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ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:09 am

kngkyle wrote:
ILS28ORD wrote:
kngkyle wrote:

What western access people mover? That is news to me.


The one mentioned as a possibility in the dnainfo article linked above, in addition to western security and western parking..


Ah, thanks. I missed that somehow.

I'm of the belief that western access was only a carrot used by the city to get the western suburbs on board with the expansion plan. I don't think it was ever really in the cards and I don't think that has changed. There was no mention of it in the O'Hare 21 plan from a few months ago. Western access doesn't benefit the city so I don't see them trying to strongarm the airlines into paying for it and the city certainly isn't going to pay for it. Never going to happen imo.


Are you talking about the western terminal or western access in general? Because if western access in general was never in the cards, the city of Chicago could be facing a hefty lawsuit from the tollway, DuPage County and others...........
 
ILS28ORD
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Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:27 am

ADrum23 wrote:
ILS28ORD wrote:
If some sort of western compromise isn't reached there are going to be plenty of pissed off towns/cities/counties that will rightfully feel duped. Plus what is the point of the eastern I-390 extension? It would be a huge waste of money already spent to not have some kind of western access.

I'm not sure the state would allow the city to screw the western suburbs. I don't know where the money for the 390 extension came from but Id be willing to bet the city of Chicago did not pay for that, was it state tax payer funded? That would be where I see the state of Illinois stepping in and demanding some kind of western airport entrance. The city may not have investmented to the west, but many other people in the state have.


The IL-390 extension and the I-490 West Bypass connecting I-90 to I-294 is an Illinois Tollway project. Because IDOT is absolutely incompetent and broke, the state had the tollway take over the project to get it completed, including tolling the existing portion of IL-390 (formerly the Elgin-O'Hare Expressway). The current plans (see the document below) have an access ramp going from York Road onto airport property, but IL-390 proper won't right now.

https://www.illinoistollway.com/documents/20184/239152/4_EOWA_ConceptPlan_WesternAccess_I-294/66b561cc-8d23-43cd-8756-80d3334d646d?version=1.0

As you can see, there is plenty of land. The concept above has some sort of western facility there. I'm not sure if that is suppose to be a terminal or a parking garage or what. If the airlines don't want a western terminal, fine, but there is still no reason they can't put parking garages/security screening facilities with people movers to the existing (rebuilt and expanded) terminals. Opening up the west side of ORD to access would be huge for the region.


Well said and just what I was getting at. You don't need terminals to the west to have western access. Money has already been spent in the western suburbs to connect them to O'Hare. The city would have a problem on its hands with Dupage county and western suburbs being rightfully aggravated as they essentially were lied to if no western access is built at this point. If no new terminal is built, at least connect the west side to the current terminals.
 
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kngkyle
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:49 am

It all comes down to who is going to pay for it. And by "it" I mean the $1 billion it will cost to build facilities and a people mover that has to be tunneled under miles of existing infrastructure. Is the city going to pay that? No. Are the airlines going to pay that? Unlikely, given they're already likely to commit untold billions to the terminal project. Is DuPage county and the suburban townships going to pay for it? This is the only option and an equally unlikely one. Their road to nowhere is only half of what is needed.

However, I do absolutely 100% believe that some day O'Hare will have western access and perhaps even a western terminal, but that is unlikely to be in the next decade or two.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:25 am

kngkyle wrote:
It all comes down to who is going to pay for it. And by "it" I mean the $1 billion it will cost to build facilities and a people mover that has to be tunneled under miles of existing infrastructure. Is the city going to pay that? No. Are the airlines going to pay that? Unlikely, given they're already likely to commit untold billions to the terminal project. Is DuPage county and the suburban townships going to pay for it? This is the only option and an equally unlikely one. Their road to nowhere is only half of what is needed.

However, I do absolutely 100% believe that some day O'Hare will have western access and perhaps even a western terminal, but that is unlikely to be in the next decade or two.


Unlikely in the next decade or two? I don't think so. If they don't do it during the terminal rebuild/expansion, then when will they? An underground people mover would have to be constructed while the area is torn up during the terminal expansions. And considering the amount of vacant land there, I don't think it would be terribly difficult for a new people mover between the western access facility and the newly rebuilt Terminal 2.

Who will pay for it? Like other airport improvement projects, all of the airlines that come into ORD will pay for it via fees, since they all would benefit from it (and it would be part of the proposed terminal rebuild/expansion). A western access facility would be a general airport improvement project, similar to the new consolidated rental car facility under construction. More access to the airport means more customers, and all airlines would benefit from that.

The tollway/suburbs built the new IL-390 with options to extend into a new western access facility (via both IL-390 and York Road), something has to be done. The east side is way too congested and western access absolutely cannot wait any longer, we've been waiting for 25-30 years. If the City of Chicago/Cook County/Chicago Airport Commission and the airlines do not allow for western access, they better prepare to be served with a lawsuit from the Illinois Tollway, DuPage County and the suburbs for backing out on promises as well as for payments towards the construction costs of the IL-390/I-490 project. It will be very ugly to say the least.

Finally, the USDOT has designated the EOWA (IL-390/I-490) project as a "project of national and regional significance" due to the ability to enhance the region's economy by providing better access to O'Hare. If the City/Airport backs out on western access, they could also be facing issues from the federal government.
 
ZBA2CGX
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:38 pm

The IL-390 and western bypass (I-490) project still has the problem of trying to get the land for the interstate. I believe Canadian Pacific has told them it is a no go because of the importance of the Bensenville Freight yard. To a lesser extent Union Pacific Train yard as well.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/colu ... story.html
Project details
https://www.illinoistollway.com/project ... r-overview
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:42 pm

kngkyle wrote:
I'm of the belief that western access was only a carrot used by the city to get the western suburbs on board with the expansion plan. I don't think it was ever really in the cards and I don't think that has changed. There was no mention of it in the O'Hare 21 plan from a few months ago. Western access doesn't benefit the city so I don't see them trying to strongarm the airlines into paying for it and the city certainly isn't going to pay for it. Never going to happen imo.


I agree. The road might be there but it doesn't seem anyone has taken that idea any further since the original master plan from 15 years ago. The latest plan says something about a west parking/screening facility but doesn't say anything about that will work. I think at best, you end up with a parking lot and small terminal... connected to the rest of the terminals with a shuttle bus.
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:37 pm

Although it is being discussed in another thread, it is worth mentioning here: ET will be flying to ORD in June 2018!!!
 
jbs2886
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:46 pm

United787 wrote:
Although it is being discussed in another thread, it is worth mentioning here: ET will be flying to ORD in June 2018!!!


