Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1616
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:41 am

But, what I don't understand in this situation is, if this was deemed such a hefty typhoon, why wasn't the airport closed? By keeping the airport open they gave airlines a choice to fly in or not. I don't get the commotion afterwards when KLM did.
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3981
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:49 am

zeke wrote:
I looked at the article I saw no reference to carrying an extra 90 minutes of fuel, maybe they have removed it.

It (still) says "Er is van tevoren een inschatting gemaakt of de landing in Hong Kong mogelijk zou zijn en er was voor anderhalf uur extra brandstof meegenomen, mocht het toestel moeten uitwijken.".
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
Lord Flashheart, 1989
 
skyhawkmatthew
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:42 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:50 am

b747400erf wrote:
Having the capability to use it does not mean a pilot is going to try it out in such extreme conditions. In the simulator sometimes okay but on a real flight, you trust your judgement as a pilot and do not leave a difficult landing to the automatics unless there is a reason.


Let me turn this around:
Having the machismo to attempt an approach in these conditions does not mean a pilot is going to do a manual landing. In the simulator sometimes okay (I've had a go at 60 kt in the sim...) but on a real flight, you trust your judgement as a pilot and may decide to leave a difficult landing to the automatics unless there is a reason not to.

As I said above, the 777's autoland capability, just like that on most heavy jets these days, is fantastic. As Zeke pointed out, the system doesn't know what the visibility etc is like, or what category ILS it is flying. It just follows the glideslope and localiser until it arrives at 50 feet, then lands the thing. If you're within crosswind limits, there's nothing stopping it. I'd guess most of the captains I fly with would choose to do an autoland in those conditions: let the aeroplane do the hard work, while you monitor (with hands on the controls just in case) to make sure everything is going correctly. There's no prize for being a hero.
Qantas - The Spirit of Australia.
 
DALCE
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:04 am

Actually many of the replies in this topic makes me laugh/cry. Does anyone really think that this flight landed at HKG if there was 1 parameter outside of the legal limits?
These pilots are very well trained, and would never risk their own lives nor those of the passengers on board if they could not get the job done.
Let alone the money involved in law-suits if they did an illegal landing for whatever reason.

The top prize goes to user VR-HKG who dares to make a comparison with the TFN disaster. The only link I could think of is that both flights are 747's.... You are either not blesses with knowledge/intelligence, or you are stirring up the pot here for whatever reason.
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,223,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:40 am

Certainly not an autoland.

Nice job by the crew.
 
Amsterdam
Posts: 450
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:52 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:57 am

And why is this guy in this thread talking about Tenerife and saying they've learned nothing from it...?

Pathetic comment
 
worldranger
Posts: 260
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:07 pm

skyhawkmatthew wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Having the capability to use it does not mean a pilot is going to try it out in such extreme conditions. In the simulator sometimes okay but on a real flight, you trust your judgement as a pilot and do not leave a difficult landing to the automatics unless there is a reason.


Let me turn this around:
Having the machismo to attempt an approach in these conditions does not mean a pilot is going to do a manual landing. In the simulator sometimes okay (I've had a go at 60 kt in the sim...) but on a real flight, you trust your judgement as a pilot and may decide to leave a difficult landing to the automatics unless there is a reason not to.

As I said above, the 777's autoland capability, just like that on most heavy jets these days, is fantastic. As Zeke pointed out, the system doesn't know what the visibility etc is like, or what category ILS it is flying. It just follows the glideslope and localiser until it arrives at 50 feet, then lands the thing. If you're within crosswind limits, there's nothing stopping it. I'd guess most of the captains I fly with would choose to do an autoland in those conditions: let the aeroplane do the hard work, while you monitor (with hands on the controls just in case) to make sure everything is going correctly. There's no prize for being a hero.


With all due respect - I don't know a single Captain (myself included) who would leave it to the auto land until 50'.

Experience tells us to 'gain the feel'. In fact by hand flying I can tell how much work I'm doing to keep it in the cross hairs - that becomes part of my decision making on whether to continue and what will be needed transitioning.

Note: Most carries consider an airport closed with > 65 knots
 
hz747300
Posts: 2417
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:15 pm

I live right next to the airport and it was a doozy. I was surprised to hear that any flight landed as this was during the T10 stage and windows & trees had already been affected in the neighborhood. While I appreciate the skill of the pilots, I do question the concept of landing in a storm like this. The reason they ask you to stay inside during a Typhoon is so that emergency personnel don't have go into danger to rescue you. Similar for the airport, once you have landed, there is a real or perceived obligation of the airport staff to service the plane exposing them to the 93kts, high tide, and what was at some points a blinding rain.

During the storm, the only blip I saw on Flight Radar was an Air Hong Kong A300 to Narita, but it was not moving. I understand that KLM probably flew around and past some of the bands as they rotated around HK and the Pearl River Delta, but I think they would have been wiser to divert.
Keep on truckin'...
 
devron
Posts: 367
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:56 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:22 pm

FTFS101 wrote:
As a passenger on this plane I can say the descent was bumpy but not extreme and the landing was smooth (I have had far worse in Perth, Australia); admittedly though I was near the front of the plane, that may have improved the experience
And yes credit to the ground staff who went outside to service plane, it was done sensibly though as they came out but stopped and waited to the conditions calmed down; hence the reason there was an hour wait to disembark the aircraft


Thanks for this Feedback how did you get to the City and that is your take on this discussion?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8475
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:42 pm

Posted SCMP article suggests weather was acceptable to make an attempt. The crew attempted and landed safely. I heard somewhere only the right side of the storm has strongest winds. May be there was an opening at that time. Two flights tried one diverted and one landed.
All posts are just opinions.
 
catiii
Posts: 3644
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:16 pm

vr-hkg wrote:
All that was needed was a gust or windshear at the wrong moment and this was the next CI642. KLM has forgotten the lessons of Tenerife, it seems, and impatience rules the day once more. Prudence would have recommended diverting elsewhere. The pax were going to be hugely inconvenienced regardless, with no public transport, airport essentially shut down and full of stranded pax, and hotels likely in chaos too. Far better to arrive a day late and safely than to take this unnecessary risk.


Out of curiosity, how many hours do you have in heavy transports flying into weather, and what "lessons of Tenerife" were "forgotten?"
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2368
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:21 pm

I once landed at ATL just before a massive thunderstorm hit ... we did a go-around on the first try, circled back, and literally hit the storm front halfway down the runway (it's something to hear GPWS yelling "PULL UP" while rolling out; the pressure differential was THAT large).

The explanation from the pilot was that whatever the ground delay may be, he'd much rather be on the ground, then trying to fly around or through, that storm. Not many on the airplane disagreed with him, even though we had to wait over an hour for the ground halt to be lifted so we could pull into the gate. It was a ferocious storm.
 
TropicalSky
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri May 05, 2017 1:37 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:48 pm

zeke wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Autoland is usually limited to 5 knots of wind.


Autoland limits

Headwind (HW) Tailwind (TW) Crosswind (XW)

737NG HW 25 kts TW 15 kts XW 20 kts
747 HW 25 kts TW 15 kts XW 25 kts
757 HW 25 kts TW 10 kts XW 25 kts
767 HW 25 kts TW 10 kts XW 25 kts
777 HW 25 kts TW 15 kts XW 25 kts
787 HW 25 kts TW 15 kts XW 25 kts
A330 HW 35 kts, TW 10 kts, XW 20 kts
A340 HW 35 kts, TW 10 kts, XW 20 kts
A350 HW 40 kts TW 15 kts XW 25 kts

Fellow pilot here....love the facts that you use in your posts
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:31 am

KLM got really bad press in HK for landing during the typhoon.

Just after the airport opened, an aircraft crashed during a typhoon landing.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:35 am

BestWestern wrote:
KLM got really bad press in HK for landing during the typhoon.

Just after the airport opened, an aircraft crashed during a typhoon landing.

Where was that? What airplane?
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:00 am

Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:07 am

BestWestern wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/427291.stm

That's the CI MD-11 crash back in 1999...18 years ago... What's that to do with anything? Just the press going off target again...
 
carlokiii
Posts: 188
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:03 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:13 am

I guess he meant that considering the CI accident during a typhoon 18 years ago (a year after the new HKG opened)... HK tends to be wary of these types of situation, hence the bad press.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:19 am

carlokiii wrote:
I guess he meant that considering the CI accident during a typhoon 18 years ago, HK tends to be wary of these types of situation, hence the bad press.

Yes, probably. But the landing characteristics of the MD-11 has nothing to do with that of the 744, and the China Airlines of 1999 has nothing to do with KLM of today, safety-wise. All they have in common was that they landed at the same airport. As has been stated here, all parameters were within limits (of course), so bad press is due to lack of knowledge.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15304
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:58 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
As has been stated here, all parameters were within limits (of course), so bad press is due to lack of knowledge.


That may have been stated on here by some people however it is not true. For example the tailwind component after passing the initial approach fix at LIMES exceeded parameters.

It would also mean the splays used in the procedure design for the missed approach would have been invalid. Also the approach onto 07L has a special engine out procedure that would have been compromised in the event they had and engine failure and had to go around.

Those parameters are in place so that aircraft do not fly through the LOC on such an approach. If they landed the other direction onto 25R that could have resulted in the aircraft making contact with the terrain on the right hand side of the LOC.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:08 am

Bad press = bad press.

Hong Kong takes typhoons very seriously, no deaths in HK in comparison to 14 in Macau and shenzhen is testimony to this.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
76er
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:24 am

zeke wrote:
That may have been stated on here by some people however it is not true. For example the tailwind component after passing the initial approach fix at LIMES exceeded parameters.

It would also mean the splays used in the procedure design for the missed approach would have been invalid. Also the approach onto 07L has a special engine out procedure that would have been compromised in the event they had and engine failure and had to go around..


Excuse my ignorance in this matter Zeke, I haven't operated into HKG for a few years, but I don't seem to recall anything you just mentioned. Have I just never read the approach plates correctly, of are we talking specific CX procedures here? No offence intended, just plain curiosity.
 
Flanker7
Posts: 490
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:48 am

Well pardon my ignorance but shouldn't HGK been closed altogether in that case, afterall they where also cleared to land.
Flying blue only if possible
 
Flanker7
Posts: 490
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:00 pm

And if the media is up in arms about it they should maybe question why the airport stayed open to begin with.
Flying blue only if possible
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15304
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:22 pm

76er wrote:
Excuse my ignorance in this matter Zeke, I haven't operated into HKG for a few years, but I don't seem to recall anything you just mentioned. Have I just never read the approach plates correctly, of are we talking specific CX procedures here? No offence intended, just plain curiosity.


Your IAP chart provider will have a summary of ICAO standards and rules of the air. For example in the Jeppesen ATC section they state that Flight Procedures (DOC 8168) IAPs are constructed on basic criteria which includes the omnidirectional wind speed up to 60 kts.

Flanker7 wrote:
Well pardon my ignorance but shouldn't HGK been closed altogether in that case, afterall they where also cleared to land.


The role of ATC is to facilitate aircraft movements, it is the responsibility of the pilot in command to either accept or reject a clearance, to land or to conduct a missed approach. The ATIS information D which was in force when KLM landed stated 07L RWY surface wet, significant windshear and significant turbulance forecast, wind 060/49 max 66 kts RVR 800m cloud few 1200 ft, SCT 2500 ft in heavy rain temperature 27, dew-point 25 QNH 985 HPA. The KLM crew reported to TWR via radio the wind experienced in the last 1000 ft was 060 at 70 kts.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
CH47A
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:06 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:34 pm

I am having trouble finding anything that supports that idea of the media having been up in arms about that landing.

Three sources I have on my list for Hong Kong show the following:

South China Morning Post - nothing
Channel NewsAsia - nothing
The Standard - nothing

Could somebody help me, please?

Thank you.
 
Flanker7
Posts: 490
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:50 pm

CH47A wrote:
I am having trouble finding anything that supports that idea of the media having been up in arms about that landing.

Three sources I have on my list for Hong Kong show the following:

South China Morning Post - nothing
Channel NewsAsia - nothing
The Standard - nothing

Could somebody help me, please?

Thank you.


I was referring to bad press, to me that is a bit up in arms.
Flying blue only if possible
 
User avatar
c933103
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:10 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Posted SCMP article suggests weather was acceptable to make an attempt. The crew attempted and landed safely. I heard somewhere only the right side of the storm has strongest winds. May be there was an opening at that time. Two flights tried one diverted and one landed.

The airport was on the right hand side of the typhoon.
It's pointless to attempt winning internet debate. 求同存異. よく見て・よく聞いて・よく考える
(≧▽≦) Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan! Nyan!
(≧▽≦) Meow Meow Meow! Meow Meow Meow Meow!
 
CH47A
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:06 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:17 pm

Flanker7 wrote:
CH47A wrote:
I am having trouble finding anything that supports that idea of the media having been up in arms about that landing.

Three sources I have on my list for Hong Kong show the following:

South China Morning Post - nothing
Channel NewsAsia - nothing
The Standard - nothing

Could somebody help me, please?

Thank you.


I was referring to bad press, to me that is a bit up in arms.


I appreciate that you are helping me with my dilemma. And I agree that "up in arms" = "bad press" but I would really like some idea of what this bad press consists of. Radio? Television? Other forms of media? Could you please provide an example or two?

Thank you.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2997
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:58 pm

Just to add to the debate:

Huricane Harvey in Texas has resulted in the following operational decisions by KLM and United Airlines:

Non-stop service on AMS-IAH on Saturday August 26, 2017:

- United - UA21 B772 N78008 dep. 11.19am George Bush Intercontinental Houston (IAH / KIAH) = Operating
- KLM - KL661 B744 dep. 10.00 am = Cancelled

So now it is overly cautious KLM ??
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 738
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:30 pm

Is IAH open or forecast to close? That would be a good reason to cancel, especially if alternates were also affected.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
User avatar
Coronado990
Posts: 1517
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:51 pm

factsonly wrote:
Just to add to the debate:

Huricane Harvey in Texas has resulted in the following operational decisions by KLM and United Airlines:

Non-stop service on AMS-IAH on Saturday August 26, 2017:

- United - UA21 B772 N78008 dep. 11.19am George Bush Intercontinental Houston (IAH / KIAH) = Operating
- KLM - KL661 B744 dep. 10.00 am = Cancelled

So now it is overly cautious KLM ??



I would think United would want to get their plane home and KLM doesn't want an aircraft stuck at an outstation.
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
DDR
Posts: 1734
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:09 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:01 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
factsonly wrote:
Just to add to the debate:

Huricane Harvey in Texas has resulted in the following operational decisions by KLM and United Airlines:

Non-stop service on AMS-IAH on Saturday August 26, 2017:

- United - UA21 B772 N78008 dep. 11.19am George Bush Intercontinental Houston (IAH / KIAH) = Operating
- KLM - KL661 B744 dep. 10.00 am = Cancelled

So now it is overly cautious KLM ??



I would think United would want to get their plane home and KLM doesn't want an aircraft stuck at an outstation.


Agree with this statement. Two very different situations. UA also has the option of diverting to another UA hub if needed.
 
subramak1
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:21 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:56 pm

UA could divert to DFW for all you know. The weather in DFW as I sit here is just fine.

Subu
 
Luke1970
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:53 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:17 pm

zeke wrote:
Your IAP chart provider will have a summary of ICAO standards and rules of the air. For example in the Jeppesen ATC section they state that Flight Procedures (DOC 8168) IAPs are constructed on basic criteria which includes the omnidirectional wind speed up to 60 kts.


I commend you for your theoretical knowledge ;-) but I don't think LIMES and design/construction of the procedural entry onto ILS are relevant. Wouldn't be surprised if they vectored themselves at 2000 or 3000 ft (i.s.o. 1500ft) onto the ILS since there was no one else.

And for everyone else in this thread;
-for sure the approach was manual flown. Only low vis, use of AP is ofcourse mandatory.
-if any Wx limits (publicly available to HKG authorities) were exceeded regarding this approach it will for sure result in an investigation.
-guess network decision of CX to cancel ops is logical, but unrelated to individual flights, more related to complete network disruption and restart.
-guess for decision to cancel KLM flt to IAH; that would be a network decision too; a likely diversion and then try to find a way to get pax to IAH, vs rescheduling/rerouting pax from AMS to IAH/destination. Guess latter was more convenient in this case, while with the HKG flt, the risk that the flight would divert was more attractive.

Kind regards,
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:48 pm

CH47A wrote:
Flanker7 wrote:
CH47A wrote:
I am having trouble finding anything that supports that idea of the media having been up in arms about that landing.

Three sources I have on my list for Hong Kong show the following:

South China Morning Post - nothing
Channel NewsAsia - nothing
The Standard - nothing

Could somebody help me, please?

Thank you.


I was referring to bad press, to me that is a bit up in arms.


I appreciate that you are helping me with my dilemma. And I agree that "up in arms" = "bad press" but I would really like some idea of what this bad press consists of. Radio? Television? Other forms of media? Could you please provide an example or two?

Thank you.


A handful of social media people have to wake up outraged every day, and that is the only bad press. It was a big overstatement by BestWestern but they are known to make these kinds of pot stirring statements for dramatic effect.
 
SonomaFlyer
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:01 pm

The wind was right down the runway and though there were alerts for windshear etc, there was none at the critical points of the approach. They had the fuel to divert but given the conditions on approach, the Captain made the call. Yes this was a typhoon and yes there will be pilots who disagree but the degree of difficulty and risk is not what some make it out to be.
 
TigerFlyer
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:51 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:57 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
The wind was right down the runway and though there were alerts for windshear etc, there was none at the critical points of the approach. They had the fuel to divert but given the conditions on approach, the Captain made the call. Yes this was a typhoon and yes there will be pilots who disagree but the degree of difficulty and risk is not what some make it out to be.


Exactly. This was a non event. Landing an 800,000 pound heavy in some rain with a headwind down the runway is a piece of cake. Gusty crosswinds a different matter. Everything within limits. Weather is weather. Just because it's called a "typhoon" doesn't make it any more or less dangerous. I'll take that any day over some of the harry approaches I've flown around thunderstorms.
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 811
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:33 pm

TigerFlyer wrote:

Exactly. This was a non event. Landing an 800,000 pound heavy in some rain with a headwind down the runway is a piece of cake. Gusty crosswinds a different matter. Everything within limits. Weather is weather. Just because it's called a "typhoon" doesn't make it any more or less dangerous. I'll take that any day over some of the harry approaches I've flown around thunderstorms.


While I agree with your assessment, landing a 400 at 800,000 lbs would have been waaaay over max landing weight. Assume he was probably somewhere south of 630,000 lbs.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8475
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:43 pm

c933103 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Posted SCMP article suggests weather was acceptable to make an attempt. The crew attempted and landed safely. I heard somewhere only the right side of the storm has strongest winds. May be there was an opening at that time. Two flights tried one diverted and one landed.

The airport was on the right hand side of the typhoon.


Have a look at tweet pic in #2. Green indicates isolated thunder stroms. There may not be any thing at the time of landing. There are at least 3 other planes going through much severe weather.
All posts are just opinions.
 
N212R
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:21 pm

Luke1970 wrote:
I commend you for your theoretical knowledge ;-) but I don't think LIMES and design/construction of the procedural entry onto ILS are relevant.


Even some of the most active and vocal posters here on Airliners are not immune to incorrect presumption. Thank you for your correction.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7101
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:23 am

The headline of this thread reads "KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon". That is plain wrong.

The linked article says the wind speed was between 80 and 113 km/h, which converts to 50 - 70 mph, or 43 - 61 knots, or 22 - 31 m/s. That is no typhoon. Strong wind, yes, Typhoon, no.

Japanese official definition is that a typhoon has 64 - 84 knots wind, strong typhoon 85 - 104 knots, and violent typhoon 105 knots or more.

The hurricane Harvey has been mentioned because it forced KLM (and others) to cancel flights. That's a category 4 hurricane, and as such it is an entirely different sort of animal. U.S. definition of a category 4 hurricane is 113 - 136 knots wind.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15304
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:47 am

Luke1970 wrote:
I commend you for your theoretical knowledge ;-) but I don't think LIMES and design/construction of the procedural entry onto ILS are relevant. Wouldn't be surprised if they vectored themselves at 2000 or 3000 ft (i.s.o. 1500ft) onto the ILS since there was no one else.


