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KarelXWB
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U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:52 pm

The House is undertaking another effort to block sales of commercial aircraft to Iran:

The House adopted measures on Wednesday to prevent sales of commercial aircraft to Iran, despite warnings from some Democrats that it would undermine the international accord to curtail the country’s nuclear weapons program.

Rep. Peter Roskam (R-Ill.) offered two amendments to a 2018 government spending package that would specifically prohibit the use of funds to authorize financial transactions for the sales and prevent the Office of Foreign Assets Control from clearing licenses to allow aircraft sales.

...

“Until Iran ceases using commercial aircraft to support terrorists and war criminals, western companies ought not be allowed to sell Iranian airliners more aircraft that they can use to fuel Assad’s brutal war,” Roskam said during House floor debate.


Article
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/h ... es-to-iran
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:08 pm

Setting aside politics (which belong on non-Av), this is a lucky break for Airbus.
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:10 pm

I think the phrase 'western companies' would include Airbus?
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:21 pm

Iran already threatened that if there would be more new sanctions they would pull out of the nuclear treaty. And they could see this order blockade as new sanctions. Then Europe will also have to respond with new sanctions, resulting in no more Airbus deliveries. Even if the US only blocks Boeing sales.

If this amendments gets enough votea it basically means that we're back to where we were a couple of years ago. With Air Iran just being lucky that they got a couple of new planes.
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:29 pm

The action, if taken, could apply to U.S. supplied components. Since Airbus uses U.S. built parts they could be affected. And I think there are many who believe that Iran is already breaching the treaty.
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:52 pm

superjeff wrote:
The action, if taken, could apply to U.S. supplied components. Since Airbus uses U.S. built parts they could be affected. And I think there are many who believe that Iran is already breaching the treaty.

I don't think the rest of the World still has any appetite to support petty U.S. led embargoes. I just don't see Europe going along with it.
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:52 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
The House is undertaking another effort to block sales of commercial aircraft to Iran:

The House adopted measures on Wednesday to prevent sales of commercial aircraft to Iran, despite warnings from some Democrats that it would undermine the international accord to curtail the country’s nuclear weapons program.

Rep. Peter Roskam (R-Ill.) offered two amendments to a 2018 government spending package that would specifically prohibit the use of funds to authorize financial transactions for the sales and prevent the Office of Foreign Assets Control from clearing licenses to allow aircraft sales.

...

“Until Iran ceases using commercial aircraft to support terrorists and war criminals, western companies ought not be allowed to sell Iranian airliners more aircraft that they can use to fuel Assad’s brutal war,” Roskam said during House floor debate.


Article
http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/h ... es-to-iran


That is a very interesting way to block sales: If OFAC can't issue licenses, sales can't proceed.

It's actually a pretty twisted way of Congress employing 'the power of the purse.' http://history.house.gov/Institution/Or ... the-Purse/
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:13 pm

This bill still has to be approved by the Senate, yes?

MIflyer12 wrote:
That is a very interesting way to block sales: If OFAC can't issue licenses, sales can't proceed.


My question is, does Airbus already have all the required licences for its IR order or are they issued on a per delivery basis?
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:16 pm

And the congress is doing it by not allowing the fund they're authorizing to be used to approve such sales? Does it actually take any fund to approve such sales?
And I assume since latest Russian and Chinese aircraft alsp have quite a lot of US components, they will also be affected?
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:24 pm

This would have to clear the U.S. Senate and its unlikely to happen. Lets all stay calm and breathe regular until we see whether this has any chance to clear the Senate.
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:29 pm

SonomaFlyer wrote:
This would have to clear the U.S. Senate and its unlikely to happen. Lets all stay calm and breathe regular until we see whether this has any chance to clear the Senate.

Yes, the title of the article is pure hype!

The proper context is:

Both of Roskam’s amendments were adopted by voice votes. Similar amendments offered by Roskam were also adopted as part of a spending bill last year but did not become law.

The House additionally passed separate legislation last November to block the licenses to finance aircraft sales with Iran, but it never got a vote in the Senate.
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:05 pm

While we recognize this is an inherently political topic, political discussion needs to be directed to the Non Aviation Forum. Please keep this thread free of overtly political statements, or they will be removed. Please limit the discussion here to the affects or potential effects on manufacturers and airlines (ergo Civil Aviation discussion).

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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:23 pm

c933103 wrote:
And I assume since latest Russian and Chinese aircraft alsp have quite a lot of US components, they will also be affected?

Not that they'll be of any great appeal to Iranian airlines, but it is the case that some variants of the Il-96 and Tu-204 are available with only Russian components. I recall there also being mentions of a de-Westernised version of the MC-21, and that on the other hand might go over a bit better in Tehran.
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:19 pm

I think the US can block the Airbus sale too. With the exception of RR the engines on AB are going to be US company made or JV-US company made. RR may also fall under embargo rules as apart of Fed approval for the Allison buy out.
 
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Slash787
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:22 pm

Come on, I want to see some 777's in Iran Air colors.
 
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:23 pm

Unfortunately the text is correct -- the US House did pass a voice vote on Roskam's amendments whose effect would be to block aircraft sales to Iran. Of course the Senate would also have to approve the same and the President would have to sign the bill into law before it had effect, but the statement is correct. It's also total hype because the odds of that happening is not very high.
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:32 pm

scbriml wrote:
This bill still has to be approved by the Senate, yes?


And then signed by The President.


MIflyer12 wrote:
That is a very interesting way to block sales: If OFAC can't issue licenses, sales can't proceed.

scbriml wrote:
My question is, does Airbus already have all the required licences for its IR order or are they issued on a per delivery basis?


They have licenses for delivery of a total of 123 aircraft, however those licenses can be retroactively rescinded prior to their use (so in other words, any licenses not yet used to deliver a plane can be cancelled, preventing deliveries going forward). Boeing also has licenses in place for their Iran Air orders (which are also subject to rescinding).
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:02 pm

airbazar wrote:
superjeff wrote:
The action, if taken, could apply to U.S. supplied components. Since Airbus uses U.S. built parts they could be affected. And I think there are many who believe that Iran is already breaching the treaty.

I don't think the rest of the World still has any appetite to support petty U.S. led embargoes. I just don't see Europe going along with it.

Good luck getting that airbus off the ground without US parts.
 
CX747
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:26 pm

Love airplanes and airlines. Good call by the legislators. Airplanes come a distant second to worldwide safety and freedom.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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FlightXCVI
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:29 pm

I don't thing the government should interfere with commercial aircraft sales. Boeing (and anyone else) are private companies. Not government owned.
 
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:40 pm

What is the point. The US don't like people who go against what they think is best for the us agenda E.g the ME3 dispute, Norwegian and now this.

Out of all of them i think the ME3 dispute is the most bizarre.

EDIT: Perhaps the US thinking Iran are using commercial airliners for terrorist activity is even more ridiculous.
Last edited by Arion640 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:43 pm

Just in case some people missed it:

atcsundevil wrote:
Please limit the discussion here to the affects or potential effects on manufacturers and airlines (ergo Civil Aviation discussion).
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:17 pm

This conspiracy theory spread by US ruling forces smells extremely fishy. If Turkey and Saudi Arabia co-operated, any flights from Iran to Syria could be obligated to stop for inspections at their respective teritorries. And then any war-supporting freight may be confiscted as a prize, according to international laws.

EDIT: Shame on me, it seems like I'm sort of illiterate concerning maps! But the overall contradiction remains unchanged: any country may legally capture prizes from powers they consider to be hostile. In real life it happened more often on the seas but those actions had been taken in the civil aviation as well. For instance, Turkey downed Russian civil aircraft several times in order to inspect them for hostile weapon deliveries. That's totally legal.
 
ltbewr
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:25 am

This also raises questions as to sales of any 'western' made aircraft and components to other countries. Even those made in China or Russia have some USA parts. One has to wonder if some Islamic dominate countries will choose Airbus vs. Boeing to stick it to the USA for cutting the deal with Iran.
 
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:16 am

superjeff wrote:
The action, if taken, could apply to U.S. supplied components. Since Airbus uses U.S. built parts they could be affected. And I think there are many who believe that Iran is already breaching the treaty.


Breaching the treaty? Its an agreement, not a treaty. The IAEA certifies it each quarter and it just did recently. If Iran breaches the deal, it will be easy to spot. They will build a nuclear bomb. There is no point in breaching the deal but yet not actually building a bomb which is what Americans are trying to say. I am baffled at the logic the US pushes that Iran would be willing to risk economic collapse with a minor violation. If you are going to risk that farm, you're going to go all in and go all the way like North Korea.

The actual violation would be if the US bans airplane sales. That's specifically listed as a sanction relief in the agreement. Having said that, this is a stunt and it won't get past the Senate. What it does do I think is reduce whatever orders Boeing might have gotten in the near future. No reasonable buyer would trust the US and expect parts long term with actions like these.
 
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:24 am

If any country interests conflict with the US, including aviation, then they are certainly within their rights to hold up or cancel sales of aircraft. It has happened with a number of countries including Iran with the fall of the Shah and the F-14's held for 35 years.
 
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:55 am

CX747 wrote:
Love airplanes and airlines. Good call by the legislators. Airplanes come a distant second to worldwide safety and freedom.

Safety would be much better when all airlines are allowed to fly new airplanes. And what does your "freedom" comment mean?

Manufacturers should have the freedom to sell their products to any legitimate buyer. That is the 'American" way.
 
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:28 am

FlightXCVI wrote:
I don't thing the government should interfere with commercial aircraft sales. Boeing (and anyone else) are private companies. Not government owned.


Within reason. But if this kills billions of business, it would set a rather strong incentive to exclude US technology wherever possible for future projects and kill future prospects for US Avionik and engine manufacturers in none-US aircraft.

This may also be at odds with several Bilateral investment treaty´s the US has signed, so non-US manufacturers may come knocking and ask the US taxpayer to cough up the cash they´ve just lost and in some customer nations, those that also build aircraft (China/Russia come to mind foremost), it may significantly reduce Boeings chances to sell aircraft to customers countries whos manufacturers get screwed out of their business.

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Aesma
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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:52 am

32andBelow wrote:
airbazar wrote:
superjeff wrote:
The action, if taken, could apply to U.S. supplied components. Since Airbus uses U.S. built parts they could be affected. And I think there are many who believe that Iran is already breaching the treaty.

I don't think the rest of the World still has any appetite to support petty U.S. led embargoes. I just don't see Europe going along with it.

Good luck getting that airbus off the ground without US parts.


Airbus has the parts and can sell them. Will the US then try and attack Airbus or European countries ? Over an international agreement that the US is in breach of ?
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Stitch
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:29 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Within reason. But if this kills billions of business, it would set a rather strong incentive to exclude US technology wherever possible for future projects and kill future prospects for US Avionik and engine manufacturers in none-US aircraft.


Which could be interesting considering the two largest aviation electronics manufacturers are US companies and they're in the process of merging into one which should give them even more power and influence in the world market. Plus even "GE" engines are not made of purely US-sourced components (hence why non-US airlines like Air France and Malaysian tend to favor them where possible).


Aesma wrote:
Airbus has the parts and can sell them. Will the US then try and attack Airbus or European countries ? Over an international agreement that the US is in breach of ?


Airbus does not have infinite stocks of such parts - and some of them are probably long-lead time items. They also likely need supplier-support for their existing stocks and that can be denied, as well.
 
IranianMan123
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:09 pm

This ban will not occur. I believe the EU will put pressure on America to not do this. Airbus wants these orders for the A330NEO and A35K. Boeing needs these orders for the 777X/W.
 
tommy1808
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:33 pm

Stitch wrote:
Which could be interesting considering the two largest aviation electronics manufacturers are US companies and they're in the process of merging into one which should give them even more power and influence in the world market. Plus even "GE" engines are not made of purely US-sourced components (hence why non-US airlines like Air France and Malaysian tend to favor them where possible).


It would be interesting in deed, but if possibly hundrets of billion USD in turnover depending on how congressmen in a country where neither manufacturer or customer are located, slept ladt night, US technology companies will feel pricing pressure. That risk will just be priced in.
Or they may fiddle their ownership structure to get out of that "problem".


Airbus does not have infinite stocks of such parts - and some of them are probably long-lead time items. They also likely need supplier-support for their existing stocks and that can be denied, as well.


They may not need the parts, they may just send an invoice to DC and have the US taxpayer reimburse them for their lost business. This this would be decided by an arbitrary court and not the normal legal system, failure to pay would result in the US defaulting just like Argentina. And pretty much for the same reason.

In essence this political play is a very real thread to the US existence as a technology partner in any project that may see revenue from places the US is at odds with.

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Re: House votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:38 pm

atypical wrote:
I think the US can block the Airbus sale too. With the exception of RR the engines on AB are going to be US company made or JV-US company made. RR may also fall under embargo rules as apart of Fed approval for the Allison buy out.

Airbus aircraft have a lot of US-made components, so this bill would effectively block Airbus planes from going to Iran also, unless it solely targets aircraft and not components.
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readytotaxi
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:03 pm

Well Trump stood up at the UN and said Iran is corrupt dictatorship, and he is going to let Boeing sell them aircraft after that?
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KarelXWB
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:05 pm

In addition to the House of Representatives, Trump is speaking at the UN assembly right now:

"The Iranian government masks a corrupt dictatorship behind the false guise of democracy"


Statements like these cannot be good for any relationship, I wouldn't be surprised if the entire commercial aircraft deal collapses.
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:20 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
Well Trump stood up at the UN and said Iran is corrupt dictatorship, and he is going to let Boeing sell them aircraft after that?


Man, what remarkable sphincter control.
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Siddar
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:16 pm

I don't know what the purpose of this amendment is. Just make Iran fly old planes? Basic economics here I don't see Trump supporting this. He is perfectly capable of selling Iran planes one day and then blowing them up the next just as long as the check has cleared for the sale. Really the only reason I can guess for this amendment is to spite those companies who supported this deal in the first place. So its really a destructive action against Airbus and Boeing for supporting this deal in the first place. That is not in my opinion a valid basis for congress taking action.
 
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:05 pm

Siddar wrote:
I don't know what the purpose of this amendment is. Just make Iran fly old planes?


Purely political. I'd go into it in more detail, but we're not supposed to do that here.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:52 pm

Europe comes into action and hopes to save at least the Airbus deal:

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-iran- ... KKBN1CG1Y0

European countries are scrambling to cobble together a package of measures they hope will keep the Iran nuclear deal on track if U.S. President Donald Trump ignores their pleas and decertifies the landmark 2015 agreement this week.

The package would include a strong statement backing the deal by European powers, together with efforts to lobby the U.S. Congress and put wider pressure on Iran, officials said.

But without strong U.S. support for the deal, senior officials in Berlin, Paris and London say it may be only a matter of time before the pact between Tehran and six world powers unravels, with grave consequences for Middle East security, nonproliferation efforts and transatlantic ties.
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:42 pm

As I understand it, even if the President decertifies the agreement, it just throws it back to the Congress to decide whether or not they wish to impose new sanctions - including sanctions against selling commercial aircraft and commercial aircraft components to Iran. So it sounds like a decertification in and of itself will not scuttle Airbus' and Boeing's existing deals. Congress would have to explicitly pass new sanctions prohibiting that and I am not sure they have the votes (especially in the Senate).
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:48 pm

Stitch wrote:
As I understand it, even if the President decertifies the agreement, it just throws it back to the Congress to decide whether or not they wish to impose new sanctions - including sanctions against selling commercial aircraft and commercial aircraft components to Iran. So it sounds like a decertification in and of itself will not scuttle Airbus' and Boeing's existing deals. Congress would have to explicitly pass new sanctions prohibiting that and I am not sure they have the votes (especially in the Senate).


There is always a risk that Iran may walk away from the deal as tensions between the country and the US are building up.
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Stitch
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:51 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Stitch wrote:
As I understand it, even if the President decertifies the agreement, it just throws it back to the Congress to decide whether or not they wish to impose new sanctions - including sanctions against selling commercial aircraft and commercial aircraft components to Iran. So it sounds like a decertification in and of itself will not scuttle Airbus' and Boeing's existing deals. Congress would have to explicitly pass new sanctions prohibiting that and I am not sure they have the votes (especially in the Senate).


There is always a risk that Iran may walk away from the deal as tensions between the country and the US are building up.


Yes, they could decide to just scrap the Airbus and Boeing deals themselves ("walk away"), but considering the effort they went through to help forge them, I find that unlikely.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:51 pm

Please be sure to discuss the aviation impacts to this topic. Political commentary belongs in Non Av.

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KarelXWB
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:58 am

https://leehamnews.com/2017/10/16/trump ... ers-doubt/

President Donald Trump announced Friday he will decertify the Iran nuclear deal, throwing into doubt a host of related commercial deals, including huge aircraft orders.
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kaitak
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:42 am

It's quite a while since IR received its A330s and A321s; I know there have been a few ATR72s, but what are the next aircraft scheduled to be delivered to IR (or other Iranian carriers), under the deals agreed? after the nuclear agreement?
 
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:08 am

1 or 2 A320 CEO in December/ January, another ATR in November and our first B777-300ER in April 2018
 
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Stitch
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Re: U.S. House of Representatives votes to block aircraft sales to Iran

Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:47 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
https://leehamnews.com/2017/10/16/trump-decertifies-iran-nuke-deal-throws-airbus-boeing-orders-doubt/

President Donald Trump announced Friday he will decertify the Iran nuclear deal, throwing into doubt a host of related commercial deals, including huge aircraft orders.


Which means it now goes to the US Congress and they lack the votes in the Senate to do anything but let the deal continue as currently implemented. It's an easy call for The President to make to "look tough on Iran" without actually being tough on them.

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Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos