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Jayafe
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:42 pm

enilria wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Tim Clark is speaking at the #AviationFest in London and mentioned Emirates may explore all-economy A380s to compete against the rising long-haul low-cost carriers.

If AA/DL/UA were right that EK doesn't care about profitability, why would they even do things like make the A380 more dense (as they keep doing)? More evidence AA/DL/UA are playing politics.


Dont ruin conspiracy theories! What do you expect the US3 to answer if facts come up?
 
airbazar
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:55 pm

downdata wrote:
r2rho wrote:
Offering up to 4 different economy class products

So, Premium Y, Y+, Y- ... I can't imagine what would be the fourth one. Up to now, only AA has segmented Y into three classes on some aircraft (a good move IMO)


NZ does 5

https://www.airnewzealand.com.au/seat


TAP has 4 economy and 2 business.
https://www.flytap.com/en-us/booking-in ... p-products
 
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LAXintl
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:51 pm

Clark also said EK is not in a position to commit more A380s until they get better clarity on residual aircraft values and long term future of A380 program. "We don’t want to be left with aircraft that have no value.”


Emirates Is Not Ready to Commit to More Airbus Super Jumbos
https://skift.com/2017/09/07/emirates-i ... er-jumbos/

=
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:54 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Low cast airlines really are ruining this industry


In other words, if it weren't for those pesky billions who can't afford to travel on traditional airlines and these new LCCs trying to serve them, we'd all be much better off.

Whatever.....
-Dave


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Jayafe
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:57 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Clark also said EK is not in a position to commit more A380s until they get better clarity on residual aircraft values and long term future of A380 program. "We don’t want to be left with aircraft that have no value.”


Emirates Is Not Ready to Commit to More Airbus Super Jumbos
https://skift.com/2017/09/07/emirates-i ... er-jumbos/

=


Which is the same he already said when Airbus put the Plus on the table. No breaking news.
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:16 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Which is the same he already said when Airbus put the Plus on the table. No breaking news.

Right, just a consistent dark shadow being publicly cast by the type's biggest supporter and dominant customer...

Along with a suggestion of a pivot away from the premium clientele the type has been able to profit from serving for a decade or so.

Nothing to see here, move on...
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:51 pm

In a way, the ME3 led by EK have brought this upon themselves. They've offered cheap fares via their hubs with decent service, undercutting other legacy airline's fares, so legacy airlines have cut services, created LCC offshoots in order to compete. Then the new generation of long-haul LCC's enter the market. EK responds with this news. And the downward spiral in air travel continues unabated.
 
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RL777
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:12 pm

Interesting development, I think there's a very good chance this idea gets off the ground if Indigo and the likes continue the LHLCC expansion in the region. Different classes of economy would be challenging to get right, I'd imagine a two class config of PEY and the current Y product is the likeliest route should they choose to pursue this option.
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:59 pm

I wonder if the 5-class AF 77Ws are what Tim Clark has in mind---they have F, J, W, Y+ 10 abreast and Y 10 abreast. On the Dreamliners of AA, some seats have only 30" pitch. But you can't do that on an A380 already hard to fill...in a B77W it can be done, but EK would need a true W product first. EK would need to simplify to a 737/777/787 fleet to pull this off.
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:25 pm

TC957 wrote:
In a way, the ME3 led by EK have brought this upon themselves. They've offered cheap fares via their hubs with decent service, undercutting other legacy airline's fares, so legacy airlines have cut services, created LCC offshoots in order to compete. Then the new generation of long-haul LCC's enter the market. EK responds with this news. And the downward spiral in air travel continues unabated.


I guess I'm confused. Some of the F and J class offerings out there are amazing. It's not the airline's fault that fewer businesses are opting to pay for them. There are more options for travelers than ever when you consider Y-, Y, Y+, W, J, F. If you want more room/amenities, choose Y+ or W. Don't begrudge those who are happy with less.
-Dave


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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:59 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I wonder if the 5-class AF 77Ws are what Tim Clark has in mind---they have F, J, W, Y+ 10 abreast and Y 10 abreast. On the Dreamliners of AA, some seats have only 30" pitch. But you can't do that on an A380 already hard to fill...in a B77W it can be done, but EK would need a true W product first. EK would need to simplify to a 737/777/787 fleet to pull this off.


Great point and example. To me, this AF layout is awesome, gives you something of everything, and with a large hub operation, can top off premium seats with connections.

EK appears to have so much potential with FlyDubai. Are there an reasons / ownership rules why they cannot cooperate more closely?
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380

Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:07 am

horizon360 wrote:
r2rho wrote:
So, Premium Y, Y+, Y- ... I can't imagine what would be the fourth one.


What are the odds that their new Y- section will be 11-abreast?

I see 4 easy.
7-across top deck, 20.5" wide, 38" pitch. An old business class seats branded as Y++ as business class is becoming full flat. Two 30kg bags included.

8-across on the top deck with 36" pitch. One 20kg bag included. Sold as Y+

10- across on the bottom deck with 33" or 34" pitch. Baggage included will be market dependent. Sold as Y

11-across lower deck and 9-across upper deck, 30" pitch, sold as Y-. Baggage an extra fee.


Lightsaber
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380

Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:46 am

lightsaber wrote:
horizon360 wrote:
r2rho wrote:
So, Premium Y, Y+, Y- ... I can't imagine what would be the fourth one.


What are the odds that their new Y- section will be 11-abreast?

I see 4 easy.
7-across top deck, 20.5" wide, 38" pitch. An old business class seats branded as Y++ as business class is becoming full flat. Two 30kg bags included.

8-across on the top deck with 36" pitch. One 20kg bag included. Sold as Y+

10- across on the bottom deck with 33" or 34" pitch. Baggage included will be market dependent. Sold as Y

11-across lower deck and 9-across upper deck, 30" pitch, sold as Y-. Baggage an extra fee.


Lightsaber


The problem is that you have too much plane in an A388. A B77W or a B789, and to lesser extent an A350 (but you can't go 10Y without going to a 16.8" seat width) allow for 5-class seating.
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:15 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Tim Clark is speaking at the #AviationFest in London and mentioned Emirates may explore all-economy A380s to compete against the rising long-haul low-cost carriers.


Amazing what people will bite on. Yes Emirates may do many things. They may also study bringing back the Ford Tri-Motor, they may study a small fleet of rebuilt DC-3 aircraft, they may even study painting their buildings and aircraft bright pink.

They may not do any of that either... including that they may not explore an all-economy A380...

Can't you at least wait until someone says that Emirates (or others ) is.... (even if its only studying some concept).

May gets you nothing. Is means you are doing something.

Have a great day,
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:21 am

Just curious, what all do Long Haul LCCs charge for? Do you have to buy on board for longer flights too? Do they charge for even one checked in bag?
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:48 am

seahawk wrote:
It is a trend in the industry. First and even biz are under threat from the biz jets. When you need to fly 4 executives to a meeting and all would get a biz ticket a private jet is not much more expensive but much more flexible and allows to reduce the time wasted at airports.


Funny though... back in the 2000s it was a.net "common knowledge" that all the profit was from premium passengers and anyone suggesting economy passengers might contribute was roundly shouted down.

Probably the same people who insisted that belly freight was even more profitable than the premium passengers... :roll:
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:07 am

Clipper101 wrote:
Interesting that a new segment is opening up for the A380 in a high densed sector market: First Malaysian in Al-Haj A380 concept, then Hi Fly & now EK.


To be honest, it's about bloody time!

This is what it was designed for. There seems to be a sudden swing towards this and I'm hoping we're on the cusp of exciting times ahead - for the A380 market but also for me as an airline customer...
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:23 am

TAP has 4 economy and 2 business.
https://www.flytap.com/en-us/booking-in ... p-products

It's just 4 kinds of bundling options, it is still the same hard product. I think EK is talking about 4 different hard products, and what lightsaber suggests might be the way they'll go.

To be honest, it's about bloody time!

I agree. For too long has the A380 been viewed as a premium flagship only - which is great for the handful of airlines that fly between the world's financial marketplaces, but also limits its usability elsewhere. Some current operators IMO are flying around too premium configs.
The potential of the A380 as a tourist bomber has not yet been explored.
 
parapente
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:06 pm

The 787 is off the table,the A350 is off the table and now the A380 is off the table.Indeed Sir T might retain some of the older A380's.
It really is a time for consolidation.Indeed he has delayed delivery of both the New A380's AND the delivery of 779/778's.ie no expenditure at all (plus delayed expenditure).BTW I guess the new airport is also very much under review right now - why wouldn't it be?

Can anyone see a new A380 order from any other airline?I can't.If BA wanted some I am certain that Emirates would jump at the chance to offload 5-6 in their forward order book at a fully discounted rate.But that hasn't happened either.

Airbus are bending over backwards to keep the line open (they know exactly where the sales will go if they stopped).But they can't give any guarantees that the line will stay open long term.How can they? Emirates have either to take the risk (to buy more)or not.

There was a time they talked about massive 100 plus reorders.It certainly seemed they were aiming at a fleet of 140+ A380's.Then 120 now 100.Even that is a massive fleet the World has never seen the like of before.

IMHO they will take the final 20 +-very slowly and retire the overweight,non piped,non wingretwisted aircraft.If they choose they can refurbish them into these into 4 economy class aircraft.
They have been keeping aircraft for only 12 years-why?BA do 25 years easily.They could double the lifespan easily with internal refurbs.Its the only bit the consumer cares about anyway.

IMHO the A380 will tick along for the next 3 years or so but unless they can find a new engine from somewhere or the market changes dramatically I cannot see it going much further.We know the 777X has a further stretch built in.It may not be perfect for Emirates but it will do.
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:43 pm

r2rho wrote:
The potential of the A380 as a tourist bomber has not yet been explored.


Absolutely! But there seems to be sudden interest, which is good...

Some people refusing to see the upside, of course:

parapente wrote:
IMHO the A380 will tick along for the next 3 years or so but unless they can find a new engine from somewhere or the market changes dramatically I cannot see it going much further.


Quite funny that such completely opposite conclusions on the same subject appear right next to each other. :lol:
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:47 pm

r2rho wrote:
TAP has 4 economy and 2 business.
https://www.flytap.com/en-us/booking-in ... p-products

It's just 4 kinds of bundling options, it is still the same hard product. I think EK is talking about 4 different hard products, and what lightsaber suggests might be the way they'll go.

A different class doesn't necessarily mean a different hard product. That's certainly not what I took from Tim Clark's comment when he says "4 flavors of economy class". Personally I don't see EK going with 5 different types of hard product. It makes absolutely no sense. It's too "inflexible" and makes it very hard to adjust to swinging demand. That is why European carriers for example will sell you a "business class" ticket on the same exact hard product as an economy class ticket. The only thing that changes is the "bundling", and the empty middle seat. But the actual seat that you have and the leg room is exactly the same as economy,
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:46 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
r2rho wrote:
The potential of the A380 as a tourist bomber has not yet been explored.


Absolutely! But there seems to be sudden interest, which is good...

Sudden interest triggered by the availability of under-utilized A380s is one kind of good, yes it is...
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:10 pm

(Random 2 cents here)

My take on "4 flavors of economy class" (In terms of hard product), which is similar to lightsaber's:

Y+: 8 abrest, 36'' pitch, with meal services and PTV, 2x 30kg check-in baggage
Y: 10 abrest, 31'' pitch, with meal services and PTV, 1x 23kg check-in baggage
Y-: 11 abrest, 28'' pitch, pay for meal and no PTV, no check-in baggage included
Y--: 11 abrest, standing seat, pay for everything, including going to restroom. :stirthepot:
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:35 pm

aviationjunky wrote:
Also, the issue with an all economy A380 is the amount and wight of bags for the 700+ passengers. I'm sure there is going to be an EXTREME weight restrictions on the passengers and bags.

That... and the issue of evacuation. Would a 380, as currently configured (i.e., exit-wise) provide for the evacuation of 700+ passengers within the prescribed time requirements? And, if not, how expensive - and I'll bet it would be very expensive - would the modifications cost to make it compliant?

johns624 wrote:
It's called "Steerage"...

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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:37 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
kurtverbose wrote:
They should call the lowest class 'Scum class' to encourage people to upgrade.

Lol. Scumbag class has a nice ring ring to it.
 
alfa164
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:45 pm

mrbonfire wrote:
[threeid][/threeid]
kurtverbose wrote:
They should call the lowest class 'Scum class' to encourage people to upgrade.

Lol. Scumbag class has a nice ring ring to it.

...and I think Tim Clark could relate to that, too... ;)
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horizon360
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:41 am

alfa164 wrote:
That... and the issue of evacuation. Would a 380, as currently configured (i.e., exit-wise) provide for the evacuation of 700+ passengers within the prescribed time requirements? And, if not, how expensive - and I'll bet it would be very expensive - would the modifications cost to make it compliant?


Airbus has already done a successful evacuation test of the A380 with 853 passengers and 20 crew which was approved by the EASA and the FAA.

http://www.aircraft.airbus.com/presscen ... ion-trial/
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:48 am

anshabhi wrote:
Guess which is the only LCC which directly threatens ME3 on their staple passengers-- IndiGo.

India is far from their only market. Europe to SE Asia, Europe to Oz, and ME to anywhere are big parts of the market.
Besides, IndiGo isn't in longhaul currently.
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:47 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is a trend in the industry. First and even biz are under threat from the biz jets. When you need to fly 4 executives to a meeting and all would get a biz ticket a private jet is not much more expensive but much more flexible and allows to reduce the time wasted at airports.


Funny though... back in the 2000s it was a.net "common knowledge" that all the profit was from premium passengers and anyone suggesting economy passengers might contribute was roundly shouted down.

Probably the same people who insisted that belly freight was even more profitable than the premium passengers... :roll:


The profits were good from premium classes, they just became too expensive as the standards rose too much. First class today is a niche for people wanting to fly first, not for people needing to arrive rested at the destination. Biz has also the problem that it now competes with the biz jets.
 
parapente
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:51 am

SomebodyinTLS.Good spot!But that's is part of the point of a forum (differing views).Mind you I did inset a get out clause.'Or the market changes dramatically '.You could (if you chose-I don't) put the mass tourism market in that bracket.
If -as Sir T says- he is being undercut by LCC's.Then that is pure commodity marketing.So he has no choice, he 'has' to lower his prices if he wants/needs that traffic back.
If he wants/needs to claw back his margins (looks like he does) then he has to lower his cost base.One route is more seats and the other is less service.Looks like he's gonna do both.This is of course exactly what IAG/BA have had to do.More seats/less service (and in their case also a new brand name).

But my concern for the aircraft type as a whole has nothing to do with this.Indeed as suggested mass 'Y-' class may be a future.No it's the rise of the 789/359 direct flights that are cutting off the 380 blood supply.Whether it be on this forum or airline mags etc every week one reads of more and more of these flights.I note the Houston- Sydney as perhaps the most recent example here.Every time it happens (Melbourne next?) less traffic will go through the traditional mass hubs.

The Emirates 'one stop from/to anywhere' is not broken but it now has clear limitations/competition .Hence my rather pessimistic outlook for the a/c.
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380

Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:58 am

r2rho wrote:
Offering up to 4 different economy class products

So, Premium Y, Y+, Y- ... I can't imagine what would be the fourth one. Up to now, only AA has segmented Y into three classes on some aircraft (a good move IMO)

You forget to count the standard Y
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Lentini2001
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:58 am

Well, they need to think of something to do with all of them.
 
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Clipper101
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380

Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:29 pm

For long airlines had unconfirmed low fare tickets that are subject to load (waiting list) & had designated priority boarding classifications. The thing is, when you get lucky & board the plane you get the same service as those passengers with higher fares. A good deal for some lucky passengers & a good deal for airlines since there would be a point were any dollar you get is considered a profit if you consider your other choice being to fly an empty seat.

It is good nowadays that that idea is being developed more & evoloved to get a cost structure were ticket fares are also associated with the type of service you get. It is also fairer to higher paying passengers !

MIflyer12 wrote:
Services a la carte can be (un)bundled and delivered pretty easily. When you start messing with seat width and seat pitch you're going to get inventory problems: not enough (the extra pitch window seat I wanted) or too much (and had to give a 'nice' seat to somebody who didn't pay for it).


Or, who knows may be those multi-million dollars in yield management softwares are beginning to show trends in higher accuracy than before to assist in a better judment and decision making !
Last edited by Clipper101 on Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:31 pm

Lentini2001 wrote:
Well, they need to think of something to do with all of them.

Something all of us have been wondering as they kept ordering more and more of the Whales. First sign of saturation was going to the 2-class 614 pax layout. No one knows what's next, but its clear they're engaged in the race to the bottom and are accelerating their pace. How to do that while preserving the profits they need to capture to keep the vast enterprise afloat is going to be very interesting! Sounds like a real headache for Tim's successors.
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Clipper101
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:55 pm

Seven out of the last eight A380's delivered to EK are 2-class.
 
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Clipper101
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:12 pm

Clipper101 wrote:
Seven out of the last eight A380's delivered to EK are 2-class.


Apologies, it is six out of last seven A380's delivered to EK are 2-class. Sorry for that.
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:32 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
r2rho wrote:


Wow, I was not aware. Now -that- is confusing.

I don't. It's pretty simple to understand IMHO - you just pay for what you need. And you can still pay for many things later if you decided that you need them, like food, baggage or entertainment. In addition, this arrangement only exists on their Trans-Tasman, domestic & selected leisure destinations - i.e. the likes of DPS, HNL etc. Not on their longer flights to Asia, North America and Europe.

I would say it's actually an effective method to counter LCCs without investing too much on new airlines, new products, etc., so long as you can keep your costs down to a reasonable level to make your flights profitable with minimal ancillary revenue.

Michael


I think this is the way many airlines are going to have to go. That way, everything is ala carte and people who want it can buy it, while those who cannot afford it don't have to pay for it and dont get it.
 
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seahawk
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:34 pm

Revelation wrote:
Lentini2001 wrote:
Well, they need to think of something to do with all of them.

Something all of us have been wondering as they kept ordering more and more of the Whales. First sign of saturation was going to the 2-class 614 pax layout. No one knows what's next, but its clear they're engaged in the race to the bottom and are accelerating their pace. How to do that while preserving the profits they need to capture to keep the vast enterprise afloat is going to be very interesting! Sounds like a real headache for Tim's successors.

It is not a race to the bottom it is a way to reach new customers. That can be price sensitive customers from the developed countries or the growing middle class in Asia and Africa.
 
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:31 pm

seahawk wrote:
It is not a race to the bottom it is a way to reach new customers. That can be price sensitive customers from the developed countries or the growing middle class in Asia and Africa.

The goal is to make the most money possible. If they can do that by cramming the most number of people into the least amount of space they will do that. Up to this point they've been able to secure enough profit via the incremental increases in value to the customer. Things seem to be changing.

It's going to be a complicated future. The LCCs can simply offer one product. Others that are used to capturing the increased revenues from premium services are going to have to sort out exactly what things people value enough to pay for and find a way to offer a service to each tier of passengers, whilst taking on the LCCs with a simpler one-size-fits-all approach.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Clipper101
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:44 am

Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:48 pm

I got curious to where might EK dispatch those 12 strong 2-class A380’s (Al-Haj may be??!!). So, I did a little homework for the last available week between 02 - 09 Sep 2017 & got the following destinations with each its number of turn-around flights (notice Al-Haj pilgrims supposedly begun their trip home starting 03 Sep mostly through Jeddah or Al Madina.):

KUL = 17 turn-around flights
BKK = 14
MAN = 11
BHX = 9
MRU = 8
CDG = 7
TPE = 7
CPH = 6
PRG = 6
MAD = 2
BCN = 1
DME = 1
JED = 1
KWI = 1
LGW = 1
MUC = 1
PEK = 1
PVG = 1

This year I have noticed for AMM, CAI & BEY that EK have inserted extra B777 flights in addition to those scheduled during this Summer season, towards the beginning & the end; so, I am wondering that in the future is it possible we might see one 2-class A380 taking over one schedule plus the extra flight on some of those routes; just to give example of 2-class (or may be all economy) A380 potential.
 
c933103
Posts: 3918
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
Something all of us have been wondering as they kept ordering more and more of the Whales. First sign of saturation was going to the 2-class 614 pax layout. No one knows what's next, but its clear they're engaged in the race to the bottom and are accelerating their pace. How to do that while preserving the profits they need to capture to keep the vast enterprise afloat is going to be very interesting! Sounds like a real headache for Tim's successors.

People used to say the A380 is too large and thus airlines put in amenities, first class suite, and all those facilities to help raise the value of their aircraft instead of putting in unsellable seats. In my opinion, with EK removing premium cabin from those flights, it indicate the ability for EK to sell out those extra seats without needing extra facilities, and thus indicating A380 is not too large for them.
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Waterbomber
Posts: 849
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:51 am

Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:50 pm

This looks like another fake news to keep EK in the news, but it makes it look like EK have over-ordered and are now trying to find new use for the excess A380. Again an airline that doesn't try to the match the capacity to the needs, but tries to find needs to match a capacity. Another sign of incompetence.
Does anyone have proof of their subsidies? No, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.
However, no matter how you look at it, you need subsidies to bridge the gap between the results they post and the unsustainable and inefficient way in which they operate.

By the way, an example of the incompetence in their way of thinking is that if there really is a market for an all-economy A380, there should be a market for all-economy B77W's long before that. That's what number-run airlines do.
But when you're a subsidies-run airline, you can afford to skip a few steps on your way to growth.
I'd like to call this going "From a tricycle, right into a Ferrari."
 
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Jayafe
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Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:48 am

Waterbomber wrote:
Does anyone have proof of their subsidies? No, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.


Bringing theology to the forum? :boggled: Facts please, no faith...
 
zkncj
Posts: 3368
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: EK to study all-economy A380

Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:13 am

BaconButty wrote:
downdata wrote:
r2rho wrote:
So, Premium Y, Y+, Y- ... I can't imagine what would be the fourth one. Up to now, only AA has segmented Y into three classes on some aircraft (a good move IMO)


NZ does 5

https://www.airnewzealand.com.au/seat


Aren't they just packaging up the same seat with extras, though?

The only 4th Economy product I can thing of would be the family couch that CI and NZ have.


NZ owns the patent for the 3 Y seats converting into an bed, CI pays NZ for the rights to use the concpect - Don't know if NZ would be willing to let EK use the product.
 
parapente
Posts: 3061
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:42 pm

Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:56 am

If there is a real marketing need to do something quickly regarding the LCC market penetration then the obvious thing to do is change the 'soft product' aspects and retain the 18.5 Y seat as a USP.They could reduce legroom,eliminate free food and eliminate free baggage.Thus they might be able to add an extra row or two and reduce the headline ticket price to match the LCC's.
Introducing 11 across at '18 in' would require time and product investment.
Regarding the new 2 class aircraft.Many commentators have suggested that the small amount of the new upstairs Y was a natural for a Y premium class.I suppose one could do it the cheap (and quick) way -many have- and simply offer increased legroom pitch ( wider meal /drinks choice?).
But use the same 18.5" seats.
 
AAMDanny
Posts: 293
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:15 am

There are probably some markets that an all-Y A380 could easily compliment the already established EK network, I could see them on some of the UK>DXB>Indian routes for sure, especially in the outside of London stations such as BHX/MAN that already see an A380 service.
 
behramjee
Posts: 5006
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

Re: EK to study all-economy A380

Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:02 am

lightsaber wrote:
horizon360 wrote:
r2rho wrote:
So, Premium Y, Y+, Y- ... I can't imagine what would be the fourth one.


What are the odds that their new Y- section will be 11-abreast?

I see 4 easy.
7-across top deck, 20.5" wide, 38" pitch. An old business class seats branded as Y++ as business class is becoming full flat. Two 30kg bags included.

8-across on the top deck with 36" pitch. One 20kg bag included. Sold as Y+

10- across on the bottom deck with 33" or 34" pitch. Baggage included will be market dependent. Sold as Y

11-across lower deck and 9-across upper deck, 30" pitch, sold as Y-. Baggage an extra fee.


Lightsaber


The above I feel is too cumbersome. A more simplified solution in my view is for EK's 615 seater A380s to become an even more high density aircraft in the following manner:

1. Current configuration is 57+ 558Y

2. New configuration should be 28J + 684 Y (14 more rows 3-3-3 on upper deck) for a total of 712 seats i.e. 97 more

3. Take out one row in Y class just to be safe on the measurements will give you 28J + 675Y so 703 in total

The incremental 88 seats in this above mentioned configuration, EK can use to price match the long haul LCC with many restrictions.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2647
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: EK to study all-economy A380

Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:04 pm

behramjee wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
horizon360 wrote:

What are the odds that their new Y- section will be 11-abreast?

I see 4 easy.
7-across top deck, 20.5" wide, 38" pitch. An old business class seats branded as Y++ as business class is becoming full flat. Two 30kg bags included.

8-across on the top deck with 36" pitch. One 20kg bag included. Sold as Y+

10- across on the bottom deck with 33" or 34" pitch. Baggage included will be market dependent. Sold as Y

11-across lower deck and 9-across upper deck, 30" pitch, sold as Y-. Baggage an extra fee.


Lightsaber


The above I feel is too cumbersome. A more simplified solution in my view is for EK's 615 seater A380s to become an even more high density aircraft in the following manner:

1. Current configuration is 57+ 558Y

2. New configuration should be 28J + 684 Y (14 more rows 3-3-3 on upper deck) for a total of 712 seats i.e. 97 more

3. Take out one row in Y class just to be safe on the measurements will give you 28J + 675Y so 703 in total

The incremental 88 seats in this above mentioned configuration, EK can use to price match the long haul LCC with many restrictions.


What seat width would be the 3-3-3 on the upper deck? If you're going to be 10 a breast on the lower deck it wouldn't be consistent seat width. (Probably).
Great Britain: the worlds gateway to Europe.
 
whywhyzee
Posts: 1102
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:12 am

Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:20 pm

The value of the a-la-carte model (the way I see it, it's just an un-bundled fare) is increased efficiency due to less waste. Just think how many meals go to waste on a typical flight. Allowing the customer to order certain things can effectively reduce the cost of the ticket, and lower the costs for the operator.

For a pax, someone not checking a bag for example would pay less with an unbundled fare, or a passenger not wanting a meal can pay less in the same manner, while at the same time, the airline can better plan for weight, meaning taking a more precise quantity of fuel and saving costs associated, as well as lower catering costs. Picking and choosing certain services can have a substantial impact on operational efficiency. The trick is marketing it as a passenger cost saving venture. If people think that the airline is charging extra for services, rather then less for not providing a certain service, the whole model falls apart.

I think it would be an interesting study to survey say 10000 pax on what they would think of this, the data would certainly be telling.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: EK to study all-economy A380 to combat low cost carriers

Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:28 pm

Back when it was being developed, the 380 was all about the huge 800+ person hordes it could haul all at once into slot restricted airports. Once into service, it was all about luxury suites and stand up bars and such...which pretty much follows the history of the 747. Eventually, cramming in as much self loading cargo as possible ends up being the road to success.

...and that's not a bad thing. As far as I can tell, the current airline traffic is being borne on the backs of the cheapest fliers, not the richest.
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