HALFA
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:11 am

HA 446 apparently didn't have any issues last night. They did not divert and arrived in HNL ahead of schedule.
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seat55a
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:46 am

BREECH wrote:
I have two questions.

One. How damn big is that digger to sever a steel pipe? Or how small is that pipeline to be severed by a digger? And whose brilliant idea was it to not build a backup?

And two. How hard can it be to deliver fuel by trucks? The fuel line starts somewhere, right? Load it onto trucks, drive, unload. They have some pretty big trucks downunder and an enormous trucking industry. One "road train" will be good for a A380, 3-4 A330s and a whole flock of A320s. Not the most economical solution, but better than facing law suits and penalties for contractual breaches, and "reputational losses".

One (a): Moderate contact with the pipe months ago initiated corrosion and weakening. 10 inch pipe the media says. Pipelines are efficient.
One (b): Possibly a shortsighted decision in retrospect. But you won't last long in business if you insist on looking more than 3 months ahead...
Two: See one(b) - AKL has several hundred flights a day, a truck could only make a couple round trips a day, that's a lot of trucks. Nobody has excess kit like that lying around. Also, this ain't Australia, loading gauge on that road is fairly limited. No triples in NZ.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:49 am

BREECH wrote:
I have two questions.

One. How damn big is that digger to sever a steel pipe? Or how small is that pipeline to be severed by a digger? And whose brilliant idea was it to not build a backup?

And two. How hard can it be to deliver fuel by trucks? The fuel line starts somewhere, right? Load it onto trucks, drive, unload. They have some pretty big trucks downunder and an enormous trucking industry. One "road train" will be good for a A380, 3-4 A330s and a whole flock of A320s. Not the most economical solution, but better than facing law suits and penalties for contractual breaches, and "reputational losses".



To answer question one: It doesn't have to be big, just big enough to crack the pipeline. Once pressure is increased, the pressure will do the rest of the job of severing. Doesn't take a lot of pressure on a relatively small area to produce a crack.

Two: Wrong country. New Zealand doesn't do road trains -- at best they do B-doubles (so, limited to about 30T of fuel). It would take a couple of those to fill a single A380. Sadly the road infrstructure into most airports wouldn't be able to cope with the vast number of tankers that would be required to supply a day's operations (if they could actually get sufficient tankers in short order). Getting the required fleet of tankers would be the most difficult part of it all -- you can't just pump aircraft-grade fuel into a tanker that had just delivered a load of 95-octane unleaded. Cleaning tankers to ensure no contamination takes a couple of hours at best.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:18 am

I think they should have more than a few days of fuel in storage at AKL airport. 1-2 weeks worth of normal operations would be a better margin for these sorts of events. Also, I was surprised to read on the pipe operators site that the different fuel types are pumped down the pipe one after another, with minimal mixing. So at any one time you may have a slug of Jet A followed by a slug of 91 petrol. Interesting. I wonder how they know when to shunt the pipe over to the airport when the Jet A arrives.

How are they getting fuel now - tankers? Or still running off the reserves?
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:31 am

77west wrote:
I think they should have more than a few days of fuel in storage at AKL airport. 1-2 weeks worth of normal operations would be a better margin for these sorts of events. Also, I was surprised to read on the pipe operators site that the different fuel types are pumped down the pipe one after another, with minimal mixing. So at any one time you may have a slug of Jet A followed by a slug of 91 petrol. Interesting. I wonder how they know when to shunt the pipe over to the airport when the Jet A arrives.

How are they getting fuel now - tankers? Or still running off the reserves?


They probably meter volume. There's always some mixing going on between fuel types.. it's known as transmix, and some parties bid on to use for whatever.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:27 am

77west wrote:
I think they should have more than a few days of fuel in storage at AKL airport. 1-2 weeks worth of normal operations would be a better margin for these sorts of events.


2 weeks usage is about 56 million litres. At about $0.60 per litre this is ~NZ$33.5m in working capital permanently tied up in just the fuel. This doesn't take into account the capital that would be permanently tied up in the land and the increased storage tanks.
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:36 am

QR has not diverted so far, but I received notification that tomorrow it will go via MEL and the RTD is 1255 instead of 1455.
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:41 am

BREECH wrote:
I have two questions.

One. How damn big is that digger to sever a steel pipe? Or how small is that pipeline to be severed by a digger? And whose brilliant idea was it to not build a backup?

And two. How hard can it be to deliver fuel by trucks? The fuel line starts somewhere, right? Load it onto trucks, drive, unload. They have some pretty big trucks downunder and an enormous trucking industry. One "road train" will be good for a A380, 3-4 A330s and a whole flock of A320s. Not the most economical solution, but better than facing law suits and penalties for contractual breaches, and "reputational losses".

Road trains aren't legal in New Zealand. They are too long for our tight and twisty roads, very different to Australia's geography. Aussie road trains only usually go on very long straight roads. A single long haul flight (777 or similar) takes over 100,000 L, which means for us, 2-4 commercial truck and trailer loads. When the fleet isn't particularly large, even the NZDF are joining in, with smaller tankers, that take 20 loads per LH flight, so ~5000 L. There just simply isn't enough road transport to satisfy the extra jet fuel demands at AKL, as well as the public's vehicle fuel. The pipe was a 10 inch steel pipe, which wouldn't take much to puncture. I heard that the pipe was scratched a few months ago, and corroded through, so a digger working in nearby ground was all it took to unsettle it.
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joffie
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:01 am

Strange enough fuel for QR921. Suppose they really wanna keep the title of the worlds longest flight and not divert at all.
Malaysia Airlines diverted to MEL this afternoon to take on extra fuel. I also noticed yesterdays EK AKL-DXB went via Christchurch to top up!
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:38 am

could the decision to allow full tanks to QR somehow be related to max crew duty day?

I would think that even a quick pit stop diversion could cause some of these LH/ULH crews to time out and need a 24hr rest....
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:05 am

Latest NZ flights that have been cancelled for Tuesday/Wednesday

https://www.airnewzealand.com.au/travel ... 6G6vA7Qy5p

MU780 will be diverting to BNE for fuel

https://www.flightradar24.com/CES780/ee71618
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:39 am

Fuel tankers are busy supplying other fuel requirements like petrol, diesel etc, as all these products come down the same line to the large fuel terminal at Wiri. This is close to the airport. The fuel line from the refinery does not go direct to the airport.
I understand tankers are specially certified to transport JET A1, and there just are not enough of these around.
To complicate matters, Christchurch is low on fuel too.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:19 pm

Emirates travel alert regarding EK449 AKL-DXB

From today (18 Sep) through to 24 Sep a fuel stop will be made in MEL

Schedule as follows

EK449 AKL 2030 - MEL 2240
EK449 MEL 0025 - DXB 0830

https://www.emirates.com/au/english/hel ... tes.aspx#/#3336
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:25 pm

aerorobnz wrote:
QR has not diverted so far, but I received notification that tomorrow it will go via MEL and the RTD is 1255 instead of 1455.


According to the QR travel alert this will take place over the next 2 days, the flight will depart AKL 2 hours earlier as already mentioned and arrive in DOH 30 minutes later than usual schedule time

https://qatarairways.zendesk.com/hc/en- ... September-
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:32 pm

Singapore Airlines will make a fuel stop in SYD on the 20th and 21st September, as a result SQ286 will arrive in SIN at 2010 instead of 1900

http://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/sg/me ... d=j7pfi8x7
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BREECH
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:53 pm

seat55a wrote:
Two: See one(b) - AKL has several hundred flights a day, a truck could only make a couple round trips a day, that's a lot of trucks. Nobody has excess kit like that lying around. Also, this ain't Australia, loading gauge on that road is fairly limited. No triples in NZ.

I know NZ is a small country but... THEY ONLY HAVE ONE FUEL TRUCK!? :shock:
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:00 pm

BreninTW wrote:
Two: Wrong country. New Zealand doesn't do road trains -- at best they do B-doubles (so, limited to about 30T of fuel). It would take a couple of those to fill a single A380. Sadly the road infrstructure into most airports wouldn't be able to cope with the vast number of tankers that would be required to supply a day's operations (if they could actually get sufficient tankers in short order). Getting the required fleet of tankers would be the most difficult part of it all -- you can't just pump aircraft-grade fuel into a tanker that had just delivered a load of 95-octane unleaded. Cleaning tankers to ensure no contamination takes a couple of hours at best.

Oh, I understand all difficulties. And the fact that it should be hundreds of truck loads. But it looks like it's worth the effort. Ferry a few (hundred) road trains by sea from that big island in the North, clean them, decon them and restart your airport operations. It's not too simple, but it's not rockets science, either. With quick planning it could be done overnight, really. I understand all the difficulties, but they fade in comparison with what looks like cutting your country from the entire world due to fuel shortages.
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:04 pm

77west wrote:
I think they should have more than a few days of fuel in storage at AKL airport. 1-2 weeks worth of normal operations would be a better margin for these sorts of events.

I may be wrong but I don't think you can do that. Aircraft fuel is so tightly overseen that you have to test it for EVERY "refuelling". Keeping large amounts in reserve is a pain in the downunder. I saw a series called "Flying Wild Alaska" and they DO have a huge fuel reserve in Barrow. They got it water contaminated and it was a nightmare for everyone. Every time a test comes as "no go", your entire fuel reserve is as good as missing. Also, having a huge fuel storage at the airport would raise quite a few protests from "environmental activists", and their lawyers.
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:08 pm

LamboAston wrote:
Road trains aren't legal in New Zealand. They are too long for our tight and twisty roads, very different to Australia's geography. Aussie road trains only usually go on very long straight roads. A single long haul flight (777 or similar) takes over 100,000 L, which means for us, 2-4 commercial truck and trailer loads. When the fleet isn't particularly large, even the NZDF are joining in, with smaller tankers, that take 20 loads per LH flight, so ~5000 L. There just simply isn't enough road transport to satisfy the extra jet fuel demands at AKL, as well as the public's vehicle fuel. The pipe was a 10 inch steel pipe, which wouldn't take much to puncture. I heard that the pipe was scratched a few months ago, and corroded through, so a digger working in nearby ground was all it took to unsettle it.

You seem to know the location. How far are they actually pumping? What's the starting point of that pipe?
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:21 pm

BREECH wrote:
Oh, I understand all difficulties. And the fact that it should be hundreds of truck loads. But it looks like it's worth the effort. Ferry a few (hundred) road trains by sea from that big island in the North, clean them, decon them and restart your airport operations. It's not too simple, but it's not rockets science, either. With quick planning it could be done overnight, really. I understand all the difficulties, but they fade in comparison with what looks like cutting your country from the entire world due to fuel shortages.

By the time you've sourced the trucks, sourced a ship, cleared them into the country and cleaned them, the pipeline has been back up and running for a fortnight.
What you describe though is very similar to the long term contingency plan should the pipeline be out of action for a sustained period of time (months not days).

To say the country is cut off it pure hyperbole. There are significant logistical issues at play and the disruption is significant but we are not cut off; the world is merely an extra refueling stop away.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:32 pm

BREECH wrote:
BreninTW wrote:
Two: Wrong country. New Zealand doesn't do road trains -- at best they do B-doubles (so, limited to about 30T of fuel). It would take a couple of those to fill a single A380. Sadly the road infrstructure into most airports wouldn't be able to cope with the vast number of tankers that would be required to supply a day's operations (if they could actually get sufficient tankers in short order). Getting the required fleet of tankers would be the most difficult part of it all -- you can't just pump aircraft-grade fuel into a tanker that had just delivered a load of 95-octane unleaded. Cleaning tankers to ensure no contamination takes a couple of hours at best.

Oh, I understand all difficulties. And the fact that it should be hundreds of truck loads. But it looks like it's worth the effort. Ferry a few (hundred) road trains by sea from that big island in the North, clean them, decon them and restart your airport operations. It's not too simple, but it's not rockets science, either. With quick planning it could be done overnight, really. I understand all the difficulties, but they fade in comparison with what looks like cutting your country from the entire world due to fuel shortages.


It's ~two weeks to ship from Australia....and it's to the West, not the North.
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:43 pm

coolian2 wrote:
It's ~two weeks to ship from Australia....and it's to the West, not the North.


It's 4-5 day sail from the east coast ports to AKL. http://www.australiatrade.com.au/timeta ... aland.html
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:45 pm

BREECH wrote:
BreninTW wrote:
Two: Wrong country. New Zealand doesn't do road trains -- at best they do B-doubles (so, limited to about 30T of fuel). It would take a couple of those to fill a single A380. Sadly the road infrstructure into most airports wouldn't be able to cope with the vast number of tankers that would be required to supply a day's operations (if they could actually get sufficient tankers in short order). Getting the required fleet of tankers would be the most difficult part of it all -- you can't just pump aircraft-grade fuel into a tanker that had just delivered a load of 95-octane unleaded. Cleaning tankers to ensure no contamination takes a couple of hours at best.

Oh, I understand all difficulties. And the fact that it should be hundreds of truck loads. But it looks like it's worth the effort. Ferry a few (hundred) road trains by sea from that big island in the North, clean them, decon them and restart your airport operations. It's not too simple, but it's not rockets science, either. With quick planning it could be done overnight, really. I understand all the difficulties, but they fade in comparison with what looks like cutting your country from the entire world due to fuel shortages.


The roads can't handle Aussie road trains. Aussie road trains are large and long, as they basically have a big, wide, straight desert road. Our roads are a lot narrower and twisting. Anything bigger than our local trucks simply won't fit on the road, and even if they did, would be too heavy for the road rating. Add to that the trucks would then have to get through Auckland itself, the roads of which are already swamped with traffic; they can't take the load of rush-hour, and definitely not adding hundreds of trucks to it (that said, if one of those trucks had to pull over on the airport motorway, the problem would be solved as no one would be able to get to their flight in the resulting congestion, hence no need for the fuel....). And with the time to simply get the trucks here, and it's not a workable fix in the time between the event and the pipe being fixed. We're not cut-off, just inconvenienced... She'll be right! :bigthumbsup:

The Marsden Point Refinery is about 130km North of NZAA, just South of Whangarei and on the coast. The pipe itself goes to Wiri, a few km East of NZAA, and is then distributed across the region. Doesn't sound like much distance compared to some countries, but again, the roadscape is different. NZ is not known for robust long-term infrastructural spending and especially not redundancy, so all you get is narrow-laned, light-loading roads which get quickly congested with normal traffic, and no alternative infrastructure should anything happen.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:46 pm

BREECH wrote:
... How hard can it be to deliver fuel by trucks? ....They have some pretty big trucks downunder and an enormous trucking industry. One "road train" will ..


As I thought ... "road trains" are exclusive to "the other island".
Last edited by WPvsMW on Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:55 pm

Sounds like a design flaw to me.
 
coolian2
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:17 pm

zeke wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
It's ~two weeks to ship from Australia....and it's to the West, not the North.


It's 4-5 day sail from the east coast ports to AKL. http://www.australiatrade.com.au/timeta ... aland.html

Can't imagine mustering a road train to those ports in <1 week though. So ~2 weeks for an idea that won't work anyway.
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seat55a
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:20 am

coolian2 wrote:
zeke wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
It's ~two weeks to ship from Australia....and it's to the West, not the North.


It's 4-5 day sail from the east coast ports to AKL. http://www.australiatrade.com.au/timeta ... aland.html

Can't imagine mustering a road train to those ports in <1 week though. So ~2 weeks for an idea that won't work anyway.

Add a week for inbound ag inspection (spiders and snakes) :D
More seriously, where in OZ do that many tanker road trains operate? Does Jet A come to Alice by road?

I'd be very surprised if they have enough spare ones to make a dent (even supposing the NZ roads could take them).
 
DavidJ08
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:35 am

BREECH wrote:
Oh, I understand all difficulties. And the fact that it should be hundreds of truck loads. But it looks like it's worth the effort. Ferry a few (hundred) road trains by sea from that big island in the North, clean them, decon them and restart your airport operations. It's not too simple, but it's not rockets science, either. With quick planning it could be done overnight, really. I understand all the difficulties, but they fade in comparison with what looks like cutting your country from the entire world due to fuel shortages.

Unfortunately road trains aren't much good on our roads - here's a map of the road route for context http://www.google.co.nz/maps/dir/Refini ... land+2022/ and it's a twisty bendy 2+ hour journey.

In any case, they're now working on a plan for shipping jet fuel into Auckland's Wynyard Wharf and trucking it from there to the airport on a 30-40min drive, with NZTA issuing overweight permits and traffic lights being synchronised to give tankers a clean run. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/969833 ... nd-airport

The disruptions are significant, but we are far from cut off - so far cancellations mainly affect domestic and trans-Tasman (i.e. short-haul to the big island in the west) flights as airlines consolidate loads to save fuel; despite the inconvenience of making fuelling stops, the long-haul carriers are very much still flying here. Besides, the rest of the country is still fully operational, with the usual long haul flights out of CHC (SQ to SIN, EK to SYD and DXB, CZ to CAN) and WLG (SQ to CBR and SIN), plus the usual contingent of trans-Tasman flights.

On a side note, it's interesting to see that even NZ175 to PER will include a fuel stop in MEL today. https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-t ... y-shortage
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:08 am

Can a 737-800 do MEL-AKL-MEL on one tank of gas? I'm just trying to ascertain if my flight this weekend might be affected....
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:41 am

Gasman wrote:
Can a 737-800 do MEL-AKL-MEL on one tank of gas? I'm just trying to ascertain if my flight this weekend might be affected....


Nope - well not with passengers. Most 738 services are currently running via WLG.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:02 am

axio wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
You might be surprised by the list of large airports supplied by just one pipeline. Redundancy costs money. How many times in the last twenty years has this pipeline failed?

I wouldn't expect multiple pipelines, I expect alternative options.
I come back to the data-center comparison: I don't expect to have redundant power sources, but I would have a generator in place to handle short/medium term issues, at the very least giving me much more time to figure out a solution (c.f. arranging a fleet of tankers to slow the drain on the stored fuel). Now I understand with an airport we're talking a very different scale of cost, but would it be that different proportionally to the other assets?

If the analysis has been that the risk of failure is so low it's not worth investing in redundancy, does that imply the airport (or fuel providers?) should be partially liable for the costs of disruption?


BREECH wrote:
And two. How hard can it be to deliver fuel by trucks? The fuel line starts somewhere, right? Load it onto trucks, drive, unload. They have some pretty big trucks downunder and an enormous trucking industry. One "road train" will be good for a A380, 3-4 A330s and a whole flock of A320s. Not the most economical solution, but better than facing law suits and penalties for contractual breaches, and "reputational losses".


I'm questioning this myself.

Why no larger fuel farm? Why no backup plan? There are a few airports without fuel farms on site, which get all the fuel by trucks. This works, despite it being not logistically optimised. And these fuel trucks hold a lot of fuel. So why not have a fleet of them ready for such scenarios? Cheaper than a second pipeline or binding a lot of capital in the fuel stored in a fuel farm.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:07 am

CARST wrote:
axio wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
You might be surprised by the list of large airports supplied by just one pipeline. Redundancy costs money. How many times in the last twenty years has this pipeline failed?

I wouldn't expect multiple pipelines, I expect alternative options.
I come back to the data-center comparison: I don't expect to have redundant power sources, but I would have a generator in place to handle short/medium term issues, at the very least giving me much more time to figure out a solution (c.f. arranging a fleet of tankers to slow the drain on the stored fuel). Now I understand with an airport we're talking a very different scale of cost, but would it be that different proportionally to the other assets?

If the analysis has been that the risk of failure is so low it's not worth investing in redundancy, does that imply the airport (or fuel providers?) should be partially liable for the costs of disruption?


BREECH wrote:
And two. How hard can it be to deliver fuel by trucks? The fuel line starts somewhere, right? Load it onto trucks, drive, unload. They have some pretty big trucks downunder and an enormous trucking industry. One "road train" will be good for a A380, 3-4 A330s and a whole flock of A320s. Not the most economical solution, but better than facing law suits and penalties for contractual breaches, and "reputational losses".


I'm questioning this myself.

Why no larger fuel farm? Why no backup plan? There are a few airports without fuel farms on site, which get all the fuel by trucks. This works, despite it being not logistically optimised. And these fuel trucks hold a lot of fuel. So why not have a fleet of them ready for such scenarios? Cheaper than a second pipeline or binding a lot of capital in the fuel stored in a fuel farm.

I suspect the Brynderwyn Range is a limiting factor in how easy it will be to get the necessary fleet of trucks from Marsden Poont to places south. I believe you will find as mentioned by someone else that an option involving shipping will be the better one practically. As to why no back up? My understanding is the analysis was this was a once in a hundred years possibility - it may simply not make sense to invest the money needed for a once in a hundred years eventuality.

V/F
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:18 am

I just got home from Wellington, came up on NZ432. We were slightly delayed on the ground in Wellington for refuelling - it was probably 5 minutes after everyone was on board and seated that refuelling ended.

I'm going to Wellington again next week, then going to Melbourne then next day. The two trips were booked separately, so I have a 4 hour connection in Auckland; hopefully disruptions don't cause dramas. I'm tempted to contact Air NZ and volunteer to be shifted on to a Melbourne- Wellington flight if it helps the situation out at all.

V/F
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:49 am

Air New Zealand has started restricting ticket sales including sales on some international services

Air New Zealand has taken the extraordinary step of restricting ticket sales, including halting sales of some international services.
In a bid to help customers which are facing disruption from the cancelled flights, Air New Zealand said it was taking the "unusual step of restricting ticket sales". 
Sales of some international flights have been stopped altogether. A spokeswoman said the airline had closed sales for new bookings to all long haul and Pacific Island destinations for travel through until Sunday and all trans-Tasman services for travel tomorrow and Thursday.