The clearance was for the procedural ILS 07L via LIMES and TONIC with no ATC speed control. No self vectoring around there you have two adjacent airports MFN and SZX, the 07L approach is on the edge of the ZGGG FIR. And everything I also stated about windshear, microburst, engine out, terrain, and the missed approach is entirely relevant.

Luke1970 wrote:
-guess network decision of CX to cancel ops is logical, but unrelated to individual flights, more related to complete network disruption and restart.


You make it sound like it was just CX that cancelled flights of the 100+ carriers that operate into HKG some with multiple flights, only two flights attempted a landing. What is more accurate to say is CX and over 100 other carriers suspended operations while a single KLM and single Ethiopian flight attempted to land at HKG.

Luke1970 wrote:
guess for decision to cancel KLM flt to IAH; that would be a network decision too; a likely diversion and then try to find a way to get pax to IAH


More like the Dutch press made KLM look like cowboys for landing in HKG in those conditions which everyone else suspended operations for on safety grounds. They are not alone, this morning a Scoot 787 was advised by tower of a microburst alert and windshear -25kts, instead of not taking off they took off and encountered -30 Kts winshear at 600 ft. Meanwhile 20 other flights have diverted.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15304
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:52 am

prebennorholm wrote:
The linked article says the wind speed was between 80 and 113 km/h, which converts to 50 - 70 mph, or 43 - 61 knots, or 22 - 31 m/s. That is no typhoon. Strong wind, yes, Typhoon, no.


It was Typhoon Hato, the KLM crew said they experienced wind of 060/70 kts below 1000 ft after landing to ATC.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:50 am

KL's HKG was cancelled today as other airlines operate in far less tricky situations of a tropical storm a lot less severe than last week. (But still far from optimal operating conditions with go-arounds)

METAR VHHH 270130Z 13027G43KT 4700 SHRA FEW015 SCT028 28/25 Q1001 TEMPO 3000 SHRA=

Something tells me that KL have invited some airmen for tea and biscuits.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
masA380
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:54 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:09 am

All I can see is hardcore KLM fans jumping to its defend and downplaying the situation. I'd have thought it's unwise to attempt an approach considering the weather conditions at the time.
 
Pacific
Posts: 1148
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2000 2:46 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:08 am

prebennorholm wrote:
The headline of this thread reads "KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon". That is plain wrong.


The eye did not pass over the airport per sentence so yes indeed, technically, the 'middle' is incorrect. The storm passed some 60km south of the city and a little closer than that to the airport.

However, the KLM did land under severe effects of a typhoon. It also landed in the "middle of" a typhoon event so linguistically, the headline may actually be correct.

As for non-hurricane force winds at the airport, Hong Kong's very hilly terrain creates many microclimates (and wind shear) and there may be localised sheltering effects provided at ground level by these hills. However, out at sea e.g Cheung Chau and Waglan Island, a 10-minute mean of over 120km/h was recorded while Hato had an estimated 10-minute mean of 150km/h. I believe the US uses 1-minute means and that was close to 110mph, a top-end Cat 2 storm.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:20 am

masA380 wrote:
All I can see is hardcore KLM fans jumping to its defend and downplaying the situation. I'd have thought it's unwise to attempt an approach considering the weather conditions at the time.

Everyone could have died! I hope they fire the pilots over this! Only KLM fanboys would dare defend this!
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2188
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:30 am

b747400erf wrote:
masA380 wrote:
All I can see is hardcore KLM fans jumping to its defend and downplaying the situation. I'd have thought it's unwise to attempt an approach considering the weather conditions at the time.

Everyone could have died! I hope they fire the pilots over this! Only KLM fanboys would dare defend this!

Yes, why not be alarmist when you can? :roll: Where exactly do you work? The Daily Mail? NY Post?
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8358
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: KLM 747 lands in HKG in the middle of a typhoon

Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:41 am

So Malev, why was today's flight cancelled?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos