing makes the 777X better and newer than the 777, other than the new wing, new engines, new flight deck, new systems architecture, and slightly wider more comfortable interior.


so it is another 787: lots of smoke and mirrors that hide that all real advance is in the engines :-)

IMU scaling the "thin" 787 wing for the 777X is a weighty dead end.
Murphy is an optimist
 
parapente
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:29 am

It seems (on this site and others) that the 350 has the edge on range and considering the distances involved it has to be the major factor.
In terms of size I would have thought that smaller is actually an advantage.You have to sell non stop at a premium due to fuel consumption.Emirates,ME3 in general and the plethora of legacy carriers to Auz are not just going to 'roll over' and go away.There will be one hell of a 'bun fight' so filling less seats may well be an advantage IMHO.
I think this is particularly true in Y class.Y is (by its name) uber price sensitive yet here Qantas will have to sell at a premium.Thats gonna be tricky I think.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:34 am

Boeing778X wrote:
Because the 777-8 has the payload capacity the A350 doesn't.


And? Even you admit beforehand that QF does not need that much capacity, and you are still trying to say QF needs 778X's capacity which is already higher than A350's? Or let's put it this way, how many airlines have ordered 778X, other than MEB3, and how many has ordered A350s?

It's also has a common type rating with the 787, with a common engine, common avionics, and training for pilots on both would be inexpensive.

A350 also got a common type rating with A330 which QF currently has, and transfer to/from A380 is not that difficult at all. Also, since when does GE9X, a derivative from GE90-115B, "a common engine" with GENx? It really showed that you knew nothing, not me.

And seriously, don't make the 777 to be some old, going-out-of-style plane. It is still one of the best widebodies out there, and will continue to be.

It's also one of the few widebodies out there, so not many competitions anyway. Yes 777 was a great plane when introduced, especially over the long range like -300ER, but just face it, the world is seeing less and less 777s flying around. I don't have to pretend it, it's the simple fact. Do some research please, and don't throw nonsense out here.

This quote confirms you know absolutely nothing of the 777X then?

I know you knew nothing then. Seriously, this is some basic sense.

You really think this plane has more power than outgoing 777 models? What if I told you the GE9X, the engine on the 777X, will produce about 10,000lbs of thrust less than the GE90-115B? Does that sound like more power?

The 777X will have 787 surfaces and laminar flow. Did you know that?

You love to think the 777 is outdated. Want to talk about how the A320neo is an obsolete 1980s design?

And you try to blame me saying it's producing more power than -115B when I'm comparing with A350s. How naive. If you wanna discuss A320neo, why not discuss 737MAX which is an even older design and many pilots from NG generation I knew personally complain about?

And I won't waste one more minute to someone who actively try to promote 778X and in a way bashing A350s. It's simply not worth it. One last reminder, fly on one first before saying all these things.
 
redroo
Posts: 491
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Re: Qantas to convert remaining A380 order to A350-900ULR (rumor)

Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:24 am

Interesting discussion.

It's worth remembering when debating the A350 and 777 what qantas needs from this plane. The holy grail of non stop to London is one requirement. Another requirement is an eventual replacement for the A380 that offers more capacity than the 789.

IMHO the A380s will not be replaced with more A380s so a higher capacity aircraft that is flexible to do LAX, HKG and LHR is required. The A350-1000 will struggle with LAX to SYD and MEL. I can't see QF operating 789, A350ULH and A350-1000. That's a lot of types for a small company.

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