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LAXintl
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Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:08 am

Horizon Air is deferring delivery of six Embraer 175 jets due to a shortage of pilots. Concerned that the jets may be given to SkyWest to operate instead, the Teamsters union representing the pilots has filed for an injunction to ensure only Horizon can fly the jets.


Horizon defers six jet deliveries, prompting union lawsuit
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... n-lawsuit/

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wedgetail737
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:26 am

What's causing the shortage? Just supply and demand of pilots nationwide? Or are the Horizon pilots not happy for some reason?
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:29 am

Not a surprise, Horizon pays sh*t, and Alaska is too cheap to do anything about it so now the entire brand is suffering.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
metaldirtnskin
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:34 am

This thread from another forum includes an email sent by the union to QX pilots, which claims they are indeed being delivered to SkyWest: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hori ... s-212.html

Some unhappy pilots over there.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:57 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Not a surprise, Horizon pays sh*t, and Alaska is too cheap to do anything about it so now the entire brand is suffering.


Please provide your evidence that Alaska is "too cheap."
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:18 am

11725Flyer wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Not a surprise, Horizon pays sh*t, and Alaska is too cheap to do anything about it so now the entire brand is suffering.


Please provide your evidence that Alaska is "too cheap."


Uh, for one, they could, you know, raise pilot pay? Nothing extravagant like $100 an hour but enough to survive off of, especially if most of them are living in Washington/Oregon/California.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
RIP US Airways
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:10 am

11725Flyer wrote:
Super80Fan wrote:
Not a surprise, Horizon pays sh*t, and Alaska is too cheap to do anything about it so now the entire brand is suffering.


Please provide your evidence that Alaska is "too cheap."

Seriously?

QX is a mess, to put it lightly, and you need a source to see it? :banghead: :banghead:


Compare pay/benfits/work rules and such to other regionals then. Airline pilot central should have the respective into/CBAs

AS group is too cheap to fix the problem. IMHO they really just want to Comair QX and get it over with but they can't because then they can't use QX to whipsaw OO into shape.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:38 am

AS saw this coming down the pipe and refused to hire pilots prior to deliveries to save money. As a result, QX is now behind the ball defering jets and canceling flights.

AS is an incredibly frugal airline, hence why their financials are the best in the entire world. This is just an instance where they made the bet to save a penny and lost dollars.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
n7371f
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:06 am

Alaska Beyond
 
usflyguy
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:44 am

Varsity1 wrote:
AS is an incredibly frugal airline, hence why their financials are the best in the entire world.


or maybe of airlines based in Seattle?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:55 am

usflyguy wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
AS is an incredibly frugal airline, hence why their financials are the best in the entire world.


or maybe of airlines based in Seattle?


AS posts a margin exceeding 26%. Best in the world.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
32andBelow
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:05 am

Super80Fan wrote:
Not a surprise, Horizon pays sh*t, and Alaska is too cheap to do anything about it so now the entire brand is suffering.

Skywest runs so much a better opearation. That's the real reason all the jets are going there. Better ontime than as AS mainline.
 
flyguy84
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:22 am

I think they are purposely creating a condition to where Horizon can't meet performance goals thus allowing AAG to send even more flying out to SkyWest without violating the contract.
SFO
 
32andBelow
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:44 am

flyguy84 wrote:
I think they are purposely creating a condition to where Horizon can't meet performance goals thus allowing AAG to send even more flying out to SkyWest without violating the contract.

Well Skywest can meet them...
 
kabq737
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:09 am

I really do wonder what Horizon is going to look like in 5 years. I find it strange that Delta and American are trying to bring their regionals back in house while Alaska wants to push that flying out.
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amcnd
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:17 am

kabq737 wrote:
I really do wonder what Horizon is going to look like in 5 years. I find it strange that Delta and American are trying to bring their regionals back in house while Alaska wants to push that flying out.


I think AS has bigger fish to fry... VX for example. QX is now third to that.... on a side note OO tomorrow starts operations with 4-CRJ200's and 2-CRJ700's.. plus there 20-175's..
 
32andBelow
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:20 am

kabq737 wrote:
I really do wonder what Horizon is going to look like in 5 years. I find it strange that Delta and American are trying to bring their regionals back in house while Alaska wants to push that flying out.

Skywest is just really good. Much better than the other regionals flying for some of the other guys.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:26 am

32andBelow wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
I really do wonder what Horizon is going to look like in 5 years. I find it strange that Delta and American are trying to bring their regionals back in house while Alaska wants to push that flying out.

Skywest is just really good. Much better than the other regionals flying for some of the other guys.


For now. My belief is, while for now their numbers are good, OO is in trouble within 6 months, especially in light of the fact that they just voted in a 5 year contract which won't keep up with the cost of living. Especially as recruits, who want to be west coast based, face the prospect of being forced to ORD/DTW/ATL or possibly even NYC down the road.
From my cold, dead hands
 
Sean-SAN-
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:31 am

AS could solve this almost immediately by establishing a flow to mainline and slightly boost pay. Instead they have a stagnant group of lifer captains and an every rotating group of FO's who wither goto other regionals to get PIC time or get hired by a mainline/LCC without PIC.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:43 am

Sean-SAN- wrote:
AS could solve this almost immediately by establishing a flow to mainline and slightly boost pay. Instead they have a stagnant group of lifer captains and an every rotating group of FO's who wither goto other regionals to get PIC time or get hired by a mainline/LCC without PIC.

If they had a flow then the horizon pilot situation would be 3x as bad overnight.
 
dc10lover
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:48 am

Why not "all" QX pilots try to work for OO and let OO do all the E175 flying.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
kabq737
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:10 am

amcnd wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
I really do wonder what Horizon is going to look like in 5 years. I find it strange that Delta and American are trying to bring their regionals back in house while Alaska wants to push that flying out.


I think AS has bigger fish to fry... VX for example. QX is now third to that.... on a side note OO tomorrow starts operations with 4-CRJ200's and 2-CRJ700's.. plus there 20-175's..

I suppose that makes sense. Do we think it is more or less expensive to have an in house regional?
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amcnd
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:21 am

kabq737 wrote:
amcnd wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
I really do wonder what Horizon is going to look like in 5 years. I find it strange that Delta and American are trying to bring their regionals back in house while Alaska wants to push that flying out.


I think AS has bigger fish to fry... VX for example. QX is now third to that.... on a side note OO tomorrow starts operations with 4-CRJ200's and 2-CRJ700's.. plus there 20-175's..

I suppose that makes sense. Do we think it is more or less expensive to have an in house regional?



That has already been answered over and over.. cheaper..From Comair to QX700's for example... problem is "Scale". QX tried to expand to fly for other carriers. Didn't workout.. so there size hurts tem. 600 pilots VS 4450 SkyWest.. thats just pilot size. Aircraft size, ect. Did you know SkyWest is GE's largest customer...??... Talk about savings.. Lots of little details people don't know.. who do you think got a better deal. OO with 400 E175 orders/options or AS with 60?? Scale...
 
dashdrvr
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:15 am

metaldirtnskin wrote:
This thread from another forum includes an email sent by the union to QX pilots, which claims they are indeed being delivered to SkyWest: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hori ... s-212.html

Some unhappy pilots over there.

The LOA governing the 30 QX firm orders prohibits the operation of those aircraft by any entity not controlled by AAG. The six aircraft in question are in fact QX firm orders. The most clear evidence is at least the 3 remaining aircraft for 2017 are configured as QX /E-175's. Those are slated for delivery to OO
 
Varsity1
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:45 am

dc10lover wrote:
Why not "all" QX pilots try to work for OO and let OO do all the E175 flying.


Skywest is a cult of dead end careers. People who would be 10+ years into a career at mainline are stuck at OO on the Canadian space shuttle.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
32andBelow
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:47 am

Varsity1 wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
Why not "all" QX pilots try to work for OO and let OO do all the E175 flying.


Skywest is a cult of dead end careers. People who would be 10+ years into a career at mainline are stuck at OO on the Canadian space shuttle.

And how are they stuck? While atlas and UPS are hiring turboprop drivers to fly 747s. These CRJ drivers are somehow stuck?
 
amcnd
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:41 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
dc10lover wrote:
Why not "all" QX pilots try to work for OO and let OO do all the E175 flying.


Skywest is a cult of dead end careers. People who would be 10+ years into a career at mainline are stuck at OO on the Canadian space shuttle.


Im in the 10+ relm and a lot of us are leaving soon.. I watched my kids grow up. Don't commute and make more then most my friends at the majors, and home way more.... (and weathered the worst time post 9/11 here) plus just got a pay raise for working at another regional before OO.. But this is about QX. Contracts get changed all the time. Look at ASA. Poof! They just lost there Delta contract.. sure QX will ahow some air service agreement that QX broke that by all the staffing issues...(not the pilots fault)
 
kabq737
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:07 pm

amcnd wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
amcnd wrote:

I think AS has bigger fish to fry... VX for example. QX is now third to that.... on a side note OO tomorrow starts operations with 4-CRJ200's and 2-CRJ700's.. plus there 20-175's..

I suppose that makes sense. Do we think it is more or less expensive to have an in house regional?



That has already been answered over and over.. cheaper..From Comair to QX700's for example... problem is "Scale". QX tried to expand to fly for other carriers. Didn't workout.. so there size hurts tem. 600 pilots VS 4450 SkyWest.. thats just pilot size. Aircraft size, ect. Did you know SkyWest is GE's largest customer...??... Talk about savings.. Lots of little details people don't know.. who do you think got a better deal. OO with 400 E175 orders/options or AS with 60?? Scale...

That makes perfect sense. Thanks for the good explanation.
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kitplane01
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:25 am

amcnd wrote:
Did you know SkyWest is GE's largest customer...??...


How can SkyWest be GE's largest customer? Larger than Emerates, with 130 777-300ER, and 150 787s on order, all flying huge GE engines.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:32 am

kitplane01 wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Did you know SkyWest is GE's largest customer...??...


How can SkyWest be GE's largest customer? Larger than Emerates, with 130 777-300ER, and 150 787s on order, all flying huge GE engines.

because they have more engines than EK? Couldn't tell you if they are the largest GE customer but they are larger than EK for sure. (remember, you have to include ExpressJet)

Google is your friend ;)


*also EK doesn't have any 787 on order and if/when they order 787s they will be Trent 1000 powered.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:07 am

kitplane01 wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Did you know SkyWest is GE's largest customer...??...


How can SkyWest be GE's largest customer? Larger than Emerates, with 130 777-300ER, and 150 787s on order, all flying huge GE engines.

Skywest has like 420 airplanes plus expressjet.
 
jagraham
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:44 am

The majors have mixed fleets. United, for example has over 150 A320 family planes, but they are IAE. The 777s are at least half Pratt. All the 737s are CFM, but for maintenance purposes that's CFM and not GE.

I too first thought that the majors would be huge GE maintenance customers, and they are. But not bigger than Skywest. I am still thinking about the foreign carriers.
 
flightsimer
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:02 am

deltal1011man wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Did you know SkyWest is GE's largest customer...??...


How can SkyWest be GE's largest customer? Larger than Emerates, with 130 777-300ER, and 150 787s on order, all flying huge GE engines.

because they have more engines than EK? Couldn't tell you if they are the largest GE customer but they are larger than EK for sure. (remember, you have to include ExpressJet)

Google is your friend ;)


*also EK doesn't have any 787 on order and if/when they order 787s they will be Trent 1000 powered.


You all are funny thinking you are GE's largest customer... you want to include Express jet with Skywest numbers yet you don't want to include CfM which is a joint 50/50 development between GE and Snecma or Engine Alliance which is a 50/50 joint venture between GE and Pratt; all of these engines come down production lines in the same buildings as the "pure" GE engines.


Emirates GE portfolio alone is not only worth more than Sky West's, its more engines at 940+ engines: 360 A380 Engines, 280 777-200LR/300ER engines, 300 777-X engines...

But I would wager, at least on a pure number of engine basis, that the largest GE user is not even a commercial operation, but instead is the United States Military. The F15E, F16, F18 classic and Super, A10 and various others are all powered by GE engines, with some of these frames (F-15/F-16) being able to take the P&W equivalent engines.
Commercial / Airline Pilot
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:15 am

deltal1011man wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Did you know SkyWest is GE's largest customer...??...


How can SkyWest be GE's largest customer? Larger than Emerates, with 130 777-300ER, and 150 787s on order, all flying huge GE engines.

because they have more engines than EK? Couldn't tell you if they are the largest GE customer but they are larger than EK for sure. (remember, you have to include ExpressJet)

Google is your friend ;)


*also EK doesn't have any 787 on order and if/when they order 787s they will be Trent 1000 powered.

You're right. I misread a wikipedia page.
Seriously, some people on the forum are mean. Other people just provide a simple correction. People, please be the good kind!
 
amcnd
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Re: Horizon defers six E175 deliveries, prompting union lawsuit

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:19 am

kitplane01 wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Did you know SkyWest is GE's largest customer...??...


How can SkyWest be GE's largest customer? Larger than Emerates, with 130 777-300ER, and 150 787s on order, all flying huge GE engines.


Yes sir.. 500 CRJ aircraft x 2 engines each... all GE. Plus 20 engines alone sitting in the SLC Engine shop...

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