This is great news, we certainly need some African and more SA flights. Curious where ET will stop, if it does (although I suspect it will - maybe SNN to replace UA, would be similar to current DUB stops).
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:14 pm

United787 wrote:
Although it is being discussed in another thread, it is worth mentioning here: ET will be flying to ORD in June 2018!!!


Am excited to see the EH tails grace the airfield as well.

Here's a new article that goes in a little more detail with the update. Really interesting fact about Addis Ababa take-offs being weight restricted.

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... s-chicago/
 
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kordcj
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:50 am

ORDfan wrote:
United787 wrote:
Although it is being discussed in another thread, it is worth mentioning here: ET will be flying to ORD in June 2018!!!


Am excited to see the EH tails grace the airfield as well.

Here's a new article that goes in a little more detail with the update. Really interesting fact about Addis Ababa take-offs being weight restricted.

http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/ ... s-chicago/


Thanks for posting! I was just about to ask if this was really true, as it appeared to be more of a rumor than a fact. Both Ethiopian and CDoA have been quiet about such big news. As much as I know about ORD, I can't recall if the airport has ever had nonstop service to Africa. Be great to get service to a new continent, although I'm not sure how profitable it'll be.

Speaking of profitability, does anyone know how BR is doing to TPE? I noticed in the weekly OAG updates, that the frequency of flights keep getting less and less. Same for MU to PVG.
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ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:41 am

kordcj wrote:
Speaking of profitability, does anyone know how BR is doing to TPE? I noticed in the weekly OAG updates, that the frequency of flights keep getting less and less. Same for MU to PVG.


Hmm it's a relatively new route and they were 4x/week starting out; but looks like their web time-able is up to 5x/wk through Dec. What's OAG showing? I'd imagine TPE-ORD could be more viable going forward as Foxconn gets going on their Racine campus.

Sorry, no clue on MU.
 
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qf789
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:59 am

Tim Clark has told AusBT that a likely starter for the new first class suites on EK's 77W's could be Chicago

https://twitter.com/AusBT/status/929601846208901120
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:02 pm

qf789 wrote:
Tim Clark has told AusBT that a likely starter for the new first class suites on EK's 77W's could be Chicago

https://twitter.com/AusBT/status/929601846208901120


That is exciting news for our small cow town! But does that mean we won't be getting the whale?
 
muralir
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Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:19 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
They better get something going, it is appalling how much ORD has fallen behind.


In ORD's defense, they *are* just finishing a massive $10bil reconfiguration of their runways. there was no point in redoing terminals until the runways were completed and the new space was freed up.

Quite frankly, I'd rather take the runway expansion over terminal expansion, merely because runways are always much harder to build (local opposition, usually needs land acquisition, etc.). No other airport has managed a similar runway expansion, which is the equivalent of adding the capacity of DFW or JFK onto ORD's already huge operations.

Now that that's complete, it's a much easier process to redo the terminals which will be happening over the next 5-10 years or so.
 
muralir
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Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:32 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
Well said and just what I was getting at. You don't need terminals to the west to have western access. Money has already been spent in the western suburbs to connect them to O'Hare. The city would have a problem on its hands with Dupage county and western suburbs being rightfully aggravated as they essentially were lied to if no western access is built at this point. If no new terminal is built, at least connect the west side to the current terminals.


I honestly don't see the reason why the western suburbs keep harping on western access, and I say this as someone who lives in DuPage. With the current terminal configuration exactly tailored to eastern access, a "western access" road will merely curve around the airport and enter from the east anyway, which means there will be no reduction in time. There's no way they're going to tunnel the road under essentially the width of the entire airport. It's just too expensive.

And if they eventually build a western terminal, so what? If you're coming in from Elgin and your flight leaves out of Terminal 1, you'd still need to come in from the east. Similarly, if you're from Chicago and need to get the western terminal, you'd need to go around to the west? Even with a western terminal, it makes sense to have a single access road to enter the entire airport, with branches from there. Otherwise, it will be a mess for people trying to figure out which entrance they need to use, and then swearing up and down when they use the wrong entrance leading to a 30 minute delay to exit and go all the way around to the other side, which causes them to miss their flight.

I was always under the impression that the western access plan was just a fig leaf that western suburbs used (and Chicago went along with) so they could declare to their constituents that they got something tangible out of the the whole runway reconfiguration (I guess jobs and better connectivity aren't enough for NIMBYs). But it was never actually a real plan.

I'm genuinely curious: to the western access supporters out there, what exactly is it supposed to accomplish? How much reduction in travel times will it accomplish, and/or what type of increased economic activity will be gained from it (is there industrial / warehousing land that would be opened up?) that makes it worth spending the billion dollars or so on it?
 
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kordcj
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:51 pm

Western access would reduce the congestion on 190 as now all the people coming from the west could be dropped off without having to drive around the whole airport. I can’t quantify the numbers you seek, but I certainly hope the state did it’s homework on the benefits of such an expansion vs the cost.
The western terminal will happen sometime in the far future. The current layout can’t last forever, the efficiency of the airport depends on a reconfigured terminal complex.

On another topic, does anyone know what the current aircraft hourly rate is in VFR/IFR conditions? What is the projected throughput when 9C/27C comes online? Is there any plan to utilize 28L in West flow?
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ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:09 pm

muralir wrote:
ILS28ORD wrote:
Well said and just what I was getting at. You don't need terminals to the west to have western access. Money has already been spent in the western suburbs to connect them to O'Hare. The city would have a problem on its hands with Dupage county and western suburbs being rightfully aggravated as they essentially were lied to if no western access is built at this point. If no new terminal is built, at least connect the west side to the current terminals.


I honestly don't see the reason why the western suburbs keep harping on western access, and I say this as someone who lives in DuPage. With the current terminal configuration exactly tailored to eastern access, a "western access" road will merely curve around the airport and enter from the east anyway, which means there will be no reduction in time. There's no way they're going to tunnel the road under essentially the width of the entire airport. It's just too expensive.

And if they eventually build a western terminal, so what? If you're coming in from Elgin and your flight leaves out of Terminal 1, you'd still need to come in from the east. Similarly, if you're from Chicago and need to get the western terminal, you'd need to go around to the west? Even with a western terminal, it makes sense to have a single access road to enter the entire airport, with branches from there. Otherwise, it will be a mess for people trying to figure out which entrance they need to use, and then swearing up and down when they use the wrong entrance leading to a 30 minute delay to exit and go all the way around to the other side, which causes them to miss their flight.

