Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Topic Author
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:16 pm

The A320 plant in Tianjin has been expanded with an A330 completion centre:

Airbus has inaugurated its new A330 completion and delivery centre (CDC) in Tianjin, with local operator Tianjin Airlines taking delivery of the centre's first aircraft - an A330-200 registered B-8596.

The 16,800sqm facility, built close to its existing A320 final assembly line, will ultimately have a monthly output of two aircraft per month by early 2019.

Airbus says the facility is capable of handling aircraft completion activities including cabin installation, exterior painting, engine runs, flight tests, and delivery.


Article
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-441298/

Image

Image
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 4123
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:32 pm

Clever move.
Will they also be doing A330neo's? Given the A330 popularity in China, combined with this facility could open a lot of potential for the neo.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Topic Author
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:51 pm

Eventually A330neo and A350 aircraft too will be outfitted in Tianjin.

Airbus is considering moving A330neo and A350 cabin completion work to its Chinese production facility here and is also studying increased output from the site’s A320 final assembly line. Fabrice Bregier, Airbus Commercial Aircraft president, pointed out at the opening of the A330 completion center that the facility is able to move to or add the A330neo and the A350 work. “That is in the plan,” he said.


http://aviationweek.com/commercial-avia ... ty-further
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
wingman
Posts: 4019
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:12 pm

PW100 wrote:
Clever move.


In the short term certainly, long term it's just another step to hand over the keys to the kingdom. But what to do when dealing with a superpower that buys all your stuff? You know they're only plotting against you in the end but your employees and shareholders need to eat. It's been proven in so many industries that were borne of technical innovation. Few of them have any significant presence in China and those that do are throttled at every step while their trade secrets merrily find their way into the hands of domestic rivals. I don't have the answer but my primary worry with this news is actually a nod to Airbus quality and achievement, and that is that the 330NEO (even the CEO), is dangerously close in technical and production prowess to the 350 and 787. I wouldn't say the same of the 737 vs. the 787 for example. And yet Boeing not entertaining, so far at least, an assembly plant of one of its more advanced offerings will surely cost them orders in China. It's a real conundrum and there are no good answers.
 
wingman
Posts: 4019
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:14 pm

Wow, hadn't realized they were giving away the 350 too. I would call that decidedly unclever, what's the point really?
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Topic Author
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:25 am

wingman wrote:
what's the point really?


More orders?

As part of the completion centre China ordered a whopping 75 A330s few years ago. And more orders might follow as the plan is to deliver 2 A330s per month in 2019.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Topic Author
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:31 am

wingman wrote:
And yet Boeing not entertaining, so far at least, an assembly plant of one of its more advanced offerings will surely cost them orders in China. It's a real conundrum and there are no good answers.


Boeing will soon open a 737 completion centre in China.

Boeing To Open 737 Completion Centre In China
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
wingman
Posts: 4019
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:02 pm

That was the point I was making Karel. They're willing to trade literal design theft and know how of their most advanced product in exchange for orders that I think the 350 is competitive enough to win on its own. It's vastly different in my opinion than putting a 737 center there. Airbus will be getting orders regardless and I would've been much more wary of handing over the crown jewel of the empire to a "customer" that has stated publically that it's going to build a similar jet in the next 10-15 years. The mood in China's aviation sector at this news? I'd say 100% chance of shock and giddiness.
 
BREECH
Posts: 619
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:07 pm

Airbus has inaugurated its new A330 completion and delivery centre (CDC) in Tianjin, with local operator Tianjin Airlines taking delivery of the centre's first aircraft - an A330-200 registered B-8596.

The 16,800sqm facility, built close to its existing A320 final assembly line, will ultimately have a monthly output of two aircraft per month by early 2019.

Airbus says the facility is capable of handling aircraft completion activities including cabin installation, exterior painting, engine runs, flight tests, and delivery.


I like how Airbus carefully names their "facilities" in China. Clever move. China will be able to say they have "an Airbus production facilities", and we know they love this sort-of-true "news". And Airbus will keep full control over everything that actually matters in an airliner. AND keep their technology from being stolen.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19299
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:29 pm

wingman wrote:
In the short term certainly, long term it's just another step to hand over the keys to the kingdom.


The Chinese will be installing seats, galleys and loos in a 1980s-era plane and then painting it prior to delivery. How on Earth does that equate to "handing over the keys to the kingdom"? If the Chinese wanted to know how to build A330s, they could easily have reverse-engineered any of the planes they been operating for years. They haven't.

wingman wrote:
Wow, hadn't realized they were giving away the 350 too.


What exactly is Airbus "giving away" apart from the skills required to install seats, galleys and loos in a plane? Which is nothing the Chinese haven't done before. China started building MD-80s over 30 years ago. Apparently they didn't learn very much.

I'm really struggling to understand what your concern is.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9462
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:32 pm

wingman wrote:
That was the point I was making Karel. They're willing to trade literal design theft and know how of their most advanced product in exchange for orders that I think the 350 is competitive enough to win on its own. It's vastly different in my opinion than putting a 737 center there. Airbus will be getting orders regardless and I would've been much more wary of handing over the crown jewel of the empire to a "customer" that has stated publically that it's going to build a similar jet in the next 10-15 years. The mood in China's aviation sector at this news? I'd say 100% chance of shock and giddiness.


What is "most advanced" in screwing in seats, gluing carpets and painting the outside with a spray gun?

Typical "IP is a tangible good" thinking you exhibit here.

.. and in my experience the louder some one screams about his "stolen" IP ( now sitting there with empty pockets :-)
the more pronounced is the lack of "remarkable, innovative or special".

