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jplatts
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Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:22 pm

There is an article published in the Dallas Business Journal today titled "Exclusive: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field" which can be found at https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2017/09/06/exclusive-southwest-airlines-seeking-to-expand.html, and Southwest is fighting to gain access to the 2 gates that Alaska Airlines and Virgin America are currently using at Dallas Love Field.

Is Southwest wanting to add nonstop service from DAL to Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Hartford, Louisville, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Newark, Tucson, and/or West Palm Beach? It appears that Southwest might be wanting to serve some of these destinations nonstop from DAL, and Southwest has previously considered adding nonstop service from DAL to MSP and EWR.

Is Southwest wanting to add additional nonstops from DAL to Seattle and Portland in order to better compete against AS?

Is Southwest wanting to add additional nonstop service from DAL to Boston, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, Raleigh/Durham, Tampa, and/or other destinations that are currently served nonstop from DAL?
Last edited by qf789 on Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: changed title for clarity
 
Scorpio
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Re: BREAKING: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:29 pm

Could you please remove the 'BREAKING' from the topic title? This really doesn't count as breaking news worthy of the tag...
 
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qf789
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Re: BREAKING: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:34 pm

Scorpio wrote:
Could you please remove the 'BREAKING' from the topic title? This really doesn't count as breaking news worthy of the tag...


Title has been updated
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enilria
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:38 pm

The thought of allowing any single airline to effectively control every gate at an airport should make everyone shudder. It's already too concentrated. WN would be arguing the opposite if we were talking about LGA or DCA.
 
airzona11
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:49 pm

enilria wrote:
The thought of allowing any single airline to effectively control every gate at an airport should make everyone shudder. It's already too concentrated. WN would be arguing the opposite if we were talking about LGA or DCA.


Let WN build more gates.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:51 pm

If other airlines want to come in..let them build more gates. Or let the city just build more gates. Yeah, I know, WA2.
 
airliner371
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:53 pm

enilria wrote:
The thought of allowing any single airline to effectively control every gate at an airport should make everyone shudder. It's already too concentrated. WN would be arguing the opposite if we were talking about LGA or DCA.

I don't think Southwest is expecting to get additional gates, I think their point is Alaska should have to basically re apply for the gates (since it was VX, not AS who got approved for 2 gates) so the city can determine what gate configuration is best for the city, and that would allow Delta an opportunity for one or both of those gates instead of unlawfully impeding on a city approved sub-lease Southwest owns.

I think that's the general idea of what Southwest is doing, they're not trying to necessarily get additional gates for themselves.

jplatts wrote:
Is Southwest wanting to add nonstop service from DAL to Buffalo, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Hartford, Louisville, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Newark, Tucson, and/or West Palm Beach? It appears that Southwest might be wanting to serve some of these destinations nonstop from DAL, and Southwest has previously considered adding nonstop service from DAL to MSP and EWR.

Is Southwest wanting to add additional nonstops from DAL to Seattle and Portland in order to better compete against AS?

Is Southwest wanting to add additional nonstop service from DAL to Boston, Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, Raleigh/Durham, Tampa, and/or other destinations that are currently served nonstop from DAL?

Please stop. These are questions for Southwest, not this site.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:16 pm

Here is a breakdown of typical gate usage at Dallas Love Field with the number of departures per day per gate:
Gate 1 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 2 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 3 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 4 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 5 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 6 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 7 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 8 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 9 (WN) - 12 departures per day
Gate 10 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 11 (VX/AS) - 9 departures per day
Gate 12 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 13 (VX/AS) - 9 departures per day
Gate 14 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 15 (WN/DL) - 13 departures per day (8 on WN and 5 on DL)
Gate 16 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 17 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 18 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 19 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 20 (WN) - 11 departures per day

Southwest appears to have room to add a few additional flights out of DAL without having to acquire access to the 2 gates currently used by Virgin America and Alaska Airlines at DAL.

Southwest actually does 126 departures per day out of only 10 gates out of Terminal 1 at LAX (which comes out to an average of 12.6 departures per day per gate at LAX), but Southwest does its LAX operation under constraints that it does not face at DAL, including construction associated with Terminal 1 renovations at LAX.

According to the Southwest Airlines city fact sheet for SJC (which can be found at https://www.swamedia.com/media_storage/city_fact_sheets/SJC.pdf), Southwest currently operates 76 departures per day out of only out of 7 gates at SJC (which comes out to an average of 10.9 departures per day per gate at LAX), and Southwest is going to be adding 15 additional nonstops per day out of SJC in 2018. Is Southwest going to be acquiring additional gates at SJC to add 15 additional flights out of SJC?

Is Southwest planning on squeezing in additional flights out of its existing gates at DAL like it is doing at LAX and SJC?
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:52 pm

IMO, WN has spread itself too thin at DAL in order to expand to so many cities in their system. It's not always an ideal place for connections when flying to/from cities with only one or two flights a day.
 
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SANFan
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:24 pm

jplatts wrote:
Is Southwest wanting to add additional nonstops from DAL to Seattle and Portland in order to better compete against AS?

I don't know about the PNW but starting next April, WN is adding a 4th daily DAL-SAN r/t! Coincidentally, AS's SAN-DAL service (a single r/t) starts next February... Another typical (expected) reactive move by one competitor to another's growth. If the traffic is there, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see WN add capacity to Luv Field from SEA, PDX, and other cities as well. They could find a way to squeeze out another flight or 2 from Luv if they really want to. (Even if it means cutting another market's service.)

bb
 
milemaster
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:24 pm

Will Southwest Airlines fly Southwest Airlines planes to Southwest Airlines Destinations Served by Southwest Airlines? Southwest Airlines.
 
evank516
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:14 pm

http://www.southwest.com/careers

Go apply for a job and then you can be in the know.
 
jimbo737
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:02 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
enilria wrote:
The thought of allowing any single airline to effectively control every gate at an airport should make everyone shudder. It's already too concentrated. WN would be arguing the opposite if we were talking about LGA or DCA.


And then there's Porter who absolutely dominate CYTZ, the downtown airport in, by far, Canada's largest city and aviation market, with 80% of the slots both now and of any new slots granted over at least the next 15 years.
 
evank516
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:08 pm

jimbo737 wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
enilria wrote:
The thought of allowing any single airline to effectively control every gate at an airport should make everyone shudder. It's already too concentrated. WN would be arguing the opposite if we were talking about LGA or DCA.


And then there's Porter who absolutely dominate CYTZ, the downtown airport in, by far, Canada's largest city and aviation market, with 80% of the slots both now and of any new slots granted over at least the next 15 years.

Different country, different rules though.
 
seat1a
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:17 pm

Can remote stands be used at DAL, as a way to alleviate the gate issue? The rumor around SEA is that busing passengers to remote stands may begin because of the gate situation; wondering if DAL could do this.

Thanks!
 
AirFiero
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:25 pm

jplatts wrote:

Southwest actually does 126 departures per day out of only 10 gates out of Terminal 1 at LAX (which comes out to an average of 12.6 departures per day per gate at LAX), but Southwest does its LAX operation under constraints that it does not face at DAL, including construction associated with Terminal 1 renovations at LAX.

According to the Southwest Airlines city fact sheet for SJC (which can be found at https://www.swamedia.com/media_storage/city_fact_sheets/SJC.pdf), Southwest currently operates 76 departures per day out of only out of 7 gates at SJC (which comes out to an average of 10.9 departures per day per gate at LAX), and Southwest is going to be adding 15 additional nonstops per day out of SJC in 2018. Is Southwest going to be acquiring additional gates at SJC to add 15 additional flights out of SJC?

Is Southwest planning on squeezing in additional flights out of its existing gates at DAL like it is doing at LAX and SJC?


Not intending to undermine you point, just an FYI, SJC is adding two gates at the southeast end of Terminal B.

But yes, you'd think they could up the gate utilization at DALbased on your numbers. Unless there is some operational difference based on the where these airports are, geographically.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:13 pm

seat1a wrote:
Can remote stands be used at DAL, as a way to alleviate the gate issue? The rumor around SEA is that busing passengers to remote stands may begin because of the gate situation; wondering if DAL could do this.

Thanks!
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blink182
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:21 pm

seat1a wrote:
Can remote stands be used at DAL, as a way to alleviate the gate issue? The rumor around SEA is that busing passengers to remote stands may begin because of the gate situation; wondering if DAL could do this.

Thanks!

IIRC, no, hence the point of contention. DAL is limited to 20 scheduled pax service stands in any form. There is plenty of space for expansion, so the airfield isn't a limiting factor. Similarly, there may be caps on aircraft capacity or type so that Delta, for example, can't schedule 763s and A330s on their five flights to maximize pax count and use air stairs in lieu of a jet bridge.
Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
 
ScottB
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:40 pm

blink182 wrote:
Similarly, there may be caps on aircraft capacity or type so that Delta, for example, can't schedule 763s and A330s on their five flights to maximize pax count and use air stairs in lieu of a jet bridge.


There are no statutory limitations on aircraft size or capacity. There are physical limitations in that the terminal was designed to accommodate primarily narrowbody (737/A320-sized) aircraft, although one or two of the gates at the corners of the concourse may be able to handle larger aircraft if need be.

AAvgeek744 wrote:
IMO, WN has spread itself too thin at DAL in order to expand to so many cities in their system. It's not always an ideal place for connections when flying to/from cities with only one or two flights a day.


WN has enough O&D demand at DAL to not be particularly worried about optimizing O&D traffic. Plus the key short-haul markets (i.e. cities like HOU, SAT, MAF, MSY, OKC, etc.) are served frequently enough to connect with most of the once-a-day flights.

TVNWZ wrote:
If other airlines want to come in..let them build more gates. Or let the city just build more gates. Yeah, I know, WA2.


Agreed 100%. The cap on gates at DAL should never have been put in place.
 
cjpark
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:10 pm

ScottB wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
If other airlines want to come in..let them build more gates. Or let the city just build more gates. Yeah, I know, WA2.


Agreed 100%. The cap on gates at DAL should never have been put in place.


The gate limit was insisted upon by the City of Dallas. The area around the airport cannot support the additional traffic to and from the airport additional gates and flights with large aircraft would generate. The number of gates currently allowed at DAL was based on a study the city commissioned to determine the affect of DAL without the Wright Amendment would have on the area around the airport. The original 30+ gate airport plan was based on airlines using aircraft that could meet the seat limitations in the original Wright Amendment for long distance flights outside the 5 state area.

Southwest sold its soul to stay at DAL and agreed to the limits in the compromise agreement. If Southwest wants to operate more flights in the DFW area all they have to do is move 10 miles west.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
MDSkyguy
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Re: BREAKING: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:59 pm

Scorpio wrote:
Could you please remove the 'BREAKING' from the topic title? This really doesn't count as breaking news worthy of the tag...

Is it really that "BIG" of a deal!?
 
alfa164
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:07 pm

cjpark wrote:
ScottB wrote:
TVNWZ wrote:
If other airlines want to come in..let them build more gates. Or let the city just build more gates. Yeah, I know, WA2.

Agreed 100%. The cap on gates at DAL should never have been put in place.

The gate limit was insisted upon by the City of Dallas. The area around the airport cannot support the additional traffic to and from the airport additional gates and flights with large aircraft would generate. The number of gates currently allowed at DAL was based on a study the city commissioned to determine the affect of DAL without the Wright Amendment would have on the area around the airport. The original 30+ gate airport plan was based on airlines using aircraft that could meet the seat limitations in the original Wright Amendment for long distance flights outside the 5 state area.

So say the NIMBY's in the area. In fact, Love Field operated - no problems - with nearly twice as many gates when it was home to Braniff, American, Delta, Continental... i.e., before the opening of DFW.

The gate limit was an artificial sop to those prima donnas who think other people shouldn't have the right to fly from there.
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727200
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:31 pm

Did you read any of the posts in this topic before you started banging on your keyboard? Especially the one 2 up that talks of the constraints due to traffic and road limitations or did that one just go over your head? I don't like sitting in any traffic that doesn't allow for productivity and waiting for traffic to flow certainly fits in that mode. Read the posts if you want to be part of the conversation so you don't waste others time.
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:37 pm

727200 wrote:
Did you read any of the posts in this topic before you started banging on your keyboard? Especially the one 2 up that talks of the constraints due to traffic and road limitations or did that one just go over your head? I don't like sitting in any traffic that doesn't allow for productivity and waiting for traffic to flow certainly fits in that mode. Read the posts if you want to be part of the conversation so you don't waste others time.


As someone who flies to/m DAL about 40 times a year, I'll call that what it is: B.S. Adding 25% more cars to the roads would be no problem. I know. I drive those roads. The gate limit went in at the insistence of the City of Ft. Worth, American Airlines, and DFW airport -- all of which were scared as hell that WN would be successful. That's the same fear that has been in place since WN's first flight in the 1970's

WN agreed in order to finally get WA repealed. Wait til 2024 when WN can fly to any area airport and not have to give up DAL space. I can see flights to McKinney which will really PO the WN haters.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:42 pm

727200 wrote:
Did you read any of the posts in this topic before you started banging on your keyboard? Especially the one 2 up that talks of the constraints due to traffic and road limitations or did that one just go over your head? I don't like sitting in any traffic that doesn't allow for productivity and waiting for traffic to flow certainly fits in that mode. Read the posts if you want to be part of the conversation so you don't waste others time.


Back when DAL was the main airport, there was much less development. The gazillion new highrise condos and other developments between DAL and downtown have changed that dynamic greatly. A lot of those folks have dollars that politicians wouldn't mind seeing.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:54 pm

It's time to lift all the remaining restrictions at DAL and allow them to build more gates.

Alternatively, WN can bite the bullet and move to DFW airport so they can operate wherever they want.
 
bob75013
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:01 am

ADrum23 wrote:
It's time to lift all the remaining restrictions at DAL and allow them to build more gates.

Alternatively, WN can bite the bullet and move to DFW airport so they can operate wherever they want.

Pulleassee ..

you do know that WN is the grantor of the $500 million in bonds used to buiid the new terminal ----don't you???

WN will wait until 2024 when it will shake up the local market by flying to other area airports without giving up DAL gates. I see McKinney -- and wouldn't service to Meacham shake up the pols as well as DFW airport and American airlines higher ups? FT Worth is a much bigger market than it was 25 years ago. I look forward to the day ...
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:04 am

ADrum23 wrote:
It's time to lift all the remaining restrictions at DAL and allow them to build more gates.

Alternatively, WN can bite the bullet and move to DFW airport so they can operate wherever they want.


WA2 is locked in to the early/mid 20's I believe. I'm not sure WN has a desire to use DFW given the monopoly at DAL. While I mentioned earlier lack of connections at DAL is not optimal, it's O&D base is large. If DAL add more gates, I would expect NK to waltz in. The Metroplex is big enough to have a full service international airport and an airport that caters to locals and price sensitive pax who don't want to drive to DFW. Then again, had you told me a few years ago WN would be in LGA, I would have laughed my ass off. They are full on competition to the Big 3, which is really the Big 4 with Southwest.
 
rbavfan
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:11 am

AirFiero wrote:
jplatts wrote:

Southwest actually does 126 departures per day out of only 10 gates out of Terminal 1 at LAX (which comes out to an average of 12.6 departures per day per gate at LAX), but Southwest does its LAX operation under constraints that it does not face at DAL, including construction associated with Terminal 1 renovations at LAX.

According to the Southwest Airlines city fact sheet for SJC (which can be found at https://www.swamedia.com/media_storage/city_fact_sheets/SJC.pdf), Southwest currently operates 76 departures per day out of only out of 7 gates at SJC (which comes out to an average of 10.9 departures per day per gate at LAX), and Southwest is going to be adding 15 additional nonstops per day out of SJC in 2018. Is Southwest going to be acquiring additional gates at SJC to add 15 additional flights out of SJC?

Is Southwest planning on squeezing in additional flights out of its existing gates at DAL like it is doing at LAX and SJC?


Not intending to undermine you point, just an FYI, SJC is adding two gates at the southeast end of Terminal B.

But yes, you'd think they could up the gate utilization at DALbased on your numbers. Unless there is some operational difference based on the where these airports are, geographically.



I would sat Southwest end of Terminal B. If they add them to the southeast end of the terminals they would have to reroute the roadways for traffic. Or have cars drive around & under the planes.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:13 am

AAvgeek744 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
It's time to lift all the remaining restrictions at DAL and allow them to build more gates.

Alternatively, WN can bite the bullet and move to DFW airport so they can operate wherever they want.


WA2 is locked in to the early/mid 20's I believe. I'm not sure WN has a desire to use DFW given the monopoly at DAL. While I mentioned earlier lack of connections at DAL is not optimal, it's O&D base is large. If DAL add more gates, I would expect NK to waltz in. The Metroplex is big enough to have a full service international airport and an airport that caters to locals and price sensitive pax who don't want to drive to DFW. Then again, had you told me a few years ago WN would be in LGA, I would have laughed my ass off. They are full on competition to the Big 3, which is really the Big 4 with Southwest.


The WA2 should be invalidated on antitrust grounds. It is outdated and anti-competitive. Southwest is no longer a niche LCC, it is a major US airline that has surpassed UA in total passengers flown. It's time they get the same treatment AA gets at DFW. If that means expanding DAL or moving to DFW (didn't they try to lure WN after DL closed their DFW hub in the mid-2000's?), WN deserves more gates, and more gates should be built for new competitors as well. After all, it's not good to have one airline controlling most, if not all of the traffic out of an airport.
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:25 am

ADrum23 wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
It's time to lift all the remaining restrictions at DAL and allow them to build more gates.

Alternatively, WN can bite the bullet and move to DFW airport so they can operate wherever they want.


WA2 is locked in to the early/mid 20's I believe. I'm not sure WN has a desire to use DFW given the monopoly at DAL. While I mentioned earlier lack of connections at DAL is not optimal, it's O&D base is large. If DAL add more gates, I would expect NK to waltz in. The Metroplex is big enough to have a full service international airport and an airport that caters to locals and price sensitive pax who don't want to drive to DFW. Then again, had you told me a few years ago WN would be in LGA, I would have laughed my ass off. They are full on competition to the Big 3, which is really the Big 4 with Southwest.


The WA2 should be invalidated on antitrust grounds. It is outdated and anti-competitive. Southwest is no longer a niche LCC, it is a major US airline that has surpassed UA in total passengers flown. It's time they get the same treatment AA gets at DFW. If that means expanding DAL or moving to DFW (didn't they try to lure WN after DL closed their DFW hub in the mid-2000's?), WN deserves more gates, and more gates should be built for new competitors as well. After all, it's not good to have one airline controlling most, if not all of the traffic out of an airport.


I don't disagree, but it seems there has been litigation over DAL ever since DFW opened. I just don't see any changes for awhile. I live in Dallas during the week and commute to BNA on weekends. I use WN on the city-to-city commutes. When I need to fly elsewhere during the week, my employers ships me out to DFW and AA. I don't think we will see another carrier at DFW using it as a hub. It's a focus city to some degree to NK, but they add and drop routes very easy. I suspect they will merge with F9 sooner or later, but I'm still not convinced they want a large operation at DFW. Hell, I want Braniff back and DFW like it was when I moved there in 1980.
 
jordanh
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:39 am

AAvgeek744 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Did you read any of the posts in this topic before you started banging on your keyboard? Especially the one 2 up that talks of the constraints due to traffic and road limitations or did that one just go over your head? I don't like sitting in any traffic that doesn't allow for productivity and waiting for traffic to flow certainly fits in that mode. Read the posts if you want to be part of the conversation so you don't waste others time.

Back when DAL was the main airport, there was much less development. The gazillion new highrise condos and other developments between DAL and downtown have changed that dynamic greatly. A lot of those folks have dollars that politicians wouldn't mind seeing.

I lived in Dallas in the late 60's and 70's, when Dallas Love Field was the only airport. The road to there was a two lane asphalt from downtown (Lemmon Avenue) and the other road.to get there from the freeway was also two lane (Mockingbird Lane).

Now when I go back I see both are six lanes, with plenty of room for traffic. There are more condos and more development between downtown and the airport, but that doesn't mean it isn't accessable. It only means there are more people who whine about the airport being there, even if it was there before they moved in.

I guess that is the American way: expect everyone else to sacrifice so you can have your way.
 
superjeff
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:41 am

The two gates that Virgin America (now Alaska) has are not Southwest's. They are subleased from American. Southwest has no claim on them. The problems at Love Field are related to the artificial restrictions on Love Field. The easiest way to solve the problems is to allow the addition of additional gates. Before WA2, they had 32 (?) gates; now they have 20. There's room for another 12 gates (probably more); let them build them and open them up to anybody who wants to fly there.

You can restrict traffic in other ways, like limiting international flights (which are not currently permitted at DAL), but the current situation is simply a device to protect Southwest from competition. Let Southwest operate at both DFW and DAL without losing gates at DAL if they operate some flights to DFW, and let Delta, American, and anybody else who wants to operate out of DAL.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:45 am

What I find fascinating is that WN is trying to drag AS into this fight.

AS is going after California, one of WN's core markets. I wonder how much dragging AS into this is retaliation for the battle that is starting in CA?

I'm also curious if AS considers adjusting by leaving VX up as a corporate shell selling tickets out of DAL on AS/QX/OO operated planes?
 
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par13del
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:02 am

WN is trying to get DL off its gates, the only way to free up gates at DAL for DL to use is to get the VS/AS gates thrown back in the pit for DL and co to fight over.
 
Okie
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:10 am

USAirKid wrote:
I'm also curious if AS considers adjusting by leaving VX up as a corporate shell selling tickets out of DAL on AS/QX/OO operated planes?

They do not have to. The lease automatically shifted to AS. The lease is subleased from AMR.
One of our AS contributors has continuously stated that AS is not leaving DAL period. The additional airframes required to keep the gates times came along with the AS acquisition of VX, no shell is required.

********

Even if WN decided to shift operations yesterday to DFW, WN would request I suspect at least 30+ gates. DFW does not have 30+ extra gates.
As a matter of fact DFW has been baffled for 5 years or more what the heck they are going to do to remodel terminal B and more time than that (8 or 9yrs) about construction of terminal F.
The pace that DFW operates I would not expect them to have a terminal G ready for WN until mid century if they decided to move yesterday.
I could be wrong but I would expect a lot of blowback from AMR every step of the way.


Okie
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1757
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:49 am

Okie wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
I'm also curious if AS considers adjusting by leaving VX up as a corporate shell selling tickets out of DAL on AS/QX/OO operated planes?

They do not have to. The lease automatically shifted to AS. The lease is subleased from AMR.
One of our AS contributors has continuously stated that AS is not leaving DAL period. The additional airframes required to keep the gates times came along with the AS acquisition of VX, no shell is required.

********

Even if WN decided to shift operations yesterday to DFW, WN would request I suspect at least 30+ gates. DFW does not have 30+ extra gates.
As a matter of fact DFW has been baffled for 5 years or more what the heck they are going to do to remodel terminal B and more time than that (8 or 9yrs) about construction of terminal F.
The pace that DFW operates I would not expect them to have a terminal G ready for WN until mid century if they decided to move yesterday.
I could be wrong but I would expect a lot of blowback from AMR every step of the way.


Okie


Isn't there something in the agreement that prohibits AA codeshare partners from operating at the airport?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
ibhalla
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:30 am

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:02 am

USAirKid wrote:
What I find fascinating is that WN is trying to drag AS into this fight.

AS is going after California, one of WN's core markets. I wonder how much dragging AS into this is retaliation for the battle that is starting in CA?

I'm also curious if AS considers adjusting by leaving VX up as a corporate shell selling tickets out of DAL on AS/QX/OO operated planes?


I believe that AS has already started OO flights to certain cities, including IAH.
Houstonian avgeek (is that a thing?) and frequent flyer. Qantas is my fav airline. (JetBlue is a close 2nd.)
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1552
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:22 am

rbavfan wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
jplatts wrote:

Southwest actually does 126 departures per day out of only 10 gates out of Terminal 1 at LAX (which comes out to an average of 12.6 departures per day per gate at LAX), but Southwest does its LAX operation under constraints that it does not face at DAL, including construction associated with Terminal 1 renovations at LAX.

According to the Southwest Airlines city fact sheet for SJC (which can be found at https://www.swamedia.com/media_storage/city_fact_sheets/SJC.pdf), Southwest currently operates 76 departures per day out of only out of 7 gates at SJC (which comes out to an average of 10.9 departures per day per gate at LAX), and Southwest is going to be adding 15 additional nonstops per day out of SJC in 2018. Is Southwest going to be acquiring additional gates at SJC to add 15 additional flights out of SJC?

Is Southwest planning on squeezing in additional flights out of its existing gates at DAL like it is doing at LAX and SJC?


Not intending to undermine you point, just an FYI, SJC is adding two gates at the southeast end of Terminal B.

But yes, you'd think they could up the gate utilization at DALbased on your numbers. Unless there is some operational difference based on the where these airports are, geographically.



I would sat Southwest end of Terminal B. If they add them to the southeast end of the terminals they would have to reroute the roadways for traffic. Or have cars drive around & under the planes.


You must not know California geography. The runways are 30/12 and the terminals are parallel to the runways, meaning that the end of terminal B is southeast of the rest of Terminal B.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:23 am

usflyguy wrote:

Isn't there something in the agreement that prohibits AA codeshare partners from operating at the airport?


AA can't put its code on the flights from DAL to an AS hub or a market that AA flies to from DFW. This is a result of the settlement with the DOJ that AS entered in to purchase VX. DFW & DAL are considered the same market for the purposes of the merger, and AS and AA cannot code share on flights from DAL unless AA doesn't fly to that city from DFW. I'd expect that there isn't a market that AS would find worthy of serving from DAL that AA doesn't already serve from DFW.
 
AAvgeek744
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:08 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:43 pm

jordanh wrote:
AAvgeek744 wrote:
727200 wrote:
Did you read any of the posts in this topic before you started banging on your keyboard? Especially the one 2 up that talks of the constraints due to traffic and road limitations or did that one just go over your head? I don't like sitting in any traffic that doesn't allow for productivity and waiting for traffic to flow certainly fits in that mode. Read the posts if you want to be part of the conversation so you don't waste others time.

Back when DAL was the main airport, there was much less development. The gazillion new highrise condos and other developments between DAL and downtown have changed that dynamic greatly. A lot of those folks have dollars that politicians wouldn't mind seeing.

I lived in Dallas in the late 60's and 70's, when Dallas Love Field was the only airport. The road to there was a two lane asphalt from downtown (Lemmon Avenue) and the other road.to get there from the freeway was also two lane (Mockingbird Lane).

Now when I go back I see both are six lanes, with plenty of room for traffic. There are more condos and more development between downtown and the airport, but that doesn't mean it isn't accessable. It only means there are more people who whine about the airport being there, even if it was there before they moved in.

I guess that is the American way: expect everyone else to sacrifice so you can have your way.


I may be wrong, but I'm not sure we are on the same page. You mention access to the airport. My comments were strictly about the residential development that will produce NIMBY's.
 
KICT
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:32 pm

If Southwest was seriously interested in "competition" in the Dallas market, they would fly out of other area airports. Instead, they hunker down at DAL as if they own the place.
People are saying. Believe me.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:49 pm

bob75013 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
It's time to lift all the remaining restrictions at DAL and allow them to build more gates.

Alternatively, WN can bite the bullet and move to DFW airport so they can operate wherever they want.

Pulleassee ..

you do know that WN is the grantor of the $500 million in bonds used to buiid the new terminal ----don't you???

WN will wait until 2024 when it will shake up the local market by flying to other area airports without giving up DAL gates. I see McKinney -- and wouldn't service to Meacham shake up the pols as well as DFW airport and American airlines higher ups? FT Worth is a much bigger market than it was 25 years ago. I look forward to the day ...

And that means what? If they Closed LUV Tomorrow? Other than the moving costs to DFW? Southwest would be no worse for the wear.
with all of this Hoopla? Might be better th CLOSE Love Field.
 
727200
Posts: 633
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Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:36 pm

i may be wrong, but I'm not sure we are on the same page. You mention access to the airport. My comments were strictly about the residential development that will produce NIMBY's.[/quote]


I apologize to you; I miss-read your post.

Long day of fighting with people, no excuse on my part.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:50 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
It's time to lift all the remaining restrictions at DAL and allow them to build more gates.

Alternatively, WN can bite the bullet and move to DFW airport so they can operate wherever they want.

Pulleassee ..

you do know that WN is the grantor of the $500 million in bonds used to buiid the new terminal ----don't you???

WN will wait until 2024 when it will shake up the local market by flying to other area airports without giving up DAL gates. I see McKinney -- and wouldn't service to Meacham shake up the pols as well as DFW airport and American airlines higher ups? FT Worth is a much bigger market than it was 25 years ago. I look forward to the day ...

And that means what? If they Closed LUV Tomorrow? Other than the moving costs to DFW? Southwest would be no worse for the wear.
with all of this Hoopla? Might be better th CLOSE Love Field.


I know WN isn't moving to DFW. All I was saying was if they really wanted to operate with no restrictions in North Texas, they should have thought more about moving to DFW after DL closed their hub there. I am a big advocate for removing the remaining Wright restrictions at DAL and allowing more gates to be built (as well as some international service).
 
StrandedAtMKG
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:05 am

One airline should not be allowed to control 18 of 20 gates at a major airport in a major city. This is why we have antitrust laws and the FTC. WN can effectively charge whatever they want for the flights they're running at DAL with no competition. What on earth are the regulators doing?
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:28 am

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
One airline should not be allowed to control 18 of 20 gates at a major airport in a major city. This is why we have antitrust laws and the FTC. WN can effectively charge whatever they want for the flights they're running at DAL with no competition. What on earth are the regulators doing?


What on earth were the regulators doing when they put all sorts of restrictions of DAL in the first place that caused this? There shouldn't be a gate restriction at DAL. If they fully opened up the airport and allowed for as many gates as physically possible, WN could expand to everywhere they want from DAL, while competitors could come in and start service.

But nope, gotta protect that AA monopoly at DFW.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 609
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:32 am

ADrum23 wrote:
StrandedAtMKG wrote:
One airline should not be allowed to control 18 of 20 gates at a major airport in a major city. This is why we have antitrust laws and the FTC. WN can effectively charge whatever they want for the flights they're running at DAL with no competition. What on earth are the regulators doing?


What on earth were the regulators doing when they put all sorts of restrictions of DAL in the first place that caused this? There shouldn't be a gate restriction at DAL. If they fully opened up the airport and allowed for as many gates as physically possible, WN could expand to everywhere they want from DAL, while competitors could come in and start service.

But nope, gotta protect that AA monopoly at DFW.


Exactly this^^^^ Well said!
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
HeeseokKoo
Posts: 823
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:54 pm

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:02 am

If the gate restriction will be there forever, the absence of DL and AS will add only like a couple of dozen flights for WN. Installing dual boarding bridge might work for reducing turnaround time and increase the number of flights substantially. Or at least use a rear stair for faster disembark. WN must be studying it unless explicitly excluded in the deal :)
 
incitatus
Posts: 3386
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

Re: Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:36 am

ADrum23 wrote:
What on earth were the regulators doing when they put all sorts of restrictions of DAL in the first place that caused this? There shouldn't be a gate restriction at DAL. If they fully opened up the airport and allowed for as many gates as physically possible, WN could expand to everywhere they want from DAL, while competitors could come in and start service.

But nope, gotta protect that AA monopoly at DFW.


Calling for more gates at DAL while Southwest tries to go from 95% monopoly to 100% monopoly with zero competitors is a diversion tactic. Meanwhile there are 20+ airlines serving DFW. In this context saying AA has a monopoly at DFW can't be taken seriously - it is an alternative fact.
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