I was always under the impression that the western access plan was just a fig leaf that western suburbs used (and Chicago went along with) so they could declare to their constituents that they got something tangible out of the the whole runway reconfiguration (I guess jobs and better connectivity aren't enough for NIMBYs). But it was never actually a real plan.

I'm genuinely curious: to the western access supporters out there, what exactly is it supposed to accomplish? How much reduction in travel times will it accomplish, and/or what type of increased economic activity will be gained from it (is there industrial / warehousing land that would be opened up?) that makes it worth spending the billion dollars or so on it?


Not really sure why there are users here that think western access was just a political ploy when it has been discussed for decades. If indeed western access was a political ploy, then expect the airport and the City of Chicago to face lawsuits from the suburbs and the tollway authority. Why would they be proceeding with the IL-390/I-490 tollway if western access was never in the cards?

What is western access suppose to accomplish? Well, it is suppose to provide congestion relief to the clustered I-190 eastern entrance. Speaking as someone who used to live in the western suburbs of Chicago, it would be much easier to get into O'Hare from the west than to go into from the east and fight the major congestion on I-294 (which is extremely bad at rush hour) or I-90. Other major airports that have a significant amount of population living on both sides of it has access on both sides (ATL, DFW, etc), so why can't ORD?

People also say the western terminal may never happen, well, we need to forget the idea of the western terminal anyway. The main problem with the current ORD airport is that the terminals are functionally obsolete and they have an extremely outdated configuration. If ORD were smart and forward-thinking, they would do a phased demolition/rebuild/reconfiguration of the entire airport (except for Terminal 5, which would simply be expanded with 9 gates as proposed) into a series of island concourses from west to east with a people mover underneath (like ATL). An idea along these lines was proposed by the Chicago Tribune last year (see the third concept in this article http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-graphics-ohare-terminal-redevelopment-htmlstory.html). As part of this, you could have access points at both sides of the airport or a single new access point with roads to both I-190 to the east and IL-390 to the west.

Unfortunately, it does not look like that will happen, as it appears the city and the airport seems to be opting for something much smaller (and something that does not nearly go far enough IMO). But if ORD was serious about transforming itself, they would do the rebuild into island concourses and provide access on both sides.
 
klemma24
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:53 am

ORD's highest arrival rate as of now is 114 an hour. I have heard the arrival rate will go up to around 130 (can't remember the exact number) once 9C/27C opens. 28L arrivals will only happen if 22L is not used for a departure runway.

Look for the terminal re-configuration to start working its way westbound once 15/33 closes and a lot of airfield projects that need to take place are completed to make way for the expansion. It will be an ATL like configuration. Also, some of the work needed for T-5 expansion has already begun.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:00 am

klemma24 wrote:
Look for the terminal re-configuration to start working its way westbound once 15/33 closes and a lot of airfield projects that need to take place are completed to make way for the expansion. It will be an ATL like configuration. Also, some of the work needed for T-5 expansion has already begun.


How do you know this? The preliminary plans released at the end of September look nothing like the ATL configuration.

Also, when will they break ground on the Terminal 5 expansion?
 
klemma24
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:19 am

ADrum23 wrote:
klemma24 wrote:
Look for the terminal re-configuration to start working its way westbound once 15/33 closes and a lot of airfield projects that need to take place are completed to make way for the expansion. It will be an ATL like configuration. Also, some of the work needed for T-5 expansion has already begun.


How do you know this? The preliminary plans released at the end of September look nothing like the ATL configuration.

Also, when will they break ground on the Terminal 5 expansion?



Yes, you are right, it doesn't look completely like ATL, it is ORD's version trying to take advantage of current terminals and infrastructure already in place. That way it lessens the impact on the airfield and airlines. Lot of planning still taking place. So maybe a bit over the top on my part to call it like ATL

I have not heard when T-5 will break ground.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:44 am

klemma24 wrote:
it is ORD's version trying to take advantage of current terminals and infrastructure already in place. That way it lessens the impact on the airfield and airlines. Lot of planning still taking place.


Which is really stupid on ORD's part IMO. They are wasting a golden opportunity to remake itself into a truly world-class airport. The current terminal layout and the underlying infrastructure is obsolete. As I stated above, the smart thing to do would be to do a phased full demolition of everything except Terminal 5, and rebuild/reconfigure the airport with island concourses from east to west like ATL.
 
nomorerjs
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:24 am

If it makes sense, Rham won’t do it. The only reason ORD terminal expansion will happen is because it benefits the unions that own Chicago and Illinois and keep the state so in debt and losing jobs to right-to-Work neighboring states.

Unions are so in control of Illinois. The unions tried to push a law that would allow for jail time for officials that suppprt right-to-Work zones. It was vetoed, and came within 1 vote of being over ridden.

And they wonder why people and jobs are bolting the state! Illinois is the most unfriendly job state in the country. Even liberal Amazon won’t put HQ2 there to the nonsense.
 
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william
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:38 am

klemma24 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
klemma24 wrote:
Look for the terminal re-configuration to start working its way westbound once 15/33 closes and a lot of airfield projects that need to take place are completed to make way for the expansion. It will be an ATL like configuration. Also, some of the work needed for T-5 expansion has already begun.


How do you know this? The preliminary plans released at the end of September look nothing like the ATL configuration.

Also, when will they break ground on the Terminal 5 expansion?



Yes, you are right, it doesn't look completely like ATL, it is ORD's version trying to take advantage of current terminals and infrastructure already in place. That way it lessens the impact on the airfield and airlines. Lot of planning still taking place. So maybe a bit over the top on my part to call it like ATL

I have not heard when T-5 will break ground.


ORD's ATL setup

Image

Some of the buildings at ORD are closing in on 50 years old, even T1 (Terminal of Tomorrow) majors subsystems should be coming up to the end of life times. Time to start fresh, the pic does that and so does this.

Image
 
jbs2886
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:55 am

ADrum23 wrote:
klemma24 wrote:
it is ORD's version trying to take advantage of current terminals and infrastructure already in place. That way it lessens the impact on the airfield and airlines. Lot of planning still taking place.


Which is really stupid on ORD's part IMO. They are wasting a golden opportunity to remake itself into a truly world-class airport. The current terminal layout and the underlying infrastructure is obsolete. As I stated above, the smart thing to do would be to do a phased full demolition of everything except Terminal 5, and rebuild/reconfigure the airport with island concourses from east to west like ATL.