A NZ 777 position to WLG to take on fuel and position back to AKL

Air New Zealand said it was flying long haul planes to the capital purely to refuel, as the airline struggles to cope with the Auckland jet fuel crisis.
On Tuesday evening the airline said in a statement that a Boeing 777-200 would fly to Wellington with only the pilots on board.
It will fill up with fuel, then return to Auckland, in preparations for further long haul operations.


NZ is currently not meeting the target of 30% less of its normal fuel intake

Airlines have been asked to cut the amount of jet fuel drawn from Auckland Airport to 30 per cent of normal uptake.
On Monday evening Air New Zealand said it was not hitting the target, forcing more flights to be cancelled.


The fuel problem is broadening as fuel supplies in the Pacific are see a depletion in fuel reserves

Tuesday's update shows the problems are broadening, with stopovers in the Pacific depleting supplies there.
Air New Zealand chief operations integrity & standards officer Captain David Morgan said the added step was to accommodate declining supplies in the Pacific.
"On that basis we are switching to a different mode of operation whereby Wellington, supplemented by Australia and those Pacific destinations able to support fuel uplifts, will be used to source the extra fuel required to maintain scheduled services."


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/970095 ... t.97009580
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:04 am

NZ updated travel alert

Cancellations for Wednesday

NZ413 Auckland to Wellington
NZ420 Wellington to Auckland 
NZ433 Auckland to Wellington
NZ440 Wellington to Auckland 
NZ441 Auckland to Wellington 
NZ412 Wellington to  Auckland
NZ535 Auckland to Christchurch
NZ546 Christchurch to Auckland
NZ555 Auckland to Christchurch
NZ566 Christchurch to Auckland
NZ617 Auckland to Queenstown
NZ420 Queenstown to Auckland
NZ754 Auckland to Nadi
NZ755 Nadi to Auckland
NZ729 Auckland to Melbourne (affected passengers will receive new flight details shortly)
NZ739 Auckland to Brisbane (affected passengers will receive new flight details shortly)
NZ734 Brisbane to Auckland (affected passengers will receive new flight details shortly)
NZ791 Auckland to Adelaide (affected passengers will receive new flight details shortly)
NZ792 Adelaide to Auckland (affected passengers will receive new flight details shortly)
NZ269 Auckland to Ho Chi Minh (affected passengers will receive new flight details shortly)
NZ269 Ho Chi Minh to Auckland (affected passengers will receive new flight details shortly)

Tuesday Refuel stops

NZ99 Auckland to Narita - Refuel in Brisbane
NZ175 Auckland to Perth - Refuel in Melbourne 
NZ87 Auckland to Hong Kong - Refuel in Brisbane 
NZ245 Auckland to Denpasar - Refuel in Brisbane 
NZ6 Auckland to Los Angeles - Refuel in Nadi
NZ8 Auckland to San Francisco - Refuel in Nadi
NZ24 Auckland to Vancouver - Refuel in Noumea

https://www.airnewzealand.com.au/travel ... 6G6vA7Qy5p
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CARST
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:06 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
As to why no back up? My understanding is the analysis was this was a once in a hundred years possibility - it may simply not make sense to invest the money needed for a once in a hundred years eventuality.

V/F


But destroying a pipeline with a digger ain't no "once in a hundred years possibility". I don't want to give an exact number, but underground electrical lines, phone and internet cables and other tubes (sewage, pipelines, etc.) are destroyed every day thousands of time on this planet.

Living in Germany, I'd argue most things are done here with a lot of planning, and no one is digging here without knowing what is underground. And still, such occurences happen every day. My company had it's electrical main supply and the phone line destroyed twice in five years. The drivers of these machines usually are braindead idiots. Not all of them, but a lot of them. So once such a glowing example of the human race is at the controls, all the planning goes over board.

What we learn from this? No lines/pipes/whatever running underground are save. You NEED a backup.
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:17 am

CARST wrote:
But destroying a pipeline with a digger ain't no "once in a hundred years possibility". I don't want to give an exact number, but underground electrical lines, phone and internet cables and other tubes (sewage, pipelines, etc.) are destroyed every day thousands of time on this planet.

Living in Germany, I'd argue most things are done here with a lot of planning, and no one is digging here without knowing what is underground. And still, such occurences happen every day. My company had it's electrical main supply and the phone line destroyed twice in five years. The drivers of these machines usually are braindead idiots. Not all of them, but a lot of them. So once such a glowing example of the human race is at the controls, all the planning goes over board.

What we learn from this? No lines/pipes/whatever running underground are save. You NEED a backup.


Typically most things don't change in New Zealand, until something goes wrong
 
aerokiwi
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:46 am

zkncj wrote:
CARST wrote:
But destroying a pipeline with a digger ain't no "once in a hundred years possibility". I don't want to give an exact number, but underground electrical lines, phone and internet cables and other tubes (sewage, pipelines, etc.) are destroyed every day thousands of time on this planet.

Living in Germany, I'd argue most things are done here with a lot of planning, and no one is digging here without knowing what is underground. And still, such occurences happen every day. My company had it's electrical main supply and the phone line destroyed twice in five years. The drivers of these machines usually are braindead idiots. Not all of them, but a lot of them. So once such a glowing example of the human race is at the controls, all the planning goes over board.

What we learn from this? No lines/pipes/whatever running underground are save. You NEED a backup.


Typically most things don't change in New Zealand, until something goes wrong


Before we get too down on ourselves, that's pretty common of just about everywhere.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:43 am

Seems to me this pipeline wasn't properly marked out in general or the company doing the excavating didn't get it marked or done so properly so the excavator operator got too close and hit it. Fortunately this break didn't cause a fire or kill anyone, but it has caused a major hassle for airport ops and likely some local environmental damage. Probably the operator of the excavator will have far too little insurance of bonding for the project to even come close to the millions in damages the local and national government will have to pay out to fix and clean it out, along with lost revenues to the airport authority due to insufficient fuel supplies. What if such an event happened at someplace like JFK or LHR, that would really be bad.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:50 am

I would consider how many decades this process has worked perfectly fine. The cost of either creating a fuel farm that could handle a fortnight of no topping up or duplicating the pipe is going to be huge. Then the maintenance on top of that. As irritating as the disruption is I think the better option is putting more effort in monitoring the pipe and the path it takes.

The thing that surprises me is how was this not detected earlier. From what has been made public this wasn't caused by a digger cutting right into the pipe. But rather a bump/scrape that over time rusted through the pipe wall creating the leak. Surely there are montoring devices in PIGs that can detect such degredation.

Another backup option to consider is using rail tankers to move fuel. This would require investment to extend rail lines and the cost to store and maintain the tanks as they might be used once every 50 years.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:12 am

Rail service to a major international airport... novel idea. Might work for passengers, too.
 
luftaom
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:16 am

Don't forget that the rail lines to Sydney and Brisbane airports both promptly went broke after they opened.
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ZKSUJ
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:20 am

I can imagine the infrastructure planners here in NZ.
Person 1: "we should have a plan B in case plan A fails"
Person 2: "we think positively here in NZ, its thinking about the glass being half full. No need for plan B, thats negativethoughts and energy"
Person 1: "yea bro fair enough"
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:28 am

seat55a wrote:
coolian2 wrote:
[
More seriously, where in OZ do that many tanker road trains operate? Does Jet A come to Alice by road?

I'd be very surprised if they have enough spare ones to make a dent (even supposing the NZ roads could take them).


Most Australian airports air supplied by truck. There is also a number of B double road tankers in NZ already. It would take longer to load/unload a truck than it would take to drive.
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ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:43 am

ZKSUJ wrote:
I can imagine the infrastructure planners here in NZ.
Person 1: "we should have a plan B in case plan A fails"
Person 2: "we think positively here in NZ, its thinking about the glass being half full. No need for plan B, thats negativethoughts and energy"
Person 1: "yea bro fair enough"


Bollocks. This is not a particular failing of NZ. Every country I've been to the people complain that somehow they're the worst when it comes to infrastructure planning.

As mentioned earlier in this thread it's a common thing aronud the world.

In a risk register this occurance would be way in the corner of unlikely to happen or rare but with massive consequence. Often those issues are either ignored or accepted that the consequence while large is temporary while the issue is fixed.

WPvsMW wrote:
Rail service to a major international airport... novel idea. Might work for passengers, too.


As nice as the idea is there's loads of issues that would have to be solved for that to work.

In this case you'd also be running into a problem of sharing freight and passenger traffic. And for hazmat like fuel you want to minimize such sharing. So any such fuel freight would go via a dedicated line.

And even then you'd have to deal with the problem of sending large amounts of fuel through urban and residential areas. As we know from Canada and the US this can be a problem.
 
DavidJ08
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:49 am

CARST wrote:
Why no larger fuel farm? Why no backup plan? There are a few airports without fuel farms on site, which get all the fuel by trucks. This works, despite it being not logistically optimised. And these fuel trucks hold a lot of fuel. So why not have a fleet of them ready for such scenarios? Cheaper than a second pipeline or binding a lot of capital in the fuel stored in a fuel farm.

Actually it's not that practical - unlike Australia, our roads in New Zealand are narrow and twisty, travelling through largely mountainous terrain, crossing many old bridges with limitations; as a result we don't have very big trucks (a truck-trailer combination has a maximum combined weight of 44 tonne generally - with exceptions) and certainly no road trains, which is an Australian thing - and as we Kiwis like to point out, we are not Australia :P

The refinery (which feeds this pipeline) is 2-2.5hrs drive away, which means 5 hours roundtrip - and that's not counting loading and unloading time. There are some 20 long-haul flights out of Auckland each day, each one needing up to 8 of our tanker trucks worth of fuel (as seen halfway through this article https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/969677 ... l-continue ), and with each tanker able to do at most 4 round trips in 24 hours, there would need to be quite a significant fleet of tankers, far more than they were willing to invest in a supposed "once in 100 years" event. In this regard, having a ship bring the fuel to Wynyard Wharf in central Auckland then trucking fuel from there (30ish minutes drive) would be a much more practical solution.

Practicality aside, I would agree that there should have been a backup plan - even just an action plan that is thought out ahead of time that could be launched as soon as the extent of the damage was known (as opposed to just now "seeing if they can" ship the fuel into central Auckland, source https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/969833 ... nd-airport )

Be interesting to watch the fallout - especially being the week leading up to the New Zealand general election...
 
NZ321
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:53 am

Well I'd be very curious to know what impact this will have on airline costs and for how long it will go on and who ultimately will pick up the tab. With Pacific nations also running low then this surely further complicates things.

I don't understand the text above "Air NZ is currently not meeting its target of 30% less of its normal fuel intake"

Please can someone enlighten me?
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ZKSUJ
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:10 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
ZKSUJ wrote:
I can imagine the infrastructure planners here in NZ.
Person 1: "we should have a plan B in case plan A fails"
Person 2: "we think positively here in NZ, its thinking about the glass being half full. No need for plan B, thats negativethoughts and energy"
Person 1: "yea bro fair enough"


Bollocks. This is not a particular failing of NZ. Every country I've been to the people complain that somehow they're the worst when it comes to infrastructure planning.

As mentioned earlier in this thread it's a common thing aronud the world.

In a risk register this occurance would be way in the corner of unlikely to happen or rare but with massive consequence. Often those issues are either ignored or accepted that the consequence while large is temporary while the issue is fixed.

WPvsMW wrote:
Rail service to a major international airport... novel idea. Might work for passengers, too.


As nice as the idea is there's loads of issues that would have to be solved for that to work.

In this case you'd also be running into a problem of sharing freight and passenger traffic. And for hazmat like fuel you want to minimize such sharing. So any such fuel freight would go via a dedicated line.

And even then you'd have to deal with the problem of sending large amounts of fuel through urban and residential areas. As we know from Canada and the US this can be a problem.


It was tongue in cheek, thought it was self explainatory. Obviously didn't happen in real life
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:21 am

Tuesday Refuel stops

NZ99 Auckland to Narita - Refuel in Brisbane
NZ175 Auckland to Perth - Refuel in Melbourne
NZ87 Auckland to Hong Kong - Refuel in Brisbane
NZ245 Auckland to Denpasar - Refuel in Brisbane
NZ6 Auckland to Los Angeles - Refuel in Nadi
NZ8 Auckland to San Francisco - Refuel in Nadi
NZ24 Auckland to Vancouver - Refuel in Noumea


Plus the Shanghai flight tonight is stopping in BNE, I have bumped into two biz associates who are on it here, My SG flight luckily is still "non-stop" :-)
 
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Re: Auckland Airport Fuel Shortage - Resulting in diversions and cancellations

Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:24 am

NZ321 wrote:
Well I'd be very curious to know what impact this will have on airline costs and for how long it will go on and who ultimately will pick up the tab. With Pacific nations also running low then this surely further complicates things.

I don't understand the text above "Air NZ is currently not meeting its target of 30% less of its normal fuel intake"

Please can someone enlighten me?


Actually I should have said 30% of rather than 30% less meaning all airlines out of AKL are being asked to take on two thirds less fuel than they normally would.

Mobil Oil, BP and Z Energy have asked airlines to reduce their fuel consumption to 30 per cent of their normal level while Refining NZ repairs a broken pipeline that pipes jet fuel to the airport.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/970095 ... t.97009580
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