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TheLion
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:05 pm

A win both both Airbus and UA I'd say. This also doesn't mean that UA won't convert some of these orders to A35Ws in future. Nor does this conversion fully cover B772 replacement, so there's plenty more scope for changes in future, especially as no-one knows for sure what the global economy is going to do.
 
jbs2886
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:24 pm

Boeing778X wrote:
marcelh wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Five years presents lots more opportunity for further delay or order restructuring.


Order restructuring can also mean that they will order even a dozen more..... :white:


Which remains to be seen. They may order more, but then again, then could just use the 787-9 for some 77E routes.

45x A359s is a significant sized fleet. This is not good news for the -1000, but hopefully that will change.

Assuming the 777-200ERs are all replaced by A359s, and 763s are gone by 2022, we should have:

16x 764
12x 788
24x 789
14x 78J
45x A359
18x 77W

Hmm. The workhorse of the fleet is obvious. I suspect an increase of 787-9s and -10s. It also makes me question what else could fit.

frigatebird wrote:

Boeing778X wrote:
Wow! That's what I call some breaking news! Congrats to Airbus and...and...*gulp*...UA...

A lot of you saw it coming! Pat yourselves on the back!



I'm not holding my breath with AA getting any at this point, but your enthusiasm is noted :)

I'm quite sure AA will follow UA's footsteps... defer until the 77E is ripe for replacement, and increase the order :)


I doubt it.

AA, for one, didn't order the A350, US did, and AA probably never would have on their own. Very little corporate enthusiasm, two deferrals in just a few months and no word on pilots training for it.

For lack of a better term, me thinks the A350 is simply not needed. Plus, our 77Es are quite a bit younger than UAs (COs are younger still.) We'll have ours for awhile.

At AA, you're probably going to see more 787-9s replace the 77Es, and the A350 order converted to something else.


Do we know how many 787 options UA has?
 
727200
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:04 pm

I can't say I would be celebrating if I were Airbus. All UA did was defer the planes another 5-10 years. If they really wanted them, the plane is available now and UA has delivery slots for it. Looks like the can was only kicked down the road farther.
 
fightforlove
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:23 pm

This conversion, along with United's decision to take 77Ws rather than waiting another 1-2 years for the A35K, raises doubts as to how much better the A35K is than the 77W? The 77Es are getting old so replacing them makes sense, but this, along with DL's cancellation of 787s in favor of taking more A330/neo, raises question of how much more efficient are the 787/A350 overall compared to the previous generation of wide bodies?
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:30 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Let's try to avoid the insipid "I'm Right, You're A Hater!" mentality that's all over this board.

Everyone was right about some aspect of this deal to some degree.

Rumours were clear that UA wasn't preparing to take the A350s soon-ish. Some said that meant they would "never" take the frames. But how to deal with all those huge deposits? Now we see, "never" just meant finding a way to defer using those deposits for an airplane that clearly is a great fit for the 772ER replacement role that clearly had to happen.


Well rumor was that UA couldn't take the A350 due to crew rest area issues.

I guess we can put that rumor to a rest.


the United pilots contract is due for openers in 2019 I'm sure a sub section to incorporate the A350 bunk will be asked for and given. Everything has a price.
 
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precure787
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:31 pm

I knew that the A350s would replace the 777-200ER fleet.
Edward Zen/Precure 787
 
kimimm19
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:34 pm

The only negative in this news is that the delivery dates are so far away...

So is this to suggest that 77Ws are meant to replace the 747s then? I hope with the substantial order that some of them will be deployed on transatlantic services...
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:35 pm

jumbojet wrote:
First, congrats to UA. Serious question, not meant to bash UA.

Being that they're replacing the 777's, why even bother sending the 777s in for refurbishment? If they're only going to be around for another 5 or so years, why waste the money on very expensive mods. The business class seats in the 777 aren't that horrible that they have to spend the money to replace them with Polaris seats just to retire them in 5 years. Seems to be a huge waste. The 777 seat is flat bed and you do get the upgraded Polaris service. Why not simply accelerate the refurbs on the 787 and leave the 777 as is, after all, the 787 will be around for a heck of a lot longer than the 777.

Also, if you remember back when DL refurbished the 747 and then approximately 5 years afterwards announced its retirement, people on here raked DL across the coals for wasting money. So, I ask a perfectly legitimate question, is this a good approach for UA to take as opposed to the approach that DL took?


I wouldn't be surprised if they ear marked the first 777s to go and either convert them first to get a ROI or do everything else first and let a subfleet of old seats fly around. We don't know yet the delivery schedule only that they will be delivered between 2022-2027. So most 777s will have Polaris for atleast 5 years.
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:52 pm

fightforlove wrote:
This conversion, along with United's decision to take 77Ws rather than waiting another 1-2 years for the A35K, raises doubts as to how much better the A35K is than the 77W?


No, it just shows that UA took advantage of low prices and early delivery slots for 77Ws. Bread today rather than jam tomorrow.

727200 wrote:
I can't say I would be celebrating if I were Airbus. All UA did was defer the planes another 5-10 years.


And added another 10 frames.

727200 wrote:
If they really wanted them, the plane is available now


If they really didn't want them, they could have cancelled the order. Which is what many here said (or hoped) they'd do.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:13 pm

fightforlove wrote:
This conversion, along with United's decision to take 77Ws rather than waiting another 1-2 years for the A35K, raises doubts as to how much better the A35K is than the 77W? The 77Es are getting old so replacing them makes sense, but this, along with DL's cancellation of 787s in favor of taking more A330/neo, raises question of how much more efficient are the 787/A350 overall compared to the previous generation of wide bodies?


It doesn't make me question how much better the A35K is than the 77W. What I question is the price Airbus is charging for the A35K. With UA switching its orders, the plane is down to 177 orders. Usually stretches have superior economics to shorter versions for only marginally higher operating costs. It's not all that common for an airline to switch to a smaller version of a plane. More often they upgrade to the stretch, so it makes me think Airbus may be over pricing the A350-1000. Or it simply could be that UA wants to more closely match 777-200ER capacity.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:26 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
fightforlove wrote:
This conversion, along with United's decision to take 77Ws rather than waiting another 1-2 years for the A35K, raises doubts as to how much better the A35K is than the 77W? The 77Es are getting old so replacing them makes sense, but this, along with DL's cancellation of 787s in favor of taking more A330/neo, raises question of how much more efficient are the 787/A350 overall compared to the previous generation of wide bodies?


It doesn't make me question how much better the A35K is than the 77W. What I question is the price Airbus is charging for the A35K. With UA switching its orders, the plane is down to 177 orders. Usually stretches have superior economics to shorter versions for only marginally higher operating costs. It's not all that common for an airline to switch to a smaller version of a plane. More often they upgrade to the stretch, so it makes me think Airbus may be over pricing the A350-1000. Or it simply could be that UA wants to more closely match 777-200ER capacity.


I think it is just that UA got a good deal on the 77Ws that they could use as the 744 replacement, and the A359 matches up really nicely as a 77E replacement.

I think the A35K will do fine, but it wasn't really a need at UA anymore. As some have said 5-10 years is a long time, and maybe UA will have more capacity to fill down the line and may need a larger 77W/A35K/779 fleet, but right now it wouldn't really make a lot of sense.

Honestly, the conversion (and order increase) makes a lot of sense for all parties.
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:34 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I find it interesting that they are evaluating replacing the entire 777 fleet with A350s down the line. But with new 77W coming in, I'm sure that wouldn't happen for at least 12-15 years. Also notable that they have a lot of A350 options at favorable prices. Upgrades to -1000 might happen later as well.


The 777 fleet is bigger than this order and the 789s will also handle 777 flying along with the 78Js. I think UA intends to be more vigilant to matching the right a/c for the right mission at the right time of year. That could mean (like DL), they change the a/c on a route monthly depending on demand.
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:42 pm

dmstorm22 wrote:
I think it is just that UA got a good deal on the 77Ws that they could use as the 744 replacement, and the A359 matches up really nicely as a 77E replacement. I think the A35K will do fine, but it wasn't really a need at UA anymore.


:yes:

UA originally ordered the A350-900 in 2010 when fuel prices were high and avionics upgrades for the 777 (AIMS-2) would be expensive. That then switched in 2013 to the A350-1000, probably driven by maintenance / dispatch-reliability for the 747-400 and UA's decision to undertake the AIMS-2 upgrade for their 777 fleet. Subsequently, fuel prices dropped significantly, as did ASPs for the 777-300ER, which with it's immediate availability made it much more appealing as a 747-400 replacement now then it was five years ago. Boeing also finally launched the 787-10, which will be a brilliant 777-200 replacement for ORD/EWR-TATL and South America missions. This has swung the pendulum back to the A350-900, which will be a brilliant 777-200 replacement for LAX/SFO/DEN-TATL and TPAC missions from all the hubs.
Last edited by Stitch on Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Revelation
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:47 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
Here's a memo to employees concerning the 359 and 3d Quarter results:

A little something in it for everybody! :-)

Today we also announced significant changes to our Airbus A350 order, most notable of which is the timing of deliveries. We decided to defer these aircraft until 2022 to align with the replacement of our fleet of 55 Boeing 777-200ERs, which begin to turn 25 years old in 2023. Adjusting the timing of delivery of the A350s in no way limits our plan to grow and renew our fleet. We continue to take delivery of 777-300ERs, with the fleet growing to 18 aircraft by the end of next year, and will welcome our first 787-10 next year. Neither aircraft type was anticipated when we placed our original A350 order, and both types will fill our widebody growth needs over the next several years. In addition to our firm commitments shown below, we also plan to supplement our fleet with additional used aircraft.

B fans read this as "One of the few good things to come from the 787 screw ups is that we got the 77W into the door at UA (BA and AA too!)". Never know if that'll be paying more dividends in the future via 77X sales. I kinda doubt it for UA, but you can never say never.

Additionally, it was hard to justify having a small subfleet of 35 A350s spread out over our seven hubs, as there would be operational inefficiencies with crews, aircraft routings and spare parts, so we increased the order size to 45 aircraft. We also converted the order from the A350-1000 variant to the A350-900, which is a better fit for our network. We believe the smaller A350-900 is the better choice for United for our long range planning needs, as the A350-1000 is a larger aircraft that is comparable to the 18 777-300ERs being delivered through next year to replace the 747-400 fleet. Importantly, we have the ability to swap some of the A350-900 aircraft into the larger -1000 version if our views on aircraft size change over time.

The A350-900 is an outstanding aircraft with the size and range to be an excellent replacement for our 777-200ERs, and we have a substantial number of options we can exercise for more A350-900s. So if we decide to make this the sole replacement for the 777 fleet, we will be able to do so on similar, very attractive, economic terms.

A fans read this as "we got UA locked up for the bigger twins going forward!". If they think 35 A350s is too small a fleet, how will they justify 77Xs?

KarelXWB wrote:
Well rumor was that UA couldn't take the A350 due to crew rest area issues.

I guess we can put that rumor to a rest.

Well, that rumor wasn't all that credit worthy to begin with. It always seemed to be a squabble between the UA pilots and management, not a FAA issue. Now we see the A350s are coming to UA in the 2021 time frame, which means either there never was such an issue, or UA thinks it will be ironed out by 2021, or that UA is just ignoring the pilot's complaints. So in that sense, I don't know if this news puts that (weak) rumor to rest or not, but I never viewed the issue as a show stopper, despite what some were saying.

CriticalPoint wrote:
the United pilots contract is due for openers in 2019 I'm sure a sub section to incorporate the A350 bunk will be asked for and given. Everything has a price.

Thanks -- that makes perfect sense to me.

scbriml wrote:
They're not getting 45 A350-900s for the same price as 35 A350-1000s. :shakehead:

Right, but we do know Kirby said (in an employees meeting?) that he knew what prices AA were paying for A350s and they were lower than UA's pricing. It's a shame we'll never know if that played a role or not. Maybe someone will do some analysis of the annual reports and figure out if UA is getting a true bargain or not.

Bottom line is UA just bumped up its order and shifted it out a few years, which is something Airbus is presumably pleased with. They'll be a mainstay of UA's fleet for decades to come.

Newbiepilot wrote:
It doesn't make me question how much better the A35K is than the 77W. What I question is the price Airbus is charging for the A35K. With UA switching its orders, the plane is down to 177 orders. Usually stretches have superior economics to shorter versions for only marginally higher operating costs. It's not all that common for an airline to switch to a smaller version of a plane. More often they upgrade to the stretch, so it makes me think Airbus may be over pricing the A350-1000. Or it simply could be that UA wants to more closely match 777-200ER capacity.

The same rationale that many use for "low" 77X orders can easily apply to A35K orders: the 77W fleet is still young.

The A35K will be fine. It has lots of orders from blue chip airlines and the book will undoubtedly grow as time moves on.

It's more likely than not to end up in UA's fleet in the future, unless the need for the 779 becomes clear later in the 2020s.

In that timeframe, both frames will be mature and UA will have a lot better idea what its needs are.

It'll also be able to play the vendors off each other for great pricing.

This whole situation makes so much sense for everyone involved.
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gwrudolph
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:55 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I find it interesting that they are evaluating replacing the entire 777 fleet with A350s down the line. But with new 77W coming in, I'm sure that wouldn't happen for at least 12-15 years. Also notable that they have a lot of A350 options at favorable prices. Upgrades to -1000 might happen later as well.


The 777 fleet is bigger than this order and the 789s will also handle 777 flying along with the 78Js. I think UA intends to be more vigilant to matching the right a/c for the right mission at the right time of year. That could mean (like DL), they change the a/c on a route monthly depending on demand.


Plus don't forget, 19 of the 777s are the A model and are accommodating domestic (Hawaii and Hub-Hub) missions. So, the true ER fleet is 55. As I seriously doubt they would use the 359 on those domestic missions (much more likely potential MOM type would), you are really only talking about the 45 taking the place of the existing 55 ERs. Only 10 difference, which as everyone is saying, can easily be right-sized with 789, 787-10, or potential MOM.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:26 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
SonomaFlyer wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I find it interesting that they are evaluating replacing the entire 777 fleet with A350s down the line. But with new 77W coming in, I'm sure that wouldn't happen for at least 12-15 years. Also notable that they have a lot of A350 options at favorable prices. Upgrades to -1000 might happen later as well.


The 777 fleet is bigger than this order and the 789s will also handle 777 flying along with the 78Js. I think UA intends to be more vigilant to matching the right a/c for the right mission at the right time of year. That could mean (like DL), they change the a/c on a route monthly depending on demand.


Plus don't forget, 19 of the 777s are the A model and are accommodating domestic (Hawaii and Hub-Hub) missions. So, the true ER fleet is 55. As I seriously doubt they would use the 359 on those domestic missions (much more likely potential MOM type would), you are really only talking about the 45 taking the place of the existing 55 ERs. Only 10 difference, which as everyone is saying, can easily be right-sized with 789, 787-10, or potential MOM.


Yeah, assuming MOM comes online to replace a lot of the 757 (and some 763) flying, UA's long-term position is pretty clear actually:

744 -> 77W
77E -> Mostly A359 and some 788/9/J and upping some to 77W
763/4 -> Mix of 788/789/78J and MOM
752 -> MOM

Things will change obviously, but UA has far more flexibility to match plane to route now than it did where so many routes had to go 77E because of distance that didn't need that much capacity.
 
jayunited
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:37 pm

jumbojet wrote:
First, congrats to UA. Serious question, not meant to bash UA.

Being that they're replacing the 777's, why even bother sending the 777s in for refurbishment? If they're only going to be around for another 5 or so years, why waste the money on very expensive mods. The business class seats in the 777 aren't that horrible that they have to spend the money to replace them with Polaris seats just to retire them in 5 years. Seems to be a huge waste. The 777 seat is flat bed and you do get the upgraded Polaris service. Why not simply accelerate the refurbs on the 787 and leave the 777 as is, after all, the 787 will be around for a heck of a lot longer than the 777.

Also, if you remember back when DL refurbished the 747 and then approximately 5 years afterwards announced its retirement, people on here raked DL across the coals for wasting money. So, I ask a perfectly legitimate question, is this a good approach for UA to take as opposed to the approach that DL took?


I completely understand the point you are making that from a financial standpoint it would be better for UA to upgrade the entire 787 fleet to the Polaris seat and just leave the 777's with the current layout. The problem is there is such a age difference in the fleet, if I'm not mistaken the oldest sUA 77E was delivered in 1997 and the last sCO 77E was delivered either in 2010 or 2011. While you probably are correct in your observation that it probably is a waste of money refurbishing an aircraft or a frame that will be retired in 5 years the truth is, it is the cost of doing business. United needs to move the wide body fleet toward a more unified product, right now you have the sUA 3 class product, the sCO 2 class product and the all new Polaris Seat. Some time ago I read on Flying Together United wants to focus on getting rid of the sUA 3 class seats first, the 3 class 763's have started modification and while I'm not sure when the 77E's are slated to begin modification UA can't afford to wait for the A359's to phase out the sUA seating configuration on the 77E's. I think DL made the right decision with their 744's and I think UA is making the right decision as well. Even though the sUA configuration is lie flat it needs to go and UA can't sit and wait till 2022.

But enough about the seats, congratulations to United and Airbus we now know what aircraft will replace part of the 77E fleet.
If the rumors are true UA either later this year or at some point next year will perhaps order 4 more 77W's to bring that fleet up to 22 frames then this move to convert the A350 order back to the A359 makes perfect sense because the 77W's and 35 A350-1000 would have be to much capacity for UA.
I still holding out hope that in addition to the current 45 on order UA will order the A359ULH I think now since the A359 will be added to the fleet a case could be made for the A359ULH, to open new nonstop routes to perhaps SYD from IAH or ORD, or SIN from ORD, or even India nonstop from ORD, and SFO. The 77W is to much capacity but perhaps the A359ULH with less seats than the standard A359 could make routes like these more viable in the future.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:35 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Well rumor was that UA couldn't take the A350 due to crew rest area issues. I guess we can put that rumor to a rest.


AFAIK, UAL ALPA still hasn't agreed to the crew issue for the A350. Also, I've seen a comment on FB by an ALPA rep that stated the same - no agreement yet.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
mcdu
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:53 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Well rumor was that UA couldn't take the A350 due to crew rest area issues. I guess we can put that rumor to a rest.


AFAIK, UAL ALPA still hasn't agreed to the crew issue for the A350. Also, I've seen a comment on FB by an ALPA rep that stated the same - no agreement yet.



They have at least 5 years to find a solution.

As for ALPA they were upset about the 65 737NG's and the dilution of the blended rate. They don't have that worry any longer. Be careful what ALPA wishes for, it often isn't in the best interest of the pilot group. ALPA is a political body filled with egos. They are not the savior they claim to be.
 
astuteman
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:59 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Well, there were rumours the current UA board was not too happy with discounts they received for the A35K order, so I guess Airbus had to concede something in that area. 45 A359's for the price of 35 A35K's would mean roughly 10% additional discount, but usually in these kind of negotiations parties meet halfway. UA didn't have much alternatives either, the 737-10 conversion rendered an A321neo order for UA unlikely, and the A330neo doesn't make much sense for UA IMO.

Yes, UA has already stated they can still reorder the A35K, who knows...


For me, it would make more sense, and be a better negotiated win-win for both parties if the A3510 price UA paid wasn't additionally discounted in the A350-900 purchase, but the sweetener for UA was placed in the "substantial number of attractively termed" options that UA clearly have now.
Clever for UA - they get great discounts in the future on a plane family that will clearly suit their needs.
Clever for Airbus as it makes it really difficult for UA to turn their backs on the options in years to come.
Win-Win :)

Rgds
 
VC10er
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:04 pm

Congratulations to both Airbus and United. It seems like a brilliant solve!

In the coming years United will have a very impressive fleet of new aircraft with new interiors and a great PREMIUM experience.

I wonder if they will refit the 772's that will go first in 2022 with Polaris or just leave them as is for 4.5 years.

My only problem with this is I want everything NOW! I hate the idea of waiting 4 to 10 years before flying on these beautiful airplanes. But the BIG question really is: will the A350's have Channel 9?
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:32 pm

United1 wrote:
blockski wrote:
Boeing778X wrote:


I wouldn't assume the A359s will completely replace the 777-200ERs. Something like ~20 of those -200ERs are ex-Continental planes that were delivered between 2010 and 2011; they're substantially newer than the ex-United aircraft.

I count the current 777 fleet as:

19 777A, ex-United, delivered 1995-2000
33 777-222ERs, ex-United, delivered 1997-2002
22 777-224ERs, ex-Continental, delivered 2010-2011
14 777-322ERs, new, delivered 2016-present


The 777-224ERs are on average a bit newer than the 222ERs but they are not that much newer...the bulk of the 224s were delivered between 1998 and 2002 with a couple in 2007 and 2010. You are probably looking at the dates the 224s were inducted into UAs fleet.


Correct, the average age of UA 772 fleet:
772A (sUA) 20 years
772E (sUA) 16.6
772E (sCO) 16.1

The error is going with AirFleets, which shows the acquired date of sCO units in 2010, date of merger. You can see all units better on the fleet site.
https://sites.google.com/site/unitedfleetsite/ - go to link onear top for UA Mainline Fleet - lots more info.
 
SonomaFlyer
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:49 pm

The refurbishment of the 77Es depends on a number of factors including having it done during a heavy maintenance check so both jobs could be done at once. It looks like the emphasis will be on converting the 3-class 222ERs first and within that subgroup, lining them up according to heavy maintenance schedules. The sCO birds would go after again depending on their maintenance cycles.
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:08 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
Is 45 x 900s worth the same as 35 x 1000s? If so, not much gain for Airbus


UA has 55 777-200ERs, so it's possible that the order could grow even more.

I believe the A350 will take over the longer 77E missions, with the 78J on the shorter ones. This is a great move by UA!

It also kills the rumors of converting to A321neo(LR)s, leaving the door open to a MoM order. Exciting times ahead!
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kaitak744
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:20 pm

A more pressing issue before replacing the 777-200ERs is replacing the 767-300ERs, which the A350s will obviously not do.

Also, the domestic 777-200s will be 30 years old by 2025. 787-10s to replace these?

This also opens the possibility for the 777-9 for United.
 
ikramerica
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:39 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
fightforlove wrote:
This conversion, along with United's decision to take 77Ws rather than waiting another 1-2 years for the A35K, raises doubts as to how much better the A35K is than the 77W? The 77Es are getting old so replacing them makes sense, but this, along with DL's cancellation of 787s in favor of taking more A330/neo, raises question of how much more efficient are the 787/A350 overall compared to the previous generation of wide bodies?


It doesn't make me question how much better the A35K is than the 77W. What I question is the price Airbus is charging for the A35K. With UA switching its orders, the plane is down to 177 orders. Usually stretches have superior economics to shorter versions for only marginally higher operating costs. It's not all that common for an airline to switch to a smaller version of a plane. More often they upgrade to the stretch, so it makes me think Airbus may be over pricing the A350-1000. Or it simply could be that UA wants to more closely match 777-200ER capacity.

When the A350K was launched I questioned whether all the promises could be met. It seemed that to achieve range, payload vs the 777/744/340 would be severely limited.

UA helped verify this today. They gave up the idea the A350 could replace the 744, and instead decided the thirstier 77W still makes more sense. The A350-1000 is not dominating A350 orders the way the 77W took over the 777 order book.

The A359 is the real winner of the bunch for Airbus. This might be due to the double stretch nature of the -1000. I know airbus claims that the baseline is the -900 but from original development the -800 was the baseline with the -900 the more capable stretch.

As for UA, they are simply kicking the can once again. Deferring until 2022 means the A359 will be 7 years old based on 10 year old tech. That's usually when manufacturers look at Gen2 models, so UA may be deferring in order to wait to see what airbus comes up with. A350-neo anyone?
Last edited by ikramerica on Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stitch
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:47 pm

ikramerica wrote:
(UA) gave up the idea the A350 could replace the 744, and instead decided the thirstier 77W still makes more sense.


The 777-300ER is available today, Boeing is offering significant discounts off list and fuel is cheap. It looks a lot better as a 747 replacement today then it did five years ago when UA planned their A350-900 to A350-1000 swap.


ikramerica wrote:
The A350-1000 is not dominating A350 orders the way the 77W took over the 777 order book.


Neither is the 777-9 outside of Emirates.

As has been noted many times, we're still very early in the 777-300ER's replacement cycle. We're probably still a good decade away before we start seeing serious replacements and 777-300ER operators can afford to wait to see how the A350-1000 and 777-9 perform to refine their internal models before they start issuing RFPs.
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:48 pm

a lot of the speculation is very good and on point, however.. we are getting the A350 because We couldn't CANCEL the order without paying through the NOSE!! Airbus has made the deal favorable for sure. But Not favorable enough to displace any Boeing orders, And? It doesn't mean there won't be more B777 orders.
 
deltal1011man
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:15 am

blockski wrote:
Any word on engines? That was also rumored to be an issue.

as far as?

The only rumor I have heard is United wants to replace the Pratt 4000 overhauls with something. They wanted the US AMC for Trent XWBs that went to Delta TechOps. I'm not sure if Rolls will do two AMCs in the US or not. As I said in another thread I expect at least one GEnX between AA and UA to happen.


KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Let's try to avoid the insipid "I'm Right, You're A Hater!" mentality that's all over this board.

Everyone was right about some aspect of this deal to some degree.

Rumours were clear that UA wasn't preparing to take the A350s soon-ish. Some said that meant they would "never" take the frames. But how to deal with all those huge deposits? Now we see, "never" just meant finding a way to defer using those deposits for an airplane that clearly is a great fit for the 772ER replacement role that clearly had to happen.


Well rumor was that UA couldn't take the A350 due to crew rest area issues.

I guess we can put that rumor to a rest.

because no airline has ever made an order or changed an order without having everything ironed with its pilots. ;)

The crew rest is still a problem, as noted, but UA and UALPA now have plenty of time to work the issue out, plus the CBA becomes amenable in 2019.

Revelation wrote:
Well, that rumor wasn't all that credit worthy to begin with. It always seemed to be a squabble between the UA pilots and management, not a FAA issue. Now we see the A350s are coming to UA in the 2021 time frame, which means either there never was such an issue, or UA thinks it will be ironed out by 2021, or that UA is just ignoring the pilot's complaints. So in that sense, I don't know if this news puts that (weak) rumor to rest or not, but I never viewed the issue as a show stopper, despite what some were saying.

actually it was. The issue was a FA and a CX pilot both then got into an argument over things they didn't have any clue about. Said CX pilot couldn't understand why it wouldn't work for UA if it worked for CX and then was using regulations (but NOT the United pilots working agreement) as a source. The FA was arguing with the right idea but didn't know specifics

but a few well known UA pilots and people in UA's training dept (also pilots because IIRC UALPA doesn't allow contractors like DALPA does) have said many times it was an issue. The main problem is a.net has gotten to a point that airline employees are told they are wrong even when right.

The order has been kicked down the road serval years plus it is past the amenable date for the PWA. More than likely UA/UALPA will come to an agree/solution between now and the first date. If not the order will be moved/converted/canceled. Its that simple.

Just look back at the issue Delta and its pilots had with the 777, its the exact same here except United was smart enough to change the order do they didn't end up with A350s they couldn't fly over 8 hours like DL did with the 777.
 
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mercure1
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:53 am

For those keeping score:

DEC 2009, PMUA announced 25x A350-900s, inked MAR 2010.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110613115 ... %2C00.html
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... craft.html

MAY 2010, Merger with CO

JUN 2013, United converts 25x A350-900s to 35x A350-1000 @ Paris Airshow, to replace the aged 747-400 fleet
http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... craft.html

APR 2015, United coverts 10x 787 orders into 10x 777-300ERs to replace 747-400 fleet
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-411529/

SEP 2017, United coverts 35x A350-1000s to 45x A350-900s to replace the ageing 777-200ER fleet, starting in late 2022 (nearly 13 years after the original Tilton order).
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... SKCN1BH1P8

What about the ageing 767-300ER and 757-200 fleets (some 767-300ERs are over 24yrs old). Hmmm
mercure f-wtcc
 
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RL777
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:07 am

Good move for UA, the availability of the 77W made the A35K unnecessary at least for now. I imagine UA will revisit it as mentioned by management sometime next decade but for now the focus shifts to 77E replacement in which the A359 will do well. The A359 is perfect for the TPAC routes currently served by the 777.
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:17 am

I can't help but think the -1000 might be better for future growth. The 359 might fit the bill "right now" but the higher CASM on comparable trip costs won't help down the road.
 
jumbojet
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:19 am

jayunited wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
First, congrats to UA. Serious question, not meant to bash UA.

Being that they're replacing the 777's, why even bother sending the 777s in for refurbishment? If they're only going to be around for another 5 or so years, why waste the money on very expensive mods. The business class seats in the 777 aren't that horrible that they have to spend the money to replace them with Polaris seats just to retire them in 5 years. Seems to be a huge waste. The 777 seat is flat bed and you do get the upgraded Polaris service. Why not simply accelerate the refurbs on the 787 and leave the 777 as is, after all, the 787 will be around for a heck of a lot longer than the 777.

Also, if you remember back when DL refurbished the 747 and then approximately 5 years afterwards announced its retirement, people on here raked DL across the coals for wasting money. So, I ask a perfectly legitimate question, is this a good approach for UA to take as opposed to the approach that DL took?


I completely understand the point you are making that from a financial standpoint it would be better for UA to upgrade the entire 787 fleet to the Polaris seat and just leave the 777's with the current layout. The problem is there is such a age difference in the fleet, if I'm not mistaken the oldest sUA 77E was delivered in 1997 and the last sCO 77E was delivered either in 2010 or 2011. While you probably are correct in your observation that it probably is a waste of money refurbishing an aircraft or a frame that will be retired in 5 years the truth is, it is the cost of doing business. United needs to move the wide body fleet toward a more unified product, right now you have the sUA 3 class product, the sCO 2 class product and the all new Polaris Seat. Some time ago I read on Flying Together United wants to focus on getting rid of the sUA 3 class seats first, the 3 class 763's have started modification and while I'm not sure when the 77E's are slated to begin modification UA can't afford to wait for the A359's to phase out the sUA seating configuration on the 77E's. I think DL made the right decision with their 744's and I think UA is making the right decision as well. Even though the sUA configuration is lie flat it needs to go and UA can't sit and wait till 2022.

But enough about the seats, congratulations to United and Airbus we now know what aircraft will replace part of the 77E fleet.
If the rumors are true UA either later this year or at some point next year will perhaps order 4 more 77W's to bring that fleet up to 22 frames then this move to convert the A350 order back to the A359 makes perfect sense because the 77W's and 35 A350-1000 would have be to much capacity for UA.
I still holding out hope that in addition to the current 45 on order UA will order the A359ULH I think now since the A359 will be added to the fleet a case could be made for the A359ULH, to open new nonstop routes to perhaps SYD from IAH or ORD, or SIN from ORD, or even India nonstop from ORD, and SFO. The 77W is to much capacity but perhaps the A359ULH with less seats than the standard A359 could make routes like these more viable in the future.


Thanks for making it sensible. The 359 will give UA one of the youngest widebody and freshest fleets in the industry and judging by how well Polaris is doing, it will make for some very interesting competition down the road. This will definitely keep DL and AA on their toes.

Maybe they are going with the smaller 350 because they can more easily fill it with higher paying fares thus making more money as opposed to possibly having to fill the more expensive and bigger 350-1000 with garbage fares.
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:58 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Good 777-200ER replacement

And they now have a growth platform for the longest 789 routes, if those mature to needing a higher capacity. Win win!


hOMSaR wrote:
Why not just change the title of the previous topic and continue the discussion there?

Because who the hell wants to dig through dozens of posts dating back weeks, to find a new, big, and exciting announcement??????


Newbiepilot wrote:
UA has 55 777-200ERs, so it's possible that the order could grow even more.

Possible, but keep in mind that 789s, 78Xs, and 77Ws can contribute to some of that replacement as well.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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N14AZ
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:31 am

LAX772LR wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Why not just change the title of the previous topic and continue the discussion there?

Because who the hell wants to dig through dozens of posts dating back weeks, to find a new, big, and exciting announcement??????.

Homsar did not refer to the old thread that was started weeks or months ago but to this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1373061

It was started just one or two hours before UA's and Airbus confirmation. Instead of changing the title of the active thread (see link above), this present thread was started.
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:56 am

JetBuddy wrote:
Snip snip.. most interesting bits from United memo:

SonomaFlyer wrote:

Today we also announced significant changes to our Airbus A350 order, most notable of which is the timing of deliveries. We decided to defer these aircraft until 2022 to align with the replacement of our fleet of 55 Boeing 777-200ERs, which begin to turn 25 years old in 2023. Adjusting the timing of delivery of the A350s in no way limits our plan to grow and renew our fleet. We continue to take delivery of 777-300ERs, with the fleet growing to 18 aircraft by the end of next year, and will welcome our first 787-10 next year. Neither aircraft type was anticipated when we placed our original A350 order, and both types will fill our widebody growth needs over the next several years. In addition to our firm commitments shown below, we also plan to supplement our fleet with additional used aircraft.

Additionally, it was hard to justify having a small subfleet of 35 A350s spread out over our seven hubs, as there would be operational inefficiencies with crews, aircraft routings and spare parts, so we increased the order size to 45 aircraft. We also converted the order from the A350-1000 variant to the A350-900, which is a better fit for our network. We believe the smaller A350-900 is the better choice for United for our long range planning needs, as the A350-1000 is a larger aircraft that is comparable to the 18 777-300ERs being delivered through next year to replace the 747-400 fleet. Importantly, we have the ability to swap some of the A350-900 aircraft into the larger -1000 version if our views on aircraft size change over time.
The A350-900 is an outstanding aircraft with the size and range to be an excellent replacement for our 777-200ERs, and we have a substantial number of options we can exercise for more A350-900s. So if we decide to make this the sole replacement for the 777 fleet, we will be able to do so on similar, very attractive, economic terms.



I find it interesting that they are evaluating replacing the entire 777 fleet with A350s down the line. But with new 77W coming in, I'm sure that wouldn't happen for at least 12-15 years. Also notable that they have a lot of A350 options at favorable prices. Upgrades to -1000 might happen later as well.

We're going to replace the oldest B777's with the A350's We have to eventually take the 350 order anyway. So this is a damn good way to do it.. It does NOT mean United thinks the A350 is a better airplane. Not by A long SHOT.. But we had them on order and we HAVE to take then at some point. And the B777-200's are getting long in the Tooth. .And that's IT!!
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:16 am

Talk to me when the planes are on property. Its been 8 years since order placed and anuther 5 before they are scheduled to start. If UA realy wanted them, and they are available right now and UA holds delivery slots, they would be here. Its 5-10 more years to delay/cancel them
 
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ksfo777
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:39 am

I LOVE the 777. Unfortunately, most airlines are making economy class less comfortable with 3x4x3 seating. The 787 seating is also horrendous. Which makes the A350 more comfortable right now.

I do wonder if Boeing would ever respond to A350 eating into the 777-200ER replacement market. The 787 does a bit of that but probably not enough...
 
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hilram
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:48 am

JetBuddy wrote:
I find it interesting that they are evaluating replacing the entire 777 fleet with A350s down the line. But with new 77W coming in, I'm sure that wouldn't happen for at least 12-15 years. Also notable that they have a lot of A350 options at favorable prices. Upgrades to -1000 might happen later as well.


If I remember correctly, the 77W fleet are all on 10 year leases, right? So if they find out that they love the A359 so much they can always add on A35K to replace the 77W as they come off lease.
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:59 am

727200 wrote:
Talk to me when the planes are on property. Its been 8 years since order placed and anuther 5 before they are scheduled to start. If UA realy wanted them, and they are available right now and UA holds delivery slots, they would be here. Its 5-10 more years to delay/cancel them

Just accept reality please. UA has over the years increased their order from the initial 25 to 45 A359 and are now more comitted than ever to take them. The new management are very happy with the order and have also secured options for even more A350 going forward. A3559 will be a perfect fit for 777 replacement after 2022.
Can we please move on?
 
gloom
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:59 am

I also think this order could be seen as follows:
1. TATL - 787-10 fits in nicely
2. TPAC with pax and minimum cargo - 789
3. full pax, max cargo or extra seats for TPAC - 359
4. 77W on highest load.

When you look at how well 359 performs in any of these categories (being closest to replace on positions 1,2 and 4 - it's close to 787-10 and 777 in terms of pax count, can fly anywhere 789 can), it seems also to be the plane to "fill the gaps". Considering all this, win-win for UA.

Concerning discounts, it's quite likely they got extra bonus on that, it's quite usual when numbers go up. Still, they COULD have managed to negotiate discounts on next A deal, which would be A32x NEO. Quite likely, don't you think? Two birds with one stone - they get better plane for better price, AND get an extra on next deal with A.

Cheers,
Adam
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:25 am

fightforlove wrote:
This conversion, along with United's decision to take 77Ws rather than waiting another 1-2 years for the A35K, raises doubts as to how much better the A35K is than the 77W?


That is intentional. Question is how much revenue that has cost Boeing.
they must contain the A35K at all cost ( Just like the A380.
No holds barred in achieving that.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:09 am

I'll open the can of worms, what the hell...