I disagree. While I would love to see something completely new, its simply not practical, therefore, I can't say its "stupid" or "wasting a golden opportunity." ORD is highly constrained with gate capacity, doing a phased full demolition would only exacerbate that issue. I certainly don't want reduced flights and cutting destinations. Moreover, given the size of the airport, such a process would take decades. Finally, the cost of that would be astronomical and as discussed above, the airlines are already pushing back on costs and given the view on taxes here in Chicago (Democrat, Republican, Independent, whatever...we're all fed up), there is no way this area would agree to fund such an enormous project. While maybe the current plan isn't flashy, its practical and is trying to make things better.
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:03 am

FYI, I just noticed that Google maps has finally updated their satellite version of ORD! Appears to be Spring 2017. Some new things not seen on the previous version.

The demolition of runway14L/32R.
The construction of the Consolidated Car Rental Facility and Extension of the ATS.
The beginning of the T3 new gate construction.
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:21 pm

Just to clarify about the Google Maps... I was looking at my iPhone Google Maps app which has the new satellite version. I was just on my Google Chrome browser looking at the Google Maps and it is the old satellite image :(

But in comparing the two maps, some other elements that are new:

Demolition of some existing structures and pavement for the eastern end of future runway 9C/27C
The new cargo facility on the east side between runways 9R/27L and 9L/27R (where the military facility used to be)
Demolition of the large facility to the east of T5 in preparation for the expansion of T5. There is quite a bit of room there!
 
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United787
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Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:50 pm

And to anyone who thinks that ORD is just sitting, falling behind, I ask you to name another airport in the US with a larger redevelopment project in the past decade. These are all of the things that had to (or will be) completed before any work to the terminals could be begin:

Three completely new runways (with a 4th under construction)
Extension of two existing runways
Miles of new taxiways in conjunction with the new runways
Two neighborhoods purchased, 2,800 people relocated and homes demolished
One cemetery moved (900 bodies)
A creek rerouted
A major road rerouted (Irving Park Rd.)
A railroad rerouted
Miles of access roads rerouted
Seven new tunnels/bridges (by my count)
Two runways decommissioned (with one to go)
Two new control towers
The demolition of and construction of several new cargo facilities (FexEd & Globe Air Cargo)
The demolition of and construction of several new airline hangers (United and American??) (underway)
Numerous other airport facilities demolished and reconstructed

In addition:
An extension of the ATS line.
A consolidated car rental facility
A large new cargo facility on the east side

And this is just from memory and does include any of the terminal work with which some people are judging.

The work completed to date is enormous and has raised the costs of operating at the airport. The City and airlines need to be conservative on the rest of the terminal redevelopment because if they make the landing fees etc. to expensive, it will defeat the purpose of all this work. T1 and T5 are beautiful terminals, IMHO, and don't need to be replaced yet. Upgrades need to be done and is being done to both. T2 is toast and I imagine T3 will eventually go, just not with the project. Keep in mind that the T2 and T3 main terminal buildings have been added to in the front and will likely remain no matter what. Completely rebuilding all of the terminals like you have shown would raise the costs of the project to unsustainable level and although I would love for everything to be brand spanking new, it isn't the world we live in.

Also, as to the above ATL layout for ORD... Chicago has a huge amount of O&D (much bigger than ATL) and so the amount of drop off space needs to be a lot larger than you show. Also, the size of the main terminals buildings need to be larger in proportion to the concourses than what ATL has. ATL is primarily a connection airport so their layout works for them. ATL is not the end all be all for airports...
 
ORDfan
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Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:33 pm

muralir wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
They better get something going, it is appalling how much ORD has fallen behind.


In ORD's defense, they *are* just finishing a massive $10bil reconfiguration of their runways. there was no point in redoing terminals until the runways were completed and the new space was freed up.

Quite frankly, I'd rather take the runway expansion over terminal expansion, merely because runways are always much harder to build (local opposition, usually needs land acquisition, etc.). No other airport has managed a similar runway expansion, which is the equivalent of adding the capacity of DFW or JFK onto ORD's already huge operations.

Now that that's complete, it's a much easier process to redo the terminals which will be happening over the next 5-10 years or so.


Could not agree more... the heavy lifting has been done. Terminal expansion is on the way.

But @ADrum23: what megahubs are you flying to that ORD is so 'appallingly' behind, seriously? What megahub that handles over 70 millions passenger a year in America is so wonderful? JFK and LAX are both a hodge-podge mishmash of old and new, and nice and less-than-nice terminals..... just like ORD.

Ok we get it: T2 and T3 need to be redone, but the checkin areas of both are newer and nicer than EWR, on par with anything I've seen at IAH or PHL for that matter. Yes I see SFO has revamped all their terminals but they handle 2/3's of ORD's annual traffic. LAX terminal 6 is pretty blah to me, and the shopping mall arcade style of the international hall feels ugly to me, and so is DFW Terminal C with those gross tiles everywhere (supposedly going to start remodeling).. And you've been to LGA, right?? Concourse J at MIA is one of the creepiest places I've ever been to, period, and it's new!! I hate ATL's narrow, cattle-car, truck-loading-pier style terminal layout and I would never want to see that at ORD. I like T1 and T5 as they are, and most of the lounges in both have been remodeled. I'd put ORD's new lounges on par with any other lounge I've seen Stateside, bar none.
 
ORDfan
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:40 pm

United787 wrote:
And to anyone who thinks that ORD is just sitting, falling behind, I ask you to name another airport in the US with a larger redevelopment project in the past decade. These are all of the things that had to (or will be) completed before any work to the terminals could be begin.


Well said sir, great recap. No one can tell me that Chicago doesn't look to continually invest and improve in its airport infrastructure. The city knows what an economic engine airports can be. The ORD modernization is a decades long program and the airfield has come a long way, and the point I'd like to make is the city is still making improvements! Maybe not fast enough for some posters/passengers, but still, improvements are a constant them: some have been and others are being made. Same goes for Midway, which I already think is one of the better domestic-focused hubs in America.

I think T1 and T5 are awesome as well, btw. Would hate to see an ATL-style terminal complex at ORD, which thankfully, doesn't appear to be the case going forward.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:31 pm

ORDfan wrote:
muralir wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
They better get something going, it is appalling how much ORD has fallen behind.


In ORD's defense, they *are* just finishing a massive $10bil reconfiguration of their runways. there was no point in redoing terminals until the runways were completed and the new space was freed up.

Quite frankly, I'd rather take the runway expansion over terminal expansion, merely because runways are always much harder to build (local opposition, usually needs land acquisition, etc.). No other airport has managed a similar runway expansion, which is the equivalent of adding the capacity of DFW or JFK onto ORD's already huge operations.

Now that that's complete, it's a much easier process to redo the terminals which will be happening over the next 5-10 years or so.


Could not agree more... the heavy lifting has been done. Terminal expansion is on the way.

But @ADrum23: what megahubs are you flying to that ORD is so 'appallingly' behind, seriously? What megahub that handles over 70 millions passenger a year in America is so wonderful? JFK and LAX are both a hodge-podge mishmash of old and new, and nice and less-than-nice terminals..... just like ORD.

Ok we get it: T2 and T3 need to be redone, but the checkin areas of both are newer and nicer than EWR, on par with anything I've seen at IAH or PHL for that matter. Yes I see SFO has revamped all their terminals but they handle 2/3's of ORD's annual traffic. LAX terminal 6 is pretty blah to me, and the shopping mall arcade style of the international hall feels ugly to me, and so is DFW Terminal C with those gross tiles everywhere (supposedly going to start remodeling).. And you've been to LGA, right?? Concourse J at MIA is one of the creepiest places I've ever been to, period, and it's new!! I hate ATL's narrow, cattle-car, truck-loading-pier style terminal layout and I would never want to see that at ORD. I like T1 and T5 as they are, and most of the lounges in both have been remodeled. I'd put ORD's new lounges on par with any other lounge I've seen Stateside, bar none.


Let me clarify something, I am referring to purely to the terminals when I say appallingly behind. The rest of the airport is great, they've done a fantastic job on the much-needed runway reconfiguration and I can't wait for the rest of it to be done. Same with the new consolidated rental car facility. And let me also be clear, I am not saying this in criticism of ORD, I am originally from the Chicago area and have been through ORD many times over the years, I want to see it succeed.

However, I fear that they are botching this terminal revamp and are not going far enough. Yes, most of the terminals (with the exception of Terminal 5) are obsolete in the sense that they have outdated configurations (referring to the Y shaped layouts of Terminals 2 and 3) and they lack amenities (mostly in Terminal 2). Even Terminal 1, while still nice, is showing its age in some areas. All I want ORD to do here is to think big (not be incrementally-minded) and use this once-in-a-generation opportunity to revamp the airport so it can remain a top airport for years to come. You may hate it, but rebuilding ORD into an ATL-style "cattle car, truck-loading-pier" style terminals would improve traffic flow at the airport much better than anything they could do with the existing layout. This being said, I know this probably won't happen.

I took a second look at the current preliminary plans, and they don't look that bad on second glance. The only things I have an issue with are the fact that nothing is being done with Terminal 3 (still will retain its Y shaped layout) and they are a little vague about western access (they mention some sort of western parking/screening facility, but nothing concrete).
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2412
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:40 pm

ADrum23 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:
muralir wrote:

In ORD's defense, they *are* just finishing a massive $10bil reconfiguration of their runways. there was no point in redoing terminals until the runways were completed and the new space was freed up.

Quite frankly, I'd rather take the runway expansion over terminal expansion, merely because runways are always much harder to build (local opposition, usually needs land acquisition, etc.). No other airport has managed a similar runway expansion, which is the equivalent of adding the capacity of DFW or JFK onto ORD's already huge operations.

Now that that's complete, it's a much easier process to redo the terminals which will be happening over the next 5-10 years or so.


Could not agree more... the heavy lifting has been done. Terminal expansion is on the way.

But @ADrum23: what megahubs are you flying to that ORD is so 'appallingly' behind, seriously? What megahub that handles over 70 millions passenger a year in America is so wonderful? JFK and LAX are both a hodge-podge mishmash of old and new, and nice and less-than-nice terminals..... just like ORD.

Ok we get it: T2 and T3 need to be redone, but the checkin areas of both are newer and nicer than EWR, on par with anything I've seen at IAH or PHL for that matter. Yes I see SFO has revamped all their terminals but they handle 2/3's of ORD's annual traffic. LAX terminal 6 is pretty blah to me, and the shopping mall arcade style of the international hall feels ugly to me, and so is DFW Terminal C with those gross tiles everywhere (supposedly going to start remodeling).. And you've been to LGA, right?? Concourse J at MIA is one of the creepiest places I've ever been to, period, and it's new!! I hate ATL's narrow, cattle-car, truck-loading-pier style terminal layout and I would never want to see that at ORD. I like T1 and T5 as they are, and most of the lounges in both have been remodeled. I'd put ORD's new lounges on par with any other lounge I've seen Stateside, bar none.


Let me clarify something, I am referring to purely to the terminals when I say appallingly behind. The rest of the airport is great, they've done a fantastic job on the much-needed runway reconfiguration and I can't wait for the rest of it to be done. Same with the new consolidated rental car facility. And let me also be clear, I am not saying this in criticism of ORD, I am originally from the Chicago area and have been through ORD many times over the years, I want to see it succeed.

However, I fear that they are botching this terminal revamp and are not going far enough. Yes, most of the terminals (with the exception of Terminal 5) are obsolete in the sense that they have outdated configurations (referring to the Y shaped layouts of Terminals 2 and 3) and they lack amenities (mostly in Terminal 2). Even Terminal 1, while still nice, is showing its age in some areas. All I want ORD to do here is to think big (not be incrementally-minded) and use this once-in-a-generation opportunity to revamp the airport so it can remain a top airport for years to come. You may hate it, but rebuilding ORD into an ATL-style "cattle car, truck-loading-pier" style terminals would improve traffic flow at the airport much better than anything they could do with the existing layout. This being said, I know this probably won't happen.

I took a second look at the current preliminary plans, and they don't look that bad on second glance. The only things I have an issue with are the fact that nothing is being done with Terminal 3 (still will retain its Y shaped layout) and they are a little vague about western access (they mention some sort of western parking/screening facility, but nothing concrete).


The point is that "thinking big" for an airport the size of ORD and with the constraints of ORD is prohibitively expensive. Something new and flashy would be great, its just not practical or feasible for a variety of reasons: (1) costs, either airlines or taxpayers pay, neither will for that; (2) not enough space for a dramatic thing and US laws require fair compensation to take land, increasing costs; (3) ORD is a pretty well run operation and unless they increased space to start over, it would cause so many headaches for years.
 
klemma24
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:50 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:49 am

I would love for ORD to go big or go home but, I just don't think it's going to happen. I think it comes down to the almighty dollar and ORD is not made of money (though sometimes it seems like it) and they have to negotiate with the airlines and issue bonds to pay for these things. So maybe it's not a complete teardown and rebuild but, its something in the right direction that will allow the airport to compete and continue to grow. This is only the 10-year plan so I do see room for growth in the proposed layout.

ORD/OMP have done an insane amount in the last decade: 3 brand new runways, 1 runway extension, another runway being built, and another extension in the works. The airport is infinitely safer and more efficient from an airfield perspective. The next step is to improve the terminal & ramp operations. That is why you will see a large deicing pad start to really take shape on the West edge of the airfield to improve winter delays and additional taxiway changes to help make ORD more 380 & 747-8 friendly.

There are plenty of projects still in the planning stages but with 6 mos construction windows each year it just takes time.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11223
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:45 am

If we're mad that ORD is not a huge goliath of an airport unlike some others we could mention, let's face it, blame United Airlines.

Face it. They've been in the driver's seat for years and they're the ones going down the road going 15 under the speed limit while everyone else is flying on by.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:06 am

jbs2886 wrote:
ADrum23 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:

Could not agree more... the heavy lifting has been done. Terminal expansion is on the way.

But @ADrum23: what megahubs are you flying to that ORD is so 'appallingly' behind, seriously? What megahub that handles over 70 millions passenger a year in America is so wonderful? JFK and LAX are both a hodge-podge mishmash of old and new, and nice and less-than-nice terminals..... just like ORD.

Ok we get it: T2 and T3 need to be redone, but the checkin areas of both are newer and nicer than EWR, on par with anything I've seen at IAH or PHL for that matter. Yes I see SFO has revamped all their terminals but they handle 2/3's of ORD's annual traffic. LAX terminal 6 is pretty blah to me, and the shopping mall arcade style of the international hall feels ugly to me, and so is DFW Terminal C with those gross tiles everywhere (supposedly going to start remodeling).. And you've been to LGA, right?? Concourse J at MIA is one of the creepiest places I've ever been to, period, and it's new!! I hate ATL's narrow, cattle-car, truck-loading-pier style terminal layout and I would never want to see that at ORD. I like T1 and T5 as they are, and most of the lounges in both have been remodeled. I'd put ORD's new lounges on par with any other lounge I've seen Stateside, bar none.


Let me clarify something, I am referring to purely to the terminals when I say appallingly behind. The rest of the airport is great, they've done a fantastic job on the much-needed runway reconfiguration and I can't wait for the rest of it to be done. Same with the new consolidated rental car facility. And let me also be clear, I am not saying this in criticism of ORD, I am originally from the Chicago area and have been through ORD many times over the years, I want to see it succeed.

However, I fear that they are botching this terminal revamp and are not going far enough. Yes, most of the terminals (with the exception of Terminal 5) are obsolete in the sense that they have outdated configurations (referring to the Y shaped layouts of Terminals 2 and 3) and they lack amenities (mostly in Terminal 2). Even Terminal 1, while still nice, is showing its age in some areas. All I want ORD to do here is to think big (not be incrementally-minded) and use this once-in-a-generation opportunity to revamp the airport so it can remain a top airport for years to come. You may hate it, but rebuilding ORD into an ATL-style "cattle car, truck-loading-pier" style terminals would improve traffic flow at the airport much better than anything they could do with the existing layout. This being said, I know this probably won't happen.

I took a second look at the current preliminary plans, and they don't look that bad on second glance. The only things I have an issue with are the fact that nothing is being done with Terminal 3 (still will retain its Y shaped layout) and they are a little vague about western access (they mention some sort of western parking/screening facility, but nothing concrete).


The point is that "thinking big" for an airport the size of ORD and with the constraints of ORD is prohibitively expensive. Something new and flashy would be great, its just not practical or feasible for a variety of reasons: (1) costs, either airlines or taxpayers pay, neither will for that; (2) not enough space for a dramatic thing and US laws require fair compensation to take land, increasing costs; (3) ORD is a pretty well run operation and unless they increased space to start over, it would cause so many headaches for years.


Space and operations aren't really an issue, they have plenty of land to the west to do something big if they wanted to. I think the only issue is money, and UA/AA probably don't want to spend too much after forking over big $$$ for the runway reconfiguration. I just wish AA would do something with Terminal 3 along with what is being proposed.
 
CHI2DFW
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 1:44 am

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:53 am

stlgph wrote:
If we're mad that ORD is not a huge goliath of an airport unlike some others we could mention, let's face it, blame United Airlines.

Face it. They've been in the driver's seat for years and they're the ones going down the road going 15 under the speed limit while everyone else is flying on by.


UA and AA have a nice duopoly at ORD that survived the WN “not a hub” operation at MDW.

The status quo is working and gates haven’t been added in decades.

This will change next year when the exclusive gate contracts end. Expect movement on the terminal redevelopment (desperately needed since the layout is 60 years old and the runways are almost done).

2018 will be the year decisions make ORD a hub of the future, or a rust belt city destined to die. Let’s revust this in 1 year.
 
ORDfan
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Chicago Aviation News [Sep 29]: 30 New Gates

Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:57 pm

ADrum23 wrote:

Let me clarify something, I am referring to purely to the terminals when I say appallingly behind. The rest of the airport is great, they've done a fantastic job on the much-needed runway reconfiguration and I can't wait for the rest of it to be done. Same with the new consolidated rental car facility. And let me also be clear, I am not saying this in criticism of ORD, I am originally from the Chicago area and have been through ORD many times over the years, I want to see it succeed.

However, I fear that they are botching this terminal revamp and are not going far enough. Yes, most of the terminals (with the exception of Terminal 5) are obsolete in the sense that they have outdated configurations (referring to the Y shaped layouts of Terminals 2 and 3) and they lack amenities (mostly in Terminal 2). Even Terminal 1, while still nice, is showing its age in some areas. All I want ORD to do here is to think big (not be incrementally-minded) and use this once-in-a-generation opportunity to revamp the airport so it can remain a top airport for years to come. You may hate it, but rebuilding ORD into an ATL-style "cattle car, truck-loading-pier" style terminals would improve traffic flow at the airport much better than anything they could do with the existing layout. This being said, I know this probably won't happen.

I took a second look at the current preliminary plans, and they don't look that bad on second glance. The only things I have an issue with are the fact that nothing is being done with Terminal 3 (still will retain its Y shaped layout) and they are a little vague about western access (they mention some sort of western parking/screening facility, but nothing concrete).


I understand where you're coming from: I don't mean to come off too defense or argumentative. I do think everyone in this thread has some interest in seeing ORD (and MDW) thrive and everyone has different thoughts on how to get there. I guess my point with my terminal rant was that every major airport in America has its warts and they are all in varying stages of terminal improvement. I love T5 and I think T1 is still pretty nice, but sure, it could use a nip/tuck: fresh carpets, new chairs, and a good window cleaning and I think it'd be good as new. Subjectively, I don't think T3 is that bad but I can see where one would think it's not quite up to speed, and I agree: T2 is the worst of the bunch.

However, I'm not convinced the Y terminal layout is as obsolete as you do, and I'm further not convinced that the pier-style is the best appropriation of space. I would reference the new Changi design to show how they plan to use the Y shape to great affect, and the same is true for Hong Kong as well.

Speaking of improvements, Crains has a new image that details the revamped food court and terminal entry hall. I think it looks awesome! I love the promenade-like area with the trees. I'm mind-boggled by the folks complaining about the lack of fast food: I think they new layout will be great, and glad to see some higher-calibre dining options. If the Dunkin Donuts stays, I'll be even happier! Haha

Image
 
planespotter20
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:45 pm

My hopes are for a complete revamp of T2 and T3, with a major-ish facelift on T1 (updated interiors, new windows, and “small” stuff like that can go a long way to make it seem modern). I like the looks of T5 as it is now, with the different layout that changed a while ago. Hopefully a similar thing can happen with T1 (in terms of facelift) while not destroying the unique architecture that they have.

The western access sounds interesting, especially for me because I’m from Wisconsin and use ORD as my gateway to Europe when I travel so I’m always coming down on I-90 and could use the western access point.

Fingers crossed we will see some more concrete information/renders by end of 2017-mid 2018
 
stlgph
Posts: 11223
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:08 pm

CHI2DFW wrote:
stlgph wrote:
If we're mad that ORD is not a huge goliath of an airport unlike some others we could mention, let's face it, blame United Airlines.

Face it. They've been in the driver's seat for years and they're the ones going down the road going 15 under the speed limit while everyone else is flying on by.


UA and AA have a nice duopoly at ORD that survived the WN “not a hub” operation at MDW.

The status quo is working and gates haven’t been added in decades.

This will change next year when the exclusive gate contracts end. Expect movement on the terminal redevelopment (desperately needed since the layout is 60 years old and the runways are almost done).

2018 will be the year decisions make ORD a hub of the future, or a rust belt city destined to die. Let’s revust this in 1 year.


That's just it. United *hasn't* been a leader. They've been sitting around doing the minimum. Granted, that minimum is still respectable of size of an operation, but it isn't what it could be.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
ILS28ORD
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:30 pm

CHI2DFW wrote:
stlgph wrote:
If we're mad that ORD is not a huge goliath of an airport unlike some others we could mention, let's face it, blame United Airlines.

Face it. They've been in the driver's seat for years and they're the ones going down the road going 15 under the speed limit while everyone else is flying on by.


UA and AA have a nice duopoly at ORD that survived the WN “not a hub” operation at MDW.

The status quo is working and gates haven’t been added in decades.

This will change next year when the exclusive gate contracts end. Expect movement on the terminal redevelopment (desperately needed since the layout is 60 years old and the runways are almost done).

2018 will be the year decisions make ORD a hub of the future, or a rust belt city destined to die. Let’s revust this in 1 year.


Rust belt city destined to die is not in the cards one way or another. Some expansion will be agreed upon but the demise of Chicago or ORD as a global gateway is not going to happen. It would be nice to see AA expand both internationally and domestically when the RJs stop using H/K gates and AA has more new 787s to utilize. It may not be the terminal expansions some hope for, but neither AA or UA is downsizing, if anything, they'll have room to grow. DL wants to be expand, and so do NK and Frontier.
 
planespotter20
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:31 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
CHI2DFW wrote:
stlgph wrote:
If we're mad that ORD is not a huge goliath of an airport unlike some others we could mention, let's face it, blame United Airlines.

Face it. They've been in the driver's seat for years and they're the ones going down the road going 15 under the speed limit while everyone else is flying on by.


UA and AA have a nice duopoly at ORD that survived the WN “not a hub” operation at MDW.

The status quo is working and gates haven’t been added in decades.

This will change next year when the exclusive gate contracts end. Expect movement on the terminal redevelopment (desperately needed since the layout is 60 years old and the runways are almost done).

2018 will be the year decisions make ORD a hub of the future, or a rust belt city destined to die. Let’s revust this in 1 year.


Rust belt city destined to die is not in the cards one way or another. Some expansion will be agreed upon but the demise of Chicago or ORD as a global gateway is not going to happen. It would be nice to see AA expand both internationally and domestically when the RJs stop using H/K gates and AA has more new 787s to utilize. It may not be the terminal expansions some hope for, but neither AA or UA is downsizing, if anything, they'll have room to grow. DL wants to be expand, and so do NK and Frontier.


Agreed. Once all the other carriers move away from T3 (when is that happening btw) AA will have lots more space to expand. Additionally, the new extension that should be complete soon will also give AA more space. It doesn’t seem to me like AA is neglecting ORD at all, they’re just at full capacity and doing everything they can to gain some more room.
 
ILS28ORD
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:22 pm

planespotter20 wrote:
ILS28ORD wrote:
CHI2DFW wrote:

UA and AA have a nice duopoly at ORD that survived the WN “not a hub” operation at MDW.

The status quo is working and gates haven’t been added in decades.

This will change next year when the exclusive gate contracts end. Expect movement on the terminal redevelopment (desperately needed since the layout is 60 years old and the runways are almost done).

2018 will be the year decisions make ORD a hub of the future, or a rust belt city destined to die. Let’s revust this in 1 year.


Rust belt city destined to die is not in the cards one way or another. Some expansion will be agreed upon but the demise of Chicago or ORD as a global gateway is not going to happen. It would be nice to see AA expand both internationally and domestically when the RJs stop using H/K gates and AA has more new 787s to utilize. It may not be the terminal expansions some hope for, but neither AA or UA is downsizing, if anything, they'll have room to grow. DL wants to be expand, and so do NK and Frontier.


Agreed. Once all the other carriers move away from T3 (when is that happening btw) AA will have lots more space to expand. Additionally, the new extension that should be complete soon will also give AA more space. It doesn’t seem to me like AA is neglecting ORD at all, they’re just at full capacity and doing everything they can to gain some more room.


Not until T5's 9 gate expansion is complete, so years. I somewhat disagree that they are not neglecting ORD currently in the recent past. They dropped many mainline destinations down to Eagle with MSY being the latest one. Also they reduced international year around destinations and capacity. The only thing they can really do from here is expand.
 
planespotter20
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:12 pm

ILS28ORD wrote:
planespotter20 wrote:
ILS28ORD wrote:

Rust belt city destined to die is not in the cards one way or another. Some expansion will be agreed upon but the demise of Chicago or ORD as a global gateway is not going to happen. It would be nice to see AA expand both internationally and domestically when the RJs stop using H/K gates and AA has more new 787s to utilize. It may not be the terminal expansions some hope for, but neither AA or UA is downsizing, if anything, they'll have room to grow. DL wants to be expand, and so do NK and Frontier.


Agreed. Once all the other carriers move away from T3 (when is that happening btw) AA will have lots more space to expand. Additionally, the new extension that should be complete soon will also give AA more space. It doesn’t seem to me like AA is neglecting ORD at all, they’re just at full capacity and doing everything they can to gain some more room.


Not until T5's 9 gate expansion is complete, so years. I somewhat disagree that they are not neglecting ORD currently in the recent past. They dropped many mainline destinations down to Eagle with MSY being the latest one. Also they reduced international year around destinations and capacity. The only thing they can really do from here is expand.


While that is true, I think a reason for this is that ORD is sort of a stalemate, very few things can happen when it is running at full capacity. So AA downsized it’s operations to help grow another area. Once ORD expands and switches happen, I’m positive the new space will be quickly utilized, and ORD will require more space once more.

AA switched almost all LH flights to 787s from ORD, which I think shows that they have confidence and ORD is a key market for them. There’s also that hangar that’s getting built, and the 5 gate expansion. Additionally, the terminal switch happening in a few years will secure T3 as all AA + Select OW partners, giving a lot of oppurtinty for growth. Let’s hope they utilize it.

How many a380-capable Gates is the expansion to T5 adding?
 
DanM64
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:57 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:30 am

planespotter20 wrote:
How many a380-capable Gates is the expansion to T5 adding?

I believe just one.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:04 am

DanM64 wrote:
planespotter20 wrote:
How many a380-capable Gates is the expansion to T5 adding?

I believe just one.


They'll probably need to add some A380-compatible gates in the revamped Terminal 2 as well.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:10 am

Why waste money building A380 gates? It's painfully obvious that is not the aircraft of the future. It's a dying aircraft that will largely be gone from the skies in 10 years. No reason to build out for that.

Now, if they want to build to accommodate generally larger wingspans, that would be smart. But building specifically for the A380 is a waste of time, money, and space.
 
ORDfan
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:02 am

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:45 pm

DanM64 wrote:
planespotter20 wrote:
How many a380-capable Gates is the expansion to T5 adding?

I believe just one.


Yep it's been reported that M11 was the gate that was modified for A380. I believe Emirates did a test-run last year, and of course as you likely know, BA is bringing the big bird next year.

Rdh3e wrote:
Why waste money building A380 gates? It's painfully obvious that is not the aircraft of the future. It's a dying aircraft that will largely be gone from the skies in 10 years. No reason to build out for that.

Now, if they want to build to accommodate generally larger wingspans, that would be smart. But building specifically for the A380 is a waste of time, money, and space.


Completely agree there. While ORD is a little late to getting the A380 in her service life, an unfortunate reality is that, as many recent article's have noted, the plane may only have another decade or less of viable service life among existing operators (Singapore just parked the first one). It's been printed that Emirates, Lufthansa, and Korean have all expressed interest in bringing the A380 to ORD...we'll see how that looks after British gets going. Don't think one gate would be sufficient in that case, but perhaps the airport could look at adding one more A380-capable gate (maybe M8 or M7?) at T5 if those other airlines get serious, but not sure the A380 needs to be part of the long-term planning for T1/T2/T3 revamp: one or two gates at T5 would likely suffice for the remainder of her service life.
 
DanM64
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:57 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:44 am

ORDfan wrote:
Yep it's been reported that M11 was the gate that was modified for A380. I believe Emirates did a test-run last year, and of course as you likely know, BA is bringing the big bird next year.

I believe he's referring to the new gates at T5 which haven't been built yet.

Currently, ORD has one A380 gate- M11/M11A. Sooner or later, they're going to expand T5 to the east, adding 9 new gates. One of those 9 will be an A380 gate, so ORD will have 2 once the T5 expansiom is complete.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:11 am

ORDfan wrote:
DanM64 wrote:
planespotter20 wrote:
How many a380-capable Gates is the expansion to T5 adding?

I believe just one.


Yep it's been reported that M11 was the gate that was modified for A380. I believe Emirates did a test-run last year, and of course as you likely know, BA is bringing the big bird next year.

Rdh3e wrote:
Why waste money building A380 gates? It's painfully obvious that is not the aircraft of the future. It's a dying aircraft that will largely be gone from the skies in 10 years. No reason to build out for that.

Now, if they want to build to accommodate generally larger wingspans, that would be smart. But building specifically for the A380 is a waste of time, money, and space.


Completely agree there. While ORD is a little late to getting the A380 in her service life, an unfortunate reality is that, as many recent article's have noted, the plane may only have another decade or less of viable service life among existing operators (Singapore just parked the first one). It's been printed that Emirates, Lufthansa, and Korean have all expressed interest in bringing the A380 to ORD...we'll see how that looks after British gets going. Don't think one gate would be sufficient in that case, but perhaps the airport could look at adding one more A380-capable gate (maybe M8 or M7?) at T5 if those other airlines get serious, but not sure the A380 needs to be part of the long-term planning for T1/T2/T3 revamp: one or two gates at T5 would likely suffice for the remainder of her service life.


I don’t think the A380s that BA or LH have will be going anywhere within the next decade, they aren’t that old and are still useful on some routes. If UA and AA are serious about allowing better connections between international and domestic flights via a revamped T2, then the revamped T2 will need one A380 compatible gate, as both of their biggest partners (LH and BA) fly the bird. Adding an additional A380 gate at Terminal 5 for Star Alliance and Oneworld carriers that fly the A380 would defeat the purpose of revamping Terminal 2.
 
ADrum23
Posts: 1789
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:12 am

DanM64 wrote:
ORDfan wrote:
Yep it's been reported that M11 was the gate that was modified for A380. I believe Emirates did a test-run last year, and of course as you likely know, BA is bringing the big bird next year.

I believe he's referring to the new gates at T5 which haven't been built yet.

Currently, ORD has one A380 gate- M11/M11A. Sooner or later, they're going to expand T5 to the east, adding 9 new gates. One of those 9 will be an A380 gate, so ORD will have 2 once the T5 expansiom is complete.


Probably 3 since they’ll need one at the revamped Terminal 2.
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3630
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Re: Chicago Aviation News

Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:20 am

LH can happily fly one of their many other widebodies. There is no case for an A380 gate unless the usage fees the city receives vs the alternative large widebody are greater than the cost of construction plus the value of the incremental source required, and the incremental interest on any borrowing to fund it.

There is no way this calculation actually works out on the cities favor. It's a waste of airport funds.

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