Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8074
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:48 pm

I do cringe at the real or perceived though that all of these actions are being deemed heroic or being done for "publicity". The reality is that all people involved in the operation are doing their job, doing what is part of operations, and doing what they have to do, not expecting "publicity" that the media, social media, internet blogers, and PR departments appear to be latching on to in these cases.

One thing to keep in mind is that many of these people that live in these hurricane prone areas that have been through these storms before have a different perspective than those who live in other regions and/or are basing our opinions on what is being presented as mass hysteria by the media.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2571
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:55 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Cessna 172 Flying 101:

-never put yourself in a situation when you have no way out.

nobody has been able to answer this: if the flight took a delay?

you do realize that flights take delays all the time despite the best efforts and intentions of all parties involved.


Wow.

This thread is painful to read.

Are you guys serious?

Cessna 172 Flying 101?

Does a Cessna 172 have an MEL/CDL book that's a thousand pages long with all of the things that can be deferred in a matter of minutes?

Do you know what the probability is of taking a sudden, unanticipated delay on a jet that had everything working all the way down and merely needs to sit with it's APU running for a half hour while they board and add some fuel?

Probably better than 10000 to 1.

Maybe 20000 to 1 odds, or even better still.

The examples given in this thread of why the jet would suddently be grounded upon arrival at SJU are grasping for straws at best, and in some cases almost without any bearing any resemblance to reality whatsoever.

I cannot believe you started your post with "Cessna 172 Flying 101" when the discussion has been about a 737 at a large airport for the past 96 replies.


jfklganyc wrote:
May I remind everyone talking about industry best practices: The airline with the best meteorology department in the industry pressed on into a snow-covered runway at LaGuardia, landed with a tailwind on said short runway, and exited the runway resulting in an accident. 1.5 years ago.


That event, which you've brought up for who knows what reason, was about directional control in the MD-88 and unique issues it has with that.

Irrelevant to this SJU discussion entirely.
 
D L X
Posts: 12679
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:57 pm

Goboeing, are you familiar with AA1420?
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2111
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:58 pm

A mechanic is not needed to sign the logbook off as this would only happen if the plane broke and the pilot wrote something up. And does DL even staff maintenance at SJU?

Plenty of vendors and other airlines.

SJU isnt an ETOPS flight, its an EOW.
Last edited by Boof02671 on Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2571
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:01 pm

D L X wrote:
Goboeing, are you familiar with AA1420?


Of course.

Landing in windshear produced by a thunderstorm.

Go ahead and try to compare this to that if you'd like but it's night and day different.

Wind coming off of a hurricane in the distance is not the same as a thunderstorm cell sitting on top of the airport.

Irma wind is just wind. It's strong, but it doesn't shift directions over the course of the takeoff roll by 40, 50, 60 knots worth of wind component. It's just blowing around Irma and steadily increasing over a period of hours.

AA1420 experienced shear and microbursts as a storm that was right at their location proceeded to empty it's contents in the form of heavy rain and the wind that comes with it as it fans out from all directions.


So what on earth is your intent with bringing up AA1420?
 
N757ST
Posts: 1026
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:05 pm

And yes... it is an overnight.
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3629
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:08 pm

alfa164 wrote:
coairman wrote:
In my opinion it was a risky move that paid off......but the risk was high and appeared somewhat reckless and shows how arrogant DL can be at times as a company. A corporate culture of arrogance is not very admirable. DL is great at positive marketing and PR, but this flight was an example of arrogance......luckily it all worked out well for everyone.... If you look at the fact that this was a Catagory 5 hurricane and had unprecedented sustained winds of over 180 mph, It was very, very risky, especially if it took an unexpected turn to the south.

Are you an Airline Captain? Were you there? Have you watched the takeoff video (which certainly doesn't look "reckless" or "very, very risky" to this observer)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDo2eq8 ... e=youtu.be

Perhaps you and the previous poster with an anti-Delta agenda should get together and form a better airline. We will all look forward to seeing how you take care of your passengers and employees when the chips are down.


I heard that B6 is operating several crewmember ferry flights in an out of several Florida cities, in addition to many of their regularly scheduled flights before everything shuts down in So. Florida. That's how you look after your staff, you do it well in advance of dangerous weather, not as a Cat. 5 hurricane is bearing down on you.
As I wrote in a previous post, I don't believe any aspect of DL's flight operation to San Juan was unsafe, however the risks associated with this flight were not insignificant. To turn this thread into Delta having a better weather team than other airlines is laughable, unfounded and typical of the airliners.net DL fan club. This wasn't getting political evacuees out of Saigon in 1975, this was clearing out a few customers and employees before a major hurricane that everybody knew was coming for days. If one was to believe their meteorological department is "the best" - and lacking any sort of modesty, apparently - then we also must assess the decision to put their crewmembers in what could have been, potentially, a difficult situation. Not to mention the ground crew at SJU, either DL employees or business partners, working this flight when they surely would have been better off protecting other parts of the airport or their own homes and property. Amazing.
None shall pass!!!!
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:10 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
A mechanic is not needed to sign the logbook off as this would only happen if the plane broke and the pilot wrote something up. And does DL even staff maintenance at SJU?

Plenty of vendors and other airlines.

SJU isnt an ETOPS flight, its an EOW.


I don't know if DL has their own mechanics or not, but there probably weren't any other vendors or airlines with mechanics at the airport since the last flight was 2 hours earlier. I don't think DL would dispatch a flight without a mechanic available. Very few airlines do that (mostly charter or leisure airlines with quick turns) since the chance of something going in the logbook is too great of a risk.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2111
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:16 pm

Guess you havent heard of oncall maintenance?

More flights go to a non-maintenance station then a maintenance station in the US airline industry.
 
N757ST
Posts: 1026
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:17 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
A mechanic is not needed to sign the logbook off as this would only happen if the plane broke and the pilot wrote something up. And does DL even staff maintenance at SJU?

Plenty of vendors and other airlines.

SJU isnt an ETOPS flight, its an EOW.


I don't know if DL has their own mechanics or not, but there probably weren't any other vendors or airlines with mechanics at the airport since the last flight was 2 hours earlier. I don't think DL would dispatch a flight without a mechanic available. Very few airlines do that (mostly charter or leisure airlines with quick turns) since the chance of something going in the logbook is too great of a risk.


Many airlines if they were not sure of maintenance service availability would just throw a mechanic and some kind of fly away kit on board.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2111
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:18 pm

There wouldnt be a fly away kit placed onboard, one it takes up cargo space, two you dont know what thousands of parts on an airplane that would break.

Three SJU probably has a routine supply or Delta parts there for such occasions.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:23 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
There wouldnt be a fly away kit placed onboard, one it takes up cargo space, two you dont know what thousands of parts on an airplane that would break.

Three SJU probably has a routine supply or Delta parts there for such occasions.


I don't know of many narrowbody flights in the United States that have flyaway kits. It is possible that they could have had a mechanic jumpseat if they didn't think anyone would be available in SJU. I'm sure SJU has adequate spares. DL would have their own inventory with their own mechanic or a third party for the commonly replaced items.

Flyaway kits are used to more remote destinations or for charters. Possibly for less than daily flights to Central America or places like Africa or Moscow where parts frequently disappear.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4257
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:51 pm

This thread is veering off-topic. Please stick to the topic, or it will be locked.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:57 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Guess you havent heard of oncall maintenance?

More flights go to a non-maintenance station then a maintenance station in the US airline industry.


On call maintenance means there isn't a mechanic working for the airline meeting the plane. It doesn't mean there is no maintenance support available at the airport. Staying on topic, lack of maintenance could have been an issue for DL's flight in SJU if there was a logbook writeup.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2111
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:17 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Guess you havent heard of oncall maintenance?

More flights go to a non-maintenance station then a maintenance station in the US airline industry.


On call maintenance means there isn't a mechanic working for the airline meeting the plane. It doesn't mean there is no maintenance support available at the airport. Staying on topic, lack of maintenance could have been an issue for DL's flight in SJU if there was a logbook writeup.


"IF"
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:19 pm

You are correct IF. There are a lot of reasons that could have got the plane stuck in SJU. It would be pretty bad for something like a trash can door breaking that forced the flight to get cancelled and left people stranded and a 737 possibly stuck in hurricane force winds, hail and lightening.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2111
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:31 pm

The flight wouldnt have been dispatch if minor maintenance wasnt available.

And under certain circumstances MCU will give the pilot a verbal MEL depending on what the issue was and the flight would still be dispatched.
 
N212R
Posts: 330
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:05 pm

alfa164 wrote:
But somebody has to have the "best meteorological team"...if it isn't Delta, can you tell us who does?


Who will be the final arbiter in proclaiming what is at best a subjective choice and at worse an arrogant one? Are there any other BESTS that you wish to claim for your airline? Beware those foolishly prideful enough to make such vainglorious statements.



[
 
alfa164
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:23 pm

N212R wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
But somebody has to have the "best meteorological team"...if it isn't Delta, can you tell us who does?

Who will be the final arbiter in proclaiming what is at best a subjective choice and at worse an arrogant one? Are there any other BESTS that you wish to claim for your airline? Beware those foolishly prideful enough to make such vainglorious statements. [

I am not claiming it, and it's not my airline; I won't even fly them anymore (still seething about the destruction of the iconic PanAm terminal at JFK).

I do have to admit that, operationally, they seem to have done a good job here... and you certainly haven't contributed anything that would compel us to think otherwise. Whining is not evidence.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
goboeing
Posts: 2571
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:31 pm

richierich wrote:
I heard that B6 is operating several crewmember ferry flights in an out of several Florida cities, in addition to many of their regularly scheduled flights before everything shuts down in So. Florida. That's how you look after your staff, you do it well in advance of dangerous weather, not as a Cat. 5 hurricane is bearing down on you.


Well then . . . would you like to guess what airline is also operating ferry flights out of Florida for employees?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6112
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:33 pm

"JFK-SJU-JFK can be done on a turn. It's a few minutes short of 8 hours flight time"

If duty became an issue, plenty of places to stop.

This whole thread is just painful with armchair aviators and back seat operators baying for attention; refusing to believe real answers.

GF
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:47 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
"JFK-SJU-JFK can be done on a turn. It's a few minutes short of 8 hours flight time"

If duty became an issue, plenty of places to stop.

This whole thread is just painful with armchair aviators and back seat operators baying for attention; refusing to believe real answers.

GF


What is not factual about that comment? I am not an armchair aviator. It's what I do every day. Duty time and flight time are within limits to do JFK-SJU-JFK on a turn. Other flights in the Caribbean require an overnight.
 
N212R
Posts: 330
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:01 pm

alfa164 wrote:
I am not claiming it...


Whatever terminological inexactitude you say.

Somebody has to have the "best basketball team"...if it isn't the Golden State Warriors, can you tell us WHO does?

I am claiming that the GSW are the best basketball team. Just as you made the claim that Delta has the "best meteorological team". No amount of rhetorical legerdemain (try substituting the interrogative pronoun "who" in place of the indefinite pronoun "somebody") can disguise your opinion.
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3629
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:10 pm

goboeing wrote:
Well then . . . would you like to guess what airline is also operating ferry flights out of Florida for employees?


Honestly, my hope is 'all of them.'
I'm happy DL got Wednesday's JFK-SJU turn off without a hitch; it certainly raised some interesting responses on this site. Whether it was brave, foolhardy, or anything in between, if they had turned back to JFK, we wouldn't be discussing it!
None shall pass!!!!
 
goboeing
Posts: 2571
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:15 pm

richierich wrote:
goboeing wrote:
Well then . . . would you like to guess what airline is also operating ferry flights out of Florida for employees?


Honestly, my hope is 'all of them.'
I'm happy DL got Wednesday's JFK-SJU turn off without a hitch; it certainly raised some interesting responses on this site. Whether it was brave, foolhardy, or anything in between, if they had turned back to JFK, we wouldn't be discussing it!


Realize that you are advocating for airlines picking up employees in Florida and flying them out, but you have argued against this being done by DL in SJU even though the dispatcher/meteorology department would have conferred with the PIC about the situation, as well as the station.

And that ~190 people, pax and employees, were taken out of there after it was deemed safe to operate the flight.
 
richierich
Moderator
Posts: 3629
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:51 pm

goboeing wrote:
richierich wrote:
goboeing wrote:
Well then . . . would you like to guess what airline is also operating ferry flights out of Florida for employees?


Honestly, my hope is 'all of them.'
I'm happy DL got Wednesday's JFK-SJU turn off without a hitch; it certainly raised some interesting responses on this site. Whether it was brave, foolhardy, or anything in between, if they had turned back to JFK, we wouldn't be discussing it!


Realize that you are advocating for airlines picking up employees in Florida and flying them out, but you have argued against this being done by DL in SJU even though the dispatcher/meteorology department would have conferred with the PIC about the situation, as well as the station.

And that ~190 people, pax and employees, were taken out of there after it was deemed safe to operate the flight.


You do realize that today is 24-36 hours before the worst of Irma is due to pass over southern Florida, right? Wednesday's flight to SJU was when the storm was already on the island. Thank goodness the turn was quick and they left earlier than the scheduled departure time - we all know the reason why. My guess is a 30-minute hang-up (maybe less than that?), for any reason, and this flight might not have left at all. See the difference? No need to get snarky on here - I think we all understand the difference between evacuating So. Florida today or tomorrow morning versus nipping in a flight under the outer bands of a major storm just when things are starting to get dicey.
The flight was flown safely, of this I have no doubt, but there was a chance of something to go wrong and the plane and crew being stuck at SJU. I am not panning DL for doing the right thing to help their employees, I am critical of the the decision to operate this flight. It was clearly a close call. If you think it was gutsy or because of superior meteorologists, that's your opinion, but I think this was a dodgy move. Fun to watch on my app, and no doubt welcomed by those that boarded at SJU, but this operation was hardly playing it safe.
None shall pass!!!!
 
D L X
Posts: 12679
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:04 pm

goboeing wrote:
D L X wrote:
Goboeing, are you familiar with AA1420?


Of course.

Landing in windshear produced by a thunderstorm.

Go ahead and try to compare this to that if you'd like but it's night and day different.

Wind coming off of a hurricane in the distance is not the same as a thunderstorm cell sitting on top of the airport.

Irma wind is just wind. It's strong, but it doesn't shift directions over the course of the takeoff roll by 40, 50, 60 knots worth of wind component. It's just blowing around Irma and steadily increasing over a period of hours.

AA1420 experienced shear and microbursts as a storm that was right at their location proceeded to empty it's contents in the form of heavy rain and the wind that comes with it as it fans out from all directions.


So what on earth is your intent with bringing up AA1420?

No. Aa1420 did not crash due to microbursts. Aa1420 crashed because the pilots were in such a hurry to beat the storm that they accidentally skipped steps that would have ensured a safe landing on a rain soaked strip. They successfully got the plane down but having not armed the spoilers, hydroplaned and eventually slid off the end of the runway hitting the runway lights. You know this.

You also know that get-there-itis is dangerous and this is the reason why. That's my issue with this turn and why I stated up front that it would have been better to send an extra section in an hour earlier than take the risks this turn took.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2571
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:10 pm

richierich wrote:
The flight was flown safely, of this I have no doubt, but there was a chance of something to go wrong and the plane and crew being stuck at SJU. I am not panning DL for doing the right thing to help their employees, I am critical of the the decision to operate this flight. It was clearly a close call. If you think it was gutsy or because of superior meteorologists, that's your opinion, but I think this was a dodgy move. Fun to watch on my app, and no doubt welcomed by those that boarded at SJU, but this operation was hardly playing it safe.


The whole argument for having this flight cancel instead of operating as it did is based on "what ifs."

DL made the decision that the 10000 to 1 odds of a sudden, lengthy, non-deferrable mechanical problem was so small they'd operate the flight in the weather (which was not too bad at all, no worse than a gusty day after a cold front passes through on a winter day in the northeast).

In that case, ~7 crew would just have to go stay somewhere just like the SJU station employees. Chock the airplane and head out.

My next post will hopefully shut this entire discussion down as the weather never even got bad at SJU airport.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2571
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:16 pm

D L X wrote:
goboeing wrote:
No. Aa1420 did not crash due to microbursts. Aa1420 crashed because the pilots were in such a hurry to beat the storm that they accidentally skipped steps that would have ensured a safe landing on a rain soaked strip. They successfully got the plane down but having not armed the spoilers, hydroplaned and eventually slid off the end of the runway hitting the runway lights. You know this.

You also know that get-there-itis is dangerous and this is the reason why. That's my issue with this turn and why I stated up front that it would have been better to send an extra section in an hour earlier than take the risks this turn took.


But you've brought get-there-itis into this discussion why?

The AA1420 crew could have setup a holding pattern for 30 minutes and waited for the storm to pass. They didn't, they pressed on and as you've said, they let a hurried mentality get the best of them.

But this 737 was no different than a normal quick turn. If something really important breaks, then it's time to leave the jet there and head out with the SJU station people.

If everything goes smoothly, they do a quick-turn...which would actually be easier than some quick turns we do on a regular basis because there'd be:
- No airplane change
- No walk from terminal to terminal
- No need to stop and get in line for food someplace to bring something to eat on the next flight
- No unpacking one's belongings in the cockpit and starting the initial preflight process all over again.

Just pull into the gate, shut it down, one goes out to knock out a walkaround and the other grabs the paperwork and starts prepping things.

The pilots were probably done all of their work before the first boarding zone was seated.

So where's the get-there-itis? Again, if something breaks, it's either deferrable or it's not...but it can only be done at one speed, whatever it is.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2571
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:20 pm

Okay, I decided to scroll through the METARs at TJSJ airport as Irma passed and now I am almost laughing and embarrassed to have taken part in this discussion.


The wind never even got above 55 knots!


There was a day in DTW this past winter where the 27s were being used because it was gusty and when we were cleared to land tower gave the winds to us, 270 at 51. Straight down the pike.


This is the peak wind based on all of the METARs before and after Irma passed by:


TJSJ 062113Z AUTO 30032G55KT 1 3/4SM -RA BR BKN014 OVC023 27/26 A2932 RMK AO2 PK
WND 30055/2106 PRESFR P0003 T02670256 TSNO



I think dispatch looked at the storm location, speed, track, TJSJ TAF, and decided there was simply no reason to no operate the flight. I agree completely.

Could have chocked this plane and came back and it'd be in the same spot ready to go.

Much ado about nothing!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6112
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:54 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
"JFK-SJU-JFK can be done on a turn. It's a few minutes short of 8 hours flight time"

If duty became an issue, plenty of places to stop.

This whole thread is just painful with armchair aviators and back seat operators baying for attention; refusing to believe real answers.

GF


What is not factual about that comment? I am not an armchair aviator. It's what I do every day. Duty time and flight time are within limits to do JFK-SJU-JFK on a turn. Other flights in the Caribbean require an overnight.


Please read what I wrote...IF DUTY TIME...". I did not say it wasn't factual, just that options existed for delays resulting in exceeding 8 hours.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:58 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
"JFK-SJU-JFK can be done on a turn. It's a few minutes short of 8 hours flight time"

If duty became an issue, plenty of places to stop.

This whole thread is just painful with armchair aviators and back seat operators baying for attention; refusing to believe real answers.

GF


What is not factual about that comment? I am not an armchair aviator. It's what I do every day. Duty time and flight time are within limits to do JFK-SJU-JFK on a turn. Other flights in the Caribbean require an overnight.


Please read what I wrote...IF DUTY TIME...". I did not say it wasn't factual, just that options existed for delays resulting in exceeding 8 hours.


I read you calling me an armchair aviator, which i feel is insulting. The discussion about duty time was in reference to another poster talking about SXM turns never including an overnight. SJU is not like that since it can be done on a turn since total flight time is under 8 hours. Have a nice day.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:14 pm

N212R wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
I am not claiming it...

Whatever terminological inexactitude you say.
Somebody has to have the "best basketball team"...if it isn't the Golden State Warriors, can you tell us WHO does?
I am claiming that the GSW are the best basketball team. Just as you made the claim that Delta has the "best meteorological team". No amount of rhetorical legerdemain (try substituting the interrogative pronoun "who" in place of the indefinite pronoun "somebody") can disguise your opinion.

Your boldness in perpetrating falsehoods never ceases to amaze us. Please point out where I said, "Delta has the best meteorological team".You won't find it. When it had been stated previously, then debated by others with dubious agendas, I asked "if not Delta, then who?" That is a serious question; someone has to be best. Who?

Your terminological inexactitude - or maybe your lack of reading ability - is conspicuous. And your determination to embarrass yourself seems unstoppable.



The role of a.net seems to have become a forum for people with no experience or expertise can second-guess those who do have those attributes...:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
N212R
Posts: 330
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:54 am

alfa164 wrote:
Your boldness in perpetrating falsehoods never ceases to amaze us.


You conveniently launch a personal attack but fail to respond to the crux of my assertion. Somehow that failed, misdirectional tactic doesn't surprise us.

WHO indeed has the "best meteorological team?" You are correct in calling it a serious question. As you say, "someone has to be the best." Please share with us your learned opinion on who that best would be.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:51 am

Its all over the news now. Every major publication and news outlet is carrying the story. Absolutely is it great PR for DL. They were even able to interview some of the passengers. One of the passengers actually took video of the plane taking off from PR. She gave the flight an 11 on a scale of 1 to 10. Whether you like Delta or not, this is aviating at its best.

You can watch the video here, over 100,000 views already.

An Inside Look at the Delta Flight That Narrowly Missed Hurricane Irma


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAwYXi8bP2w
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:22 am

Another article by business insider which correlates directly to this thread.

Travelers have been working hard to get out of Puerto Rico, while many of the US island territory's residents have been trying to get home before the massive storm hits.
In fact, three jets, two from JetBlue and one from American, tried to sneak into the nation's capital, San Juan, before the storm but were forced to turn back.
But a lone Boeing 737-900ER, Delta Flight 431 from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport, managed to land in San Juan shortly after noon on Wednesday


More here:

http://www.businessinsider.com/hurrican ... orm-2017-9

Obviously Delta didn't plan on it nor did they intentionally fly the route for PR but turns out that's exactly what they got and rightfully so.
 
D L X
Posts: 12679
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:51 pm

goboeing wrote:
D L X wrote:
goboeing wrote:
No. Aa1420 did not crash due to microbursts. Aa1420 crashed because the pilots were in such a hurry to beat the storm that they accidentally skipped steps that would have ensured a safe landing on a rain soaked strip. They successfully got the plane down but having not armed the spoilers, hydroplaned and eventually slid off the end of the runway hitting the runway lights. You know this.

You also know that get-there-itis is dangerous and this is the reason why. That's my issue with this turn and why I stated up front that it would have been better to send an extra section in an hour earlier than take the risks this turn took.


But you've brought get-there-itis into this discussion why?


I'd say it's pretty obvious why. DL431 had to get to SJU as the hurricane was already on the island, hoping to get in and out before it got too bad. There is no reasonable argument that the flight was not in a hurry, and there is no reasonable argument that all pilots would have made the same choice.

Image

The AA1420 crew could have setup a holding pattern for 30 minutes and waited for the storm to pass. They didn't, they pressed on and as you've said, they let a hurried mentality get the best of them.


Yup, but this isn't about what the AA1420 crew could done differently--it's about the choices DL431 made that were similar to AA1420. Entering a holding pattern was not an option for DL431 lest they would not be able to complete the DL305 turn.

But this 737 was no different than a normal quick turn. If something really important breaks, then it's time to leave the jet there and head out with the SJU station people.

If everything goes smoothly, they do a quick-turn...which would actually be easier than some quick turns we do on a regular basis because there'd be:
- No airplane change
- No walk from terminal to terminal
- No need to stop and get in line for food someplace to bring something to eat on the next flight
- No unpacking one's belongings in the cockpit and starting the initial preflight process all over again.

Just pull into the gate, shut it down, one goes out to knock out a walkaround and the other grabs the paperwork and starts prepping things.

The pilots were probably done all of their work before the first boarding zone was seated.


So where's the get-there-itis? Again, if something breaks, it's either deferrable or it's not...but it can only be done at one speed, whatever it is.


My argument has never been that this was risky because of the chance something would have broken. Brand new plane, that's unlikely. (You can go back and look at my posts here and see that I am consistent.) I don't even really have a problem with DL305! I've flown between bands of a hurricane, and it's surprisingly calm. My argument from my very first post is that it would have been MUCH better to have gone in an hour earlier and remove the race condition completely.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6112
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:53 pm

Any evidence DL Ops could have operated the flights earlier and decided to delay? If they could have run the flights, do you not think they would have preferred to do so?

You are the one questioning their operation of this flight, not I, so it is incumbent on you to provide evidence.

GF
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3641
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:29 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Any evidence DL Ops could have operated the flights earlier and decided to delay? If they could have run the flights, do you not think they would have preferred to do so?

You are the one questioning their operation of this flight, not I, so it is incumbent on you to provide evidence.

GF


It was a regularly scheduled flight. Delta has a regularly scheduled JFK-SJU flight that leaves at 8:05am. This wasn't an additional section or charter, so scheduling an early departure would have required more planning. Rather than doing that, I think that if DL Ops didn't think they could get the flight in and out they would have cancelled rather than trying to go earlier.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2571
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:34 am

As a reminder, the wind did not even get above 55 knots at TJSJ:

TJSJ 062113Z AUTO 30032G55KT 1 3/4SM -RA BR BKN014 OVC023 27/26 A2932 RMK AO2 PK
WND 30055/2106 PRESFR P0003 T02670256 TSNO


This one METAR renders this entire discussion a moot point.

Barely more than a windy autumn day in the midwest/northeast following a cold front.

Not weather you'd want to fly in, but if a breakdown meant parking the jet in that weather . . . no big deal.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6112
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:04 am

I agree, Newbiepilot. It was a completely normal flight.

GF
 
D L X
Posts: 12679
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:28 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Any evidence DL Ops could have operated the flights earlier and decided to delay? If they could have run the flights, do you not think they would have preferred to do so?

You are the one questioning their operation of this flight, not I, so it is incumbent on you to provide evidence.

GF

I'm not at liberty to share all that I might know, but surely you don't believe there are no spare aircraft available at their ATL hub on a given day.
 
D L X
Posts: 12679
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:04 pm

goboeing wrote:
Okay, I decided to scroll through the METARs at TJSJ airport as Irma passed and now I am almost laughing and embarrassed to have taken part in this discussion.


The wind never even got above 55 knots!


Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? It can sanitize all your decisions. What were the conditions at the time DL431 approached (not 5pm like in your METAR)? It looks like there was a thunderstorm on the airfield in the radar image I showed you. The kind of thing that makes soaked runways, gusty variable winds, and lightning that would prevent ground crews from servicing the aircraft.

Of course we can make a colorable argument that the flight was conducted safely and professionally. But your assertion that it was a fairly "normal" day is belied by these facts and by the fact that three other jets turned back under the same conditions.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a gap in the METARs because they evacuated the tower:

Image


So, the weather was bad enough that they left the tower and stopped reporting the weather until it was safe enough to come back. Is my understanding correct?



There was a day in DTW this past winter where the 27s were being used because it was gusty and when we were cleared to land tower gave the winds to us, 270 at 51. Straight down the pike.



I remember that day. A plane crashed at YIP that day just up the road.
 
DTWLAX
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:19 pm

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:12 am

While some termed this flight by DL as heroic and brave, some criticized the operation of this flight as risky and dangerous. But here is some insight into what went on behind the scenes and the planning for the operation of this flight.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/here%E ... ailsignout

I think it was all carefully planned with backup plans in place if anything went wrong. It was a calculated risk but it all worked out perfectly well in the end.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:04 am

DTWLAX wrote:
While some termed this flight by DL as heroic and brave, some criticized the operation of this flight as risky and dangerous. But here is some insight into what went on behind the scenes and the planning for the operation of this flight.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/here%E ... ailsignout

I think it was all carefully planned with backup plans in place if anything went wrong. It was a calculated risk but it all worked out perfectly well in the end.


I just read that article. Very intriguing about what went on behind the scenes to get 431 in and out. Coordination with TSA, government officials and the airport authority and DL's operations center helped make this possible. Also, there is a brief snippet with the pilot. The article mentions the other 3 planes that turned back, obviously referring to the two JetBlue and one AA plane that turned tail and diverted.

quote from the article

“With Irma’s outer band already hitting Puerto Rico, prompting other flights to divert, Delta meteorologists were confident the band would pass, creating a window during which winds and rain would subside significantly and allow for the flight’s safe arrival,” Delta said
It wasn’t even that bumpy till we got close,” Vorhees said. “We knew timing would be critical, but otherwise Janine and meteorology made it easy.”

Flight 431 arrived at the gate a minute after noon to nine miles of visibility and light rain, the airline said. It had encountered light to moderate turbulence as it approached landing. Winds were well below safe operating limits at around 28 mph, and gusts up to 36 mph.
Irma was 90 miles away,. Boarding began just a few minutes later and at 12:41 p.m. the aircraft took off as DL302, with 173 passengers on board, flying in between Irma’s bands.
Eight minutes later, the airport closed.

But the crew said they were prepared for rough weather. ​
“We were prepared for heavy windshear, crosswinds, strong tailwinds, but it was no worse than a summer thunderstorm in Atlanta,” said Joyce, the pilot, who is based in New York.
The best part, Vikki Panan, one of the flight attendants, said in the Delta account, was getting the passengers out to safety.
“I am so proud of what we did,” she said. “Those customers who flew out [of San Juan] were so grateful that we got them out. They clapped and cheered when we landed back safely in JFK.”.
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:54 pm

Delta is at it again. Last one in last one out. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL549
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2957
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:32 am

flymia wrote:
Delta is at it again. Last one in last one out. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL549


this one is showing as cancelled. you sure you have the right flight #?

Strange, when you click on the link you provided the flight shows as cancelled yet when you run the flight # in Delta.com it shows as leaving ATL 2 hours early and arriving SJU 2 1/2 hours early. Nonetheless, it looks like DL once again has the last flight in and out of SJU.
 
D L X
Posts: 12679
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:33 am

flymia wrote:
Delta is at it again. Last one in last one out. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL549

Landed a full 4 hours before the hurricane hit.

Takeoff appears to be a ferry flight number:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 62#eec4325

Significantly less dramatic than racing in before the storm and flying between the storm's bands.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6112
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:45 am

DLX,

You're understanding is correct, but they evacuated the tower an hour after DL departed and before IRMA approached. I believe DL has spares, but IF they could have operated earlier, why didn't they? Airlines aren't going to fky at the last moments just to satisfy armchair aviators with "scary" stories. It wasn't unsafe, just as the crew said--a summer day in ATL.
 
phllax
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

Re: Delta 431 at SJU (9/6)

Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:25 am

There are so many questions about the operation of the flights I would ask: did they use auto land on 431 due to the weather, did both flights have free range in navigating while transversing the storm, or did they still have to clear every deviation and turn with ATC; did 302 take off using TOGA or de-rated thrust; did they have the normal 250 knot speed restriction under 10,000, or were they allowed "normal speed"; when did the auto-pilot get engaged on the way out to allow the pilots to deal with the navigating; did they communicate with dispatch/flight planners over ACARS or radio; how bad was wing flex; how bad was the fish tailing in the back; when did the seat belt sign go off...

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos