chiraagnt
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Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:44 am

With the news today morning that Qantas is shifting its stopover of its SYD-LHR flights from DXB to SIN (phew), I decided to look up the route and was quite surprised to see the number of potential airlines that will be competing on the route (now and future). Currently, it's SQ 4x Daily (2 A380 and 2 77W), BA 2x Daily (1 A380 and 1 77W) and GA 3x weekly on the 77W (only on the SIN-LHR one way, it's routed via CGK on the return). The future will see DY entering from next month (SIN-LGW 4x weekly rising to 5x weekly on the 789) and QF entering next year (1x Daily A380).

None of these airlines are in any sort of alliance with the other (EK is QF's preferred European Partner to Europe other than LHR on which it flies its own metal) and the route is clocked at 13.5 hours one way, putting it in the ULH category. I'm just curious if any other route sectors come close to seeing this level of competition for such long haul flights?

Also, why SIN? How has the airport developed itself into THE hub for the Kangaroo Route? I understand Changi has marketed itself well and I'm more than pleased at the added competition on my most flown route but other cities in Asia can stake a claim for airlines like BA and QF. Why not KUL where fellow OneWorld member MH is headquartered? Or even HKG?
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:22 am

chiraagnt wrote:
None of these airlines are in any sort of alliance with the other (EK is QF's preferred European Partner to Europe other than LHR on which it flies its own metal) and the route is clocked at 13.5 hours one way, putting it in the ULH category. I'm just curious if any other route sectors come close to seeing this level of competition for such long haul flights?


I don't think you're going to get much agreement that SIN-LON constitutes ULH in 2017. It's <6,000 nm circle distance. That's well within the range of "B-market" aircraft going back to the late-90s.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:35 am

How is SIN-LON in any way an "ULH" route?

...heck, an A330 could op that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
777klm
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:58 am

As to why SIN, My guess (Not based on facts I checked) would be:
- the possibility to operate flights under 5th freedom
- the geography of SIN
- the large O&D market of SIN
- the large premium market of SIN
Home airport: AMS
Next flight: CNX - BKK
 
Andy33
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:10 am

Both QF and BA are still members of OneWorld and still codeshare. Right now if you search for fares for Australian destinations from LHR, amongst the options routed via Middle East hubs, you'll see not only BA's LHR-SIN-SYD, but a whole raft of options combining BA and QF flights connecting in SIN.
 
continental004
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:14 am

It's that colonial legacy, y'all
 
AA100
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:22 am

continental004 wrote:
It's that colonial legacy, y'all


It certainly is. SIN-LON is a big market because of historical ties, Singapore's development into a global financial centre, and it's position on the Kangaroo route as a stop over. It's the same reason there are 9 flights daily between LON and Hong Kong.
 
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afterburner
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:25 am

London and Singapore are the business capital cities of their regions.
 
airbazar
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:19 pm

Come on, really?
LHR-SIN is not that much longer than LHR-HKG (+1hr). Although neither qualify as ULH, the reasons for the demand are simple. Like HKG, NYC, SYD, Singapore is a huge global economic center.

Correction: I meant to type LHR-HKG, not SIN-LHR :)
Last edited by airbazar on Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
AsiaTravel
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:21 pm

airbazar wrote:
LHR-SIN is not that much longer than SIN-HKG


I know right, just 4.26 time longer, nothing to write home about.
 
SonOfABeech
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:35 pm

I guess the interesting question is why isn't HKG more of a player in the Kangaroo Route. After all, it's almost directly under the LHR-SYD great circle path. Maybe because of Chinese airspace wackiness?
 
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PerfectGriffin
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:51 pm

Not only are they both economic hubs, but Singapore is a former colony so it makes sense why people continue to maintain strong links with the UK. HKG, YYZ, DXB etc. are similar in this regard.
 
axiom
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:08 pm

AA100 wrote:
continental004 wrote:
It's that colonial legacy, y'all


It certainly is. SIN-LON is a big market because of historical ties, Singapore's development into a global financial centre, and it's position on the Kangaroo route as a stop over. It's the same reason there are 9 flights daily between LON and Hong Kong.


+1 This is the answer.

Of course, there are good reasons that Singapore is Singapore (rather than, say, Colombo). Geographical position and home market wealth are two good indicators.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:37 pm

I guess the interesting question is why isn't HKG more of a player in the Kangaroo Route. After all, it's almost directly under the LHR-SYD great circle path. Maybe because of Chinese airspace wackiness?


Chinese airspace wackiness, yes, but not the current ATC madness (although I admit that it didn't help), but the fact that Chinese airspace was closed (at least to most western carrier I believe) up until like 1990s. That makes SIN (and to lesser extent, BKK) the stopping point of choice for a long time.

And HKG is not exactly a small player either. Yes, you pretty much only have CX, but the amount of flight between HKG-LON (9/Day) and HKG-SYD (6/Day) or HKG-MEL (4/Day) is not exactly small either. There's also CZ that's certainly growing (although still really small) as a kangaroo route player just slightly up north in CAN.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
airbazar
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:05 pm

SonOfABeech wrote:
I guess the interesting question is why isn't HKG more of a player in the Kangaroo Route. After all, it's almost directly under the LHR-SYD great circle path. Maybe because of Chinese airspace wackiness?

For historical reasons. KaiTak could barely handle O&D demand let alone function as a main hub. Singapore took advantage of it, built a world class hub and without much competition in the kangaroo route positioned itself as the place to stop. Even QF had a hub at SIN at one point.
 
gunnerman
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:25 pm

One of BA's two daily flights to SIN (BA15) continues onto SYD. So, a bunch of passengers won't get off at SIN from the 297-seat 777-300ER.

Howevver, the other flight (BA11) terminates at SIN, so all passengers will get off from the 469-seat A380.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:42 pm

I wouldn't consider SIN-LHR a ULR route. I think the true ULR routes with most competition are LAX-SYD and LAX-MEL.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:13 pm

SonOfABeech wrote:
I guess the interesting question is why isn't HKG more of a player in the Kangaroo Route.

How much more of a player do you want it to be?

CX will gladly offer the service, connecting most of Europe to 5 Australian (possibly 6th, if someone really wanted to fly to PER via HKG) + 2 Kiwi destinations on top of that.

In addition, BA will schedule transfers there as well. In theory, a QF pax could too.
And historically, Virgin used HKG as their stopover.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
airbazar
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:47 pm

gunnerman wrote:
One of BA's two daily flights to SIN (BA15) continues onto SYD. So, a bunch of passengers won't get off at SIN from the 297-seat 777-300ER.
Howevver, the other flight (BA11) terminates at SIN, so all passengers will get off from the 469-seat A380.


Not necessarily. BA has a few code-share flights out of SIN, such as MEL, BNE, PER, USM. So I'd expect passengers from either BA flight to transfer to any of those, at least. And I bet they also interline to a lot more destinations.
 
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XAM2175
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:40 pm

The picture is a bit off at the moment since QF entered the JBA with EK but regardless SIN by virtue of its geography and historical ties to the Commonwealth has been a stop on the Kangaroo Route since it was first flown - getting its name not only from the fact that Australia was at the end of it but also because of the number of stops involved.

Since then SIN has positioned itself as a major world city and financial centre generating tonnes of O&D traffic... and is still not too badly placed as a transfer hub between Australasia and Europe. Before the EK tie-up QF were using it as the main hub between their services to LHR (and before that FRA, CDG, and FCO) and major cities in Australia - and that's exactly a market SQ are still huge players in.

BA still also work SIN that way, having maintained extensive codesharing on QF flights between SIN and Australia. AY are the same (and both BA and AY do that from HKG too).
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:37 pm

SIN-LHR isn't ULH! Can someone please update the title?
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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RL777
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:53 pm

For the same reason as HKG, both have old colonial ties and are the regions financial powerhouses.
 
chiraagnt
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:38 am

Thanks for the responses guys! And apologies, I thought it would be on the brink of being considered a ULH Route but guess not! The route and the Kangaroo Route still fascinates me especially with how Singapore as a small city has positioned itself and Changi as a major player! Cheers!
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:13 am

chiraagnt wrote:
Thanks for the responses guys! And apologies, I thought it would be on the brink of being considered a ULH Route but guess not! The route and the Kangaroo Route still fascinates me especially with how Singapore as a small city has positioned itself and Changi as a major player! Cheers!


5.5+ million people is not what I would consider "a small city"....
 
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OA940
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:12 am

Isn't ULH 15+ hours? Because SIN-LON is 13 and a half max...
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:11 pm

OA940 wrote:
Isn't ULH 15+ hours? Because SIN-LON is 13 and a half max...


About that. There really is no hard and fast rule but 13 hours certainly isn't it.

I personally have used the rule that a route is ULH if it is beyond the range of a 744 or 77E, i.e. wasn't possible until the late 2000s. Other people would no doubt have other definitions.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
airbazar
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:38 pm

XAM2175 wrote:
Before the EK tie-up QF were using it as the main hub between their services to LHR (and before that FRA, CDG, and FCO) and major cities in Australia - and that's exactly a market SQ are still huge players in

I believe it was more than just a hub on the kangaroo route. I think SIN was a full blown QF hub with routes to other Asian destinations. In 1994 I flew HKG-SIN on a QF 767 (my only time flying QF).
chiraagnt wrote:
Thanks for the responses guys! And apologies, I thought it would be on the brink of being considered a ULH Route but guess not! The route and the Kangaroo Route still fascinates me especially with how Singapore as a small city has positioned itself and Changi as a major player! Cheers!

The importance of Singapore (or that region), as a strategic trading port started long before commercial aviation took off. Long before Sir Raffles set foot on the island, the Portuguese and the Dutch (and others before them), had already fought for control of the Straight of Malacca. So what we are seeing today in aviation is just an evolution of what it has always been.
 
APYu
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:43 pm

gunnerman wrote:
One of BA's two daily flights to SIN (BA15) continues onto SYD. So, a bunch of passengers won't get off at SIN from the 297-seat 777-300ER.



They all have to get off
We'd like to welcome in particular our Executive Club members and those joining us from our Oneworld alliance partners.
 
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qf789
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Re: Is SIN-LON the ULH route with the most competition? Why SIN?

Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:33 pm

airbazar wrote:
I believe it was more than just a hub on the kangaroo route. I think SIN was a full blown QF hub with routes to other Asian destinations. In 1994 I flew HKG-SIN on a QF 767 (my only time flying QF).


The flight you refer to was QF77/78 which flew PER-SIN-HKG. The flight was eventually split up into its own flights with QF77/78 operating just a daily PER-SIN rotation (QF operated up to 3 daily on PER-SIN back in the 90's with QF71/72 and QF75/76 being the other 2 flights). PER-HKG (QF67/68 IIRC) was then operated by itself 3 weekly with the aircraft rotating between PER and BNE via HKG, BNE at the time was only 4 weekly. Eventually PER-HKG was axed and BNE was increased to daily
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