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Ab345
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 am

Polot wrote:
Breathe wrote:
Unless I'm making this up in my head, I'm sure I read a rumour or speculation piece, that there was talk that Aer Lingus were going to switch their A350 order to A330neo's in the same way TAP did. :confused:

Rumors/speculation that they were going to do so, but it never happened. Rumors now are that the first A350s (deliveries starting next year) for EI have been re-allotted to IB though, with EI continuing to take A330s. We will just have to wait and see until something official either way is announced.

Breathe wrote:
They do have a lot of 787 options, so its not that highly unlikely they will order any more Boeing aircraft.

Indeed. You have people here who convince themselves it is viable for EI/IB to operate a handful of A380s because they could be in the same configuration and BA operates some, yet instantly dismiss the possibility that 787s may someday operate in IB/EI's liveries.


Wonder where these people got the idea ...If only someone at the head of IAG had made a comment about this :D Granted I m not saying they said they will definetely do it, it seems to be on the table

Walsh adds that the Iberia and Aer Lingus idea is a "what if" scenario and is a feasible option as the group "is putting into place a common specification before we then do the common procurement so that you don't have to keep changing the configuration of the aircraft".


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -w-424428/
 
LupineChemist
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:52 am

BrianDromey wrote:

I think you are taking an overly simplistic approach to this. MAD is just a line station for BA, if IB were to introduce the 787 a maintenance programme could easily be enacted.


I mean, of course they could, but the question is if it would be worth it economically. They would have to add a lot of non compatible spare parts, plenty of maintenance certifications that are much more expensive than just a new Airbus type, etc... in Madrid so it wouldn't help the IAG commonality too much aside from being able to do the heavy maintenance at CWL. That's why a mini-fleet of 380s could make sense but a mini fleet of 787s would be crazy thre.

I get that VN can do it because they have plenty of airframes available, it's not terribly unreasonable. But they already have 350s income and the 330s are brand new and it's only a 35 plane widebody fleet in the first place, so where would a 787 fit?

It might be a conversation worth having when this round of aircraft need replacing, but for the time being it's already been decided that the 350/330 will take the place of the 340s. The only new type I can really see coming in in the meantime would be 338s since there's enough commonality to make it worth just a few aircraft.
 
airbazar
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:06 pm

astuteman wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
Why would that surprise you? IB and EI are relatively small all-Airbus airlines, and adding a Boeing type into the mix would add significantly to costs there. BA on the other hand already had loads of both Airbus and Boeing planes at the time of IAG's creation, so replacing elderly Boeing types with Airbuses was an easy decision.

Small relative to BA but at 37 frames and growing, IB's long haul fleet is anything but small. Historically, one of their biggest handicaps was the lack of a "small" long haul airplane. They corrected that when they started ordering A332's. I think a fleet of 787's and especially the 788 would be perfect as an A332 replacement, but obviously that's not happening for a long time as the A332's are still very new.


Would the A338 not be equally "perfect" as an A332 replacement?
Given that it's essentially the same aircraft with 95% commonality, but considerably better range and fuel burn?

Yes except I'm leaning towards the idea that the A338 will suffer the same faith as the A358.

Jayafe wrote:
An airline like IB, which has move from a mixed fleet to a strong Airbus-only one, won't put its livery back on a 787. Too much investment, too much maintenance, too many policies, too much hassle, when can simply add more A330s and A350s (8/9/10) and share all the existing infrastructure and staff of the company. So yeah, I instantly dismiss it.

People said the same exact thing about LX.
 
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shamrock350
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:10 pm

Worth noting that Aer Lingus actually dismissed the A330neo as unsuitable for them. Shortly before the IAG takeover management at Aer Lingus pitted their current A350 order against the newly launched A330neo but came to the conclusion that it offered little advantage over the A350. In a financial presentation (now unavailable as its hidden within IAG) they claimed the A350 was still significantly cheaper to operate across their network than the A330neo.

Now this was a few years ago and a lot has changed with Aer Lingus and IAG but one thing that continues to sway in the A350s favour is Aer Lingus' growth across the Atlantic, loads are higher and routes either see equipment upgauges, frequency increases or both.

What was once an aircraft described as "slightly too big" for EI may well find itself the perfect A330 replacement come 2020 onwards. That's why we haven't heard what's happening with the order, officially it's still on the books but obviously delayed until IAG see fit.
 
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Polot
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:32 pm

Many of you are overestimating the commonality between different aircraft made by the same manufacturer. The biggest benefit is crew training and scheduling if they end up using a combined pilot group. But BA already operates the 787 so IAG has 787 training procedures in place. There may be some line maintenance savings due to systems commonalities but there are still plenty of unique parts between different aircraft, and again IAG has 787 maintenance experience via BA.

Things like different engines is a red herring. The Trent 7000 and Trent XWB have about as much in common with say the Trent 700 as the Trent 1000 (I mean the Trent 7000 is just a bleedair version of the Trent 1000 Ten, which is a Trent 1000 with some TrentXWB improvements backported in).

I'm not saying IB/EI will operate the 787, but adding them into the fleet is not as far fetched as many of you make it believe. Many of the same reasons why an A380 might work for EI/IB can equally apply to 787s (believe it or not the A380 is not the only aircraft where you can have a common specification/procurement for two different airlines for example). Again, IAG had no issue taking up options for the 787 in IB's name.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:55 pm

Polot wrote:
I'm not saying IB/EI will operate the 787, but adding them into the fleet is not as far fetched as many of you make it believe. Many of the same reasons why an A380 might work for EI/IB can equally apply to 787s (believe it or not the A380 is not the only aircraft where you can have a common specification/procurement for two different airlines for example). Again, IAG had no issue taking up options for the 787 in IB's name.


Thank you for explaining what I am trying to say. IAG, as a group, has the infrastructure in place to operate and maintain A330/A350/767/777/787 (as well as 747) and can easily assign the current, or new deliveries, where it feels the best return would be. The 787-10 is likely to be excellent for BA's US and ME networks (and the 772s on those routes are ageing early aircraft with limited capability).

While I don't see much room for the 787 at Iberia, especially the -10, much smaller airlines have found the the 789 and 359 work well together and that the maintenance and operational headaches are worth the performance benefits. Putting the 787 into a BA 'silo' makes no logical sense, if another IAG airline could make good use of them. In fact IAG have reputedly said they can move aircraft quickly between operational units. LEVEL got 2 IB A332s very quickly, as an example and BA got 10x IB A320s.
 
pabloeing
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:56 pm

I'm not saying that IB will operate the B787.....but teh B787-10 would be amazing in the IB fleet......for his routes to USA and America ( only SCL and EZE would be out of range at full pax)
 
Egerton
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:54 pm

Am I alone in being cheesed off by the current trend on A.net for the 787 to be suggested by its fan club as the solution to every topic?

No doubt the 787 is a useful aeroplane. But is it sensible to be told in one sentence posts that it can replace A380, A350, A340, A330, A310, A321 etc etc.

Whilst A.net has much good stuff to offer, this trend reduces my interest in looking for it.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:11 pm

Egerton wrote:
Am I alone in being cheesed off by the current trend on A.net for the 787 to be suggested by its fan club as the solution to every topic?

No doubt the 787 is a useful aeroplane. But is it sensible to be told in one sentence posts that it can replace A380, A350, A340, A330, A310, A321 etc etc.

Whilst A.net has much good stuff to offer, this trend reduces my interest in looking for it.

I'm at a loss to see whoever you've seen posting that kind of stuff at this thread. The only thing some posters try to say regarding the 787 is like:
Polot wrote:
I'm not saying IB/EI will operate the 787, but adding them into the fleet is not as far fetched as many of you make it believe.

And this in response to:
Fiend wrote:
With BA now being part of AIG and AiG favouring Airbus aircraft over Boeing then it's highly unlikely after the 787's are delivered that there will be any further Boeing orders.
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:17 pm

Personally, I think the ship has sailed regarding the 787 at IB. IAG held options for the 787 and A350 for IB, and they chose not to use the 787 options but go for the A350 and A332 instead.

For EI, it will be interesting to see whether the A350 will reappear on the production list. I think it will be a very handsome aircraft in EI colors (but so will the 787 be :) )
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:31 pm

BA having the A350-1000 is perfect, but they are also the perfect airline for the 777-9 as well.

I find it funny how the Airbus crowd on this thread say "BA is not interested" in the type.

Huh...While we're rewriting history, I heard BA will place the Concorde back into service next year :roll:

Willie Walsh, on a few occasions, said the 777X would be a great fit for BA and that the airline will get it at some point.

And you guys love to talk about commonality, but I guess you forgot BA has like, I don't know, the biggest 777/787 fleet in Europe? Why couldn't they get the 777-9 in 6-8 years to retire the last 747s?
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:35 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
And you guys love to talk about commonality, but I guess you forgot BA has like, I don't know, the biggest 777/787 fleet in Europe? Why couldn't they get the 777-9 in 6-8 years to retire the last 747s?


Sad that the title on topic is about IAG globally, not BA. Of course BA is, and will doubtless be, a massive Boeing operator (787-9 and 779 imo). But trying to push any Dreamliner via shoehorn into the other Airbus-only brands....not a matter of being Airbus crowd, it is simply a nuts speech.
 
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:51 pm

pabloeing wrote:
I'm not saying that IB will operate the B787.....but teh B787-10 would be amazing in the IB fleet......for his routes to USA and America ( only SCL and EZE would be out of range at full pax)

The 787-10 is too big IMO, for routes to N.America. IB is not a huge player in N.America save for MIA and JFK. They need a smaller plane for N.America.

frigatebird wrote:
Personally, I think the ship has sailed regarding the 787 at IB. IAG held options for the 787 and A350 for IB, and they chose not to use the 787 options but go for the A350 and A332 instead.

IB's A332 fleet at 1.2yrs avg, age, is way too young. They will be flying for another 15 years probably. There is plenty of time to order additional 787 frames.
Having said that, is it just a coincidence that IB's A332 fleet is of the same size as BA's 788 fleet? Wouldn't surprise to see those 788's end up in IB's fleet at some point in the future.
 
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:52 pm

frigatebird wrote:
For EI, it will be interesting to see whether the A350 will reappear on the production list. I think it will be a very handsome aircraft in EI colors (but so will the 787 be :) )


EI doesn't have a route network that needs the A350, the 330 will do very nicely and then probably the 321LR for secondary north America markets. Things could change of course, but I see the A350 as predominantly a BA aircraft to replace 777s and 747s. IAG has said it is interested in more A380s if the price is right and only time will tell us whether they're seriously interested in the 777X as another potential to replace larger aircraft that leave the fleet or whether a mix of 350-1000s and 380s will do.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:02 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
BA having the A350-1000 is perfect, but they are also the perfect airline for the 777-9 as well.

I find it funny how the Airbus crowd on this thread say "BA is not interested" in the type.

Huh...While we're rewriting history, I heard BA will place the Concorde back into service next year :roll:

Willie Walsh, on a few occasions, said the 777X would be a great fit for BA and that the airline will get it at some point.

And you guys love to talk about commonality, but I guess you forgot BA has like, I don't know, the biggest 777/787 fleet in Europe? Why couldn't they get the 777-9 in 6-8 years to retire the last 747s?


I'm reminded of this post in this thread from 2 years ago, by BlueShamu330s:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=592143&hilit=BA+779

**Almost** inevitable:

Quoting Willie Walsh:

“Based on what I have seen, it is almost inevitable that it is an aircraft that we will have in our fleet at some stage,” Walsh told Aviation Week during a March 18 interview. “It looks like a perfect fit for some of what British Airways [BA] would require.”

This was back in February 2013, over 2 years ago.

Then, in February 2014, Bloomberg reported that Boeing were trying to draw an order out of British Airways for the B777X:

Quote:

Boeing Co., the world’s largest planemaker, may win an order for its new 777X wide-body jet from British Airways as the carrier looks to replace its 747 jumbos.
“We’re looking at the aircraft and we’re certainly interested,” Willie Walsh, chief executive officer of British Airways parent IAG SA, said yesterday in an interview in Dublin. Europe’s third-biggest airline has held discussions with Chicago-based Boeing about the jet, he said.
International Consolidated Airlines Group, as IAG is known in full, is in the midst of a fleet upgrade that saw British Airways introduce the Boeing 787 Dreamliner and Airbus Group NV A380 super jumbo last year. To replace some 747s, the airline topped up its Dreamliner orders in 2013 and bought Airbus’s largest twin-engine long-range jet, the A350-1000.
“We see aircraft like the A350-1000 and 777X as being natural replacement aircraft for the 747s that we have,” Walsh said. “We’ve not made any commitment.”
An order for more planes would be for jets for delivery from 2019, Walsh said, with Airbus still in the running. British Airways would need to replace about 25 747s, which has four engines that consume more fuel, he said.
The 777X “is a competitive aircraft,” said Walsh, who was among the airline CEOs most vocal in recent years in urging Boeing to commit to the aircraft as soon as possible to ensure a commercial debut by decade’s end.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl... ... eplace-747

The tone seemed to have changed from a B777X order being "Almost inevitable" to it being a two horse race with the A350-1000, with the B777X "a competitive aircraft."

And then there was the Flight Global analysis earlier in June 2013 regarding Ronald Epstein's calling Boeing out for allegedly losing British Airways on the B777X to Airbus and the A350-1000 after they ordered 18 with a further 18 options:

Quote:

The anxiety of Boeing watchers seemed palpable at the company's annual shareholders meeting on 22 May when Bank of America senior equities analyst Ronald Epstein called out Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Ray Conner for "losing" British Airways with the A350-1000 order.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art... ... sh-386591/

I don't think we can hang on one comment made by WW over 2 years ago as a signal that IAG are bound or likely to purchase the B779, not forgetting also the internal rumblings, documented on a.net at the time, that there was unease at the "Emiratisation" of the frame into something much less ideal for IAG.

Also of note in all the interviews is the stated requirement to have the replacements coming online in 2019, which we have established the B777X cannot achieve.

The B779 is not the automatic shoe-in some seem to think it should be at BA.

Rgds


So the comment from Walsh you refer to is over 4 years old, and there's no further indication that in 4+ years the case for the 779 has got much stronger. 4 years is a long time for an airline, a lot could change that makes them reconsider, after all, apart from the A380s which serve very specific routes, BA has been quite happy to downsize several former 747 flights. The 777X may well be bought by IAG for BA, and I'm sure it will suit them very well, but it's not as nailed on as you suspect.
 
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:15 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
And you guys love to talk about commonality, but I guess you forgot BA has like, I don't know, the biggest 777/787 fleet in Europe? Why couldn't they get the 777-9 in 6-8 years to retire the last 747s?


Sad that the title on topic is about IAG globally, not BA. Of course BA is, and will doubtless be, a massive Boeing operator (787-9 and 779 imo). But trying to push any Dreamliner via shoehorn into the other Airbus-only brands....not a matter of being Airbus crowd, it is simply a nuts speech.

:checkmark:
 
BrianDromey
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:25 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
So the comment from Walsh you refer to is over 4 years old, and there's no further indication that in 4+ years the case for the 779 has got much stronger. 4 years is a long time for an airline, a lot could change that makes them reconsider, after all, apart from the A380s which serve very specific routes, BA has been quite happy to downsize several former 747 flights. The 777X may well be bought by IAG for BA, and I'm sure it will suit them very well, but it's not as nailed on as you suspect.


The 77X seems an exceptionally capable aircraft but I think the location of IAG hubs plays against it. Apart from SYD none of the existing routes IAG fly that I can think of particularly push the extremities of the payload/range envelope.
Europe-Asia won't make any of the 777/787/350 break a sweat, so it would seem to be more about capacity, floor plans and cargo ability. Cargo isn't the A380s strength, but half a dozen to a dozen cheap ones might be very tempting against the 77X. The constant re-jiging of BA's A380 destinations makes me think they could put an aircraft of 779/A380 size to good use. Probably not in huge numbers, but if there were a 77X version that could make Australia a 77X mix might be a good fit.
 
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scbriml
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:06 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Willie Walsh, on a few occasions, said the 777X would be a great fit for BA and that the airline will get it at some point.


Not quite. What he said (just the once) was: “Based on what I have seen, it is almost inevitable that it is an aircraft that we will have in our fleet at some stage,” Walsh told Aviation Week during a March 18 interview. “It looks like a perfect fit for some of what British Airways [BA] would require.

This was when talking to Aviation Week about an RFP between the A350, 787 & 777X to replace the 744 fleet. Six months after making that statement, BA ordered 18+18 A350-1000. Three month after that, they ordered 12 787-10.

Personally, I don't see the 777-9 finding a home at BA and the 777-8 is definately not required. I certainly see BA ending up with more than 18 A350s though.
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:58 pm

pabloeing wrote:
I'm not saying that IB will operate the B787.....but teh B787-10 would be amazing in the IB fleet......for his routes to USA and America ( only SCL and EZE would be out of range at full pax)

How about the high altitude situation at MEX and BOG? Would it work?

airbazar wrote:
The 787-10 is too big IMO, for routes to N.America. IB is not a huge player in N.America save for MIA and JFK.

I think you need to add MEX to JFK and MIA as (i) MEX gets multiple A346 flights from IB; and (ii) Mexico is in North America. Having said that, see above re: MEX' altitude challenges.
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350helmi
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:25 pm

airbazar wrote:
Yes except I'm leaning towards the idea that the A338 will suffer the same faith as the A358.


Based on what? I am of completely the opposite opinion, basen on the fact that parts for the prototype are already in production.

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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:56 pm

IAG are in a great position, in that they have the size to bargain with both Boeing and Airbus. Their combined size makes them a very significant customer, so they will get attractive pricing in whatever they need. I fully expect to see all flavours of 787 and A350, together with 779, in service with the group.
Cardiff will remain a Boeing maintenance hub, while Dublin / Madrid will likely become a focus for the Airbus fleet, irrespective of who is flying them. That is the whole point in the merger...leveraging scale.
As for EI or IB being wedded to Airbus...that will change if economics dictate. If (for example) the 787-10 is the star performer on Western Europe to East Coast, then no self-respecting business is going to argue "well, we only buy Airbus". Similarly, I expect the A350s to perform better on the West Coast routes.
779 will pick up the heavy lifting...it will be ideal for the BA routes to places like Singapore or Hong Kong, complimenting the A380 as the 77W does currently.
And if fuel does begin to rise significantly, then being able to "right size" across the three fleets will be very beneficial.
I also wouldn't rule out the A330NEO...at the right price, it could find a place on leaner transatlantic routes.
 
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:02 pm

olle wrote:
There is the Brexit variable to add to this... I have a sensation that IAG forced to have 51% EU ownership, problem for BA to fly to EU, in combination with London as the main financial center of EU will become one of 3 European financial centers will change the balance inside IAG dramatically the next 10 years.


BA is part of IAG and as an airline does not fly pan European flights like EasyJet does so the airline won't need or be forced to have a 51% EU ownership as this won't be needed, I think your getting a bit confused!
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Boeing778X
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:16 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
And you guys love to talk about commonality, but I guess you forgot BA has like, I don't know, the biggest 777/787 fleet in Europe? Why couldn't they get the 777-9 in 6-8 years to retire the last 747s?


Sad that the title on topic is about IAG globally, not BA. Of course BA is, and will doubtless be, a massive Boeing operator (787-9 and 779 imo). But trying to push any Dreamliner via shoehorn into the other Airbus-only brands....not a matter of being Airbus crowd, it is simply a nuts speech.


And look, IAG/BA may not order the 777-9...but they might. They are the right airline for it and time will tell.

But I hate how the Airbus crowd finds ways to dismiss the 777X in everything while making the A350 out to be the greatest thing to happen to aviation since the Concorde. The A350 is a great airplane. So is the 777. And the 777X can only add to the legacy.

MrHMSH wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
BA having the A350-1000 is perfect, but they are also the perfect airline for the 777-9 as well.

I find it funny how the Airbus crowd on this thread say "BA is not interested" in the type.

Huh...While we're rewriting history, I heard BA will place the Concorde back into service next year :roll:

Willie Walsh, on a few occasions, said the 777X would be a great fit for BA and that the airline will get it at some point.

And you guys love to talk about commonality, but I guess you forgot BA has like, I don't know, the biggest 777/787 fleet in Europe? Why couldn't they get the 777-9 in 6-8 years to retire the last 747s?


I'm reminded of this post in this thread from 2 years ago, by BlueShamu330s:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=592143&hilit=BA+779

**Almost** inevitable:

Quoting Willie Walsh:

“Based on what I have seen, it is almost inevitable that it is an aircraft that we will have in our fleet at some stage,” Walsh told Aviation Week during a March 18 interview. “It looks like a perfect fit for some of what British Airways [BA] would require.”

This was back in February 2013, over 2 years ago.

Then, in February 2014, Bloomberg reported that Boeing were trying to draw an order out of British Airways for the B777X:

Quote:

Boeing Co., the world’s largest planemaker, may win an order for its new 777X wide-body jet from British Airways as the carrier looks to replace its 747 jumbos.
“We’re looking at the aircraft and we’re certainly interested,” Willie Walsh, chief executive officer of British Airways parent IAG SA, said yesterday in an interview in Dublin. Europe’s third-biggest airline has held discussions with Chicago-based Boeing about the jet, he said.
International Consolidated Airlines Group, as IAG is known in full, is in the midst of a fleet upgrade that saw British Airways introduce the Boeing 787 Dreamliner and Airbus Group NV A380 super jumbo last year. To replace some 747s, the airline topped up its Dreamliner orders in 2013 and bought Airbus’s largest twin-engine long-range jet, the A350-1000.
“We see aircraft like the A350-1000 and 777X as being natural replacement aircraft for the 747s that we have,” Walsh said. “We’ve not made any commitment.”
An order for more planes would be for jets for delivery from 2019, Walsh said, with Airbus still in the running. British Airways would need to replace about 25 747s, which has four engines that consume more fuel, he said.
The 777X “is a competitive aircraft,” said Walsh, who was among the airline CEOs most vocal in recent years in urging Boeing to commit to the aircraft as soon as possible to ensure a commercial debut by decade’s end.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl... ... eplace-747

The tone seemed to have changed from a B777X order being "Almost inevitable" to it being a two horse race with the A350-1000, with the B777X "a competitive aircraft."

And then there was the Flight Global analysis earlier in June 2013 regarding Ronald Epstein's calling Boeing out for allegedly losing British Airways on the B777X to Airbus and the A350-1000 after they ordered 18 with a further 18 options:

Quote:

The anxiety of Boeing watchers seemed palpable at the company's annual shareholders meeting on 22 May when Bank of America senior equities analyst Ronald Epstein called out Boeing Commercial Airplanes CEO Ray Conner for "losing" British Airways with the A350-1000 order.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art... ... sh-386591/

I don't think we can hang on one comment made by WW over 2 years ago as a signal that IAG are bound or likely to purchase the B779, not forgetting also the internal rumblings, documented on a.net at the time, that there was unease at the "Emiratisation" of the frame into something much less ideal for IAG.

Also of note in all the interviews is the stated requirement to have the replacements coming online in 2019, which we have established the B777X cannot achieve.

The B779 is not the automatic shoe-in some seem to think it should be at BA.

Rgds


So the comment from Walsh you refer to is over 4 years old, and there's no further indication that in 4+ years the case for the 779 has got much stronger. 4 years is a long time for an airline, a lot could change that makes them reconsider, after all, apart from the A380s which serve very specific routes, BA has been quite happy to downsize several former 747 flights. The 777X may well be bought by IAG for BA, and I'm sure it will suit them very well, but it's not as nailed on as you suspect.


Then I suppose time will tell.

What I can agree to is the exercising of A350 options to replace the older 77As and 77Es, but BA is going to be a 777 airline for a very, very long time.

scbriml wrote:
Personally, I don't see the 777-9 finding a home at BA


Of course you don't.

scbriml wrote:
I certainly see BA ending up with more than 18 A350s though.


Of course you do.
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Egerton
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:46 am

frigatebird wrote:
Egerton wrote:
Am I alone in being cheesed off by the current trend on A.net for the 787 to be suggested by its fan club as the solution to every topic?

No doubt the 787 is a useful aeroplane. But is it sensible to be told in one sentence posts that it can replace A380, A350, A340, A330, A310, A321 etc etc.

Whilst A.net has much good stuff to offer, this trend reduces my interest in looking for it.

I'm at a loss to see whoever you've seen posting that kind of stuff at this thread. The only thing some posters try to say regarding the 787 is like:
Polot wrote:
I'm not saying IB/EI will operate the 787, but adding them into the fleet is not as far fetched as many of you make it believe.

And this in response to:
Fiend wrote:
With BA now being part of AIG and AiG favouring Airbus aircraft over Boeing then it's highly unlikely after the 787's are delivered that there will be any further Boeing orders.


Thanks frigatebird.
Having now checked, out of 74 contributions to this thread, there are 3 which meet my criteria re 787, and an additional 2 which concern 777. These are contributions #11, #24, #33, #46 and #57. The two you mention do not meet my criteria. Regards.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:38 am

Egerton wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Egerton wrote:
Am I alone in being cheesed off by the current trend on A.net for the 787 to be suggested by its fan club as the solution to every topic?

No doubt the 787 is a useful aeroplane. But is it sensible to be told in one sentence posts that it can replace A380, A350, A340, A330, A310, A321 etc etc.

Whilst A.net has much good stuff to offer, this trend reduces my interest in looking for it.

I'm at a loss to see whoever you've seen posting that kind of stuff at this thread. The only thing some posters try to say regarding the 787 is like:
Polot wrote:
I'm not saying IB/EI will operate the 787, but adding them into the fleet is not as far fetched as many of you make it believe.

And this in response to:
Fiend wrote:
With BA now being part of AIG and AiG favouring Airbus aircraft over Boeing then it's highly unlikely after the 787's are delivered that there will be any further Boeing orders.


Thanks frigatebird.
Having now checked, out of 74 contributions to this thread, there are 3 which meet my criteria re 787, and an additional 2 which concern 777. These are contributions #11, #24, #33, #46 and #57. The two you mention do not meet my criteria. Regards.

OK, thank you for pointing out.
Checking these contributions, I noticed 2 endorsements for Airbus aircraft in these posts too. Anyway, mostly the contributions are from one poster, so why don't you put him on your ignore list if you are so annoyed about him? I have one on my list too, makes life here much easier ;-)

Looking back at many years on this forum, I must say this thread isn't nearly as controversial as some have been in the past. There some posts I agree with, some I don't. Though I am a little surprised about some people claiming even the thought of a 787 in IB or EI fleet is as ridiculous as it can get. But, hey, everyone is entitled to their opinion, as long as forum rules are obeyed.
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:09 am

Boeing778X wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Personally, I don't see the 777-9 finding a home at BA

Of course you don't.


Well, try putting the shoe on the other foot. If WW had said "The A350-1000 is the perfect plane for us, it's almost certainly going to be in our fleet." Then BA ordered a fleet of 777-9s, would you be saying there's still a place for the A350-1000 in BA's fleet? I doubt it.

Boeing778X wrote:
scbriml wrote:
I certainly see BA ending up with more than 18 A350s though.

Of course you do.


Given they have the options, I'd say it's very likely. It's not rocket science and one doesn't need a crystal ball. :wave:
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astuteman
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:43 am

airbazar wrote:
Yes except I'm leaning towards the idea that the A338 will suffer the same faith as the A358.


I'm not sure I see it the same way.

The A338 exists because the A358 was cancelled.
The reason for the 358 cancellation was clear - with such a huge backlog of -900's and -1000's it seemed daft to develop a third aircraft with so few options just to steal slots from an already constrained supply process. I believe that is one of the key drivers behind the whole NEO programme - to leverage a mature supply chain.

There is no such constraint on the A338, and as others have said, it is already in production, although I don't know how far it has gone.
I see little downside for Airbus in certifying it and having it handy when needed - especially as a large chunk of the development money has already gone.

(It will fly a phenomenally long way by the way - I figure it to have a max fuel range of the order of c. 10 000nm, beyond even the 787-8's 9 500nm - not that either of them will lift anything meaningful with that fuel load :) )

Rgds
 
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:07 am

astuteman wrote:
The reason for the 358 cancellation was clear - with such a huge backlog of -900's and -1000's it seemed daft to develop a third aircraft with so few options just to steal slots from an already constrained supply process.


I have this little feeling that the 358 was a bit of a decoy to distract from the changed A350(now XWB) target market.
.. also to keep the A350Mk1 customers in the books is not out of the question.

Took quite some time for the general chatter to catchthat the XWB targeted more th 77(W) than the 787.
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mjoelnir
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:28 am

IAG has still 4 787-8, 2 787-9 and 12 787-10 on order and AFAIK 6 options on 787, that could result in a fleet op up to 48 787 at BA. There are no orders or options for further 777. The orders and options are from pre-merger BA.
IAG has today 43 A350 on order, 25 A350-900, 18 A350-1000 and 57 options for A350. There are also still AFAIK 6 options for A380. I can not imagine IAG having spent their money on ordering 43 frames and securing 63 options with Airbus, altogether 106 wide body frames, that IAG will turn around and buy Boeing frames instead. The number of frames ordered and the number of options placed, should, including the 787, cover the wide body need for all airlines run by IAG in the foreseeable future.
 
kaitak
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:51 am

shamrock350 wrote:
Worth noting that Aer Lingus actually dismissed the A330neo as unsuitable for them. Shortly before the IAG takeover management at Aer Lingus pitted their current A350 order against the newly launched A330neo but came to the conclusion that it offered little advantage over the A350. In a financial presentation (now unavailable as its hidden within IAG) they claimed the A350 was still significantly cheaper to operate across their network than the A330neo.

Now this was a few years ago and a lot has changed with Aer Lingus and IAG but one thing that continues to sway in the A350s favour is Aer Lingus' growth across the Atlantic, loads are higher and routes either see equipment upgauges, frequency increases or both.

What was once an aircraft described as "slightly too big" for EI may well find itself the perfect A330 replacement come 2020 onwards. That's why we haven't heard what's happening with the order, officially it's still on the books but obviously delayed until IAG see fit.


I do recall that EI looked at the Neo, but the 359 was (then) seen as a better fit. It may well be that - depending on the success of its new routes and the growth of the "DubHub" (which seems to be doing v. well), EI might "leapfrog" the -900 and go for the -1000, which would have better seat mile costs. I was surprised (and more than a little disappointed) that EI has decided (or IAG had decided for it) not to take the -900s it had on order and go for new A330s instead. Much as I admire the 330 - who among us doesn't! - this effectively means the same type for twenty years and for an airline with growth ambitions and a successful new hub, it didn't make sense. I suspect that at the time the A350 decision was made, IB's for the 350 was stronger than EI's, so IB got them and EI just had to make a convincing excuse.

The idea of sharing aircraft between the two seems to make sense as well; maybe we'll see EI going to an IB style colour scheme, which will make that transition easier? Since IB has a huge Latin American network, I suspect that high season in these markets would be different and therefore, they share some acft with EI in the northern Summer peak season?

Overall, I certainly see more A350s for IAG, although I suspect the majority will be -1000s.
 
astuteman
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:45 pm

WIederling wrote:
astuteman wrote:
The reason for the 358 cancellation was clear - with such a huge backlog of -900's and -1000's it seemed daft to develop a third aircraft with so few options just to steal slots from an already constrained supply process.


I have this little feeling that the 358 was a bit of a decoy to distract from the changed A350(now XWB) target market.
.. also to keep the A350Mk1 customers in the books is not out of the question.

Took quite some time for the general chatter to catchthat the XWB targeted more th 77(W) than the 787.


Don't buy that.
Some of us spotted on the day the XWB was launched that the meat was aimed at the 777, and the A358 was little more than a sop to cover off the 787.
Even in its original form it was essentially a ULR niche aircraft. The decision to make it a straight -900 shrink just exacerbated that, and essentially killed the plane.
The XWB target market has never changed.

Rgds
Last edited by astuteman on Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:03 pm

kaitak wrote:
I was surprised (and more than a little disappointed) that EI has decided (or IAG had decided for it) not to take the -900s it had on order and go for new A330s instead. Much as I admire the 330 - who among us doesn't! - this effectively means the same type for twenty years and for an airline with growth ambitions and a successful new hub, it didn't make sense. I suspect that at the time the A350 decision was made, IB's for the 350 was stronger than EI's, so IB got them and EI just had to make a convincing excuse.


Looking at the capacity of the A359, its not massively more than the A333. I still feel that the A330 is a perfect aircraft for EI. I accept that the flagship aircraft hasn't changed since 1994, but if there is nothing better suited to EI's current options, why invest? Remember the high gross weight A333s can now make the West Coast and EI has fitted crew rest to the latest deliveries, so must intend to use them to LAX/SFO. This wasn't possible when EI initially ordered the A350.

All of this may change as CX are about to prove that direct Asia/Pacific destinations can work from Dublin. Suddenly the A350 might be back on the cards for EI, I would wager for use to SIN or KUL. SIN would be a great one-stop option for Oz, either on the BA 15/16 or the multitude of QF services to Oz.
 
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TheLion
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:10 pm

IAG actually have 15 B787 options remaining:

http://www.iairgroup.com/phoenix.zhtml? ... aboutfleet

The chart states 18, however they converted three more options to B788s last year.
 
mig17
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:19 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
But I hate how the Airbus crowd finds ways to dismiss the 777X in everything while making the A350 out to be the greatest thing to happen to aviation since the Concorde. The A350 is a great airplane. So is the 777. And the 777X can only add to the legacy.


The greatest thing to happen to aviation since the Concorde may be a little too much.
But the A350 has been designed as a direct 777 competitor / successor. And the first generations of this all new type are something like 20 to 40% "better" than the existing 777 latest versions. The 777X will also be "better" than the 777 as an improved version but it is still a 777 and mostly overlap the A350 in terms of missions and capabilities. Meaning most ailrines will not need both the A350 and the 777X.
BA having A350-1000 on order and option it doesn't need the 777-9. By the the opposite would also be true.
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:43 pm

It'll be interesting to see how the B787-10 is configured for BA, my guess is it'll be premium heavy with no Economy rows in the sections in front of the rear doors. If this is a success we may see more orders for the B787-10 instead of other aircraft. BA may want to avoid A350 configured 3-4-3 in Economy.
 
mig17
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:50 pm

richardw wrote:
It'll be interesting to see how the B787-10 is configured for BA, my guess is it'll be premium heavy with no Economy rows in the sections in front of the rear doors. If this is a success we may see more orders for the B787-10 instead of other aircraft. BA may want to avoid A350 configured 3-4-3 in Economy.

I also see more 787-10 for BA and they will not go 3-4-3 on A350, only 3-3-3.
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Egerton
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:03 pm

kaitak wrote:
shamrock350 wrote:
Worth noting that Aer Lingus actually dismissed the A330neo as unsuitable for them. .


Possibly Aer Lingus were doing their calculations of the basis of high oil prices?
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:06 pm

mig17 wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
Jayafe wrote:


The greatest thing to happen to aviation since the Concorde may be a little too much.
But the A350 has been designed as a direct 777 competitor / successor. And the first generations of this all new type are something like 20 to 40% "better" than the existing 777 latest versions. The 777X will also be "better" than the 777 as an improved version but it is still a 777 and mostly overlap the A350 in terms of missions and capabilities. Meaning most ailrines will not need both the A350 and the 777X.
BA having A350-1000 on order and option it doesn't need the 777-9. By the the opposite would also be true.


What are you talking about?

Nearly all of the 777X customers have A350s on order, and three of them have the -1000 on order.

You claim something that isn't true. Having one doesn't disqualify the other.

scbriml wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Personally, I don't see the 777-9 finding a home at BA

Of course you don't.


Well, try putting the shoe on the other foot. If WW had said "The A350-1000 is the perfect plane for us, it's almost certainly going to be in our fleet." Then BA ordered a fleet of 777-9s, would you be saying there's still a place for the A350-1000 in BA's fleet? I doubt it.


Pulled from the loo. How did you come to that conclusion? :? I'm not the fanboy I was, so, IMO, the A350-1000 is almost made to order for an airline like BA. Have I suggested that BA should have ordered the 779 instead of the A35K? If I have, please provide a quote.

There are dozens of airlines I see who can benefit from the A35K but who don't have it, so, with all due respect, stop putting words in my mouth.

I think BA could end up up with the 779. You don't. Let's agree to disagree.

Boeing778X wrote:
scbriml wrote:
I certainly see BA ending up with more than 18 A350s though.

Of course you do.

Given they have the options, I'd say it's very likely. It's not rocket science and one doesn't need a crystal ball. :wave:


Oh...uh, hi back.

Read my reply from half a page above. Surprise yourself.
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richardw
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:26 pm

mig17 wrote:
richardw wrote:
.... BA and they will not go 3-4-3 on A350, only 3-3-3.


We don't know yet, 3-4-3 is not unlikely on an XWB aircraft in Economy.
 
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:02 pm

richardw wrote:
mig17 wrote:
richardw wrote:
.... BA and they will not go 3-4-3 on A350, only 3-3-3.


We don't know yet, 3-4-3 is not unlikely on an XWB aircraft in Economy.


Their 773ers are all 9 across in Y. Only the LGW 777 fleet will be getting 10 across in Y, so unlikely their 350-1000 will be.
 
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:15 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
mig17 wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:

Nearly all of the 777X customers have A350s on order, and three of them have the -1000 on order.

You claim something that isn't true. Having one doesn't disqualify the other.


Your not completly true either ...
On the "only 7 identified 777X customers", 5 have indeed A350 on order and at least one seems embarrased to have both type on order. So 2 haven't yet ordered both.
Yes 3 of them have the -1000. 2 of them being ME airlines buying everything they can to grow faster. By the way the wake-up call may be difficult one day.
Cathay is the only good exemple of an airline getting both A350-1000 and 777-9 even if I admitt, I don't understand why they are doing so.

The few specific airlines which have now chosen both type isn't a statistic yet and doesn't allow you to say they are complementary aircraft.
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:26 pm

richardw wrote:
We don't know yet, 3-4-3 is not unlikely on an XWB aircraft in Economy.


It is for any operator other than a charter.
 
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:18 pm

Stitch wrote:
richardw wrote:
We don't know yet, 3-4-3 is not unlikely on an XWB aircraft in Economy.


It is for any operator other than a charter.


BA already has stacks of Dreamliners in a narrow seat, narrow aisle economy configuration and with more to be delivered. It's converting B772s to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy, with B744 retirement happening the supply of standard economy seats will be reduced. B773s could easily be reconfigured at some future date to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy. It makes sense to order A350s 3-4-3.
 
Egerton
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:26 pm

richardw wrote:
Stitch wrote:
richardw wrote:
We don't know yet, 3-4-3 is not unlikely on an XWB aircraft in Economy.


It is for any operator other than a charter.


BA already has stacks of Dreamliners in a narrow seat, narrow aisle economy configuration and with more to be delivered. It's converting B772s to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy, with B744 retirement happening the supply of standard economy seats will be reduced. B773s could easily be reconfigured at some future date to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy. It makes sense to order A350s 3-4-3.


I am unsure if you are informed as to the IAG strategy on 'brands' for Long Haul?
IAG has LEVEL as the el-cheapo,
EI, IB and BA LGW as middle of the road, and
BA LHR as premium. The 787s at LHR are an aberration, hopefully an error not to be made worse.

I suggest that if IAG's A350s are aimed at anything other than LEVEL, they will be 9 across in Y.
Last edited by Egerton on Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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TheLion
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:26 pm

richardw wrote:
Stitch wrote:
richardw wrote:
We don't know yet, 3-4-3 is not unlikely on an XWB aircraft in Economy.


It is for any operator other than a charter.


BA already has stacks of Dreamliners in a narrow seat, narrow aisle economy configuration and with more to be delivered. It's converting B772s to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy, with B744 retirement happening the supply of standard economy seats will be reduced. B773s could easily be reconfigured at some future date to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy. It makes sense to order A350s 3-4-3.


I agree with your points until the last sentence.

There is no way BA will have their A350s delivered 3-4-3. Their current B787 seats are already at the limit of comfort; A350 10-across would be unbearable for a supposedly full service premium airline. Besides all their competitors fly A350s in 9-across configuration.

BA have already alienated many of their customers across all classes with their savage cuts to product, staff numbers and routes, with resultant deep damage to employee morale and service quality. Even they won't go this far.
 
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TheLion
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:29 pm

Egerton wrote:
richardw wrote:
Stitch wrote:

It is for any operator other than a charter.


BA already has stacks of Dreamliners in a narrow seat, narrow aisle economy configuration and with more to be delivered. It's converting B772s to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy, with B744 retirement happening the supply of standard economy seats will be reduced. B773s could easily be reconfigured at some future date to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy. It makes sense to order A350s 3-4-3.


I am unsure if you are informed as to the IAG strategy on 'brands' for Long Haul?
IAG has LEVEL as the el-cheapo,
EI, IB and BA LGW as middle of the road, and
BA LHR as premium.

If IAG's A350s are aimed at anything other than LEVEL, they will be 9 across in Y.


Point taken on strategy but you've gotta be winding us all up saying BA LHR are "premium", with BA LGW "middle of the road". That made me laugh anyway! :rotfl:
 
Egerton
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:51 pm

TheLion wrote:
Egerton wrote:
richardw wrote:

BA already has stacks of Dreamliners in a narrow seat, narrow aisle economy configuration and with more to be delivered. It's converting B772s to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy, with B744 retirement happening the supply of standard economy seats will be reduced. B773s could easily be reconfigured at some future date to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy. It makes sense to order A350s 3-4-3.


I am unsure if you are informed as to the IAG strategy on 'brands' for Long Haul?
IAG has LEVEL as the el-cheapo,
EI, IB and BA LGW as middle of the road, and
BA LHR as premium.

If IAG's A350s are aimed at anything other than LEVEL, they will be 9 across in Y.


Point taken on strategy but you've gotta be winding us all up saying BA LHR are "premium", with BA LGW "middle of the road". That made me laugh anyway! :rotfl:


Glad to have caused amusement. The customer is king, and many seem to vote with the wallets to fly IAG.
Oh to be young again, to do front of VC10 to Kai Tak
 
neilco
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Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:53 pm

If you were doing fleet planning for BA at Heathrow, you wouldn't want to invest too heavily in anything until work starts on the third runway. And I mean really stats; diggers on site, tearing up earth. If it gets kicked down the road again then they'll need to get more performance out of their existing slots and we may well see further A380s and yes, even 779s.

But increasing capacity and competition at LHR with a third runway means they'll have to lean on their strengths as a premium carrier. We'll see what happens with their business class offering in the future but early signs are that it's going to become competitive again, starting with the A350-1000s.

If Heathrow expansion goes through then exercising those A350 options to give them a mix of predominately -1000s, -900s and even future variants gives them competitive operating costs, greater commonality with their sister airlines, and scope to offer frequency on their premium routes.

It's hard to forecast so far out given Brexit and everything, but the 787-10s might even go on to find a home at Gatwick in a low-premium configuration. Maybe LEVEL would take that rump of a fleet. I can't see Heathrow becoming a pure Airbus operation as there are so many routes with varied levels of demand, but the A350s gives them a lot of flex in across the LHR market.
 
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Stitch
Posts: 26729
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:57 pm

richardw wrote:
BA already has stacks of Dreamliners in a narrow seat, narrow aisle economy configuration and with more to be delivered. It's converting B772s to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy, with B744 retirement happening the supply of standard economy seats will be reduced. B773s could easily be reconfigured at some future date to narrow seat, narrow aisle economy. It makes sense to order A350s 3-4-3.


While the difference between a 10-abreast A350 and 10-abreast 777 is about 1cm in seat width (~42 vs ~43), this forum loses it's mind over a ~2cm difference so I expect it would be considered utterly unacceptable for BA to offer 3+4+3 in any A350. BA is also reconfiguring their 787 seating to get the width closer to the ~46cm "minimum acceptable standard" of the A350 and 777 at 9-abreast. If BA really wants 3+4+3 in mainline, they're likely going to be pushed to the 777X as it offers ~46cm in that configuration.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2835
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: IAG A350 Orders/Options

Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:31 pm

I think a 10 abreast A350 gives a narrower seat than what the 787 at 9 a breast does.

I think its unlikely BA would do this given that their competitor's don't do 10Y. However Lufthansa have free catering onboard but BA don't! I think with the recent nonsense they have been doing anything is possible. I imagine the 7810's will get the same size F cabin as the 9 with more J seating, possibly slightly more Y+ and fill the rest with economy seats. They like to market themselves as a premium airline but in reality not so much anymore. I'll hopefully be trying club world in november so I'll find out for myself.
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