United will eventually replace their 777-300ERs with A350-1000, in due time. Now - go ahead. Hate me all you want, Boeing cheergirls. xD
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
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scbriml
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:58 am

ikramerica wrote:
When the A350K was launched I questioned whether all the promises could be met. It seemed that to achieve range, payload vs the 777/744/340 would be severely limited.

UA helped verify this today. They gave up the idea the A350 could replace the 744, and instead decided the thirstier 77W still makes more sense.


The A350-1000 that's now close to delivery is a significantly better plane than the -1000 at A350 launch. If a 77W is capable of replacing a 744, then the A350-1000 is more than capable. UA's 77W purchase was opportunistic - low prices and early availability. I'm pretty sure if oil was at $100+ those 77Ws would have looked much less attractive vs. the -1000.

ikramerica wrote:
The A359 is the real winner of the bunch for Airbus. This might be due to the double stretch nature of the -1000. I know airbus claims that the baseline is the -900 but from original development the -800 was the baseline with the -900 the more capable stretch.


No, this is not correct. :shakehead:

The A350XWB was launched as a three member family - the -900 base model, the -800 as an optimised shrink and the -1000 as the stretch. The -800 died a death after Airbus decided to make it a simple shrink of the -900. The -900 was always designed tas the base model and to be the first produced.

It's interesting to note that Kirby specifically mentioned that UA can still elect to take the -1000. :scratchchin:

ikramerica wrote:
Deferring until 2022 means the A359 will be 7 years old based on 10 year old tech.


The A359 coming off the production line in 2022 will be even more capable than what's being delivered today.
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flee
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:58 am

I think that the biggest joker in the pack would be the oil price. If we go back to US$ 100 per barrel oil, you will see this order brought forward very quickly. Right now, they just want to keep CAPEX at low levels so that the company can report low borrowings and high profit numbers.
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:22 am

astuteman wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Well, there were rumours the current UA board was not too happy with discounts they received for the A35K order, so I guess Airbus had to concede something in that area. 45 A359's for the price of 35 A35K's would mean roughly 10% additional discount, but usually in these kind of negotiations parties meet halfway. UA didn't have much alternatives either, the 737-10 conversion rendered an A321neo order for UA unlikely, and the A330neo doesn't make much sense for UA IMO.

Yes, UA has already stated they can still reorder the A35K, who knows...


For me, it would make more sense, and be a better negotiated win-win for both parties if the A3510 price UA paid wasn't additionally discounted in the A350-900 purchase, but the sweetener for UA was placed in the "substantial number of attractively termed" options that UA clearly have now.
Clever for UA - they get great discounts in the future on a plane family that will clearly suit their needs.
Clever for Airbus as it makes it really difficult for UA to turn their backs on the options in years to come.
Win-Win :)

Rgds

Absolutely. The order started as 25 A359 as 747 replacement - now it's 45 A359 as 77E replacement. I wouldn't complain if I were at Airbus :) And UA has options both with Airbus and Boeing, with the flexibility to adjust their future widebody aircraft plans when the market requires them to do so :checkmark:
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:53 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
I'll open the can of worms, what the hell...

United will eventually replace their 777-300ERs with A350-1000, in due time. Now - go ahead. Hate me all you want, Boeing cheergirls. xD


It is not a can of worms. The airplanes are less than a year old with some not even built yet. That can is going to stay closed for over a decade.
 
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keesje
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:04 am

frigatebird wrote:
astuteman wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Well, there were rumours the current UA board was not too happy with discounts they received for the A35K order, so I guess Airbus had to concede something in that area. 45 A359's for the price of 35 A35K's would mean roughly 10% additional discount, but usually in these kind of negotiations parties meet halfway. UA didn't have much alternatives either, the 737-10 conversion rendered an A321neo order for UA unlikely, and the A330neo doesn't make much sense for UA IMO.

Yes, UA has already stated they can still reorder the A35K, who knows...


For me, it would make more sense, and be a better negotiated win-win for both parties if the A3510 price UA paid wasn't additionally discounted in the A350-900 purchase, but the sweetener for UA was placed in the "substantial number of attractively termed" options that UA clearly have now.
Clever for UA - they get great discounts in the future on a plane family that will clearly suit their needs.
Clever for Airbus as it makes it really difficult for UA to turn their backs on the options in years to come.
Win-Win :)

Rgds

Absolutely. The order started as 25 A359 as 747 replacement - now it's 45 A359 as 77E replacement. I wouldn't complain if I were at Airbus :) And UA has options both with Airbus and Boeing, with the flexibility to adjust their future widebody aircraft plans when the market requires them to do so :checkmark:


Anyone who ever saw the A350 as 747 replacement in the booming Asian markets, should not have ignored seat capacity, overfly rights, slot constrains and cargo from China.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:21 pm

scbriml wrote:

The A350-1000 that's now close to delivery is a significantly better plane than the -1000 at A350 launch. If a 77W is capable of replacing a 744, then the A350-1000 is more than capable. UA's 77W purchase was opportunistic - low prices and early availability. I'm pretty sure if oil was at $100+ those 77Ws would have looked much less attractive vs. the -1000.

Thats very true, but if oil was at $100+, there would have been a very strong incentive to replace the fuel guzzling 747s even faster and the 77W had been just as attractive with their early delivery slots.
 
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Re: UA changes order for 35 A350-1000s to 45 A350-900s

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:07 pm

mercure1 wrote:

What about the ageing 767-300ER and 757-200 fleets (some 767-300ERs are over 24yrs old). Hmmm


Agreed...but these planes seem to be here for the unforeseeable future, as they are the first planes to be retrofitted with new Polaris cabins.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos