I wonder what happen to those two guys with the smart political mark. Like to point out, we all on this forum enjoy the same passion, whether we work in aviation or travel daily etc. Enjoyment of working in such field or traveling, is meeting new culture people, and exchanging differences respectfully, and learning from one another. Being involved in such hobby lets us remind that we are more open minded people, than other folks. Thanks for those who respected this thread, look at the real aspect vs your own political view/agenda aspect.

Ammad wrote:

PIA is operating 4X weekly to YYZ and just twice weekly to JFK. JFK is loss making route for PIA. For N.A. Best thing PIA could do is to extensive code share with TK and start daily flight one each from KHI, ISB, and LHE to IST with onward connection via TK metal.

Actually make sense, not bad idea. I think in the past PIA, code share flights to IST on TK. I am surpise PIA doesn't fly to IST, at all with all the Turkish business in Pakistan etc. PIA does something similar with Etihad. They codeshare the flights from PK to AUH then rest of Pax will go on EY to Europe, Canada, Americas, and etc.

I wonder why the Private carriers in Pakistan, haven't done such steps such as code sharing? Or why the have issue developing?

LH658 wrote:

Ammad wrote:

PIA is operating 4X weekly to YYZ and just twice weekly to JFK. JFK is loss making route for PIA. For N.A. Best thing PIA could do is to extensive code share with TK and start daily flight one each from KHI, ISB, and LHE to IST with onward connection via TK metal.

Actually make sense, not bad idea. I think in the past PIA, code share flights to IST on TK. I am surpise PIA doesn't fly to IST, at all with all the Turkish business in Pakistan etc. PIA does something similar with Etihad. They codeshare the flights from PK to AUH then rest of Pax will go on EY to Europe, Canada, Americas, and etc.

I wonder why the Private carriers in Pakistan, haven't done such steps such as code sharing? Or why the have issue developing?

Some years ago, PIA and Turkish Airlines had this kind of negotiations, but it caused big issues in Pakistan/within PIA employees. Most didn't want to loose the flights and overnights in Europe/North America.

I guess once the new Airport in Istanbul is operational we will see PK back in Istanbul again.

Ammad wrote:

PIA is operating 4X weekly to YYZ and just twice weekly to JFK. JFK is loss making route for PIA. For N.A. Best thing PIA could do is to extensive code share with TK and start daily flight one each from KHI, ISB, and LHE to IST with onward connection via TK metal.

Well YYZ I think they could hang on to no problem, cause despite the awful service, only nonstops from Canada to Pakistan. It's not like AC will suddenly say "Let's do LHE service from YYZ" or tell the Canadian government "let EK into YYZ daily so we can go daily to DXB", so PK has the YYZ-LHE/ISB/KHI to themselves.

JFK is another story - JFK is saturated with competition from PK, EY, QR, EK, TK, and more recently Saudia and Kuwait Airways - all who offer flights between JFK and Pakistan via a hub.

Plus, PK has no advantage at JFK - they may be nonstop to LHE, but because of U.S. security concerns, they stop in MAN on the way back. And they don't offer nonstops to KHI or ISB either, like they do at YYZ.

In YYZ, PK has the advantage of nonstop both ways, just as AC has the advantage of nonstop both ways to DEL and BOM from YYZ. (Compared to EK who makes you stop in DXB)

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

c933103 wrote:

For China Southern's flight between ISB and URC, who are their main customers?

That I'm not sure. Always thought it'd make more sense for them to do ISB-CAN.

Don't forget that URC is a hub for China Southern. Also as it is the closest major city in China to Pakistan you will get local traders flying over the Himalayas on business.

Another benefit as others pointed out is that crew could turn and burn.

Nice to see a thread on Pakistan for a change.
Could someone enlighten me and explain the difference between Islamabad, Karachi, and Lahore? Which city has more traffic volume, or higher yields, or whether one has a particular geographical advantage over the other? Are there any other 2nd tier cities which might support international service that isn't on the ME3+? Might we see an airline like TK fly to PEW and LYP for example.

directorguy wrote:

Nice to see a thread on Pakistan for a change.
Could someone enlighten me and explain the difference between Islamabad, Karachi, and Lahore? Which city has more traffic volume, or higher yields, or whether one has a particular geographical advantage over the other? Are there any other 2nd tier cities which might support international service that isn't on the ME3+? Might we see an airline like TK fly to PEW and LYP for example.