Real Innovation is a fount. Never dry.
Writing colorful PR and homesteading ideas from abroad is not innovation.
Murphy is an optimist
 
wingman
Posts: 4019
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:05 pm

If you think that's all they'll be doing, just screwing in the seats and popping in the windows, well good luck. My personal feeling is they'll be reverse engineering every aspect of both planes and everything you think is proprietary and took decades to develop will be on Page 1 of the C919 sales brochure. They are the greatest industrial espionage power on the planet. And what will Airbus do about it? The same as the US..which is not much except blow a lot of hot air. China is just too big and too powerful a customer. The 350 is a step too far though. It can sell on its own merits and more thoroughly protected from an IP standpoint by delivery from HQs.
 
juliuswong
Posts: 2021
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 am

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:08 pm

scbriml wrote:
wingman wrote:
In the short term certainly, long term it's just another step to hand over the keys to the kingdom.


The Chinese will be installing seats, galleys and loos in a 1980s-era plane and then painting it prior to delivery. How on Earth does that equate to "handing over the keys to the kingdom"? If the Chinese wanted to know how to build A330s, they could easily have reverse-engineered any of the planes they been operating for years. They haven't.

wingman wrote:
Wow, hadn't realized they were giving away the 350 too.


What exactly is Airbus "giving away" apart from the skills required to install seats, galleys and loos in a plane? Which is nothing the Chinese haven't done before. China started building MD-80s over 30 years ago. Apparently they didn't learn very much.

I'm really struggling to understand what your concern is.

Ditto, Chinese Government is ambitious but they are not that dumb to launch widebody in next few years. This is evident with their struggle with COMAC 919 and ARJ 21 program. Billions have been dumped into both program, but we can see they are still on learning curve. Not forgetting engines are still from foreign entities. It will be another 30-50 years before we can see a viable China design-and-made widebody competitor to A and B. One that can really challenge A and B duopoloy.
- Life is a journey, travel it well -
 
WIederling
Posts: 9462
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:11 pm

wingman wrote:
If you think that's all they'll be doing, just screwing in the seats and popping in the windows, well good luck. My personal feeling is they'll be reverse engineering every aspect of both planes and everything you think is proprietary and took decades to develop will be on Page 1 of the C919 sales brochure. They are the greatest industrial espionage power on the planet. And what will Airbus do about it? The same as the US..which is not much except blow a lot of hot air. China is just too big and too powerful a customer. The 350 is a step too far though. It can sell on its own merits and more thoroughly protected from an IP standpoint by delivery from HQs.


No Chinese airline ( and thus by your allegation all the cheeky yellow spies ) will have access to A330 or A350 or A380, god forbid?

Your are constructing a case that does not exist.
Murphy is an optimist
 
wingman
Posts: 4019
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:22 pm

OK. If any of us gets a chance to ask an Airbus exec in private whether they're concerned that might be the only way to gauge their true concern. I'd wager E1000 any one of them would say "yeah, we're scared shitless but what can we do except touch our toes when China tells us to bend over?" My final word on the topic is that to have 350 shells sitting in a factory for anyone interested to come and take a look see is not worth the risk. It's the very pinnacle of commercial aviation know how.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19299
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:40 pm

wingman wrote:
If you think that's all they'll be doing, just screwing in the seats and popping in the windows, well good luck.


Wait, where did "popping in the windows" come from? The A330s (and later A350s) will all be assembled in Toulouse and flown to Tianjin for the installation of seats, galleys & loos and painting prior to delivery.

wingman wrote:
My personal feeling is they'll be reverse engineering every aspect of both planes and everything you think is proprietary and took decades to develop will be on Page 1 of the C919 sales brochure.


They've had years to reverse engineer Boeings, MDs and Airbuses. Why do you think them getting a few A330s and A350s without seats installed will make any difference?

I really cannot see what Airbus needs to be concerned about.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19299
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:47 pm

wingman wrote:
My final word on the topic is that to have 350 shells sitting in a factory for anyone interested to come and take a look see is not worth the risk. It's the very pinnacle of commercial aviation know how.


They won't have "A350 shells", they'll have completed aircraft minus seats, galleys and loos. What can China get from that that they couldn't get from removing said items from an A350 delivered complete to Air China? :confused:

China has had access to Western aircraft since CAAC operated 707s and Tridents in the mid-1970s.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 4706
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:35 pm

What sort of challenges would you face by having to ferry empty aircraft to China like that? I would imagine that an A330 without any seats or lavatories would be a bit out of balance, no? Do they need to fit them with ballast tanks, and them ship empty ballast barrels all the way back to France after use? And the test flights, would they be done in China or France?
 
rg787
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:28 pm

Re: Airbus officially opens A330 Completion & Delivery Centre in Tianjin

Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:53 pm

wingman wrote:
PW100 wrote:
Clever move.


In the short term certainly, long term it's just another step to hand over the keys to the kingdom. But what to do when dealing with a superpower that buys all your stuff? You know they're only plotting against you in the end but your employees and shareholders need to eat. It's been proven in so many industries that were borne of technical innovation. Few of them have any significant presence in China and those that do are throttled at every step while their trade secrets merrily find their way into the hands of domestic rivals. I don't have the answer but my primary worry with this news is actually a nod to Airbus quality and achievement, and that is that the 330NEO (even the CEO), is dangerously close in technical and production prowess to the 350 and 787. I wouldn't say the same of the 737 vs. the 787 for example. And yet Boeing not entertaining, so far at least, an assembly plant of one of its more advanced offerings will surely cost them orders in China. It's a real conundrum and there are no good answers.


While I agree with what you said, I think that is not the case here.

I think the real knowledge is on the assembly of the plane, and that is not going to China.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos