DfwRevolution
Posts: 9257
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:30 pm

c933103 wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
2.Even if they could, I would think twice about boarding thousands of people onto military transports. Generally speaking, military aviation has a significantly higher accident rate than commercial aviation. Military service is dangerous even during peacetime operations.

Is the risk greater than leaving people there? Sometimes youb would have to like what Israel have done in Ethiopia


Irma is a life-threatening storm but it isn't remotely an Ethiopia situation where a minority population faced imminent genocide. Evacuating millions of people is dangerous, too. The evacuation of Houston before Hurricane Rita actually killed more people than the storm itself. An evacuation is no time to start taking inordinate risks. For those inland who face no storm surge threat, they are probably safest riding our the storm and leaving the roads clear for those who legitimately must evacuate.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
c933103
Posts: 3826
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:39 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
c933103 wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
2.Even if they could, I would think twice about boarding thousands of people onto military transports. Generally speaking, military aviation has a significantly higher accident rate than commercial aviation. Military service is dangerous even during peacetime operations.

Is the risk greater than leaving people there? Sometimes youb would have to like what Israel have done in Ethiopia


Irma is a life-threatening storm but it isn't remotely an Ethiopia situation where a minority population faced imminent genocide. Evacuating millions of people is dangerous, too. The evacuation of Houston before Hurricane Rita actually killed more people than the storm itself. An evacuation is no time to start taking inordinate risks. For those inland who face no storm surge threat, they are probably safest riding our the storm and leaving the roads clear for those who legitimately must evacuate.

Make sense.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
phxsanslcpdx
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:36 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:03 pm

BlatantEcho wrote:
Modern society LOVES to tell other people what to do.
It's one of the highest forms of idiocy on display each day.

If you guys want to run charity airline flights for people, start an airline!
Donate your life savings to subsidize ticket prices or something!
Donate all your airmiles to charity today!
Charter a plane to make 5 runs down to Florida each day for the next week!

Oh, wait, yeah, none of you are doing that.
You'll argue on the internet telling someone ELSE what to do....
But, you can sit at home and act all self-righteous when no one does what you say....


BlatantEcho's spot-on. Airlines face limited resources and all the internal US ones, at least, are for-profit. In addition to maximizing shareholder value (legally mandated), they also all contribute to various charitable causes. If you demand that airlines dedicate their charitable giving to evacuating in front of hurricanes, then you're demanding to take those resources away from the opera or saving the whales or providing life-saving medical treatment or gay pride parades or whatever else the airline's leaders would choose to support.

The really terrible news is that the airlines, like many other businesses, seem to be shifting to a PR-focused business model in which they cave to various outbursts of outrage. The only way to do this effectively, of course, is to raise prices overall so that when they lose margins or actually take a loss when catering to some outraged group's demands, it still protects their bottom line. So everyone has to pay more for everything so that businesses can soothe loudmouths who want to tell them what to do with their money.

axiom wrote:
Can't believe someone is arguing that price fixing for essential services induces horsing when a single family holds more warpath than the bottom 40% of US. The naivety and ideological fetishism in the face of loss of life is outrageous.


The immense concentration of wealth in the hands of a few is a problem. The free enterprise system has delivered tremendous value to date, but this is a failing and deserves attention. But to attack the most beneficial mechanism of the free enterprise system (demand driving supply) because of inequality is, at best, very misguided--those efforts would be much better used in demanding direct solutions to the scale of structural inequality. At worst, this comes across as intentional misdirection.

axiom wrote:
How about a different paradigm, one through which basic needs in a time of disaster and crisis are met through other forms of organization not centered on speculative grounds or profiteering. Radical thought, radical thought.


Red Cross or other legitimate disaster relief organizations. Or start up your own charity, as BlatantEcho suggests.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2028
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:39 pm

One can also remember that in a truly life threatening situation during Alberta fires, WS and AC did setup an airbridge to evacuate people on their own dime.
However, that was a significantly different situation - relatively small group completely cut off from any other evacuation option and under imminent life threat, with Turdeau the Second government scratching their butt. Yes, some people do remember good stuff...
Florida situation is way different, though. No way to take everyone out - group is too big...
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4023
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:28 pm

jnev3289 wrote:
Great economic debates going on, but does anyone work in RM or know anyone who does?

I do
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4023
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:28 pm

What you guys should really be advocating for is the us military and guard flying evacuation c17s and c130s at no cost.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2028
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:33 pm

32andBelow wrote:
What you guys should really be advocating for is the us military and guard flying evacuation c17s and c130s at no cost.

This is what department of state says regarding evacuation from a foreign country in case of crisis:
Will the U.S. government pay for my travel? How much will it cost?

Departure assistance is expensive. U.S. law 22 U.S.C. 2671(b) (2) (A) requires that any departure assistance be provided "on a reimbursable basis to the maximum extent practicable.” This means that evacuation costs are ultimately your responsibility; you will be asked to sign a form promising to repay the U.S. government. We charge you the equivalent of a full coach commercial fare on a comparable mode of transportation at the time that commercial travel ceases to be a viable option. You will be taken to a nearby safe location, where you will need to make your own onward travel arrangements. Typically, you will not have an opportunity to select the destination to which we will take you; it will be to the nearest safe location (only in rare circumstances will that be to the United States). If you are destitute, and private resources are not available to cover the cost of onward travel, you may be eligible for emergency financial assistance.


Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/passpo ... pport.html
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:51 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
In my opinion it is not about what will win you good favor with the public. It is about doing the right thing in disasters like this. I think the right thing to do is to increase capacity when you can, and cap fares at a very good price. If I ran an airline I would rather take a loss knowing we helped save people's lives.


One point I don't see being made is how do you prevent people from flying who are going on vacation? My house is high and dry so lets go to PHX for a couple days just to stay out of the rain. I can argue their lives aren't being saved so why should they be able to buy a cheap ticket at the airlines expense just to go get some sun?

Now if you want to cap a fare and run rescue flights for people that are directly in harms way then yeah I support that. Unfortunately how do you prove that you HAVE to get out.

Being able to hop on an airplane and leave IS NOT a right it is a privilege. There are 1,000 other ways to evacuate.





I don't know. I just think that all available options should be open if possible, and that in an emergency like the Hurricanes that is not the time to be making a profit,
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:11 am

kalvado wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
What you guys should really be advocating for is the us military and guard flying evacuation c17s and c130s at no cost.

This is what department of state says regarding evacuation from a foreign country in case of crisis:
Will the U.S. government pay for my travel? How much will it cost?

Departure assistance is expensive. U.S. law 22 U.S.C. 2671(b) (2) (A) requires that any departure assistance be provided "on a reimbursable basis to the maximum extent practicable.” This means that evacuation costs are ultimately your responsibility; you will be asked to sign a form promising to repay the U.S. government. We charge you the equivalent of a full coach commercial fare on a comparable mode of transportation at the time that commercial travel ceases to be a viable option. You will be taken to a nearby safe location, where you will need to make your own onward travel arrangements. Typically, you will not have an opportunity to select the destination to which we will take you; it will be to the nearest safe location (only in rare circumstances will that be to the United States). If you are destitute, and private resources are not available to cover the cost of onward travel, you may be eligible for emergency financial assistance.


Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/passpo ... pport.html

That's a bit different since Florida is not a foreign country. Visiting a troubled foreign country is an immediate risk you have to willingly assume and thus it makes sense that, if you have to be evacuated, you bear some of the cost.

jeffrey1970 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
In my opinion it is not about what will win you good favor with the public. It is about doing the right thing in disasters like this. I think the right thing to do is to increase capacity when you can, and cap fares at a very good price. If I ran an airline I would rather take a loss knowing we helped save people's lives.


One point I don't see being made is how do you prevent people from flying who are going on vacation? My house is high and dry so lets go to PHX for a couple days just to stay out of the rain. I can argue their lives aren't being saved so why should they be able to buy a cheap ticket at the airlines expense just to go get some sun?

Now if you want to cap a fare and run rescue flights for people that are directly in harms way then yeah I support that. Unfortunately how do you prove that you HAVE to get out.

Being able to hop on an airplane and leave IS NOT a right it is a privilege. There are 1,000 other ways to evacuate.





I don't know. I just think that all available options should be open if possible, and that in an emergency like the Hurricanes that is not the time to be making a profit,

Then you really need to lean on governments and non-profits. Businesses aren't charities and are going to do what business are obligated to do (price accordingly to make sure they have supply to sell, account for risk and return on the investment of those stakeholders who have entrusted their money in a business), so it's not really fair to hold them up to the standard of charity.
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 2125
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:12 am

For Jeffery1970:

Right, and most everyone with any sense disagrees with the silly premise of your entire idea.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4023
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:45 am

jeffrey1970 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
jeffrey1970 wrote:
In my opinion it is not about what will win you good favor with the public. It is about doing the right thing in disasters like this. I think the right thing to do is to increase capacity when you can, and cap fares at a very good price. If I ran an airline I would rather take a loss knowing we helped save people's lives.


One point I don't see being made is how do you prevent people from flying who are going on vacation? My house is high and dry so lets go to PHX for a couple days just to stay out of the rain. I can argue their lives aren't being saved so why should they be able to buy a cheap ticket at the airlines expense just to go get some sun?

Now if you want to cap a fare and run rescue flights for people that are directly in harms way then yeah I support that. Unfortunately how do you prove that you HAVE to get out.

Being able to hop on an airplane and leave IS NOT a right it is a privilege. There are 1,000 other ways to evacuate.





I don't know. I just think that all available options should be open if possible, and that in an emergency like the Hurricanes that is not the time to be making a profit,

A lot of travelers are in emergencies on a daily basis. People have to buy 1500 dollar walk ups to visit their dying family members, every single day.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2028
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:57 am

flyguy89 wrote:
kalvado wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
What you guys should really be advocating for is the us military and guard flying evacuation c17s and c130s at no cost.

This is what department of state says regarding evacuation from a foreign country in case of crisis:
Will the U.S. government pay for my travel? How much will it cost?

Departure assistance is expensive. U.S. law 22 U.S.C. 2671(b) (2) (A) requires that any departure assistance be provided "on a reimbursable basis to the maximum extent practicable.” This means that evacuation costs are ultimately your responsibility; you will be asked to sign a form promising to repay the U.S. government. We charge you the equivalent of a full coach commercial fare on a comparable mode of transportation at the time that commercial travel ceases to be a viable option. You will be taken to a nearby safe location, where you will need to make your own onward travel arrangements. Typically, you will not have an opportunity to select the destination to which we will take you; it will be to the nearest safe location (only in rare circumstances will that be to the United States). If you are destitute, and private resources are not available to cover the cost of onward travel, you may be eligible for emergency financial assistance.


Source: https://travel.state.gov/content/passpo ... pport.html

That's a bit different since Florida is not a foreign country. Visiting a troubled foreign country is an immediate risk you have to willingly assume and thus it makes sense that, if you have to be evacuated, you bear some of the cost.

jeffrey1970 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

One point I don't see being made is how do you prevent people from flying who are going on vacation? My house is high and dry so lets go to PHX for a couple days just to stay out of the rain. I can argue their lives aren't being saved so why should they be able to buy a cheap ticket at the airlines expense just to go get some sun?

Now if you want to cap a fare and run rescue flights for people that are directly in harms way then yeah I support that. Unfortunately how do you prove that you HAVE to get out.

Being able to hop on an airplane and leave IS NOT a right it is a privilege. There are 1,000 other ways to evacuate.





I don't know. I just think that all available options should be open if possible, and that in an emergency like the Hurricanes that is not the time to be making a profit,

Then you really need to lean on governments and non-profits. Businesses aren't charities and are going to do what business are obligated to do (price accordingly to make sure they have supply to sell, account for risk and return on the investment of those stakeholders who have entrusted their money in a business), so it's not really fair to hold them up to the standard of charity.

I thought Florida had some hurricanes even before Trump?
Or you think government should also provide free gas to those driving out of hurricane path?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8548
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:10 am

Is nobody talking capacity here? The response in a market driven situation should see capacity rising when prices are rising. Are the number of seats before a disaster strikes a fixed quantity? Where are the added flights or upgauging of frames used? Where are the charter flights?
The point is that competition has been curtailed and capacity control leads to price gauging.
 
c933103
Posts: 3826
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:27 am

mjoelnir wrote:
Is nobody talking capacity here? The response in a market driven situation should see capacity rising when prices are rising. Are the number of seats before a disaster strikes a fixed quantity? Where are the added flights or upgauging of frames used? Where are the charter flights?
The point is that competition has been curtailed and capacity control leads to price gauging.

As someone from RM have spoken in previous replies, usually these situation escalate too quickly and leave little room for human to intervene, which I would assume there are also little room for additional flight or upgauges.
Although, this time the situation is a little bit difference and airlines have already started to manually intervene with price cap, addition frequency and larger equipmentaccoring to their own words.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10046
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:33 am

Perhaps just should confiscate a number of aircraft and just set up an air bridge for anyone to get out who wants too. Lost revenue / cost is something to worry about later.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
c933103
Posts: 3826
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:35 am

phxsanslcpdx wrote:
BlatantEcho's spot-on. Airlines face limited resources and all the internal US ones, at least, are for-profit. In addition to maximizing shareholder value (legally mandated), they also all contribute to various charitable causes. If you demand that airlines dedicate their charitable giving to evacuating in front of hurricanes, then you're demanding to take those resources away from the opera or saving the whales or providing life-saving medical treatment or gay pride parades or whatever else the airline's leaders would choose to support.

The really terrible news is that the airlines, like many other businesses, seem to be shifting to a PR-focused business model in which they cave to various outbursts of outrage. The only way to do this effectively, of course, is to raise prices overall so that when they lose margins or actually take a loss when catering to some outraged group's demands, it still protects their bottom line. So everyone has to pay more for everything so that businesses can soothe loudmouths who want to tell them what to do with their money.

As a public transportation service provider, while understandably they are for profit and should absed their decision on a profit-oiriented decision making profit, they at the same time are fulfilling a role that helps with the movement of people which mean they inevitably would have tied some form of social values into their company. It is the same reason why there are numerous regulations in employment, labour rights, enviroment and monopoly aspects that limits what a coporation can and cannot do.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8548
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:30 am

c933103 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Is nobody talking capacity here? The response in a market driven situation should see capacity rising when prices are rising. Are the number of seats before a disaster strikes a fixed quantity? Where are the added flights or upgauging of frames used? Where are the charter flights?
The point is that competition has been curtailed and capacity control leads to price gauging.

As someone from RM have spoken in previous replies, usually these situation escalate too quickly and leave little room for human to intervene, which I would assume there are also little room for additional flight or upgauges.
Although, this time the situation is a little bit difference and airlines have already started to manually intervene with price cap, addition frequency and larger equipmentaccoring to their own words.


Why should there by little room for additional flights or upgauging? That is just a lame excuse. It is not an unexpected disaster, the storm is several days on the way.
It just that capacity control at airlines in the USA is that ingrained, that the only response they can think off, is raising prices. In a free market capacity would go up too. Clear sign of a market without real competition.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2028
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:57 am

mjoelnir wrote:
c933103 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Is nobody talking capacity here? The response in a market driven situation should see capacity rising when prices are rising. Are the number of seats before a disaster strikes a fixed quantity? Where are the added flights or upgauging of frames used? Where are the charter flights?
The point is that competition has been curtailed and capacity control leads to price gauging.

As someone from RM have spoken in previous replies, usually these situation escalate too quickly and leave little room for human to intervene, which I would assume there are also little room for additional flight or upgauges.
Although, this time the situation is a little bit difference and airlines have already started to manually intervene with price cap, addition frequency and larger equipmentaccoring to their own words.


Why should there by little room for additional flights or upgauging? That is just a lame excuse. It is not an unexpected disaster, the storm is several days on the way.
It just that capacity control at airlines in the USA is that ingrained, that the only response they can think off, is raising prices. In a free market capacity would go up too. Clear sign of a market without real competition.

Miami MSA is 6 million people. US airlines collectively transport 2.5 million passengers a day.
Given that planes would go mostly empty one way, and making some assumptions about flight duration it is possible to airlift half of Miami population in about 5 days using ALL aircraft in US
That still leaves Orlando and Tampa behind. And that assumes there is enough fuel, runway capacity, crews etc.

I am pretty sure that if situation was a guaranteed death for anyone in FL, we'll see something along those lines. But situation is nowhere close to being THAT bad.
 
c933103
Posts: 3826
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:25 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
c933103 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Is nobody talking capacity here? The response in a market driven situation should see capacity rising when prices are rising. Are the number of seats before a disaster strikes a fixed quantity? Where are the added flights or upgauging of frames used? Where are the charter flights?
The point is that competition has been curtailed and capacity control leads to price gauging.

As someone from RM have spoken in previous replies, usually these situation escalate too quickly and leave little room for human to intervene, which I would assume there are also little room for additional flight or upgauges.
Although, this time the situation is a little bit difference and airlines have already started to manually intervene with price cap, addition frequency and larger equipmentaccoring to their own words.


Why should there by little room for additional flights or upgauging? That is just a lame excuse. It is not an unexpected disaster, the storm is several days on the way.
It just that capacity control at airlines in the USA is that ingrained, that the only response they can think off, is raising prices. In a free market capacity would go up too. Clear sign of a market without real competition.

By little room I mean the time needed. You can check the previous reply, because ordinarily hurricane landfall point is uncertain and will swing before they are really close, and thus people often start buying tickets until when it's very close to the point, and thus there aren't much time for airlines to react.
And capacity aren't created out of the blank. They need to reschedule other flights, or if they wish to upgauge are flight then they need to take downgauge other flights. You can charter aircrafts from elsewhere, but those are of limited availability, expensive, and not always available.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8548
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:39 pm

c933103 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
c933103 wrote:
As someone from RM have spoken in previous replies, usually these situation escalate too quickly and leave little room for human to intervene, which I would assume there are also little room for additional flight or upgauges.
Although, this time the situation is a little bit difference and airlines have already started to manually intervene with price cap, addition frequency and larger equipmentaccoring to their own words.


Why should there by little room for additional flights or upgauging? That is just a lame excuse. It is not an unexpected disaster, the storm is several days on the way.
It just that capacity control at airlines in the USA is that ingrained, that the only response they can think off, is raising prices. In a free market capacity would go up too. Clear sign of a market without real competition.

By little room I mean the time needed. You can check the previous reply, because ordinarily hurricane landfall point is uncertain and will swing before they are really close, and thus people often start buying tickets until when it's very close to the point, and thus there aren't much time for airlines to react.
And capacity aren't created out of the blank. They need to reschedule other flights, or if they wish to upgauge are flight then they need to take downgauge other flights. You can charter aircrafts from elsewhere, but those are of limited availability, expensive, and not always available.


I see that at least Delta seems to have upped capacity. Otherwise you keep providing mainly excuses. I am pretty sure bookings started to go up when the hurricane was announced, so we do not talk about next day or same day tickets only.
Nobody talks about evacuating 6,5 million people by air, South Florida is not an island and not everybody needs to go. That is again a nice excuse.

The argument here on a.net was that the normal reaction of an airline to a disaster should be upping the price, that can only happen in a controlled environment with little competition. Why can not the reaction be to seriously increase capacity to get market share? I would switch my business to another airline for if one airline is trying to make money of me in a disaster situation.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2028
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:05 pm

mjoelnir wrote:

I see that at least Delta seems to have upped capacity. Otherwise you keep providing mainly excuses. I am pretty sure bookings started to go up when the hurricane was announced, so we do not talk about next day or same day tickets only.
Nobody talks about evacuating 6,5 million people by air, South Florida is not an island and not everybody needs to go. That is again a nice excuse.

The argument here on a.net was that the normal reaction of an airline to a disaster should be upping the price, that can only happen in a controlled environment with little competition. Why can not the reaction be to seriously increase capacity to get market share? I would switch my business to another airline for if one airline is trying to make money of me in a disaster situation.

How much capacity can be added on a short notice given that industry publish schedules 10 months in advance and schedules crew 2 months in advance?
How many of those boarding aircraft are going on a lifeboat? You know "able body men stay back, women with kids step forward"? If you tell me that is happening right now in MIA, I would be the first to advocate massive airlift no matter what. But with the situation at hand, I do not expect airlines to call all hands up - they do what they can do without blowing up their core operations. And yes, pricing for supply is an interesting topic. Keeping regular fares - and costs - is probably impossible anyway with this type of heavy spike. You want airlines operate at a loss? I don't see $400 mentioned elsewhere as an unrealistic number...
 
c933103
Posts: 3826
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Airlines Handling Fares During Natural Disasters

Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:10 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
c933103 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Why should there by little room for additional flights or upgauging? That is just a lame excuse. It is not an unexpected disaster, the storm is several days on the way.
It just that capacity control at airlines in the USA is that ingrained, that the only response they can think off, is raising prices. In a free market capacity would go up too. Clear sign of a market without real competition.

By little room I mean the time needed. You can check the previous reply, because ordinarily hurricane landfall point is uncertain and will swing before they are really close, and thus people often start buying tickets until when it's very close to the point, and thus there aren't much time for airlines to react.
And capacity aren't created out of the blank. They need to reschedule other flights, or if they wish to upgauge are flight then they need to take downgauge other flights. You can charter aircrafts from elsewhere, but those are of limited availability, expensive, and not always available.


I see that at least Delta seems to have upped capacity. Otherwise you keep providing mainly excuses. I am pretty sure bookings started to go up when the hurricane was announced, so we do not talk about next day or same day tickets only.
Nobody talks about evacuating 6,5 million people by air, South Florida is not an island and not everybody needs to go. That is again a nice excuse.

The argument here on a.net was that the normal reaction of an airline to a disaster should be upping the price, that can only happen in a controlled environment with little competition. Why can not the reaction be to seriously increase capacity to get market share? I would switch my business to another airline for if one airline is trying to make money of me in a disaster situation.

As I have already said, the statement is for general purpose not particular to this storm. This storm have been warned with more times ahead, and residence of wider area have been warned to evacuate and no matter it swing east or west it will still affect same group of people at south FL. No one will plan an evacuation when path and strength are not certain yet, which is usually the case of storm until a day or two before it is going to actually hit, and is different from this storm.

Market share cannot be stolen just by an emergency response, unless that is really some life-or-death scenario. You might be able to transport the most people out of the area during the emergency time by renting capacity at whatever high rate and that would leave a good image on everyone who have flown on your airlines, but that's it. After the storm it would be back to business as usual. The good PR image will surely help if you are trying to win over the market, but it is as helpful as other PR methods. How many people will pay even US$30 more for a flight, on a regular basis like every month, just because the airlines helped their evacuation? Surely some will, but probably not much.
When no other countries around the world is going to militarily stop China and its subordinate fom abusing its citizens within its national boundary, it is unreasonable to expect those abuse can be countered with purely peaceful means.

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Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos