Now, could anyone see KDAL-KISP being added as Southwest is looking to expand at KDAL and Dallas is on the top 10 destinations by KISP followers on Facebook.

Balloonchaser wrote:

Now, could anyone see KDAL-KISP being added as Southwest is looking to expand at KDAL and Dallas is on the top 10 destinations by KISP followers on Facebook.

If they get a decent amount of gate space at DAL, then possibly...

jplatts wrote:

Southwest would prefer for Delta to operate out of the gates currently used by Virgin America and Alaska Airlines instead of Gate 15 that is currently shared between Southwest Airlines and Delta Air Lines

And I'd prefer to be taller, but we can't always get what we want, now can we?

Seriously though, AS has plans for 10X turns per day, per gate; I'm unsure how WN believes DL could/should use either gate, especially when they're not WN's to begin with. It's like me telling my neighbor that since they don't have cars, I should be able to park mine in their driveway because I'm buying another car and don't have a place for it.

bob75013 wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

It's time to lift all the remaining restrictions at DAL and allow them to build more gates.

Alternatively, WN can bite the bullet and move to DFW airport so they can operate wherever they want.

Pulleassee ..

you do know that WN is the grantor of the $500 million in bonds used to buiid the new terminal ----don't you???

WN will wait until 2024 when it will shake up the local market by flying to other area airports without giving up DAL gates. I see McKinney -- and wouldn't service to Meacham shake up the pols as well as DFW airport and American airlines higher ups? FT Worth is a much bigger market than it was 25 years ago. I look forward to the day ...

Buildi a terminal at AFW and serve the North Fort Worth area. I'm kind if surprised Allegiant hasn't looked at Alliance.

There are a few SWA markets in the contiguous U.S. that currently do not have nonstop service out of Dallas Love Field and that are not served by Alaska, Frontier, jetBlue, Spirit, or Sun Country, and these markets include Corpus Christi, Flint (which will see discontinuation of SWA service after June 6, 2018), Greenville/Spartanburg, Manchester (NH), and Norfolk (VA).

Of the other SWA destinations in the contiguous U.S. that do not currently have nonstop service out of DAL:

• Alaska currently serves BOI, MSP, EWR, GEG, TUS, and IAD but does not have any nonstop service to any of these destinations from either DAL or DFW
• Frontier currently serves CLE, DSM, RSW, ISP, MKE, MSP, PVD, IAD, and PBI, but does not have any nonstop service to any of these destinations from DFW
• Frontier will be starting service out of BUF on December 6, 2017, but Frontier will not be serving DFW nonstop from BUF
• Frontier will be starting service out of BOI, JAX, SDF and GEG in 2018, but will not be serving any of these destinations nonstop from DFW
• Frontier currently operates DFW-CVG nonstop service seasonally on Sundays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays until 12/14/17
• Frontier will be operating DFW-CVG nonstop service seasonally on Sundays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays starting on 4/8/18
• jetBlue does serve ALB, BUF, CLE, RSW, EWR, ROC, PWM, PVD, RIC, IAD, and PBI, but does not have any nonstop service to any of these destinations from DFW
• Spirit does have nonstop service from DFW to MSP and seasonal nonstop service from DFW to CLE
• Spirit does have seasonal service out of PBI to ACY, BOS, and ORD between 11/9/17 and 4/11/18, but Spirit does not have any nonstop service out of DFW to PBI
• Spirit currently serves RSW, BDL, and EWR, but does not serve any of these destintaions nonstop from DFW
• Sun Country currently serves MSP nonstop from DFW
• Sun Country does serve RSW, but does not have any nonstop service from RSW to DFW
• Sun Country does serve PBI seasonally, but does not have any nonstop service from PBI to DFW
• Sun Country will be starting seasonal nonstop service out of TUS starting on December 21st, but Sun Country will not be serving DFW nonstop from TUS

Most of the SWA destinations that do not currently have nonstop service out of DAL are served by Alaska, Frontier, jetBlue, Spirit, and/or Sun Country, and any of these 5 competitors could (at least theoretically) add nonstop service from DAL or DFW to destinations that Southwest does not currently serve nonstop from DAL. Southwest does face significant competitive pressure from both Alaska and Spirit in the DFW market.

jplatts wrote:

Top 10 SWA domestic destinations in contiguous U.S. without nonstop service out of DAL by number of daily nonstops out of DFW: MSP (15), EWR (11), CVG (8), IAD (7), TUS (6), CRP (6), ICT (6), CLE (5), SDF (5), RIC (3), GRR (3)

Top 10 SWA domestic destinations in contiguous U.S. without nonstop service out of DAL by number of seats available per day out of DFW: MSP (1906), EWR (1322), TUS (960), IAD (908), CVG (801), CLE (620), ICT (520), RIC (460), CRP (456), SDF (444)

In all fairness, it takes two to tango. Not so much talking about DAL, but WN hasn't been able to expand destinations at MSP because of limited gate space. EWR isn't exactly an easy airport to break into as long as UA dominates that airport; same with IAD. DAL could add four gates, but that's no guarantee that WN would instantly add flights to MSP unless the folks in Minnesota expanded Terminal B to accommodate more WN destinations.

atypical wrote:

The city buried itself long ago by stating, in writing, that DL would be accommodated in the new terminal.

Back when the 5 party agreement was negotiated and the WARA was enacted, Delta only had nonstop service from DFW to ATL, CVG, LGA, SLC, and MCO. Did DL make the request to be accommodated in the new terminal at Dallas Love Field prior to the DL-NW merger and prior to Southwest starting service out of MSP, LGA, or CVG, or did DL make that initial accommodation request after the NW acquistion by Delta and/or after Southwest starting service out of MSP and LGA back in 2009? Was Delta planning on serving CVG, LGA, or SLC nonstop from DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment when it made its initial request to be accommodated in the new terminal at DAL, or was Delta only planning on serving its main ATL hub nonstop from DAL when it made its initial request to be accommodated in the new terminal at DAL?

jplatts wrote:

Was Delta planning on serving CVG, LGA, or SLC nonstop from DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment when it made its initial request to be accommodated in the new terminal at DAL, or was Delta only planning on serving its main ATL hub nonstop from DAL when it made its initial request to be accommodated in the new terminal at DAL?

Back in 2013 when AA was required to divest their gates at Love in order to merge with US, Delta applied for those gates. Delta proposed flights to DTW/LGA/LAX/MSP in addition to the existing flights to ATL

http://news.delta.com/delta-plans-expan ... love-field

And a big discussion here on A Net

Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans
viewtopic.php?t=564667

jplatts wrote:

Back when the 5 party agreement was negotiated and the WARA was enacted, Delta only had nonstop service from DFW to ATL, CVG, LGA, SLC, and MCO

DL has not flown DFW/MCO nonstop since the days of the DFW hub. When DL closed the hub in 2005, DL only flew to 3 destinations from DFW: ATL. CVG, and SLC. Later DL added JFK. With the NW merger, flights to MSP, DTW, and MEM came along. MEM was then dropped. LGA and LAX were subsequently added

deltacto wrote:

jplatts wrote:

Was Delta planning on serving CVG, LGA, or SLC nonstop from DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment when it made its initial request to be accommodated in the new terminal at DAL, or was Delta only planning on serving its main ATL hub nonstop from DAL when it made its initial request to be accommodated in the new terminal at DAL?

Back in 2013 when AA was required to divest their gates at Love in order to merge with US, Delta applied for those gates, Delta proposed flights to DTW/LGA/LAX/MSP in addition to the existing flights to ATL

http://news.delta.com/delta-plans-expan ... love-field

And a big discussion here on A Net

Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans
viewtopic.php?t=564667

While Delta is (at least in my opinion) entitled to permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service under Subsection (a) of Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act, under section 3(b) of Article I of the 5 party agreement, and under the FAA AIP Grant Assurances, Delta has added nonstop service from DFW-LAX and Delta has scrapped plans to serve DTW and MSP from DAL.

Does the City of Dallas need to accommodate any Delta service out of DAL beyond the existing Delta DAL-ATL nonstop service? Is Delta planning on adding DTW and MSP nonstop service from DAL, or is Delta simply seeking permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service?

jplatts wrote:

While Delta is (at least in my opinion) entitled to permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service under Subsection (a) of Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act, under section 3(b) of Article I of the 5 party agreement, and under the FAA AIP Grant Assurances, Delta has added nonstop service from DFW-LAX and Delta has scrapped plans to serve DTW and MSP from DAL.
Does the City of Dallas need to accommodate any Delta service out of DAL beyond the existing Delta DAL-ATL nonstop service? Is Delta planning on adding DTW and MSP nonstop service from DAL, or is Delta simply seeking permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service?

Have they actually indicated they "scrapped plans" to serve DTW and MSP from DAL, or have they simply been unable to do so with the lack of gate space they have there?

jordanh wrote:

jplatts wrote:

While Delta is (at least in my opinion) entitled to permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service under Subsection (a) of Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act, under section 3(b) of Article I of the 5 party agreement, and under the FAA AIP Grant Assurances, Delta has added nonstop service from DFW-LAX and Delta has scrapped plans to serve DTW and MSP from DAL.
Does the City of Dallas need to accommodate any Delta service out of DAL beyond the existing Delta DAL-ATL nonstop service? Is Delta planning on adding DTW and MSP nonstop service from DAL, or is Delta simply seeking permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service?

Have they actually indicated they "scrapped plans" to serve DTW and MSP from DAL, or have they simply been unable to do so with the lack of gate space they have there?

I am unsure if Delta has permanently scrapped plans to serve DTW and MSP nonstop from DAL, but Delta has not offered nonstop service for sale to DTW and MSP from DAL for over 2 years, and Delta has not publicly announced any plans to serve DTW and MSP nonstop from DAL for over 2 years.

Willing to bet DL would add DTW and MSP from DAL if they had the gate space.

evank516 wrote:

Willing to bet DL would add DTW and MSP from DAL if they had the gate space.

Just to fly a CR9 on it? No thanks.

SteveXC500 wrote:

evank516 wrote:

Willing to bet DL would add DTW and MSP from DAL if they had the gate space.

Just to fly a CR9 on it? No thanks.

I wouldn't use it either, but I'm sure they'd do it.

jplatts wrote:

deltacto wrote:

jplatts wrote:

Was Delta planning on serving CVG, LGA, or SLC nonstop from DAL after the repeal of the Wright Amendment when it made its initial request to be accommodated in the new terminal at DAL, or was Delta only planning on serving its main ATL hub nonstop from DAL when it made its initial request to be accommodated in the new terminal at DAL?

Back in 2013 when AA was required to divest their gates at Love in order to merge with US, Delta applied for those gates, Delta proposed flights to DTW/LGA/LAX/MSP in addition to the existing flights to ATL

http://news.delta.com/delta-plans-expan ... love-field

And a big discussion here on A Net

Delta Announces Love Field Expansion Plans
viewtopic.php?t=564667

While Delta is (at least in my opinion) entitled to permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service under Subsection (a) of Section 5 of the Wright Amendment Reform Act, under section 3(b) of Article I of the 5 party agreement, and under the FAA AIP Grant Assurances, Delta has added nonstop service from DFW-LAX and Delta has scrapped plans to serve DTW and MSP from DAL.

Does the City of Dallas need to accommodate any Delta service out of DAL beyond the existing Delta DAL-ATL nonstop service? Is Delta planning on adding DTW and MSP nonstop service from DAL, or is Delta simply seeking permanent accommodation of its existing DAL-ATL nonstop service?

I think the Feds want this answer too. AIP Assurances are very broad and can end up good or bad. Good for airports that have specific need requirements to be added. Bad because there is no template they the can implement. Smaller airports may not have enough resources to create the documents, rules, and processes the FAA requires.

Is Southwest even considering serving Louisville nonstop from DAL? Delta used to have nonstop service from DFW to SDF 14 years ago, but Delta had discontinued DFW-SDF nonstop service in 2004. AA is the only airline that has nonstop service to SDF from DFW, and SDF has never had nonstop service from Dallas on any airline other than AA since Delta discontinued DFW-SDF nonstop service. The only options to SDF from DFW or DAL other than the AA DFW-SDF nonstop service all involve out-of-the-way connections.

It appears to me that DAL-SDF nonstop service might possibly be viable since Delta has served SDF nonstop from DFW in the past, since there are limited options for travel between Dallas and SDF, and since there is limited competition on DFW-SDF nonstop service, even though the DOT Domestic Consumer Airfare Report for Q2 2017 shows that there is an average of 33 passengers per day that travel between SDF and DAL. On the other hand, Delta was operating the SDF-DFW nonstop route at a time when Wright Amendment restrictions were still in effect at DAL, when Delta still had a hub at DFW, when there was no LCC service out of CVG, and when fares out of CVG were much higher.

Things have significantly changed since Delta had operated DAL-SDF nonstop service, including Delta eliminating its DFW hub, the repeal of the Wright Amendment, Frontier adding DFW-CVG nonstop service, increasing demand for CVG to Dallas nonstop service, significantly lower fares on DFW-CVG nonstop flights, and Southwest starting service out of CVG, and I am unsure if Southwest adding DAL-SDF nonstop service is still viable.

KICT wrote:

If Southwest was seriously interested in "competition" in the Dallas market, they would fly out of other area airports. Instead, they hunker down at DAL as if they own the place.

The present Love Field aggreement prohibits commercial service from any other airports except DAL and DFW.

KICT wrote:

If Southwest was seriously interested in "competition" in the Dallas market, they would fly out of other area airports. Instead, they hunker down at DAL as if they own the place.

Ding, you are now free to fly from any airport in the region if you give up an equal number of gates at DAL.

If Southwest was seriously interested in competition they would have moved to DFW years ago.

freakyrat wrote:

KICT wrote:

If Southwest was seriously interested in "competition" in the Dallas market, they would fly out of other area airports. Instead, they hunker down at DAL as if they own the place.

The present Love Field aggreement prohibits commercial service from any other airports except DAL and DFW.

The 5-party agreement (which can be found at http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/dal_ResolveWrightAmendment.pdf and http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/pdf/Wright_Amend_Agreement061506.pdf) only restricted commercial service in the DFW area to DFW Airport and Dallas Love Field during the 8-year period (between the time that the 5-party agreement was signed and the repeal of the Wright Amendment on October 13, 2014), and the provision of the 5-party agreement restricting commercial air service in the DFW area to DAL and DFW is no longer in effect.

Is Southwest even looking at bringing back DAL-MKE nonstop service at some point? AA will be the only airline to serve MKE nonstop from DFW after Southwest discontinues DAL-MKE nonstop service on March 7th. MKE will also be one of the top destinations from Dallas by O&D demand that will have nonstop service only on AA after Southwest discontinues DAL-MKE nonstop service on March 7th.

Will Southwest be announcing nonstop service from DAL to TUS in the near future? The BTS statistics for TUS is showing over 280,000 passengers per year who travel between TUS and DFW, but this figure includes the number of passengers who are connecting through DFW to other destinations and not just those traveling solely between TUS and DFW. On the other hand, the DOT Domestic Airline Consumer Airfare Report for Q2 2017 is only showing an average of 228 passengers per day who travel between TUS and DFW/DAL, and this figure includes those passengers who travel between TUS and DFW/DAL on connecting flights. It appears to me that a lot of the demand for the AA DFW-TUS nonstop flights is that of passengers connecting to other destinations through AA's DFW hub and not simply passengers traveling solely between TUS and DFW, and Southwest does have some of the connecting demand from TUS to destinations east of TUS covered with its existing TUS-DEN and TUS-MDW nonstop flights. Southwest would be able to connect passengers to destinations further east from TUS through DAL if it adds DAL-TUS nonstop service, and the demand might be there for DAL-TUS nonstop service with DFW being the #1 destination by overall demand from TUS and with the lack of competition on DFW-TUS nonstop service.

Louisville, KY is the largest city proper in the United States that has never had any nonstop service to DAL on Southwest, and AA is currently the only airline to have nonstop service to SDF from Dallas. There used to be competition on DFW-SDF nonstop service when Delta used to serve SDF nonstop from DFW in the days of the Delta DFW hub, but none of AA's competitors have served SDF nonstop from DFW or DAL since then. Is Southwest even considering serving DAL nonstop from SDF, and will Southwest ever serve DAL nonstop from SDF? There used to be a lot of Cincinnati-area passengers who flew out of SDF along with DFW-area passengers who flew into SDF and drove from SDF to the Cincinnati area back when fares out of CVG were high, but that had changed with Frontier adding DFW-CVG nonstop service and with AA and Delta lowering their fares on DFW-CVG nonstop flights. In addition, Southwest had started service out of CVG 7 months ago, and there is also significantly greater O&D demand to CVG from DFW/DAL than there is to SDF from DFW/DAL.

CVG is the #3 destination by overall demand from DFW/DAL currently without nonstop service from DAL after MSP and TUS, and there is currently more O&D demand to CVG from DFW/DAL than there is to some of the other destinations currently served nonstop from DAL, including SJC, SMF, MEM, and OMA. While CVG does not currently have the lack of competition issues that SDF and TUS have with AA, DL, and F9 all serving CVG nonstop from DFW and with Southwest being able to connect passengers from DAL to CVG through MDW, there is leakage to Delta and Frontier, both of which serve CVG nonstop from DFW, with Southwest not serving CVG nonstop from DAL. The demand would likely be there for Southwest to serve CVG nonstop from DAL if Frontier discontinues CVG-DFW nonstop service after Fall 2018. Southwest would also be able to connect passengers to HOU, AUS, SAT, OKC, LIT, ABQ, LAS, LAX, and SAN from CVG through DAL if Southwest adds DAL-CVG nonstop service, and the same would apply to SDF if Southwest adds DAL-SDF nonstop service.

jimbo737 wrote:

[threeid][/threeid]

enilria wrote:

The thought of allowing any single airline to effectively control every gate at an airport should make everyone shudder. It's already too concentrated. WN would be arguing the opposite if we were talking about LGA or DCA.

And then there's Porter who absolutely dominate CYTZ, the downtown airport in, by far, Canada's largest city and aviation market, with 80% of the slots both now and of any new slots granted over at least the next 15 years.

Also G4 at PIE. They have 98% of all flights in and out of PIE. WG flies seasonally from YYZ a few times a week during terrorist er i mean tourist season, and SY runs one flight a day to GPT, otherthan that it is all G4

jplatts wrote:

Is Southwest even looking at bringing back DAL-MKE nonstop service at some point? AA will be the only airline to serve MKE nonstop from DFW after Southwest discontinues DAL-MKE nonstop service on March 7th. MKE will also be one of the top destinations from Dallas by O&D demand that will have nonstop service only on AA after Southwest discontinues DAL-MKE nonstop service on March 7th.

Will Southwest be announcing nonstop service from DAL to TUS in the near future? The BTS statistics for TUS is showing over 280,000 passengers per year who travel between TUS and DFW, but this figure includes the number of passengers who are connecting through DFW to other destinations and not just those traveling solely between TUS and DFW. On the other hand, the DOT Domestic Airline Consumer Airfare Report for Q2 2017 is only showing an average of 228 passengers per day who travel between TUS and DFW/DAL, and this figure includes those passengers who travel between TUS and DFW/DAL on connecting flights. It appears to me that a lot of the demand for the AA DFW-TUS nonstop flights is that of passengers connecting to other destinations through AA's DFW hub and not simply passengers traveling solely between TUS and DFW, and Southwest does have some of the connecting demand from TUS to destinations east of TUS covered with its existing TUS-DEN and TUS-MDW nonstop flights. Southwest would be able to connect passengers to destinations further east from TUS through DAL if it adds DAL-TUS nonstop service, and the demand might be there for DAL-TUS nonstop service with DFW being the #1 destination by overall demand from TUS and with the lack of competition on DFW-TUS nonstop service.

Louisville, KY is the largest city proper in the United States that has never had any nonstop service to DAL on Southwest, and AA is currently the only airline to have nonstop service to SDF from Dallas. There used to be competition on DFW-SDF nonstop service when Delta used to serve SDF nonstop from DFW in the days of the Delta DFW hub, but none of AA's competitors have served SDF nonstop from DFW or DAL since then. Is Southwest even considering serving DAL nonstop from SDF, and will Southwest ever serve DAL nonstop from SDF? There used to be a lot of Cincinnati-area passengers who flew out of SDF along with DFW-area passengers who flew into SDF and drove from SDF to the Cincinnati area back when fares out of CVG were high, but that had changed with Frontier adding DFW-CVG nonstop service and with AA and Delta lowering their fares on DFW-CVG nonstop flights. In addition, Southwest had started service out of CVG 7 months ago, and there is also significantly greater O&D demand to CVG from DFW/DAL than there is to SDF from DFW/DAL.

CVG is the #3 destination by overall demand from DFW/DAL currently without nonstop service from DAL after MSP and TUS, and there is currently more O&D demand to CVG from DFW/DAL than there is to some of the other destinations currently served nonstop from DAL, including SJC, SMF, MEM, and OMA. While CVG does not currently have the lack of competition issues that SDF and TUS have with AA, DL, and F9 all serving CVG nonstop from DFW and with Southwest being able to connect passengers from DAL to CVG through MDW, there is leakage to Delta and Frontier, both of which serve CVG nonstop from DFW, with Southwest not serving CVG nonstop from DAL. The demand would likely be there for Southwest to serve CVG nonstop from DAL if Frontier discontinues CVG-DFW nonstop service after Fall 2018. Southwest would also be able to connect passengers to HOU, AUS, SAT, OKC, LIT, ABQ, LAS, LAX, and SAN from CVG through DAL if Southwest adds DAL-CVG nonstop service, and the same would apply to SDF if Southwest adds DAL-SDF nonstop service.

Here we go again.

Haven't these "questions" (if you can call them as such) already been asked? Is there anything particular that you think has changed?

From one month and a mere 4 replies ago:

jplatts wrote:

Is Southwest even considering serving Louisville nonstop from DAL? Delta used to have nonstop service from DFW to SDF 14 years ago, but Delta had discontinued DFW-SDF nonstop service in 2004. AA is the only airline that has nonstop service to SDF from DFW, and SDF has never had nonstop service from Dallas on any airline other than AA since Delta discontinued DFW-SDF nonstop service. The only options to SDF from DFW or DAL other than the AA DFW-SDF nonstop service all involve out-of-the-way connections.

It appears to me that DAL-SDF nonstop service might possibly be viable since Delta has served SDF nonstop from DFW in the past, since there are limited options for travel between Dallas and SDF, and since there is limited competition on DFW-SDF nonstop service, even though the DOT Domestic Consumer Airfare Report for Q2 2017 shows that there is an average of 33 passengers per day that travel between SDF and DAL. On the other hand, Delta was operating the SDF-DFW nonstop route at a time when Wright Amendment restrictions were still in effect at DAL, when Delta still had a hub at DFW, when there was no LCC service out of CVG, and when fares out of CVG were much higher.

Things have significantly changed since Delta had operated DAL-SDF nonstop service, including Delta eliminating its DFW hub, the repeal of the Wright Amendment, Frontier adding DFW-CVG nonstop service, increasing demand for CVG to Dallas nonstop service, significantly lower fares on DFW-CVG nonstop flights, and Southwest starting service out of CVG, and I am unsure if Southwest adding DAL-SDF nonstop service is still viable.

jplatts wrote:

Is Southwest even looking at bringing back DAL ...(insert airport name here)

WN is limited to 18 gates and about 180 flights a day at DAL. Until that changes, don't expect WN to perform very many changes to what's going on at Love Field. With a 180 flight/day limit, it can't fly to everywhere it wants to fly.

Come about 2022, I would hope that WN would proclaim it's intent to fly flight out of Tarrant and Collin counties starting n 2024. That might open up some gate space at Love Field - or maybe it would " set love free" with more gates being built.

jetero wrote:

Haven't these "questions" (if you can call them as such) already been asked? Is there anything particular that you think has changed?

Southwest had announced the discontinuation of DAL-MKE nonstop service and the addition of HOU-MKE nonstop service back on July 27, 2017, and in addition to that, Southwest will be extending its schedule again on February 8th.

Back on November 2, 2017, Southwest had also announced seasonal Saturday-only nonstop service from DAL to BOI starting on June 2nd and Sunday-only nonstop service from DAL to MSP starting on June 3rd.

AAvgeek744 wrote:

IMO, WN has spread itself too thin at DAL in order to expand to so many cities in their system. It's not always an ideal place for connections when flying to/from cities with only one or two flights a day.

Connections are not the big thing at DAL. It's a huge O&D market. So they can spread thin as connections are not needed to fill as many planes.

jimbo737 wrote:

[threeid][/threeid]

enilria wrote:

The thought of allowing any single airline to effectively control every gate at an airport should make everyone shudder. It's already too concentrated. WN would be arguing the opposite if we were talking about LGA or DCA.

And then there's Porter who absolutely dominate CYTZ, the downtown airport in, by far, Canada's largest city and aviation market, with 80% of the slots both now and of any new slots granted over at least the next 15 years.

Thats because Air Canada does not want to add prop only service to a city that they already carry majority of the passengers to. You can only fly Q400 & ATR's there. Other airlines can serve there, but have chosen not to bother.

jplatts wrote:

Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field"

I have nothing against Southwest Airlines. I have flown Southwest but I find this goal of expanding dominance laughable. They currently have dominance with or without any additional gates. Should Southwest have 100% of the gates at DAL? Doesn't the WRONG amendment as it was finally modified dictate that no additional gates be constructed and that some gates were torn down to make DAL comply with the new settlement. Don't get me wrong I think the whole idea of restrictions on DAL as dictated by the modified WRONG amendment settlement is totally BS. What say you..........

KarlB737 wrote:

I have nothing against Southwest Airlines. I have flown Southwest but I find this goal of expanding dominance laughable. They currently have dominance with or without any additional gates. Should Southwest have 100% of the gates at DAL? Doesn't the WRONG amendment as it was finally modified dictate that no additional gates be constructed and that some gates were torn down to make DAL comply with the new settlement. Don't get me wrong I think the whole idea of restrictions on DAL as dictated by the modified WRONG amendment settlement is totally BS. What say you..........

I say that Wright/Wrong is the biggest piece of anti-competitive legal nonsense in American aviation history. The days when DFW needed "protection" are LONG past. Build the hell out of DAL and let the chips fall where they may. Hell even AA may get back into DAL with service to their other hubs.

KarlB737 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

Southwest Airlines seeking to expand dominance at Dallas Love Field

I have nothing against Southwest Airlines. I have flown Southwest but I find this goal of expanding dominance laughable. They currently have dominance with or without any additional gates. Should Southwest have 100% of the gates at DAL? Doesn't the WRONG amendment as it was finally modified dictate that no additional gates be constructed and that some gates were torn down to make DAL comply with the new settlement. Don't get me wrong I think the whole idea of restrictions on DAL as dictated by the modified WRONG amendment settlement is totally BS. What say you..........

There are a few destinations not currently served nonstop from DAL that SWA's competitors will not serve nonstop from DAL, that competitors other than AA will not serve nonstop from DFW, and that Southwest could serve nonstop from DAL if it had the room to do so, including SDF, TUS, ORF, and BDL.

Southwest already has daily nonstop service from DAL to the 37 largest SWA stations other than DAL, and Southwest will continue to serve 36 of these 37 stations nonstop from DAL after the discontinuation of DAL-MKE nonstop service on March 8th.

I agree that Southwest should not have control over 100% of the gates at DAL, and the City of Dallas and AA should make an offer to Allegiant Air to sublease the gates currently in use by Virgin America and Alaska Airlines at DAL to Allegiant Air if Alaska Airlines decides to pull out of DAL and move all of its DFW-area flights over to DFW Airport. If Allegiant does decide to start service out of DAL, Allegiant could serve BZN, CVG, FLL, VPS, IND, JAX, LAS, MTJ, MYR, MSY, SFB, AZA, PGD, PIE, SRQ, and SAV nonstop from DAL.

Spirit's operation at DFW is too large to be accommodated at only DAL, with 35 nonstop flights from DFW during the peak summer travel season and with nonstop international flights from DFW to CUN and SJD, whereas Frontier and jetBlue will not do enough flights to fully utilize 2 gates at DAL if either of these two carriers decide to move their flights out of DAL.

Sun Country also operates nonstop international flights from DFW to CUN, CZM, PVR, and PUJ in addition to nonstop service to its MSP home base from DFW, and Sun Country will not move to DAL with Sun Country operating nonstop international flights out of DFW.

Southwest actually has more market share at MDW (which is located in the City of Chicago along with ORD) than it does at DAL (with 95.66% market share at MDW and with 91.90% market share at DAL), and MDW is much bigger than DAL is with 265 daily departures during the peak travel season at MDW vs 180 daily departures during the peak travel season at DAL. In addition, Southwest used to have more market share at ISP (which is located on Long Island in the New York City metropolitan area) than it currently does at DAL, with 93.69% market share at ISP in September 2017 vs 91.90% market share at DAL in September 2017, and Southwest also has more market share at HOU (which is located in Greater Houston) than it does at DAL, with 92.84% market share at HOU in September 2017 vs 91.90% market share at DAL in September 2017.

rbavfan wrote:

jimbo737 wrote:

[threeid][/threeid]

enilria wrote:

. Other airlines can serve there, but have chosen not to bother.

That's what you could have said about Love field at any time between 1978 and 2013 ...

OzarkD9S wrote:

KarlB737 wrote:

I have nothing against Southwest Airlines. I have flown Southwest but I find this goal of expanding dominance laughable. They currently have dominance with or without any additional gates. Should Southwest have 100% of the gates at DAL? Doesn't the WRONG amendment as it was finally modified dictate that no additional gates be constructed and that some gates were torn down to make DAL comply with the new settlement. Don't get me wrong I think the whole idea of restrictions on DAL as dictated by the modified WRONG amendment settlement is totally BS. What say you..........

I say that Wright/Wrong is the biggest piece of anti-competitive legal nonsense in American aviation history. The days when DFW needed "protection" are LONG past. Build the hell out of DAL and let the chips fall where they may. Hell even AA may get back into DAL with service to their other hubs.

I actually agree with your point, and there are at least 9 additional destinations not currently served nonstop from DAL that Southwest could serve from DAL if it had the room to do so, including CVG, CLE, CRP, BDL, SDF, EWR, ORF, TUS, and IAD, plus Southwest could do daily nonstop service to JAX and MSP from DAL if it had more room at DAL.

AA is much bigger at DFW than Southwest is at DAL, and in order for Southwest's DAL to exceed the size of AA's DFW operation, Dallas Love Field would have to be expanded to at least 43 gates and Southwest would have to do at least 400 nonstop domestic flights a day in each direction out of DAL, but both of these things will never happen, even if the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act were ever changed in order to allow expansion of DAL beyond the current 20-gate limit.

I agree that DFW International Airport no longer needs the "protection" that it needed in the past, and there will continue to be significant demand for flights out of DFW International Airport, even if the 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act were changed to allow expansion of Dallas Love Field beyond 20 gates and even if DAL is expanded beyond its existing 20 gates, because DFW International Airport has nonstop service to destinations not served by Southwest Airlines, because DFW International Airport is much closer to the City of Fort Worth than Dallas Love Field is, because there is a frequent flyer base in the DFW Metroplex that is loyal to AA, and because there are over 2 million residents in the DFW Metroplex who live closer to DFW International Airport than to Dallas Love Field.

The restrictions of the settlement agreement that required AA to give up its 2 gates at Dallas Love Field are in effect until April 25, 2024, but AA could regain access to its DAL gates after April 25, 2024. Does AA have any plans to start service out of DAL after April 25, 2024? Will Alaska Airlines remain at DAL in 2024, or will Alaska Airlines pull out of DAL prior to 2024?

The 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 should both be amended to allow expansion of Dallas Love Field beyond 20 gates and any expansion of Dallas Love Field beyond 20 gates should be about accommodating more non-Southwest service out of DAL, including by AA, DL, and AS, and not solely about further expansion of Southwest's DAL operation.

bob75013 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

Is Southwest even looking at bringing back DAL ...(insert airport name here)

WN is limited to 18 gates and about 180 flights a day at DAL. Until that changes, don't expect WN to perform very many changes to what's going on at Love Field. With a 180 flight/day limit, it can't fly to everywhere it wants to fly.

Come about 2022, I would hope that WN would proclaim it's intent to fly flight out of Tarrant and Collin counties starting n 2024. That might open up some gate space at Love Field - or maybe it would " set love free" with more gates being built.

Good point, even though Southwest has managed to squeeze in more flights per gate per day in Terminal 1 at LAX than it does out of most of its gates at DAL. In addition, Southwest will be doing 68 flights a day out of AUS in Summer 2018, and Southwest currently does 63 flights a day out of only 6 gates at AUS. Southwest will also be doing 91 flights a day out of SJC starting on April 8th even though it only currently operates out of 7 gates at SJC.

If Southwest has room to do 11 or 12 flights per day per gate at LAX, AUS, and SJC, Southwest might even have enough room to do 176 flights a day out of the 16 gates at DAL that are leased to Southwest (and there have even been times when Southwest has done 12 flights per gate per day out of some of these gates at DAL), and there is enough room to accommodate 180 daily Southwest departures out of DAL and permanently accommodate Delta at DAL. Southwest is probably wanting to keep DAL at 180 flights per day since it has to share at least 1 gate with Delta at DAL and since the possibility of having to permanently accommodate Delta at DAL is still there with a ongoing lawsuit regarding Gate 15 at DAL.

There were 13,834,000 passengers per year who travel to, through, or from DAL on Southwest Airlines between October 2016 and September 2017 according to BTS statistics, and the average load factor for Southwest Airlines out of DAL is 82.71% between October 2016 and September 2017 according to BTS statistics. There is a lot of demand for Southwest flights out of DAL, and Southwest can add capacity at DAL by using its 737-800 and 737 MAX 8 planes on more of its flights out of DAL. In addition, Southwest has also been gradually adding new domestic routes out of HOU, AUS, and SAT, and the addition of new domestic routes out of HOU, AUS, and SAT by Southwest have reduced the amount of connecting traffic that has to connect through DAL.

Southwest only currently does around 140 nonstops in each direction out of DAL on Saturdays, and Southwest actually does have room to do more Saturday-only nonstop flights out of DAL. Even though PBI did back Wright Amendment repeal efforts, PBI has never had any nonstop service to DAL on Southwest. However, Southwest could add Saturday-only nonstop service to PBI from DAL, and Southwest does have enough room at DAL to do Saturday-only nonstop service to PBI from DAL.

I agree that Southwest could go to more than just DAL in the DFW Metroplex, and while Southwest can still expand at DAL by using more 737-800 and 737 MAX 8 planes on flights out of DAL and by reducing the amount of connecting traffic that has to go through DAL, there will be a point where the demand for Southwest flights in the DFW Metroplex will exceed the capacity available on the Southwest flights out of DAL, and Southwest will need to serve more than just DAL in the DFW Metroplex.

jplatts wrote:

Here is a breakdown of typical gate usage at Dallas Love Field with the number of departures per day per gate:
Gate 1 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 2 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 3 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 4 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 5 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 6 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 7 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 8 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 9 (WN) - 12 departures per day
Gate 10 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 11 (VX/AS) - 9 departures per day
Gate 12 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 13 (VX/AS) - 9 departures per day
Gate 14 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 15 (WN/DL) - 13 departures per day (8 on WN and 5 on DL)
Gate 16 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 17 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 18 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 19 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 20 (WN) - 11 departures per day

Not an expert on WN or DAL; but doesn't the average gate utilisation shown here seem comparatively extremely poor ? Most of these gates barely have one WN departure an hour on average. I thought WN were world leaders in quick-turnarounds ?

Are there reasons for this ?

SelseyBill wrote:

jplatts wrote:

Here is a breakdown of typical gate usage at Dallas Love Field with the number of departures per day per gate:
Gate 1 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 2 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 3 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 4 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 5 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 6 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 7 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 8 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 9 (WN) - 12 departures per day
Gate 10 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 11 (VX/AS) - 9 departures per day
Gate 12 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 13 (VX/AS) - 9 departures per day
Gate 14 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 15 (WN/DL) - 13 departures per day (8 on WN and 5 on DL)
Gate 16 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 17 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 18 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 19 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 20 (WN) - 11 departures per day

Not an expert on WN or DAL; but doesn't the average gate utilisation shown here seem comparatively extremely poor ? Most of these gates barely have one WN departure an hour on average. I thought WN were world leaders in quick-turnarounds ?

Are there reasons for this ?

I believe this is because WN has more -800 series aircraft scheduled at DAL than before, which requires 45-55 minutes to turn. -700 aircraft can be turned in 30-40 minutes.

airplaneboy wrote:

SelseyBill wrote:

jplatts wrote:

Here is a breakdown of typical gate usage at Dallas Love Field with the number of departures per day per gate:
Gate 1 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 2 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 3 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 4 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 5 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 6 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 7 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 8 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 9 (WN) - 12 departures per day
Gate 10 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 11 (VX/AS) - 9 departures per day
Gate 12 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 13 (VX/AS) - 9 departures per day
Gate 14 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 15 (WN/DL) - 13 departures per day (8 on WN and 5 on DL)
Gate 16 (WN) - 9 departures per day
Gate 17 (WN) - 10 departures per day
Gate 18 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 19 (WN) - 11 departures per day
Gate 20 (WN) - 11 departures per day

Not an expert on WN or DAL; but doesn't the average gate utilisation shown here seem comparatively extremely poor ? Most of these gates barely have one WN departure an hour on average. I thought WN were world leaders in quick-turnarounds ?

Are there reasons for this ?

I believe this is because WN has more -800 series aircraft scheduled at DAL than before, which requires 45-55 minutes to turn. -700 aircraft can be turned in 30-40 minutes.

Too bad there isn't a way WN can load and unload planes at both ends. Jet bridges that go over wings would help, but the risk of damaging aircraft makes them problematic.

incitatus wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

What on earth were the regulators doing when they put all sorts of restrictions of DAL in the first place that caused this? There shouldn't be a gate restriction at DAL. If they fully opened up the airport and allowed for as many gates as physically possible, WN could expand to everywhere they want from DAL, while competitors could come in and start service.

But nope, gotta protect that AA monopoly at DFW.

Calling for more gates at DAL while Southwest tries to go from 95% monopoly to 100% monopoly with zero competitors is a diversion tactic. Meanwhile there are 20+ airlines serving DFW. In this context saying AA has a monopoly at DFW can't be taken seriously - it is an alternative fact.

A monopoly is a monopoly. I am very suprised that the US government allows it at DAL. They have prevented monopolies at many other airports for years.

SelseyBill wrote:

Not an expert on WN or DAL; but doesn't the average gate utilisation shown here seem comparatively extremely poor ? Most of these gates barely have one WN departure an hour on average. I thought WN were world leaders in quick-turnarounds ?

Are there reasons for this ?

~1 departure an hour on average from a gate is actually really good utilization no matter what airline we are talking about.

kiowa wrote:

A monopoly is a monopoly. I am very suprised that the US government allows it at DAL. They have prevented monopolies at many other airports for years.

You are aware the initial WA was created by the Federal Government and all subsequent version have to be approved by the Federal Government?

jplatts wrote:

The 5-party agreement and the Wright Amendment Reform Act of 2006 should both be amended to allow expansion of Dallas Love Field beyond 20 gates and any expansion of Dallas Love Field beyond 20 gates should be about accommodating more non-Southwest service out of DAL, including by AA, DL, and AS, and not solely about further expansion of Southwest's DAL operation.

I believe that scrapping the entire WRONG Amendment Reform Act of 2006 would accomplish all your goals and provide space for any interested airlines that want air service at DAL. Secondly, the City of Fort Worth who has always had their fingers in this issue should have no part or say in this issue which irrefutably has nothing to do with them. This entire episode of collusion against DAL was clearly planned hatred toward free and competitive air service at DAL as shown by the original WRONG amendment and the later miserable agreement that followed years later which still restricts service with fewer gates than before to this very day.

Its funny reading talk of expansion, am I wandering where?

The head house is not getting any bigger, how many more pax does one think they funnel through it? It will be like Terminal A at EWR, TSA lines stretching to the front door.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dalla ... 96.8512063

Polot wrote:

SelseyBill wrote:

Not an expert on WN or DAL; but doesn't the average gate utilisation shown here seem comparatively extremely poor ? Most of these gates barely have one WN departure an hour on average. I thought WN were world leaders in quick-turnarounds ?

Are there reasons for this ?

~1 departure an hour on average from a gate is actually really good utilization no matter what airline we are talking about.

Not arguing with you Polot, but I'm genuinely surprised at this 'poor' gate utilisation rate.

Given some of the quick turn-rounds I've regularly witnessed of 55 minutes on bigger 2-class aircraft @ some UK airports; I'd have thought it eminently possible for WN to achieve 40 minute turn-rounds on single-class B738 @ DAL if they wanted to; (allowing up to 17 departures p/gate in a 12 hour operating window, and easily up to 20 p/day). I guess its the usual business equation of costs and revenue.

Not trying to tell WN its business; they're obviously the experts here; but, seems to me, there's potentially more juice to squeeze out of the lemon for WN @ DAL.......

SelseyBill wrote:

Given some of the quick turn-rounds I've regularly witnessed of 55 minutes on bigger 2-class aircraft @ some UK airports; I'd have thought it eminently possible for WN to achieve 40 minute turn-rounds on single-class B738 @ DAL if they wanted to; (allowing up to 17 departures p/gate in a 12 hour operating window, and easily up to 20 p/day). I guess its the usual business equation of costs and revenue.

You are assuming that the next flight is immediately arriving as soon the previous one leaves the gate. That does not happen at all gates all day for a variety of reasons- namely that it allows zero padding in case of a delay and it ignores that there are certain times of the day that are less popular for travelers (both at DAL...and wherever the inbound plane is coming from or outbound flight is going to).

par13del wrote:

kiowa wrote:

A monopoly is a monopoly. I am very suprised that the US government allows it at DAL. They have prevented monopolies at many other airports for years.

You are aware the initial WA was created by the Federal Government and all subsequent version have to be approved by the Federal Government?

If I recall correctly, WN said they were satisfied with 16 (of the 20) gates at DAL; that left at least some room for token competition. That is what the government (and the airlines) accepted under the modified WA.

Now they want to gobble up 18 - if not all 20 - gates. That eliminates the competition.

Polot wrote:

SelseyBill wrote:

Given some of the quick turn-rounds I've regularly witnessed of 55 minutes on bigger 2-class aircraft @ some UK airports; I'd have thought it eminently possible for WN to achieve 40 minute turn-rounds on single-class B738 @ DAL if they wanted to; (allowing up to 17 departures p/gate in a 12 hour operating window, and easily up to 20 p/day). I guess its the usual business equation of costs and revenue.

You are assuming that the next flight is immediately arriving as soon the previous one leaves the gate. That does not happen at all gates all day for a variety of reasons- namely that it allows zero padding in case of a delay and it ignores that there are certain times of the day that are less popular for travelers (both at DAL...and wherever the inbound plane is coming from or outbound flight is going to).

Exactly, you can't build a schedule that has a plane arriving just as every single one leaves. That will never work. And things are already tough enough when irrops occur.

Will Southwest serve PIE?

Southwest flies to TPA. TPA is an airport. PIE is also an airport. Both have runways and gates. The population is growing. TPA has growing demand. PIE also has growing demand. TPA has nonstop service to Baltimore, but it doesn't have nonstop service to Harrisburg. Harrisburg is a big city. The only big city that doesn't have service to TPA is Allentown. Allentown and Harrisburg were served by AirTran. Southwest merged with AirTran and ended service from Allentown to Harrisburg. But people still fly Southwest, even though there is no AirTran. People flew AirTran, even though there was Southwest. If Southwest decides to fly to PIE, will they serve TPA from PIE? St Petersburg and Tampa used to have nonstop service on the Tampa-St Petersburg Airboat. Herb Kelleher got the Tony Jannus Award. Therefore, Southwest must be considering serving PIE. From TPA. Due to gates. Also runways. And probably Milwaukee. Also Louisville.

Will Southwest ever fly from TPA to PIE?

Will Southwest get seaplanes?

par13del wrote:

kiowa wrote:

A monopoly is a monopoly. I am very suprised that the US government allows it at DAL. They have prevented monopolies at many other airports for years.

You are aware the initial WA was created by the Federal Government and all subsequent version have to be approved by the Federal Government?

that is a whole debate on it's own and has had many threads. are you saying the US government is always fair and just or can we agree that they can be moved for political reasons? ($$$$)

kiowa wrote:

incitatus wrote:

ADrum23 wrote:

What on earth were the regulators doing when they put all sorts of restrictions of DAL in the first place that caused this? There shouldn't be a gate restriction at DAL. If they fully opened up the airport and allowed for as many gates as physically possible, WN could expand to everywhere they want from DAL, while competitors could come in and start service.

But nope, gotta protect that AA monopoly at DFW.

Calling for more gates at DAL while Southwest tries to go from 95% monopoly to 100% monopoly with zero competitors is a diversion tactic. Meanwhile there are 20+ airlines serving DFW. In this context saying AA has a monopoly at DFW can't be taken seriously - it is an alternative fact.

A monopoly is a monopoly. I am very suprised that the US government allows it at DAL. They have prevented monopolies at many other airports for years.

If it were up to me, I'd force everyone (WN and AS) to move to DFW where they'd have to face real competition.

Fair is giving WN 16 of 20 gates after they spent years building traffic at DAL in the face of a Federal Law designed and meant to punish anyone who dared to continue or attempt commercial air traffic at DAL.
Unjust is that they allowed the agreement to limit the airport to 20 gates with WN getting 16, now rather than having an agreement that punishes carriers for operating at DAL they simply give all the gates to the one airline who they know has no choice but to use them so the rest limited access if any.

At the end of the day nothing has really changed, WN is allowed to stay at DAL but their punishment is changed form the Texas Two Step to limited or no expansion with the same limited or no competition.
One does have to wonder in all this why some other states have not tried to woo WN as the car companies and other commercial ventures have been encouraged to relocate from high wage and tax environments.

KarlB737 wrote:

I believe that scrapping the entire WRONG Amendment Reform Act of 2006 would accomplish all your goals and provide space for any interested airlines that want air service at DAL. Secondly, the City of Fort Worth who has always had their fingers in this issue should have no part or say in this issue which irrefutably has nothing to do with them. This entire episode of collusion against DAL was clearly planned hatred toward free and competitive air service at DAL as shown by the original WRONG amendment and the later miserable agreement that followed years later which still restricts service with fewer gates than before to this very day.

Actually the city of Ft Worth has an interest in the matter. It teamed up with the City of Dallas to build DFW, on the premise that airline service at DAL would end and the two cities would support a single airport. To say Ft. Worth has nothing to do with the DAL matter is ignorant.