Capn
Topic Author
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Delta gates at airports for expansion

Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:56 pm

First post,
I was hoping that aviation buffs and employees ,could provide us with actual gate counts and the near term possibility of Delta increasing their number.
Basically interested in
Ord
Aus
Sea
Lax, how many open now and have they started to renovate any yet.
Bos
Sjc
San
BNA
Plus any others that antlers are familiar with
Thanks in advance
Last edited by atcsundevil on Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited grammar in title
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DL777200LR
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:55 pm

Phase III for JFK to extend A concourse in terminal 4 was supposed to have started already, however no construction has begun and I'm not sure where it stands at the moment.
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B752OS
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:08 pm

At BOS, they're waiting on Massport to finish the Terminal B expansion project so WN can make the move from Terminal A over to Terminal B. That will give DL an additional 5 mainline gates in Terminal A to work with. Once the Terminal B project is done and WN makes the move, that should give DL 20 gates in BOS.
 
jonair8
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:11 pm

At SEA, DL has the following gates:

Concourse A:
A1, A2, A3, A4, (A12 A13 A14 common use)

Concourse B:
B1, B3, B4, B5/A, B7/A, B9, B11 (B15 common use)

South Satellite:
S1/A, S2, S3, S4, S5, S6, S7, S8, S9 (other assorted S gates based on operational need like S10, S12, S15, S16) and sometimes S7 and S9 are used by the likes of ANA and Hainan

For Seattle, Delta can't get gates soon enough and would love to get their hands on anything that pops up. B5 and B7 used to be widebody capable, and HA even operated their 767s at those gates for a little bit. Delta has now converted them to small narrowbody gates that are capable of handling 2 E75, CRJ, 717, or 737 aircraft at once.

As far as LAX goes, they have use of all gates in Terminal 2 and 3. Terminal 2 has already been renovated before Delta moved there a couple months ago, but Terminal 3 is in the same state as it was when TWA was there. There are plans to slowly rebuild the whole Terminal 3. Eventually, Delta will be able to have a couple of exclusive TBIT gates as they build a connector between Terminal 3 and TBIT in the master plan.

In SJC, Delta uses gates 4, 5, and 6 in Terminal A. They might also sometimes use gate 1 for RONs.
 
717atOGG
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:18 pm

At SEA it's a CUTE system, but I think they have about 10 gates, maybe more. When the expansion of N occurs, they could get more gates, but probably not a lot. I believe SEA is a rolling hub, though, so the amount of gates isn't very relevant.
Long live the Boeing 757!
 
jubguy3
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:24 pm

The entire SLC airport is being rebuilt, the gatecount will decrease by about 6 if I remember correctly (when all phases open in 2024) but all gates will be able to handle large aircraft as opposed to the large amount of CRJ jet gates that SLC has right now. The new airport will have 75 gates, I don't know how many will belong to delta but they currently have 74 gates at SLC and once the new airport opens they should likely have around 8 less than they do right now (but again, what qualifies as a "gate" in the regional jet concourse is iffy because they define any door onto the airfield as a gate - most gate counters are shared by 4 doors. Delta has stated that they are reducing CRJ capacity at SLC over the next few years and the concourse for regional jets is already underutilized - its important that this is a reduction in gates but not gate capacity. which isn't really what you're asking about but oops).
 
packmedic
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:48 pm

717atOGG wrote:
At SEA it's a CUTE system, but I think they have about 10 gates, maybe more. When the expansion of N occurs, they could get more gates, but probably not a lot. I believe SEA is a rolling hub, though, so the amount of gates isn't very relevant.


All N gates at SEA belong to AS, even after the expansion. DL only has gates in A, B, and S concourse
A319 A320 A321 A333 A388 AT72 B717 B733 B734 B734C B735 B73G B738 B739 B744 B752 B764 B772 B789 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9 DH8D E135 E140 E145 E170 E175 E190 MD80 MD90
 
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redzeppelin
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:04 pm

This may be relevant:
https://slcairport.com/blog/2017/08/slc ... perations/

The SLC airport just announced preparations to begin hardstand operations to support additional flights, but without further details -- no specific indication of which airline will use them, or where the bus gates will be located, etc. About half of the DL/OO CRJ gates on the E concourse have already been demolished as part of the new terminal construction, so they have already absorbed that loss. I have to assume that this is just a stopgap during construction, but that isn't specifically stated either. AFAIK, no more of the existing gates should be closed until the new concourses start to open, and that will occur in several stages.
 
atl100million
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:05 pm

Capn wrote:
First post,
I was hoping that aviation buffs and employees ,could provide us with actual gate counts and the near term possibility of Delta increasing their number.
Basically interested in
Ord
Aus
Sea
Lax, how many open now and have they started to renovate any yet.
Bos
Sjc
San
BNA
Plus any others that antlers are familiar with
Thanks in advance

DL said it had requested additional gates at DFW before the renovation of terminal E began which is now complete. It isn't clear how many gates they will get but DL has said they will add some new destinations from DFW and upgrade s anome flights from large regional jets to mainline.

As for LAX, there has been some cosmetic renovation in terminal 3 and likely will be more but the primary focus for the next several years is building a new headhouse (the ticketing/baggage claim) areas and joining the two terminals behind security. DL also has access to gates in the TBIT during the renovation of terminals 2 and 3 with incentives to gain more TBIT gates tied to the number of new flights DL adds.
 
717atOGG
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:19 pm

packmedic wrote:
717atOGG wrote:
At SEA it's a CUTE system, but I think they have about 10 gates, maybe more. When the expansion of N occurs, they could get more gates, but probably not a lot. I believe SEA is a rolling hub, though, so the amount of gates isn't very relevant.


All N gates at SEA belong to AS, even after the expansion. DL only has gates in A, B, and S concourse

Yeah, but they might some flights that depart out of D over to N, allowing other airlines to move to D, giving gates to DL.
Long live the Boeing 757!
 
Capn
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:25 pm

Great reply all, exactly the kind of info I was looking for'. I've been retired for over 20 years and don't get out much anymore, but I've always been an avgeek way before I became a pilot or it was fashionable.
I have really enjoyed airliner.net and other sites to keep up.
Hope more will join in'
Thanks
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jubguy3
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:45 pm

redzeppelin wrote:
This may be relevant:
https://slcairport.com/blog/2017/08/slc ... perations/

The SLC airport just announced preparations to begin hardstand operations to support additional flights, but without further details -- no specific indication of which airline will use them, or where the bus gates will be located, etc. About half of the DL/OO CRJ gates on the E concourse have already been demolished as part of the new terminal construction, so they have already absorbed that loss. I have to assume that this is just a stopgap during construction, but that isn't specifically stated either. AFAIK, no more of the existing gates should be closed until the new concourses start to open, and that will occur in several stages.


Wow, I didn't know about that. The SLCDA approved the north Concourse last year and I wouldn't be surprised if they chose to add on the remaining 15 gates on the east end - construction on the north Concourse is expected to begin later this year so there is still time to add in the north Concourse in one continuous construction phasing strategy. I think last year an article was published showing that SLC expects the capacity to outgrow the new airport by 2029... hopefully they have the proper contingency plans in place to appropriately deal with demand at SLC.
 
jplatts
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:01 am

Delta did try to get access to gates at Dallas Love Field, but even though it wasn't able to get full access to gates at Dallas Love Field, it was able to gain access to a gate that it shares with Southwest Airlines in order to do nonstop service from Dallas Love Field to its main ATL hub. There is an ongoing lawsuit between Delta Air Lines and the City of Dallas regarding the accommodation of Delta Air Lines at Dallas Love Field, but Delta is (at least in my opinion) entitled to accommodations at DAL under subsection (a) of Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 and under subsection (b) of Section 3 of Article I of the 5-party agreement between the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, American Airlines, Southwest Airlines, and the DFW International Airport Board.
 
iflykpdx
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:03 am

At SJC DL has had gates 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 since July 1.
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compensateme
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:07 am

Capn wrote:
First post,
I was hoping that aviation buffs and employees ,could provide us with actual gate counts and the near term possibility of Delta increasing their number.
Basically interested in
Ord
Aus
Sea
Lax, how many open now and have they started to renovate any yet.
Bos
Sjc
San
BNA
Plus any others that antlers are familiar with
Thanks in advance


Are you sure DL wants additional gates at all these airports ? To me, it looks more like a wish list of the places a.net fanboys want DL to expand at all.

At ORD, for example, DL sub-leases gates to UA.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
atl100million
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:11 am

jplatts wrote:
Delta did try to get access to gates at Dallas Love Field, but even though it wasn't able to get full access to gates at Dallas Love Field, it was able to gain access to a gate that it shares with Southwest Airlines in order to do nonstop service from Dallas Love Field to its main ATL hub. There is an ongoing lawsuit between Delta Air Lines and the City of Dallas regarding the accommodation of Delta Air Lines at Dallas Love Field, but Delta is (at least in my opinion) entitled to accommodations at DAL under subsection (a) of Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 and under subsection (b) of Section 3 of Article I of the 5-party agreement between the City of Dallas, the City of Fort Worth, American Airlines, Southwest Airlines, and the DFW International Airport Board.


The case doesn't seem to be moving forward - nothing new has happened for months - but Delta is still at Love Field so the chances are increasing that DL will end up staying at Love Field with its 5 flights/day (4 X 717 plus 1 X 320, IIRC) but their original request for gates to operate a total of 14 flights/day appears to be stalled.

compensateme wrote:
Capn wrote:
First post,
I was hoping that aviation buffs and employees ,could provide us with actual gate counts and the near term possibility of Delta increasing their number.
Basically interested in
Ord
Aus
Sea
Lax, how many open now and have they started to renovate any yet.
Bos
Sjc
San
BNA
Plus any others that antlers are familiar with
Thanks in advance


Are you sure DL wants additional gates at all these airports ? To me, it looks more like a wish list of the places a.net fanboys want DL to expand at all.

At ORD, for example, DL sub-leases gates to UA.



DL has said they have requested additional gates at ORD. Not sure if that involves terminating the sublease or gaining others but DL has said they want to grow at ORD. ORD-LAX and ORD-BOS are likely high on their list and both markets will have to be fairly high frequency and thus need multiple gates.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:41 am

atl100million wrote:
DL has said they have requested additional gates at ORD. Not sure if that involves terminating the sublease or gaining others but DL has said they want to grow at ORD. ORD-LAX and ORD-BOS are likely high on their list and both markets will have to be fairly high frequency and thus need multiple gates.


DL gave its support to ORD expanding and said it's interested in additional gates, but nothing's concrete. Reality is, DL's hedging itself for the future -- positioning itself to move out of T2 to a revamped T5, should the project move forward and should it desire to leave at some point.

But in the near term, DL subleases gates to UA on a year-to-year basis.
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SANFan
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:53 am

I can tell you that at SAN, things in the DL neighborhood are messed up right now, and prolly will remain that way until summer of 2019. Reason? The new FIS facilities are under construction now and several of DL's gates are affected. All of the gates in T2W are CUTE I believe, and a lot of the newest ones (from the Green Build a couple of years ago) are normally used by DL and UA.

Right now, gates 48 & 50 are closed down for construction. (Those are both DL gates. I believe the DL gates are normally/officially 47 thru 51 plus use of airport-owned gates. I can tell you that today, 29 August, DL is using gates 36, 37, 38, 45, 46, 47, & 49.

When the FIS facilities (including 6 int'l-capable swing gates #s 46 thru 51) are completed in Summer of 2019, I'm sure gate assignments will be quite different.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge about DL's real estate at SDIA (current and future) can get in on this discussion. In the meantime, I hope this gives you something to work from regarding SAN.

bb
 
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flymco753
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:56 am

DL uses all of the 70 gates at MCO, as well as CUTE gates in 80s/90s at airside 4. At a given time, especially for RONs, there can be 13-15 planes at the gate and 3 at the hard stands.
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atl100million
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:15 am

compensateme wrote:
atl100million wrote:
DL has said they have requested additional gates at ORD. Not sure if that involves terminating the sublease or gaining others but DL has said they want to grow at ORD. ORD-LAX and ORD-BOS are likely high on their list and both markets will have to be fairly high frequency and thus need multiple gates.


DL gave its support to ORD expanding and said it's interested in additional gates, but nothing's concrete. Reality is, DL's hedging itself for the future -- positioning itself to move out of T2 to a revamped T5, should the project move forward and should it desire to leave at some point.

But in the near term, DL subleases gates to UA on a year-to-year basis.


correct... but DL is likely to expand at ORD and they do have the gates to do so if they choose to terminate the sub-lease.


Since they started ORD-SEA and some new routes to other airline hub cities have started with SEA flights and then LAX flights (such as from DEN), the writing is on the wall that DL sees growth opportunities at ORD. Since every route they could fly is a route AA and/or UA also fly, it is a given that expansion will step on someone's toes.

DL has flown ORD-BOS before and LAX-ORD is the largest industry market which DL does not serve.

DL is asking for gates in many major markets because they see opportunity grow even knowing that some of those routes are major strategic routes for its competitors. The timeline for when it all happens could play out over time. DFW just happens to be one of the other airline hub markets where they have recently said the growth is now coming.
 
ldvaviation
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:03 am

jonair8 wrote:
As far as LAX goes, they have use of all gates in Terminal 2 and 3. Terminal 2 has already been renovated before Delta moved there a couple months ago, but Terminal 3 is in the same state as it was when TWA was there. There are plans to slowly rebuild the whole Terminal 3. Eventually, Delta will be able to have a couple of exclusive TBIT gates as they build a connector between Terminal 3 and TBIT in the master plan.


27 Group III gates after T2 and T3 are reconfigured. Anything larger than a Group III aircraft will result in a number of gate dependencies. (Delta must share the gates with AM and WestJet.)

If LAWA grants the request for TBIT gates, the gates would be preferential, not exclusive.

The T3 connector must still undergo an environmental impact review.
 
atl100million
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:16 am

The environmental impact review has just been approved, IIRC.

TBIT gates are rarely exclusive for any carrierl but DL does have incentives to add international flights. DL said before that they have the potential to have over 30 gates at LAX which would give it the largest all-mainline capable gate count at LAX.

DL chooses to share gates with AM and WestJet.

Considering that the 737 is a group III aircraft, DL has enormous growth potential at LAX.
 
TW870
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:36 am

ORD-LAX is one of those routes that DL just has to operate - along with SEA-DFW/IAH/IAD. I doubt they actually want to operate any of these routes because they are a competitive bloodbath (much like LAX-PEK!), but for network reasons they need all four of these routes to have a competitive portfolio at LAX and SEA. LAX-ORD has always been extremely competitive. I always say that when TWA dropped it in the early 1980s, it was a sign that TW was doomed - as they just didn't have the resources to push back against UA and AA who dominated the most important routes. Overall, I have a hunch that DL will make LAX-ORD happen soon, including if it has to end those UA subleases at ORD.
 
apodino
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:22 am

atl100million wrote:
Capn wrote:
First post,
I was hoping that aviation buffs and employees ,could provide us with actual gate counts and the near term possibility of Delta increasing their number.
Basically interested in
Ord
Aus
Sea
Lax, how many open now and have they started to renovate any yet.
Bos
Sjc
San
BNA
Plus any others that antlers are familiar with
Thanks in advance

DL said it had requested additional gates at DFW before the renovation of terminal E began which is now complete. It isn't clear how many gates they will get but DL has said they will add some new destinations from DFW and upgrade s anome flights from large regional jets to mainline.

As for LAX, there has been some cosmetic renovation in terminal 3 and likely will be more but the primary focus for the next several years is building a new headhouse (the ticketing/baggage claim) areas and joining the two terminals behind security. DL also has access to gates in the TBIT during the renovation of terminals 2 and 3 with incentives to gain more TBIT gates tied to the number of new flights DL adds.

DFW is interesting in that airlines were moved to the satellite terminal in E in staggered stages to accommodate the TRIP project. Now that that project is near completion, most of the airlines are back in the main part of the Terminal, but I believe that NK is using a couple of gates on the Satellite. I am not sure if NK is wanting more gates themselves since they have grown DFW not insignificantly themselves. If and when the Terminal F project gets resolved, it could free up the very high E gates used by American Eagle.

One other airport where I think DL picked up gates recently is CLT. We don't talk much about CLT other than AA on here for obvious reasons, but I believe DL is the second largest in CLT, and I think they picked up gates that LAA abandoned in A after the merger.

Overseas, one airport I wonder about is LHR. Now the gates don't work the same way they do stateside, but AA has been getting more and more slots, and they are clearly growing in LHR given the OW alliance aspects. DL just recently moved to Terminal 3 due to their stake in VS, and although they are dropping the PHL flight, you wonder with the alliance how much more room they would need and if T3 can handle growth from both airlines, or if they would have to move DL-VS back to T4 so T4 can be the SkyTeam terminal as originally envisioned.
 
Capn
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:15 pm

I agree with these points and I do feel like they are setting the table for a lot of future expansions into cities that they will need to serve in order to be a player un these important markets.
Since Delta does seem to like point to point flying in vibrant growth markets I see a lot of possibilities for future growth.
I meant to add Rdu,Pit,Ric,Pdx, Sat, and Iah.
What the heck we are just talking.
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Ezra
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:32 pm

Regarding the gates at ORD that DL subleases to UA, does anyone know how many and which gates they are?

Thanks!
 
drdisque
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:11 pm

the gates DL subleases to UA at ORD were former NW gates. Definitely E10 and E12, and possibly E8 (I can't remember if E8 was a CO gate or an NW gate - maybe it was both at different times?).
 
ty97
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:32 pm

At AUS, DL has Gates 4, 5, and 6. On occasion, they also use CUTE gates 3 or 3A.

AUS is pretty much at capacity (or very near it). All gates are assigned, with five of them (2, 3, 3A, 13, 25) being CUTE gates. AM, AC, AS, BA, DE, F9, DY/DU (when they launch next year), VX, and Y4 do not have any assigned gates. They all share usage of the CUTE gates (side note: not all of thee CUTE gates have access to FIS, so that restricts which of the CUTE gates the international, non-cleared airlines can use). AUS also reopened the low-cost South Terminal to take strain off of the main terminal. G4 moved to the South Terminal and will be joined by VC and SY when they originate service.

AUS is currently building out 8 or 9 new gates in the main terminal. No word on who may use the new gates and/or if DL has desires to expand. DL has added a bit of new services over the past year or two, launching SEA, BOS and RDU as well as adding additional flights to JFK and ATL. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see DL angling for another gate or two at AUS.
 
ldvaviation
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:54 pm

atl100million wrote:
The environmental impact review has just been approved, IIRC.

TBIT gates are rarely exclusive for any carrierl but DL does have incentives to add international flights. DL said before that they have the potential to have over 30 gates at LAX which would give it the largest all-mainline capable gate count at LAX.

DL chooses to share gates with AM and WestJet.

Considering that the 737 is a group III aircraft, DL has enormous growth potential at LAX.


The T3 Connector was not part of the EIR for T2/T3. Look it up. (LAWA is still working on the concept plan.)

There are no incentives to add flights. Certain conditions have to be met for LAWA to consider/award TBIT or MSC gates. Given LAWA's history, I wouldn't bet it is a simple matter of asking and you shall receive. Plus, you have no idea how many additional mainline gates AA will get from its deal. (Wait and see.)

The agreement with LAWA stipulates that Delta share gates with AM and WestJet.

As LAWA sees it, Delta is only getting enough gates to run its current operation (and those of AM and WestJet) at no more than 8 turns per gate. Growth would depend on being granted more gates at TBIT and the MSC.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:14 pm

ty97 wrote:
At AUS, DL has Gates 4, 5, and 6. On occasion, they also use CUTE gates 3 or 3A.

AUS is pretty much at capacity (or very near it). All gates are assigned, with five of them (2, 3, 3A, 13, 25) being CUTE gates. AM, AC, AS, BA, DE, F9, DY/DU (when they launch next year), VX, and Y4 do not have any assigned gates. They all share usage of the CUTE gates (side note: not all of thee CUTE gates have access to FIS, so that restricts which of the CUTE gates the international, non-cleared airlines can use). AUS also reopened the low-cost South Terminal to take strain off of the main terminal. G4 moved to the South Terminal and will be joined by VC and SY when they originate service.

AUS is currently building out 8 or 9 new gates in the main terminal. No word on who may use the new gates and/or if DL has desires to expand. DL has added a bit of new services over the past year or two, launching SEA, BOS and RDU as well as adding additional flights to JFK and ATL. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see DL angling for another gate or two at AUS.


Supposedly, and this is only a rumor, but someone said that Delta wanted at least 6 of the 8-9 new gates being built. It's hard to believe and I think it probably was something botched from someone saying they wanted to fly out of 6 of the new gates, so perhaps they'd be CUTE and not used exclusively by Delta. Sort of like Delta's ops at Seattle.
 
winginit
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:14 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
atl100million wrote:
The environmental impact review has just been approved, IIRC.

TBIT gates are rarely exclusive for any carrierl but DL does have incentives to add international flights. DL said before that they have the potential to have over 30 gates at LAX which would give it the largest all-mainline capable gate count at LAX.

DL chooses to share gates with AM and WestJet.

Considering that the 737 is a group III aircraft, DL has enormous growth potential at LAX.


The T3 Connector was not part of the EIR for T2/T3. Look it up. (LAWA is still working on the concept plan.)

There are no incentives to add flights. Certain conditions have to be met for LAWA to consider/award TBIT or MSC gates. Given LAWA's history, I wouldn't bet it is a simple matter of asking and you shall receive. Plus, you have no idea how many additional mainline gates AA will get from its deal. (Wait and see.)

The agreement with LAWA stipulates that Delta share gates with AM and WestJet.

As LAWA sees it, Delta is only getting enough gates to run its current operation (and those of AM and WestJet) at no more than 8 turns per gate. Growth would depend on being granted more gates at TBIT and the MSC.


There's an incentive to add flights so long as it's in such a chunk that an additional preferential TBIT gate can be earned. However, there are two sizable obstructions to that in the form of SSCP and FIS. Delta and partners could in theory earn an additional TBIT gate so long as they don't utilize the TBIT security check point, which would mean asking passengers to check in at T2/3, going through security, and bussing over for gating, which isn't a great customer proposition. As for FIS clearance, the TBIT facility is packed to the gills, so it's likely that international arrivals on preferential gates would need to gate at TBIT before being secure bussed over to T2 for clearance. Also not a great proposition, and I imagine LAWA would be reluctant to provide secure busses for the service given the capacity constraints. Long story short, there is a mild incentive, but it's tricky, and it's not like DL or partners can slot too many more operations in what is a jam packed T2/3 facility especially with large sections being demo'd and closed off starting next year (possibly later this year? I can't recall).

I wouldn't expect an additional preferential gate earn until the new head house is complete in 2021, and up until then you're going to see gates taken down and relocated to accommodate the construction.
 
atl100million
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:18 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
atl100million wrote:
The environmental impact review has just been approved, IIRC.

TBIT gates are rarely exclusive for any carrierl but DL does have incentives to add international flights. DL said before that they have the potential to have over 30 gates at LAX which would give it the largest all-mainline capable gate count at LAX.

DL chooses to share gates with AM and WestJet.

Considering that the 737 is a group III aircraft, DL has enormous growth potential at LAX.


The T3 Connector was not part of the EIR for T2/T3. Look it up. (LAWA is still working on the concept plan.)

There are no incentives to add flights. Certain conditions have to be met for LAWA to consider/award TBIT or MSC gates. Given LAWA's history, I wouldn't bet it is a simple matter of asking and you shall receive. Plus, you have no idea how many additional mainline gates AA will get from its deal. (Wait and see.)

The agreement with LAWA stipulates that Delta share gates with AM and WestJet.

As LAWA sees it, Delta is only getting enough gates to run its current operation (and those of AM and WestJet) at no more than 8 turns per gate. Growth would depend on being granted more gates at TBIT and the MSC.

DL's investment in new facilities at LAX is specifically so that it can grow now and not 7 to 10 years from now. LAWA knows that and they are very much interested and committed to seeing DL grow. We know full well that DL's growth has significant competitive implications for the LAX market and that there are plenty of people who don't want to see that happen.

The thread is about facility growth for DL. LAX is a major part of DL's strategic plans to grow - probably the largest. All of the growth at every other airport on this thread will not amount to what DL will do at LAX in the next 5 years.
 
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tlecam
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:40 pm

Semi-related - there is an article (behind the paywall) on FlightGlobal reporting from the Boyd Conference saying that Delta is seeing CASM and possibly RASM improvements from airport investments.

http://dashboard.flightglobal.com/app/#/articles/440634
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commavia
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:45 pm

compensateme wrote:
DL gave its support to ORD expanding and said it's interested in additional gates, but nothing's concrete. Reality is, DL's hedging itself for the future -- positioning itself to move out of T2 to a revamped T5, should the project move forward and should it desire to leave at some point.

But in the near term, DL subleases gates to UA on a year-to-year basis.


That's my sense as well. I'm sure Delta would love some additional space at ORD, but I suspect it's just as much for operational flexibility and resiliency as it is related to facilitating major, actual growth. I agree that ORD-BOS may come at some point, and that ORD-LAX is definitely a matter of time. But I doubt Delta would need, nor want to pay for, a dramatically larger amount of space at ORD than it has now.

TW870 wrote:
ORD-LAX is one of those routes that DL just has to operate - along with SEA-DFW/IAH/IAD.


I agree that all four of those routes - LAX-ORD, SEA-DFW, SEA-IAH and SEA-WAS - are just a matter of time.

apodino wrote:
DFW is interesting in that airlines were moved to the satellite terminal in E in staggered stages to accommodate the TRIP project. Now that that project is near completion, most of the airlines are back in the main part of the Terminal, but I believe that NK is using a couple of gates on the Satellite. I am not sure if NK is wanting more gates themselves since they have grown DFW not insignificantly themselves. If and when the Terminal F project gets resolved, it could free up the very high E gates used by American Eagle.


It will be interesting to see what happens to the space in E in the near-term. Spirit's growth at DFW has slowed dramatically since AA started matching Spirit's fares. I'm not sure if Spirit needs or wants much more space at DFW. But, to the point of this thread, I'm not sure Delta needs or wants much more space, either. The gates they have are all near the Sky Club, and those gates have lots of open capacity (they can get busy, but only at peak times of the day).

ty97 wrote:
AUS is pretty much at capacity (or very near it). All gates are assigned, with five of them (2, 3, 3A, 13, 25) being CUTE gates. AM, AC, AS, BA, DE, F9, DY/DU (when they launch next year), VX, and Y4 do not have any assigned gates. They all share usage of the CUTE gates (side note: not all of thee CUTE gates have access to FIS, so that restricts which of the CUTE gates the international, non-cleared airlines can use). AUS also reopened the low-cost South Terminal to take strain off of the main terminal. G4 moved to the South Terminal and will be joined by VC and SY when they originate service.

AUS is currently building out 8 or 9 new gates in the main terminal. No word on who may use the new gates and/or if DL has desires to expand. DL has added a bit of new services over the past year or two, launching SEA, BOS and RDU as well as adding additional flights to JFK and ATL. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see DL angling for another gate or two at AUS.


Yes. Hopefully AUS uses this opportunity to do a thorough reshuffle of all the gates at AUS - I could see multiple airlines, including not just Delta but also AA and JetBlue, among others, being interested in more (and reconfigured) gate assignments. Because of the effects of consolidation and sheer market growth, all of those airlines now routinely use non-contiguous gates for some of their departures, and I've seen all of those airlines have to scramble with gating arrivals and departures during weather or other irregular operations.

ldvaviation wrote:
Plus, you have no idea how many additional mainline gates AA will get from its deal. (Wait and see.)


Yep. ;)
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:48 pm

When the FIS at SEA is complete, DL will be taking over all of A and will occupy most of B.
Supposedly, WN, UA, NK, B6, F9 will move to S as DL vacates it after the new FIS is complete.
So in 2019, SEA will tentatively look like this:
A: DL
B: DL, B6, F9
C: AS
D: AA, AS
N: AS
S: international airlines plus NK, UA, WN,

The POS can change things, but that's what the rumor is.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:08 pm

At CMH, DL currently uses C50-C56 and also has C49 in some capacity- the last time I was through in July, the gate had DL signage for the first time and the monitor at the gate had the typical Delta departure board (Flight, Departs, Destination, etc.) graphics. This means they've expanded all the way from C52-56 (which were their gates after the concourse was expanded in 2002) almost back to C46-48, which were once C1, C2, and C2A, the gates DL used when C opened in 1995 and the only open ones in C now. (There was also a ground-level gate marked C1A which is unmarked today.)

DL also uses C46 for arrivals from CUN because it's connected to the FIS area, but I think the flights to CUN leave C54, 55, or 56.

If it's of interest, C49, 50, 54, 55 and 56 are angled, with the last three able to handle up to the 757. C51 can handle 737s/Airbus narrowbodies and smaller. C52 and 53 are on a double jetway and are RJ-only.
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winginit
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:18 pm

atl100million wrote:
DL's investment in new facilities at LAX is specifically so that it can grow now and not 7 to 10 years from now. LAWA knows that and they are very much interested and committed to seeing DL grow. We know full well that DL's growth has significant competitive implications for the LAX market and that there are plenty of people who don't want to see that happen.

The thread is about facility growth for DL. LAX is a major part of DL's strategic plans to grow - probably the largest. All of the growth at every other airport on this thread will not amount to what DL will do at LAX in the next 5 years.


How though? DL have made no mention of significant interim growth in any of the published literature regarding the facility renovation, and I imagine it's partially for that reason that the EIR wasn't more strongly contested. Growth would require one of a few things given DL are already turning gates in excess of 8 times daily in a facility that's about to become even more constrained this year and next:

1. More gates: they're actually going to lose gates starting end of this year as chunks of the terminal start to undergo renovations, and incremental preferential gates at TBIT would require increased check-in or SSCP capacity - more on those below. They could maybe get one more, but that will only offset what is the net negative one gate in T2/3 that will result from the ongoing renovations and curtain replacement.

2. Check-In: with the head house demolition set to begin next year, the T2/T3 facility will lose significant check in counter space for several years, and DL can't get space in TBIT. It's already going to be a challenge to relocate the existing capacity and tenants within the facility, and to do so with increased capacity would be messy

3. SSCP: already bursting at the seams during peak times in both T2 and T3, and come next year the entire concourse level T3 SSCP facility is being shut down for renovation, which will force all T3 pax to clear security on the significantly more constrained arrivals level

4. FIS: The TBIT facility is at capacity, which is why we're seeing a notable increase in TBIT gating combined with FIS bussing to T2 or the southside.

I have no doubt that we'll see both international and domestic growth from Delta at LAX next year, but not to the degree that you're implying. 2021 and 2023 are entirely new stories, and I have no doubt that DL will have an industry leading facility at LAX. Having said that, it's going to take some time. Have you flown through T2 or T3 lately? It's a congested mess, and to put increased capacity of any significance through that facility prior to head house renovation (2021) would be a serious blow to the customer experience and the operational integrity.
 
commavia
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:47 pm

winginit wrote:
I have no doubt that we'll see both international and domestic growth from Delta at LAX next year, but not to the degree that you're implying. 2021 and 2023 are entirely new stories, and I have no doubt that DL will have an industry leading facility at LAX. Having said that, it's going to take some time. Have you flown through T2 or T3 lately? It's a congested mess, and to put increased capacity of any significance through that facility prior to head house renovation (2021) would be a serious blow to the customer experience and the operational integrity.


Yep. The airport's two largest operators are both planning significant expansion and improvement of their respective facility footprints at the airport that will, in the long-run, facilitate considerable growth. It will be quite interesting to see how this sets up the competitive landscape at the airport going forward, particularly since the airport's next three largest operators - United, Southwest and Alaska - are all also apparently looking to expand and/or improve their facility footprints, too.

In fact, it didn't occur to me until just now, but ironically enough, the two biggest terminal "upgrades" (in terms of both facility footprint and facility quality) over the next few years for both AA and Delta are at the same two airports, and both at airports where they happen to be the two largest carriers - LAX and LGA.
 
ldvaviation
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:35 am

atl100million wrote:
DL's investment in new facilities at LAX is specifically so that it can grow now and not 7 to 10 years from now. LAWA knows that and they are very much interested and committed to seeing DL grow. We know full well that DL's growth has significant competitive implications for the LAX market and that there are plenty of people who don't want to see that happen.

The thread is about facility growth for DL. LAX is a major part of DL's strategic plans to grow - probably the largest. All of the growth at every other airport on this thread will not amount to what DL will do at LAX in the next 5 years.


LAWA wants all the airlines to add service, not just Delta.

Nonetheless, it allocated more gates to Delta on the basis of its current ops, not some speculative growth strategy.

Though it appears the gate numbers support a growth plan, when you account for current flight ops of all the airlines in T2/T3, this is what LAWA concluded in the Final EIR (pp. 2.11-2.13):

"Based on the August 5, 2016 published flight schedule (see Attachment 3.c. in Attachment 3 of this Final EIR) the airlines that are now operating at Terminals 2 and 3 post-May 2017 relocations (Delta Air Lines, Compass Airlines, SkyWest (operating for Delta Air Lines), Aeromexico, WestJet, Virgin Atlantic and Aer Lingus) used 24 gate [emphasis added] parking positions during the peak hour of 11 a.m. to noon, as depicted on an aircraft gated ramp chart presented in Figure E. Note that these airlines were operating at Terminals 2, 3, 5 and 6 in August 2016. Therefore, these airlines were utilizing 24 gate parking positions under the baseline conditions in August 2016 at various locations at LAX."

There are only 23 gates at T2/T3 now.

"As illustration of the ability to accommodate demand within existing facilities, a published schedule for a busy day in August 2017 (the day with the highest number of scheduled operations in August 2017 - see Attachment 3.c. in Attachment 3 of this Final EIR) was analyzed to assess how many aircraft gate parking positions the airlines listed above will need to accommodate their schedule in August 2017. As depicted on Figure F, the airlines that now operate at Terminals 2 and 3 post-May 2017 relocations (Delta Air Lines, Compass Airlines, SkyWest (operating for Delta Air Lines), Aeromexico, WestJet, Virgin Atlantic and Aer Lingus) will need to utilize 28 gates [emphasis added] during the peak hour of 9:30 a.m. to 10:30 a.m. on a peak day in August 2017. Therefore, the ability to accommodate demand for 27 gate parking positions already exists [emphasis added] on a peak day in August 2017 and is not created by the proposed project improvements."

There will be 27 gate positions as a result of Delta's investment, but they will be subject to a number of gate dependencies which will reduce the number of gates available at one time by 4 or 5. There's isn't an "enormous" potential for growth with 27 gates upon completion of the T2/T3 project, let alone with 23 gates now.
 
717atOGG
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:56 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
When the FIS at SEA is complete, DL will be taking over all of A and will occupy most of B.
Supposedly, WN, UA, NK, B6, F9 will move to S as DL vacates it after the new FIS is complete.
So in 2019, SEA will tentatively look like this:
A: DL
B: DL, B6, F9
C: AS
D: AA, AS
N: AS
S: international airlines plus NK, UA, WN,

The POS can change things, but that's what the rumor is.

Do you have a source for this? It seems plausible, and I would expect A for international flights plus 757/737/717/320 flights, and B for CRJ/ERJs. Also, moving to S would allow easier connections to OZ, NH, BR, and LH for UA pax.
Long live the Boeing 757!
 
ty97
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Re: Delta gates at airports it wants to expand at

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:58 am

commavia wrote:

ty97 wrote:
AUS is pretty much at capacity (or very near it). All gates are assigned, with five of them (2, 3, 3A, 13, 25) being CUTE gates. AM, AC, AS, BA, DE, F9, DY/DU (when they launch next year), VX, and Y4 do not have any assigned gates. They all share usage of the CUTE gates (side note: not all of thee CUTE gates have access to FIS, so that restricts which of the CUTE gates the international, non-cleared airlines can use). AUS also reopened the low-cost South Terminal to take strain off of the main terminal. G4 moved to the South Terminal and will be joined by VC and SY when they originate service.

AUS is currently building out 8 or 9 new gates in the main terminal. No word on who may use the new gates and/or if DL has desires to expand. DL has added a bit of new services over the past year or two, launching SEA, BOS and RDU as well as adding additional flights to JFK and ATL. I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see DL angling for another gate or two at AUS.


Yes. Hopefully AUS uses this opportunity to do a thorough reshuffle of all the gates at AUS - I could see multiple airlines, including not just Delta but also AA and JetBlue, among others, being interested in more (and reconfigured) gate assignments. Because of the effects of consolidation and sheer market growth, all of those airlines now routinely use non-contiguous gates for some of their departures, and I've seen all of those airlines have to scramble with gating arrivals and departures during weather or other irregular operations.


If you'll forgive me going off-topic: When did AA give up Gate 13 and have it go to CUTE? My recollection (I lived in AUS during most of the 00s) was that AA originally (first half of 00s) had 13/14/15/17/19 (which is linear contiguous despite the numbering). I think they gained 25 for a bit when they took on TWA but eventually gave up 25. They also eventually dropped 19, which B6 grabbed when they launched service. So AA was at 13/14/15/17. The the US merger happened so merged AA wound up with a gate somewhere in the 20s (21? 23? not sure) meaning they were at 13/14/15/17 and (21 or 23). But when I was in AUS a couple of months ago, 13 had gone CUTE and AA was at 14/15/17/21/23? How on earth did that happen? (especially considering the AC is across from 13!)
 
ty97
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:00 am

CarlosSi wrote:

Supposedly, and this is only a rumor, but someone said that Delta wanted at least 6 of the 8-9 new gates being built. It's hard to believe and I think it probably was something botched from someone saying they wanted to fly out of 6 of the new gates, so perhaps they'd be CUTE and not used exclusively by Delta. Sort of like Delta's ops at Seattle.


There was also a rumor going around that AUS was in talks with an airline to build a club. While no other details were available, and that rumor is getting stale now, I was very much hoping for a Sky Club at AUS.
 
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24Whiskey
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:12 am

ty97 wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:

Supposedly, and this is only a rumor, but someone said that Delta wanted at least 6 of the 8-9 new gates being built. It's hard to believe and I think it probably was something botched from someone saying they wanted to fly out of 6 of the new gates, so perhaps they'd be CUTE and not used exclusively by Delta. Sort of like Delta's ops at Seattle.


There was also a rumor going around that AUS was in talks with an airline to build a club. While no other details were available, and that rumor is getting stale now, I was very much hoping for a Sky Club at AUS.


Is there room for such a thing in the expansion plans? Perhaps a part of the planned outdoor patio...

The DL operation seems to get pretty hectic at different times of day. Not so sure if that's due to available gates or just the current lack of terminal space with the east gates being squished together. The AMS flights in March are certainly going to push it to the limit.

If they want six gates in addition to their current operation that's quite an aggressive expansion...
 
ty97
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:36 am

24Whiskey wrote:
ty97 wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:

Supposedly, and this is only a rumor, but someone said that Delta wanted at least 6 of the 8-9 new gates being built. It's hard to believe and I think it probably was something botched from someone saying they wanted to fly out of 6 of the new gates, so perhaps they'd be CUTE and not used exclusively by Delta. Sort of like Delta's ops at Seattle.


There was also a rumor going around that AUS was in talks with an airline to build a club. While no other details were available, and that rumor is getting stale now, I was very much hoping for a Sky Club at AUS.


Is there room for such a thing in the expansion plans? Perhaps a part of the planned outdoor patio...

The DL operation seems to get pretty hectic at different times of day. Not so sure if that's due to available gates or just the current lack of terminal space with the east gates being squished together. The AMS flights in March are certainly going to push it to the limit.


I'm not familiar enough with the expansion plans to say for sure, but in theory, there's room for a club now; it would just require relocating some office. If you know where the Admirals Club and United Club are by Gates 13/14, there roughly an equivalent area upstair near gate (6?) that is currently offices. If those offices could be relocated (no idea if they could be) there is potentially club space there.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:11 am

717atOGG wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
When the FIS at SEA is complete, DL will be taking over all of A and will occupy most of B.
Supposedly, WN, UA, NK, B6, F9 will move to S as DL vacates it after the new FIS is complete.
So in 2019, SEA will tentatively look like this:
A: DL
B: DL, B6, F9
C: AS
D: AA, AS
N: AS
S: international airlines plus NK, UA, WN,

The POS can change things, but that's what the rumor is.

Do you have a source for this? It seems plausible, and I would expect A for international flights plus 757/737/717/320 flights, and B for CRJ/ERJs. Also, moving to S would allow easier connections to OZ, NH, BR, and LH for UA pax.


That's what SEA leadership, Port of Seattle and corporate are planning on for Delta's future at Seattle. That's the master plan and also why I said "but that's what the rumor is".
As more Ejets are delivered, you will begin to see CRJ fleet disappear from SEA as they prefer to use the Ejets for marketing against AS.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Capn
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:19 pm

Regarding LAX, last summer Delta had 16 gates at T5/6.they ran about the same shed. that they are now running at T2/3, where they now have 23 gates (even with AM, WestJet, VA, etc., seems like they would be able to expand some now.
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tlecam
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:22 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
At CMH, DL currently uses C50-C56 and also has C49 in some capacity- the last time I was through in July, the gate had DL signage for the first time and the monitor at the gate had the typical Delta departure board (Flight, Departs, Destination, etc.) graphics. This means they've expanded all the way from C52-56 (which were their gates after the concourse was expanded in 2002) almost back to C46-48, which were once C1, C2, and C2A, the gates DL used when C opened in 1995 and the only open ones in C now. (There was also a ground-level gate marked C1A which is unmarked today.)

DL also uses C46 for arrivals from CUN because it's connected to the FIS area, but I think the flights to CUN leave C54, 55, or 56.

If it's of interest, C49, 50, 54, 55 and 56 are angled, with the last three able to handle up to the 757. C51 can handle 737s/Airbus narrowbodies and smaller. C52 and 53 are on a double jetway and are RJ-only.


Good to hear. I flew DL between CMH and BOS/LGA quite a bit during 2014/2015/2016 and for most of that time they were really only using C51-C56, with occasional use of 50. I don't think 49 or 50 had DL signage at that point, although it's possible that 50 did.
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Capn
Topic Author
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:39 pm

in SEA once the A , is redone how many gates will Delta have on it ?
It seems like it will be less than14
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Midwestindy
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:17 pm

At IND today DL is using A6, A7, A8, A10, A11, A12, A13, A14, and A20. Plus DL uses A5 for int'l flights, and sometimes uses A15 and A22.

So DL has most of Concourse A to themselves with room to expand, considering the only other airlines in the concourse are UA/AC and WN/Vacation Express for Int'l arrivals
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Capn
Topic Author
Posts: 247
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Re: Delta gates at airports for expansion

Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:32 am

That's a lot of gates at IND maybe Delta has a lot planned for them
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