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Gonzalo
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EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:21 pm

Good morning everybody. If someone has any aditional info to share about this... looks pretty serious.


http://avherald.com/h?article=4ae84b8a&opt=0

Thanks in advance
Last edited by atcsundevil on Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title edited for clarity
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Aesma
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:50 pm

Glidescope
Pull up !
Terrain ahead
Pull up !

I'm glad I don't have any flight scheduled on EK.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Jayafe
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:59 pm

Aesma wrote:
I'm glad I don't have any flight scheduled on EK.


Paranoia, hate, or just over reaction drama?
 
727200
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:03 pm

Someone gonna get some time off to think bout this.
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:09 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm glad I don't have any flight scheduled on EK.


Paranoia, hate, or just over reaction drama?


My humble opinion, not paranoia, not drama, not overreaction, just natural worries about a serious
Incident with one of the biggest passenger aircraft in service. The METAR published says condition
was CAVOK... this incident could ended much worse with low vis...let's hope we can read something in the future with the findings of the aviation authorities...
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
tommy1808
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:13 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm glad I don't have any flight scheduled on EK.


Paranoia, hate, or just over reaction drama?


In all fairness, if they had an appropriate sink rate for a 3° slope, they would have been less than 20 seconds away from a CFIT.

If I am not mistaked, that far from the runway 400 feet obstacles would have been ok.

While probably not an indication for any systematic problem, this does deserve some drama.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
ExDubai
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:14 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
Good morning everybody. If someone has any aditional info to share about this... looks pretty serious.


http://avherald.com/h?article=4ae84b8a&opt=0

Thanks in advance

Looks like they really screwed up....
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:22 pm

Why would ATC not have noticed this..? They should have gotten an MSAW alert. At the very least the controller should have noticed the aircraft descending well below the approach.
 
flymia
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:28 pm

While concerning, things happen. An Air Canada crew almost landed on top of a 787 sitting on a taxi way. I will still fly Air Canada. The good thing is the crew noticed the mistake and took action.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:32 pm

Looks like two go-arounds after one another.. is there a possibility this could be blamed on something other than the crew?
 
ExDubai
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:52 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Looks like two go-arounds after one another.. is there a possibility this could be blamed on something other than the crew?

If you ask the Muppets on the 3rd. floor, nope....... Would be interesting to see the crews roster of the last weeks.
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
 
KingOrGod
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:54 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Why would ATC not have noticed this..? They should have gotten an MSAW alert. At the very least the controller should have noticed the aircraft descending well below the approach.


Depends on their radar system capability. But MSAW capable or not, the approach controller him/herself should have noticed the poor approach profile and warned/intervened.

And that begs the question as to what the crew were doing this low on an instrument approach... I'd like to hear what briefing they carried out, and what checks were done on the descent and approach til that point. As my friend who is a 777 training captain says, "sitting there fat, dumb, and happy". Not my words but his. But this shows the importance of LOFT sessions and unusual situation training. To pick stuff up before the alarm bells start ringing.

Not scaremongering but it's the same as Air Canada, crashed short of the threshold because they don't cross reference threshold distance/altitude. Dial in a descent angle and forget about it, not realising the limitations of the system, that wind shear layers may push an aircraft above or below the desired angle, and adjusts to recover that descent angle, not the actual profile.

Will be interesting to see what the report says in a few years...
 
KEWR2014
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:58 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Why would ATC not have noticed this..? They should have gotten an MSAW alert. At the very least the controller should have noticed the aircraft descending well below the approach.


I'm not too sure about the terminal environment but in an enroute environment, the MSAW alert is auto-suppressed within a certain range around an airport. Also, we'll often lose radar contact below a certain altitude depending on the radar coverage.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:16 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Looks like two go-arounds after one another.. is there a possibility this could be blamed on something other than the crew?


Yes it is possible that the approach or the navigation database had a problem. Two consecutive go arounds to me implies that there was a problem with the route plotted by the flight management computer. I have seen issues on other planes where the flight management computer does not correctly plot the path between the waypoints when loading an approach.

I don't know if Moscow has an unusual or unconventional approach. It could have been an error in the nav database. I don't know if anyone else is flying A380s into Moscow. There could have been a problem with how the database and airplanes flight management computers interpret the approach. 400 AGL is awfully late to catch such a problem

For those who don't know how nav databases work, here is a good handbook from the FAA

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... pter_6.pdf
 
Sooner787
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:20 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
Looks like two go-arounds after one another.. is there a possibility this could be blamed on something other than the crew?


Suppose it's possible, or a fatigued crew .

I'm sure the black boxes will tell the story
 
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OA940
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:23 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm glad I don't have any flight scheduled on EK.


Paranoia, hate, or just over reaction drama?


My humble opinion, not paranoia, not drama, not overreaction, just natural worries about a serious
Incident with one of the biggest passenger aircraft in service. The METAR published says condition
was CAVOK... this incident could ended much worse with low vis...let's hope we can read something in the future with the findings of the aviation authorities...


Incidents happen all the time, and if everyone's reaction was this then there would be 2 airlines in the world with a fleet of 4 aircraft each.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
CXfirst
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:32 pm

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 31#eceac34

Might need gold or business membership to actually see this.

I know accuracy of FR24 might not be 100%, but it shows the aircraft hitting 1,075ft at about the point they would have commenced turning final. It wasn't even a long straight in approach where some sort of nav data might have had an error or caused confusion. Surely, they should have realised something was seriously wrong when they started descent below 3,000ft and weren't even on the approach yet. OR they believed the intercept leg of about 230 deg was finals (when it should have been around 145). In any case, some serious misjudgment!

As a bit of a reference, on the final, successful approach, they were at about 2,850ft where they were at just over 1,000ft on the first attempt.

Edit: On second thought, they were probably given a descent in meters, but forgot to change over from ft, and set it to the correct meter height (but inadvertently had it in feet still). Anyway, a serious error nonetheless.

-CXfirst
 
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seat55a
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:56 pm

Meters vs feet is an interesting speculation I was on a Piedmont flight into LGW (remember those?) where the first attempt/go around was absurdly high. I wondered at the time if the Piedmont pilots, with little or no experience outside the US, had assumed altitudes were given in meters.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:06 pm

seat55a wrote:
Meters vs feet is an interesting speculation I was on a Piedmont flight into LGW (remember those?) where the first attempt/go around was absurdly high. I wondered at the time if the Piedmont pilots, with little or no experience outside the US, had assumed altitudes were given in meters.


That's an interesting theory. Doesn't Russia use meters with regards to aviation?
 
worldranger
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:12 pm

Amongst commercial pilots - EK is considered one the poorest outfits to work for - and as such droves of experienced Captains have left for greener pastures such as Korean & China over the last 4-5 years.

They are now hiring turbo prop pilots with minimum experience to fly large wide bodies aircraft in complex ops - which was unheard of 7-10 years ago.

There is a global shortage of that kind of experience and they seem to not kept up with the market in terms of pay & benefits. The main complaints are they are a 'dollar shy but penny wise.'

EK is the largest international airline in the world and they are the Ryaniar of long haul - the conversation amongst my buddies there is "who are you applying to?"

Most of my friends say they don't want to be there WHEN the big one happens not IF.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:33 pm

Queue the apologists. Fatigue must explain it. The pilots ar sufficiently trained. CAVOK in the middle of the day and they descend to 400 AGL 8 nm from any runway....not fit for this job, period.
 
ImperialEagle
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:34 pm

The folks who ring the Lutine Bell might jerk a knot in EK's rope. They may find their partner in risk is not going to absorb the "big one" as easily as they think.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:54 pm

KEWR2014 wrote:
atcsundevil wrote:
Why would ATC not have noticed this..? They should have gotten an MSAW alert. At the very least the controller should have noticed the aircraft descending well below the approach.


I'm not too sure about the terminal environment but in an enroute environment, the MSAW alert is auto-suppressed within a certain range around an airport. Also, we'll often lose radar contact below a certain altitude depending on the radar coverage.

I know, I work in a center. I'm not as familiar with the approach control environment however, much less how things operate in Russia, but being that low 8nm from the field should have triggered a warning — if not in the system, then in the controller's brain. Being in the terminal area, their radar coverage should have been sufficient, especially being the capital...but again, Russia, so who knows. At the very least, I'd like to know what the controller was doing. He should have noticed the aircraft well below the approach. It would have taken quite some time for the aircraft to descend to 400ft AGL. I guess this is what happens if you're not paying attention or performing your scan.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:05 pm

Have the flight crew been resigned yet?

[Yes, the wording of that is intentional]

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
WPvsMW
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:07 pm

ImperialEagle wrote:
The folks who ring the Lutine Bell might jerk a knot in EK's rope. They may find their partner in risk is not going to absorb the "big one" as easily as they think.


More likely, the Names on Lime Street will raise the premiums.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Qantas744er
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:08 pm

Gonzalo wrote:
Good morning everybody. If someone has any aditional info to share about this... looks pretty serious.


http://avherald.com/h?article=4ae84b8a&opt=0

Thanks in advance


100% A.net of armchair pilots commenting here are unaware that QFE ops are still used in most of the Russian airspace. When ATC issued a "descend and maintain 500 meters (yes...meters)", on the ILS14R approach, the crew should have set 2200ft QNH on the FCU. There is a altitude conversion table for QFE/QNH on the approach plate. Add fatigue and a lapse of judgement, and you find yourself having set 500ft (feet) on the FCU......get the picture?

Not the first time this has happened in QFE airspace, and it wont be the last...

Do some research and youll find plenty of recent near CFIT events at the worlds biggest operators.
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
catiii
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:17 pm

flymia wrote:
The good thing is the crew noticed the mistake and took action.


Where, in SFO when they were told by the airplanes on the taxiway that they were lined up with the taxiway? Or at DME when they got to 400' AGL before going around?

I haven't flown into SVO since my days as an L15 S/O many, many years ago (I lucked out never having to do it sitting reserve on the ER in JFK). I know Russia was slowly transitioning this year from metric altitude to QNH, but I believe the transition was only at LED and hadn't yet been rolled out to SVO, DME, etc. Will be interesting to see if this was a meters/feet error.
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:18 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Looks like two go-arounds after one another.. is there a possibility this could be blamed on something other than the crew?


Yes it is possible that the approach or the navigation database had a problem. Two consecutive go arounds to me implies that there was a problem with the route plotted by the flight management computer. I have seen issues on other planes where the flight management computer does not correctly plot the path between the waypoints when loading an approach.

I don't know if Moscow has an unusual or unconventional approach. It could have been an error in the nav database. I don't know if anyone else is flying A380s into Moscow. There could have been a problem with how the database and airplanes flight management computers interpret the approach. 400 AGL is awfully late to catch such a problem

For those who don't know how nav databases work, here is a good handbook from the FAA

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... pter_6.pdf

Interesting possibility. It is worth pointing out in case it is missed in this thread that the AvHead article says:

... about to intercept the extended runway center line about 8nm before the runway threshold when the aircraft descended to about 400 feet AGL, initiated a go around climbing straight ahead and crossing through the localizer to safe altitude. The aircraft subsequently positioned for another approach to runway 14R, aligned with the extended runway center line but did not initiate the final descent and joined the missed approach procedure as result. The aircraft positioned again for an approach to runway 14R and landed without further incident on runway 14R about 35 minutes after the first go around (from 400 feet AGL).

So although the first go-around was from 400AGL, the second was made on centre line but prior to descent. Perhaps troubleshooting the issue?

OA940 wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Jayafe wrote:

Paranoia, hate, or just over reaction drama?


My humble opinion, not paranoia, not drama, not overreaction, just natural worries about a serious
Incident with one of the biggest passenger aircraft in service. The METAR published says condition
was CAVOK... this incident could ended much worse with low vis...let's hope we can read something in the future with the findings of the aviation authorities...


Incidents happen all the time, and if everyone's reaction was this then there would be 2 airlines in the world with a fleet of 4 aircraft each.

I agree that it is frustrating when minor issues are overblown. At the same time however, it is probably unwise to dismiss incidents as "they happen all the time" - there are doubtless going to be safety lessons from this one, and it deserves to be professionally investigated rather than just treated as ops normal. The fact that we as an industry, by and large, take these things extremely seriously is why the number of fatal airliner accidents has been in steady decline for the last two decades.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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OA940
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:19 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
Looks like two go-arounds after one another.. is there a possibility this could be blamed on something other than the crew?


Yes it is possible that the approach or the navigation database had a problem. Two consecutive go arounds to me implies that there was a problem with the route plotted by the flight management computer. I have seen issues on other planes where the flight management computer does not correctly plot the path between the waypoints when loading an approach.

I don't know if Moscow has an unusual or unconventional approach. It could have been an error in the nav database. I don't know if anyone else is flying A380s into Moscow. There could have been a problem with how the database and airplanes flight management computers interpret the approach. 400 AGL is awfully late to catch such a problem

For those who don't know how nav databases work, here is a good handbook from the FAA

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policie ... pter_6.pdf

Interesting possibility. It is worth pointing out in case it is missed in this thread that the AvHead article says:

... about to intercept the extended runway center line about 8nm before the runway threshold when the aircraft descended to about 400 feet AGL, initiated a go around climbing straight ahead and crossing through the localizer to safe altitude. The aircraft subsequently positioned for another approach to runway 14R, aligned with the extended runway center line but did not initiate the final descent and joined the missed approach procedure as result. The aircraft positioned again for an approach to runway 14R and landed without further incident on runway 14R about 35 minutes after the first go around (from 400 feet AGL).

So although the first go-around was from 400AGL, the second was made on centre line but prior to descent. Perhaps troubleshooting the issue?

OA940 wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:

My humble opinion, not paranoia, not drama, not overreaction, just natural worries about a serious
Incident with one of the biggest passenger aircraft in service. The METAR published says condition
was CAVOK... this incident could ended much worse with low vis...let's hope we can read something in the future with the findings of the aviation authorities...


Incidents happen all the time, and if everyone's reaction was this then there would be 2 airlines in the world with a fleet of 4 aircraft each.

I agree that it is frustrating when minor issues are overblown. At the same time however, it is probably unwise to dismiss incidents as "they happen all the time" - there are doubtless going to be safety lessons from this one, and it deserves to be professionally investigated rather than just treated as ops normal. The fact that we as an industry, by and large, take these things extremely seriously is why the number of fatal airliner accidents has been in steady decline for the last two decades.

V/F


I didn't dismiss the accident. It isn't normal, and is honestly quite scary. But it doesn't necessarily (and most likely) represent the whole company. That is the problem with the flying public. Like people stopped flying MH after their two crashes in 2014, neither of which was a fault of the company. It wasn't a complaint to Gonzalo, but more of an observation. People always blame the whole company when one person slips and something happens, and it's unfair unless proven otherwise.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
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zeke
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:32 pm

Qantas744er wrote:
100% A.net of armchair pilots commenting here are unaware that QFE ops are still used in most of the Russian airspace. When ATC issued a "descend and maintain 500 meters (yes...meters)", on the ILS14R approach, the crew should have set 2200ft QNH on the FCU. There is a altitude conversion table for QFE/QNH on the approach plate. Add fatigue and a lapse of judgement, and you find yourself having set 500ft (feet) on the FCU......get the picture?

Not the first time this has happened in QFE airspace, and it wont be the last...

Do some research and youll find plenty of recent near CFIT events at the worlds biggest operators.


The IAF is 900 m and the FAP 800m there would be no instruction to descend to 500m. More than likely they set 900 ft in the FCU instead of 900 m. 900 ft is around 400 ft above airport elevation.

I only ever operated into DME using QNH.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ExDubai
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:50 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
Have the flight crew been resigned yet?

[Yes, the wording of that is intentional]

V/F

According to the jungle drums "only" grounded
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
 
WorldFlier
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:13 pm

727200 wrote:
Someone gonna get some time off to think bout this.


Was it co-pilot at the controls twice? Finally Captain took over?
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:24 am

WorldFlier wrote:
727200 wrote:
Someone gonna get some time off to think bout this.


Was it co-pilot at the controls twice? Finally Captain took over?

This is one among many questions, other interesting thing is what caused the second try also was not successful. This incident must be investigated seriously and the findings should be available for all the relevant actors in the industry to avoid similar situations in the future. Like others said before, this doesn't mean we are over reacting, or bashing a particular airline or bussiness model. The transparency and public knowledge of the mistakes in the past are among the reasons we can say today aviation is by far the safest way to travel, certianly that shouldn't change.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / FH-227 / A318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789 / B788 / A343 / ATR72-600
 
b747400erf
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:49 am

Qantas744er wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Good morning everybody. If someone has any aditional info to share about this... looks pretty serious.


http://avherald.com/h?article=4ae84b8a&opt=0

Thanks in advance


100% A.net of armchair pilots commenting here are unaware that QFE ops are still used in most of the Russian airspace. When ATC issued a "descend and maintain 500 meters (yes...meters)", on the ILS14R approach, the crew should have set 2200ft QNH on the FCU. There is a altitude conversion table for QFE/QNH on the approach plate. Add fatigue and a lapse of judgement, and you find yourself having set 500ft (feet) on the FCU......get the picture?

Not the first time this has happened in QFE airspace, and it wont be the last...

Do some research and youll find plenty of recent near CFIT events at the worlds biggest operators.


Investigation done case closed, go home boys!
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:53 am

Qantas744er wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Good morning everybody. If someone has any aditional info to share about this... looks pretty serious.


http://avherald.com/h?article=4ae84b8a&opt=0

Thanks in advance


100% A.net of armchair pilots commenting here are unaware that QFE ops are still used in most of the Russian airspace. When ATC issued a "descend and maintain 500 meters (yes...meters)", on the ILS14R approach, the crew should have set 2200ft QNH on the FCU. There is a altitude conversion table for QFE/QNH on the approach plate. Add fatigue and a lapse of judgement, and you find yourself having set 500ft (feet) on the FCU......get the picture?

Not the first time this has happened in QFE airspace, and it wont be the last...

Do some research and youll find plenty of recent near CFIT events at the worlds biggest operators.


Using meters and QFE, instead of converting it to QNH, makes it easier and much less error-prone. You just fly the clearances. Yes, requires training, but I've flown around a good bit of Russia and using .
QFE is the way to go along with changing the altimeters to meters.

GF
 
worldranger
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Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:55 am

Qantas744er wrote:
Gonzalo wrote:
Good morning everybody. If someone has any aditional info to share about this... looks pretty serious.


http://avherald.com/h?article=4ae84b8a&opt=0

Thanks in advance


100% A.net of armchair pilots commenting here are unaware that QFE ops are still used in most of the Russian airspace. When ATC issued a "descend and maintain 500 meters (yes...meters)", on the ILS14R approach, the crew should have set 2200ft QNH on the FCU. There is a altitude conversion table for QFE/QNH on the approach plate. Add fatigue and a lapse of judgement, and you find yourself having set 500ft (feet) on the FCU......get the picture?

Not the first time this has happened in QFE airspace, and it wont be the last...

Do some research and youll find plenty of recent near CFIT events at the worlds biggest operators.


With all due respect and I mean this politely - the only problem with lecturing armchair QB'ing is that you may be guilty yourself. While you may in fact be correct there is another way this could happen

One of the rumors doing the rounds is that they were high on left down wind 14R and when turned in and cleared they initiated the GS from above maneuver but neglected to arm the GS. The problem with this maneuver I see from new FOs is that many of them do that training at home base sim where the airport elevation is close to zero so they get in the habit of putting 1000' in MCP/FCP. Therein lies the rub - in DME's case you must add the 594' elevation to the 1000' i.e. 1600 in FCP. If they put in 1000' engaged VS to 2000fpm and neglected to arm the GS - guess what - you are diving to 405' and a GPWS.

I have never in my career been issued with a clearance to below 1500' and would automatically challenge it - but hey who knows what happened.

I know you nor I do .... yet.
 
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zkojq
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:55 am

A similar incident occurred a year or two back with an EK A380 on approach to RW34 at Melbourne. I'd provide a link, but I'm on mobile at the moment.

ExDubai wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
Have the flight crew been resigned yet?

[Yes, the wording of that is intentional]

V/F

According to the jungle drums "only" grounded

So that tells us that EK is currently facing a crewing shortage. ;)
First to fly the 787-9
 
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seabosdca
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:36 am

Wow, scary. But let's find out what actually happened.

There are only two situations in which this sort of incident should reflect on the airline: 1) if the investigation reveals some sort of airline issue (such as training, rostering, or CRM) that likely contributed to the error, or 2) if the airline appears to treat the incident in a cavalier manner. Emirates hasn't said anything, and we don't know about what caused it yet.

(A good example of the latter issue is the QR MIA accident -- the reason it turned me off QR is that al-Baker flapped his yap about the accident not being a big deal.)
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:18 am

Very scary incident. Qantas744er, can you point us to some of the other incidents of similar nature? I'm sure there are plenty. But it is scary that (for instance) a unit conversion mistake can proceed this far undetected. Basically GPWS may have been what saved them.
 
worldranger
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:03 am

This was not a conversion problem.
 
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zeke
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:35 am

worldranger wrote:
One of the rumors doing the rounds is that they were high on left down wind 14R and when turned in and cleared they initiated the GS from above maneuver but neglected to arm the GS. The problem with this maneuver I see from new FOs is that many of them do that training at home base sim where the airport elevation is close to zero so they get in the habit of putting 1000' in MCP/FCP.


That is not the way G/S from above is done on any FBW Airbus, you have just given yourself away as a Boeing driver by saying you set an altitude below.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Salomon
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:29 am

flymia wrote:
While concerning, things happen. An Air Canada crew almost landed on top of a 787 sitting on a taxi way. I will still fly Air Canada. The good thing is the crew noticed the mistake and took action.


Air Canada was told to go around by ATC. It was not initiated by the crew.
Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
 
emiratesdriver
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:59 pm

Not sure if they were ever established on the localiser, but the word is it was an attempt to intercept from above in Open Descent and the GPWS was due to obstacles. The Captain I am told is very experienced, the FO not so much.
 
ExDubai
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:29 pm

Management response.......

Ladies and Gentlemen

STANDARDS ON THE LINE

You will be aware that we have experienced some poorly managed events on the line over the last few months; unfortunately we experienced another one last week. In Training we promote the fact that we are driven by evidence, well the evidence indicates that that these events can no longer be viewed as isolated events, therefore it is imperative action is taken to stop the onset of a potential trend. We need to raise the levels of airmanship, awareness, suspicion and professionalism across our pilot community. Let me state that we are of the firm belief that the vast majority of our pilots are professional, proficient, efficient and effective. Unfortunately, the evidence indicates there is still work to be done to bring a small minority of pilots to this standard. The acid test, as always is, if following any training/checking session you would not be confident with the pilot flying your loved ones into some of the demanding destinations, terrain, weather and ATC environments which we operate into, then you have to flag those concerns to Training Management by accurately grading and reporting your observations.

In reviewing the events of the last few months we have asked ourselves what are we doing wrong? What are we missing? What’s the root cause? Why is our training and checking not able to identify those pilots who underperform on the line? Whilst the PFs and PMs in each case demonstrated failures in one or more of the pilot competencies, it was the loss of Situation Awareness and ineffective Pilot monitoring which were so concerning; we therefore need to enhance our training with regards to both. We have already started this in the current round of RTGS, where we present the Flight Data Monitoring playbacks from some of the events in question and then facilitate a discussion on what went wrong and what could have been done to prevent the situation from developing. However it is obvious that we need to do more, therefore in cooperation with Fleet we have decided to introduce the following changes:

· Trainers are to re-emphasize the importance of Pilot Monitoring duties during all Training and Checking events; this is to happen with immediate effect.
· Recurrent training to include a manually flown (Auto Pilot/Auto Throttle off) short sector, focusing on SA and Monitoring. We already cover this on Day 3 on the A380 using NCE; Boeing will introduce something similar on Day 2, this will be effective from 1 Oct this year. Emphasis is to be placed on the Pilot Monitoring making timely exceedance calls and demonstrating a satisfactory level of monitoring throughout the session. Please continue to insert ‘distractors’ during your sessions to mirror the distractions encountered on the line. The PM is to prioritise his workload to ensure his own SA and the safety of the aircraft are never compromised.
· We have re-written the word pictures for the Communication and the Leadership, Teamwork and Support PAMs to include more focus on PM skills. The FCI detailing these changes will be published shortly and will be effective immediately on receipt.
· During a training/checking session should a pilot miss a number of radio or SOP calls which might jeopardise the safety of the flight, or if their attitude or professionalism is called into question then the pilot is to be graded a ‘1’ for Leadership, Teamwork and Support. I accept this is subjective and whilst I would not expect to see a trainee fail because of a ‘few’ missed calls, several missed radio and/or SOP calls could be indicative of capacity or SA issues, so additional training is entirely appropriate.
· Any commander who is graded a ‘1’ or a ‘2’ for any competency during Day 1 or 2 of their recurrent simulator session will continue with their remaining simulator sessions, unless they are removed by a Training Manager. However, on completion of their recurrent training sessions a review of their performance will be conducted by Training/Fleet management prior to the commander being released back to the line; this is effective immediately.
· We will develop learning modules to improve knowledge and understanding of Auto Flight Systems modes. In the interim it is vital that you not only train Automation awareness but also the understanding of the modes.
· 25% of line checks will be planned as ‘No Notice’, this will be effective from the next planned roster. If you are rostered for one of these No Notice line checks, it is important you do not make the rostered crew aware – we are trying to get better visibility over our crews’ standards and level of preparedness – a true No Notice line check will give us that.
· Safety will provide Training with a list of our most challenging destinations and where possible Line Checks will be planned to these destinations going forward.
· There will be an additional 1-week ground school introduced for all new conversion courses to enhance/refresh fundamental ATPL knowledge; date for implementation TBD.
· Starting 1 Feb 2018, Day 3 of the recurrent PPC will be separated from Day 1 and 2. This will give trainees more regular exposure throughout the year to manual flight in the simulator as well as the opportunity to practise their monitoring skills. This initiative will also address the negative feedback we have received relating to 3 x deep night duties in a row and the limited training value gained from the 3rd night.
· We will be working with a third party research team to trial ‘eye tracking’ functionality in the simulator. We will use the results of the trial in the following RTGS phase to demonstrate the effectiveness, or not, of some crews’ scanning techniques during various stages of the flight.

In conclusion, the recent spate of poorly managed events on the line is deeply disappointing. Inaction on our part was simply not an option; as a result I hope you understand why these actions are being taken. It is vital that as trainers we lead by example and we demonstrate the standards others wish to aspire to. We recognise that ‘change’ can lead to uncertainty, especially if that change is introduced quickly. Therefore, if you are faced with a situation during your training and checking sessions over the coming weeks and are unsure of what is expected of you, please call your training management team who will be happy to assist.

As always thank you for your continued support.


SVP Flight Training


No selfreflection. Lowering the entry requirements and loosing a large number of experienced pilots/trainers and nobody is asking why.....
Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:56 pm

ExDubai wrote:
Management response.......

Ladies and Gentlemen

STANDARDS ON THE LINE

SVP Flight Training


No selfreflection. Lowering the entry requirements and loosing a large number of experienced pilots/trainers and nobody is asking why.....


Every morning they stand in front of the mirror and repeat "We are the best". The best self-reflection method.

As long as management thinks, computers fly planes and pilots are just data entry operators, and if anything goes wrong we have the best PR in the world to wipe out details from internet, this situation is not going to change.

If you are worried about TP pilots, wait until SR-22/Phenom-100 cadets occupy RHS.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ahmetdouas
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:21 pm

worldranger wrote:
Amongst commercial pilots - EK is considered one the poorest outfits to work for - and as such droves of experienced Captains have left for greener pastures such as Korean & China over the last 4-5 years.

They are now hiring turbo prop pilots with minimum experience to fly large wide bodies aircraft in complex ops - which was unheard of 7-10 years ago.

There is a global shortage of that kind of experience and they seem to not kept up with the market in terms of pay & benefits. The main complaints are they are a 'dollar shy but penny wise.'

EK is the largest international airline in the world and they are the Ryaniar of long haul - the conversation amongst my buddies there is "who are you applying to?"

Most of my friends say they don't want to be there WHEN the big one happens not IF.


Didn't the big one happen last year when Emirates messed up a basic go-around?
 
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Aesma
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Re: EK A388 go around being 400ft AGL at 8 nm off runway

Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:52 pm

Jayafe wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm glad I don't have any flight scheduled on EK.


Paranoia, hate, or just over reaction drama?


Well their recent crash landing doesn't help build confidence. After that I would have expected serious improvements in training.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:56 pm

flymia wrote:
While concerning, things happen. An Air Canada crew almost landed on top of a 787 sitting on a taxi way. I will still fly Air Canada. The good thing is the crew noticed the mistake and took action.


I think you meant "the good thing is the crew was flying an EGPWS equipped aircraft".
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:41 pm

Well, in the Air Canada case the airplane thought they were landing, so presumably EGPWS wouldn't have said anything, so it was down to another safety net (the ATC) to notice the problem in that case. With EK, they were far out so EGPWS did work as a safety net (although ATC could have as well, but apparently didn't).
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: EK A388 go around from 400ft AGL 8 nm before runway in Moscow

Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:04 pm

On Sep 19th 2017 the GCAA reported that the occurrence of the A380 descending below the glideslope on approach to runway 14R at Moscow Deomodedovo Airport was rated a serious incident and is being investigated by UAE's Air Accident Investigation Sector (AAIS). There were no injuries and no damage to the aircraft.
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