PK serves some UAE markets from 2nd tier Pakistan cities, such as Gwadar.

PIA will get 2 more 77W by end of this year or early next year

Ammad wrote:

PIA is operating 4X weekly to YYZ and just twice weekly to JFK. JFK is loss making route for PIA. For N.A. Best thing PIA could do is to extensive code share with TK and start daily flight one each from KHI, ISB, and LHE to IST with onward connection via TK metal.

That was a big fiasco last time. Protests by PIA employees at the airport!!

directorguy wrote:

Nice to see a thread on Pakistan for a change.
Could someone enlighten me and explain the difference between Islamabad, Karachi, and Lahore? Which city has more traffic volume, or higher yields, or whether one has a particular geographical advantage over the other? Are there any other 2nd tier cities which might support international service that isn't on the ME3+? Might we see an airline like TK fly to PEW and LYP for example.

PIA operates out of all three ISB, KHI and LHE to it''s International destinations. YYZ flights are a perfect example. And yes all go nonstop to each city.

KHI is the most populous of them all and the Financial centre I would think. Islamabad is the capital city with Embassies and some structure. Lahore is the cultural centre. ISB and PEW are gateways to the North of Pakistan which holds the beauty of majestic mountainous peaks. To the south lies KHI a bustling metropolis and with endless beaches which stretch along the Arabian Sea. LHE with it''s beautiful mosques have all tourism potential just waiting to be tapped into.

The ME3 serve all three with KHI being served 5-6 time's daily by EK. EK also serves other cities in Pakistan with Qatar Airways starting as well.

KHI at one time hosted a number of European carriers, Pan Am and host of Asian ones. Now it is just the ME3 which have the strongest presence, with TK, TG who also happen to fly ISB and LHE.

directorguy wrote:

Nice to see a thread on Pakistan for a change.
Could someone enlighten me and explain the difference between Islamabad, Karachi, and Lahore? Which city has more traffic volume, or higher yields, or whether one has a particular geographical advantage over the other? Are there any other 2nd tier cities which might support international service that isn't on the ME3+? Might we see an airline like TK fly to PEW and LYP for example.

1st tier
Islamabad is the capital of Pakistan, tends have more diplomatic traffic, UN, NGO's, NATO, World Leaders, and etc, also ISB has traffic regular business traffic from companies like Halliburton, from the textile, pharmaceuticals, also big international firms have the offices in Islamabad such as well. Islamabad gets flights from North America, Europe, Middle East, and Asia.

Lahore also receive, traffic for arts/sports, textiles, pharmaceuticals, tech industry, agriculture, automotive and also diplomatic traffic cause Lahore is the capital of Punjab, just like the US State representatives go abroad to bring business in Pakistan does same as well. Lahore also gets religious tourism from the Sikh community, year around multiple events happen in Pakistan, and Sikhs all over the world visit Pakistan to pay there respect to there holy sites. Lahore also get's business for companies like Harbin, Microsoft and GE. Lahore is where the most wealthy intends to live. Lahore gets flights from North America, Europe, Middle East, and Asia. Though in PIA network, Lahore is there biggest international hub, in terms of serving long haul.

Karachi is your largest city, it has the largest port, also Financial capital. Though in Pakistan banking isn't that huge, like Wall street... It's still developing. Most banks are Asian, Middle East, or Pakistani Banks. Use to be a lot more Deutsche Bank, RBS, HSBC, Citi Bank, and etc. Now that is phasing out. Karachi is the capital of Sindh. Karachi also gets traffic of people going into interior Sindh, usually on charter flights/helicopters. For companies such as ENI, Total, Shell, OXY, and etc. Karachi gets flights from North America, Europe, Middle East, and Asia.

Peshawar is capital of the Khyber area. Peshawar is about hour away from the Afghan border. Peshawar serve as check dry port in out of for Afghanistan for NATO/UN/foreign nation supplies. Peshawar is the most developed city in the Western Frontier. Peshawar get's flights from Middle East and Pakistan.

2nd tier

Multan: Multan is the "capital" of Southern Punjab. Multan is and agriculture city, serve city around it such as Sahiwal, Dera Ghazi Khan, Bahawalpur. and etc. Multan has famous set up with Total, called PARCO. Multan receives flights from SAUDIA, Gulf Air, PIA, Fly Dubai, EK, QR, Shaheen Air, Air Blue, Taban Air, and Air Arabia. Multan right now has Pakistan most modern airport, its hard to believe, but true.

Sialkot: Just north of Lahore, Sialkot is surrounded by 2 other smaller cities. These 3 cities share one airport, which the airport is a private airport, and is privately owned. Now Gulf Air, Air Arabia, Fly Dubai, Emirates, Qatar Airways, PIA, Serene Air, Air Blue, and Shaheen Air fly in out. Sialkot area is famous for making sporting goods, textiles, agriculture, pharmaceuticals, Leather products, and etc.

Faisalabad: Faisalabad is known for Agriculture. Romania and Turkey have honorary Consulates there. LYP host flights to Middle East,carriers such as Gulf Air, Qatar Airways, Fly Dubai and Air Arabia.

Quetta: Is another far west City near Iran and Afghanistan. With flights from Fly Dubai and Air Arabia.

Gwadar: Gwadar use to be part of Oman, until 1958. Gwadar is a port city near the Iranian Border. Gwadar is suppose to turn into hustling bustling port city. With China involved developing the China Pakistan Economic Corridor, with nations like Russia, UK,Turkmenistan, and other countries supporting it. Currently the port is in use, they are developing LNG terminals etc. Basically Chinese want to avoid Southeast Asia.So why not use Gwadar as it really close to the Middle East send the cargo, oil, and other goods up from Pakistan by rail or trucks. Distribute supplies to Afghanistan, rest of Pakistan, Interior China, Central Asian countries, and etc. Gwadar also have pipelines coming from Afghanistan and Central Asian countries, also has a tax free zone. Gwadar has flights too Middle East from PIA.

Other 2nd tier cities in Pakistan, but story same just agriculture business maybe few energy projects..

I have some friends who work at QR in Pakistan, say there best destinations are Lahore and Islamabad in terms of both traffic and cargo for Pakistan.

If Pakistan develops more, or markets keep growing, diversifying. We can probably see Saudia for tapping into these 2nd tier cities as they did with Multan. Or we can see Turkish expanding as well. I wouldn't be surprise if Malindo Air expands there presences, or if Malaysia Airlines, or Garuda starts Pakistan again or any LCC in Asia, due to the connections, just here those countries being friendly to Muslim tourists. I also hope to see the private carriers expand in Pakistan. Hopefully the new Islamabad airport is suppose to be the new power house hub and HQ for all 3 Pakistani carriers, hopefully foreign carriers increase there presence as Pakistan has new facility.

I personally would hope that when the new Islamabad airport is built, Pakistan wakes up and realizes they need better airports if they want to at least be on par with airports in the South Asian region. I'd say Pakistani airports are awful in general, and fixing KHI and LHE's airports should be next after ISB is finished.

Wonderful analysis LH658;

Between after many years PIA resume service to Bangkok.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/pk890

Thanks for all the well informed replies.
I remember hearing people who flew from places in Europe, the Middle East and the Gulf onwards to Asia, sometimes with a night stop in KHI or LHE . Not sure if PK was dry back then. PK had a lot of weight back in the 1980s and helped EK launch operations. Would be interesting if the Pakistani govt can deliver a world class hub in ISB and maybe KHI. It is a shame Lahore is underdeveloped as a tourism destination, as everyone ends up going to Delhi/Rajasthan but rarely combine it with Lahore due to visa/travel issues.

directorguy wrote:

Thanks for all the well informed replies.
I remember hearing people who flew from places in Europe, the Middle East and the Gulf onwards to Asia, sometimes with a night stop in KHI or LHE . Not sure if PK was dry back then. PK had a lot of weight back in the 1980s and helped EK launch operations. Would be interesting if the Pakistani govt can deliver a world class hub in ISB and maybe KHI. It is a shame Lahore is underdeveloped as a tourism destination, as everyone ends up going to Delhi/Rajasthan but rarely combine it with Lahore due to visa/travel issues.

Pakistan became fully dry in the 80s. Before the 80s, it definitely had a very different air to it (especially Karachi). Karachi has always been the most diverse city in Pakistan (it still is) but that diversity used to translate to a more liberal and cosmopolitan vibe to the city. But Pakistani cities as a whole were all more open and secular in the 70s. And Karachi had none of the violence that it has today. Back in the day you still had clubs, theaters, open beaches, and plenty of alcohol. Stanley Ho (who owns several casinos in Macau) was even in the middle of building one of the world's largest casinos in Karachi before the government started implementing religious laws. Pakistan's tourism pretty much dried up over the course of a year or two. And it hasn't recovered since.

directorguy wrote:

Thanks for all the well informed replies.
I remember hearing people who flew from places in Europe, the Middle East and the Gulf onwards to Asia, sometimes with a night stop in KHI or LHE . Not sure if PK was dry back then. PK had a lot of weight back in the 1980s and helped EK launch operations. Would be interesting if the Pakistani govt can deliver a world class hub in ISB and maybe KHI. It is a shame Lahore is underdeveloped as a tourism destination, as everyone ends up going to Delhi/Rajasthan but rarely combine it with Lahore due to visa/travel issues.

The whole Pakistan is filled with Tourism, just not being take care of, unfortunately. Sikhs that come several times a year for there religious celebrations can bring in more money, if the Pakistani Government develops more infrastructure..

klakzky123 wrote:

directorguy wrote:

Thanks for all the well informed replies.
I remember hearing people who flew from places in Europe, the Middle East and the Gulf onwards to Asia, sometimes with a night stop in KHI or LHE . Not sure if PK was dry back then. PK had a lot of weight back in the 1980s and helped EK launch operations. Would be interesting if the Pakistani govt can deliver a world class hub in ISB and maybe KHI. It is a shame Lahore is underdeveloped as a tourism destination, as everyone ends up going to Delhi/Rajasthan but rarely combine it with Lahore due to visa/travel issues.

Pakistan became fully dry in the 80s. Before the 80s, it definitely had a very different air to it (especially Karachi). Karachi has always been the most diverse city in Pakistan (it still is) but that diversity used to translate to a more liberal and cosmopolitan vibe to the city. But Pakistani cities as a whole were all more open and secular in the 70s. And Karachi had none of the violence that it has today. Back in the day you still had clubs, theaters, open beaches, and plenty of alcohol. Stanley Ho (who owns several casinos in Macau) was even in the middle of building one of the world's largest casinos in Karachi before the government started implementing religious laws. Pakistan's tourism pretty much dried up over the course of a year or two. And it hasn't recovered since.

It's a shame that Pakistani gov sabotaged themselves - but hey, this isn't a political forum, this is an aviation forum. So let's keep the topics on politics limited to when they are related to the industry we are talking about.

Alot of people are suggesting that PK should become a feeder to TK or EY, but I actually think they could start codesharing with local airlines at destinations they serve and timing the flights better. That would make a huge difference.

If PK codeshared with BA out of LHR for example, that'd be 20+ (almost 30) U.S. destinations that PK could serve via LHR, versus only 5 EY offers via AUH (used to be 6 til EY dropped SFO).

If PK codeshared with BA out of LHR for example, that'd be 20+ (almost 30) U.S. destinations that PK could serve via LHR, versus only 5 EY offers via AUH (used to be 6 til EY dropped SFO).[/quote]


The issue i see is, Does BA want too? Cause I am sure BA want to code share with airlines that can atleast match or be kinda close to there standard of product. So there loyal fliers won't be fooled. When you fly code share flight your technically flying another airline as well. Though for Pakistan maybe BA won't care... Though not bad idea to code share with BA, as London is place lot of Pakistani travel too, and for BA it will be win to bring those Pakistani to other cities in there Network.

I don't think BA would want to. But in an ideal world:

BA/PK would codeshare out of LHR
AC/PK would codeshare out of YYZ
AA/PK would codeshare out of JFK

I think AA has something signed with PK, Don't quote me though.

Any website to get PAX data about Pakistani airports?

Why is it hard for the Private carriers to expand?

Cathay was the best airline that served KHI in recent times and they were doing well.
With an expanding middle class more Pakistanis are traveling. Lets hope the new Islamabad airport attracts some new traffic.

LH658 wrote:

I think AA has something signed with PK, Don't quote me though.

The news within AA is that a daily direct flight to ISB will be announced in the last week of November.

BrooklyBOMgal wrote:

LH658 wrote:

I think AA has something signed with PK, Don't quote me though.

The news within AA is that a daily direct flight to ISB will be announced in the last week of November.

Oh wow, that would be very surprising (and good!) news if true.

lalib wrote:

Cathay was the best airline that served KHI in recent times and they were doing well.
With an expanding middle class more Pakistanis are traveling. Lets hope the new Islamabad airport attracts some new traffic.

The ease of obtaining a visa by Pakistani passport holders in another factor in considering how well a route does. There is a large middle class, and a very wealthy upper class, that is very well and able to travel.

BrooklyBOMgal wrote:

LH658 wrote:

I think AA has something signed with PK, Don't quote me though.

The news within AA is that a daily direct flight to ISB will be announced in the last week of November.

Really? I can expect BA returning to ISB, but touching down AA is difficult to believe.

Has PIA decided between the 787 and A350 for future longhaul flights? How many would they need? Their 777 fleet is relatively young so not a pressing need

Ammad wrote:

BrooklyBOMgal wrote:

LH658 wrote:

I think AA has something signed with PK, Don't quote me though.

The news within AA is that a daily direct flight to ISB will be announced in the last week of November.

Really? I can expect BA returning to ISB, but touching down AA is difficult to believe.

Maybe he meant BA, I meant to say I think PIA signed something with AA at JFK on regarding transferring PAX to other North American cities, don't quote me though.

lalib wrote:

Cathay was the best airline that served KHI in recent times and they were doing well.
With an expanding middle class more Pakistanis are traveling. Lets hope the new Islamabad airport attracts some new traffic.

I think Thai does better, lot of PAX including my co workers use Thai to get the China and other parts of Asia from Pakistan.

LH658 wrote:

Ammad wrote:

BrooklyBOMgal wrote:

The news within AA is that a daily direct flight to ISB will be announced in the last week of November.

Really? I can expect BA returning to ISB, but touching down AA is difficult to believe.

Maybe he meant BA, I meant to say I think PIA signed something with AA at JFK on regarding transferring PAX to other North American cities, don't quote me though.

I think it is simple interlining agreement. PIA do operate just two weekly flight to JFK and only 30 to 40 pax per flight flew further.

United had that agreement with PIA before. It is pretty basic passenger transfer or interlining agreement.

Yes AA and PK interline out of JFK. AA brings the passengers to JFK, PK then brings passengers nonstop to LHE.

I'd like to see PK and AA do a full fledged codeshare out of both JFK and MAN.

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

Yes AA and PK interline out of JFK. AA brings the passengers to JFK, PK then brings passengers nonstop to LHE.

I'd like to see PK and AA do a full fledged codeshare out of both JFK and MAN.

MAN would be pointless, as AA only has 2 flights JFK and PHL i think. Would make more sense from LHR with AA or BA, or even TK out of IST.

Does anybody see any more growth between, Pakistan and China destination? Lahore only has Beijing from PIA and CAN from Shaheen Air. ISB and KHI receives CA, ISB also has China Southern.

I feel like with so much Chinese development there would more flights from other cities etc or frequencies.

LH658 wrote:

lalib wrote:

Cathay was the best airline that served KHI in recent times and they were doing well.
With an expanding middle class more Pakistanis are traveling. Lets hope the new Islamabad airport attracts some new traffic.

I think Thai does better, lot of PAX including my co workers use Thai to get the China and other parts of Asia from Pakistan.

Cathay now no longer flies to Pakistan.Only Thai flies.
Many budget airlines such as Air Asia must try either LHE or ISB from Kuala Lumpur

adi00654 wrote:

LH658 wrote:

lalib wrote:

Cathay was the best airline that served KHI in recent times and they were doing well.
With an expanding middle class more Pakistanis are traveling. Lets hope the new Islamabad airport attracts some new traffic.

I think Thai does better, lot of PAX including my co workers use Thai to get the China and other parts of Asia from Pakistan.

Cathay now no longer flies to Pakistan.Only Thai flies.
Many budget airlines such as Air Asia must try either LHE or ISB from Kuala Lumpur

Yeah CX pulled out during 2015 I think, due to Karachi airport attack. I was in Karachi not too long ago, and CX still has there Office building signs up, but the inside is empty lol. Idk why hasn't Garuda or Malaysia Airline, or any other Asian LCC hasn't attempted PK. Thai getting all the fun. Malindo Air started and is doing well.

LH658 wrote:

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

Yes AA and PK interline out of JFK. AA brings the passengers to JFK, PK then brings passengers nonstop to LHE.

I'd like to see PK and AA do a full fledged codeshare out of both JFK and MAN.

MAN would be pointless, as AA only has 2 flights JFK and PHL i think. Would make more sense from LHR with AA or BA, or even TK out of IST.

Does anybody see any more growth between, Pakistan and China destination? Lahore only has Beijing from PIA and CAN from Shaheen Air. ISB and KHI receives CA, ISB also has China Southern.

I feel like with so much Chinese development there would more flights from other cities etc or frequencies.

MAN has ORD service seasonally as well from AA.

Anyways, whats the status on ISB new airport?

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

Anyways, whats the status on ISB new airport?

Islamabad International Airport To Be Inaugurated In December 2017 Instead Of August

https://www.samaa.tv/sports/2017/01/uk- ... -pakistan/

This was article earlier this year. I really do hope, it's under consideration.

Ammad wrote:

TryToFlySomeday wrote:

Anyways, whats the status on ISB new airport?

Islamabad International Airport To Be Inaugurated In December 2017 Instead Of August

Such a long delay. The current airport is a disaster.

Norwegia has shown interest in serving 3 main gateway cities in Pakistan with 737max.

What about AirAsiaX, Scoot, Batik/Lion Air, Cathay Dragon? is there potential?

CanadaFair wrote:

Norwegia has shown interest in serving 3 main gateway cities in Pakistan with 737max.

What about AirAsiaX, Scoot, Batik/Lion Air, Cathay Dragon? is there potential?

Whats the source on Norwegian?

It was mentioned in their expansion possibilities in an article.

CanadaFair wrote:

It was mentioned in their expansion possibilities in an article.

Do you have a link to the article?

No, didn't have any details just named some Indian and Pakistani cities being looked at as a possibility with MAX..

Until theres a source with more details I doubt Norwegian would touch Pakistan. I dont think they even fly to India or Bangladesh.

The best we can hope for is that BA comes to ISB with a 788 or 789 when the new airport opens. (If!)

Iran's Kish Air launched once weekly service to Islamabad last week.from Tehran an A321 was used, aviationiran source, in July Mahan resumed Lahore.

CanadaFair wrote:

Iran's Kish Air launched once weekly service to Islamabad last week.from Tehran an A321 was used, aviationiran source, in July Mahan resumed Lahore.

These Iranian carriers, always on and off. I wonder if Pakistani need visa to transit in Iran?

LH658 wrote:

CanadaFair wrote:

Iran's Kish Air launched once weekly service to Islamabad last week.from Tehran an A321 was used, aviationiran source, in July Mahan resumed Lahore.

These Iranian carriers, always on and off. I wonder if Pakistani need visa to transit in Iran?

According to my aunt and uncle, Pakistanis need visa to go to anywhere except a few select countries such as Afghanistan.

As for transit thats a different story. Transit visas are automatically given to those flying QR/EY/EK