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william
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
parapente wrote:
Thx Karel.
With the other recent pronouncements it does seem the engine(s) will need to be circa 50klbs.So it's a new engine which ever way you look at it.Hence the 'hurry up' from the OEM.
Will be a hard fought battle no doubt about it.The Boeing aspect does imho appear to be coming together for Farnbrough with Engine OEM's to follow that.

Since so much about this program depends on the economics, I would doubt the program announcement would happen until the engine oem is also willing to announce at the same time. Also Farnborough seems to be too early because http://aviationweek.com/singapore-airsh ... s-nma-plan said:

Sources within the company indicate such a move remains far off, as Boeing’s product development team has yet to finalize even a preliminary business case proposal for submission to the board.

A lot would have to come together in time to pull off Farnborough in late July.


I also think that Boeing is blowing a lot smoke past AV weekly and FlightGlobal. Each year Boeing waits, the better the A321NEOLR looks.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:09 pm

225pax and 5000nm
275pax and 4500nm

Hm, I wonder what seating configuration they picked. If it is two class it is a quite big plane.with ~ 260 single class and over ~300 for the bigger version. But then the numbers till change constantly.Before Singapore the tendency seemed to go to something with less than 4000nm range, while this looks like a 767 replacement.
 
texl1649
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:12 pm

GE clearly feels they can/might/likely will (I dunno) win it without having to negotiate with Pratt for a license (yes, this is a big issue; they make it via Avios but PW owns lot's of the IP rights to various ranges and applications, something like a thousand individual patents I think).

Naturally, those patents start expiring within 10 years now, so GE doesn't want to commit long term to an expensive royalty deal on a new family if they don't have to.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
According to UA, a new airplane from Boeing could reach the market in 8 to 10 years.

A potential new mid-sized aircraft being studied by Boeing could reach the market in eight to 10 years, a senior United Airlines executive said on Tuesday.

United is holding off evaluating possible contenders to replace its Boeing 757 and 767 fleet as Boeing ponders whether to launch the new model, but the potential project is likely to “well defined” some time this year, Gerry Laderman, senior vice-president of finance at United Airlines said.


https://www.reuters.com/article/aviatio ... SS8N1O3024

And Muilenburg ( https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ith-trump/ ) gives an interview where he discusses NMA:

Muilenburg said his commercial airplane team will introduce an innovative, highly automated manufacturing system and also a new development process that builds in opportunities for Boeing to sell follow-on services throughout the service life of the airplane.

“It’s more than an airplane,” Muilenburg said. “It’s the production system of the future, the design system of the future, it’s a new life-cycle lens on how we do product development.”

And Muilenburg plays to the audience, while the article suggests NMA will be launched this year:

As it ramps up production, Boeing is unlikely to cut more machinists. And with the launch of a new airplane ahead by 2019, the company could even start staffing up again on engineers late this year.

Muilenburg insisted that “Puget Sound is part of Boeing for the future in a very strong way.”

He re-iterates that the 777X wing plant will be used for other projects so it seems pretty clear that at least the wings and perhaps more will be built at KPAE.


Boeing has been working on this concept for over 30 years, it was called the 7J7, and yes GTF engines were almost part of the concept in the EIGHTIES!
The 797 is a twin aisle tube with slender wings and ultra efficient engines.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1384921&p=20134003&hilit=7j7#p20134003

IMO, the delay is drawing up plans to put this new manufacturing concept and logistics into practice. Get this right and the 797 will be able to hit the price points (even with discounting) and still have a healthy profit margin. Apply this to the 737 replacement, at 60 planes a month, the new plane will be an even bigger cash cow than the 737 is. The 777X is testing some of these concepts now.

One of the reasons this plane is reported to be tied in with the 737 replacement.

Boeing has not control over what response Airbus will come it with (though I am sure Boeing has a pretty good idea what an A321NEO with new slender wings can do), but they can control its cost of manufacture and keep the 797 competitive in sales campaigns.
 
Pendennis
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:33 pm

[Boeing’s intention with the NMA is to deliver at least a 30% cost reduction per seat over the 757, says Tinseth. “We see a market for at least 4,000 units,” he adds.]

Doesn't the A321NEO do that already?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:42 pm

more like 25%.
 
nehalem
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:14 pm

seahawk wrote:
225pax and 5000nm
275pax and 4500nm

Hm, I wonder what seating configuration they picked. If it is two class it is a quite big plane.with ~ 260 single class and over ~300 for the bigger version. But then the numbers till change constantly.Before Singapore the tendency seemed to go to something with less than 4000nm range, while this looks like a 767 replacement.


listed single class for other planes
A321: 199
B757-200: 221
B767-200: 245
B767-300: 290

So its basically a slightly bigger 767. Assuming its 7 abreast, the smaller version would be 767-200+2 rows. Seems reasonable. Designing a 7ab plane with the same capacity as an A321 is not a very good strategy I think.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:22 pm

seahawk wrote:
more like 25%.


only if you assume allready paid for cheap old 757.
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:22 pm

Reuters: Jetmakers battle over niche where Boeing plans new jet says:

But despite winning the 2017 order battle thanks to a record deal for small jets, Airbus took a severe hit in the high-margin wide-body market, where Boeing won three times as many orders.

Airbus has shrugged off the loss, claiming a 50 percent share of average sales over 10 years. But privately, it has made closing the gap its top internal goal this year, sources say.

... which means the push is on to sell A330neos.

Meanwhile Boeing has increased 787 production rate so it has the ability to sell more.

Yet, it still seems to me that both 787 and A330 have twice the range and thus tons of extra weight to carry around the necessary fuel and catering needed for those long flights.

Thus I think they really aren't battling over the NMA's niche.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
Thus I think they really aren't battling over the NMA's niche.


Yet we have Leahy: MOM Market Already Taken By A321neo and many other examples.

At least they are battling in public over the NMA's niche.
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:49 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Thus I think they really aren't battling over the NMA's niche.


Yet we have Leahy: MOM Market Already Taken By A321neo and many other examples.

At least they are battling in public over the NMA's niche.

I'm generally supportive of what Leahy is saying, once you remove his salesman's spin. IMHO A321/+/A322 is the real threat to the NMA business case, not A330neo/B788. The way I read what QF's CEO says, A330 really is a non-starter for the NMA mission. A321 fits somewhat, but has compromises such as lesser capacity and longer boarding times.

Make no mistake: NMA has a narrow market. That's one of the many reasons it is taking Boeing so long to bring it to the market, and it may never go on the market.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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parapente
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:13 pm

It has to be said that waiting a year is probably a good thing- for Boeing.
Right now they have their hands full with .
777x still a massive amount of work to be done
737-10.Not a trivial job with the MLG and the stretch.
787-10 is not quite done and dusted yet.
But in a years time much of this will be completed.
Furthermore.
They are clearly looking to bring a whole new range of manufacturing economics
Some of this is being introduced on the 777 (wing).But just about all aspects are being looked at it seems.
Then there are the engine OEM's.Another year would probably be welcomed by them too.

One issue of course is 767 replacement.They are not getting any younger.So they can't wait too long.
So if not Farnbrough then definitely Paris.
 
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AirCal737
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:29 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
I think 8Y is too wide.

Not really. This has be covered many times in this thread. If we are talking an oval design when looking side on the 8ab will look extremely slim as the height will be fairly low.

From a strength and aircraft loading perspective having a taller fuselage than it is wide is beneficial. A fuselage that is wider than it is high is structurally poor and will require a lot of extra strengthening. So it will have to be fairly short and stubby when looking from the top.

In addition fineness ratio isn't that important. The 8ab would still be within the acceptable fineness ratio range with the 270-300 seats. The 7ab may be a percent better from a fineness ratio and drag perspective. It would be no thicker than a A380, 762 or A320.

The 7ab has one big disadvantage. It is much worse from a seating area perspective. The minimum aisle size is 15". So two 15" aisles is 30" aisle space.

Baseline A320 has one 22" aisle for 6 seats

7ab has 30" of aisle for 7 seats
That is 36% more aisle for only 16.6% more seats.

8ab has 30" of aisle for 8 seats
That is 36% more aisle for 33.3% more seats.

This is a big deal that pretty much guarantees an 8AB cabin even if its a little short and stubby. It definitely can't be 6ab as it would need to be longer than a 757-300.

8ab in a fusalauge slightly longer than the 757-300 is an A330-200/800.
 
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:31 pm

seahawk wrote:
225pax and 5000nm
275pax and 4500nm

Hm, I wonder what seating configuration they picked. If it is two class it is a quite big plane.with ~ 260 single class and over ~300 for the bigger version. But then the numbers till change constantly.Before Singapore the tendency seemed to go to something with less than 4000nm range, while this looks like a 767 replacement.


I choose to interpret the numbers as max seating single class layout. It would make it nearly a 1:1 replacement for 757-200 and 757-300, but with better range.

I still believe Boeing should be focused on a 737 replacement instead of this.
 
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:50 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
I still believe Boeing should be focused on a 737 replacement instead of this.


Not happening any time soon. :shakehead:

Which nonexistent 'magic' engines would Boeing hang on NSA? An all-new 737 replacement launched today might be 5% more efficient than neo/MAX. Boeing would be mad to spend tens of billions on a new plane that doesn't have a step-change improvement in efficiency over neo/MAX and the airlines would not be prepared to pay the premium Boeing would require to recover those billions.

I don't expect to see Boeing's all-new 737 replacement EIS before 2035.
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Noshow
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:01 pm

Some 737 follow on might be sized bigger and start maybe at 180 seats? So a new 250-seater MoM 1.0 might be the future same modular familiy of what comes after the 737 one day.
I see exactly this making the MoM-launch decision quite difficult because it must be right from the beginning, variable for many future variants and it must be cheap enough to be built in large numbers.
 
packsonflight
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:37 pm

Airbus can go after big chunk of the MOM segment with A350 ish carbon wing on the 322, but the big news is that with this new wing we will witness the reincarnation of the 320 family.
This new wing can retrofit into the rest of the 320 family with relative ease production wise, after production issues are sorted out on low volume 322 production line.
 
parapente
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:41 pm

If as Jetbuddy says one chooses to interpret the seat numbers as one class, it isn't just a 752/753 with extra range it's a 767 as well (Simply replacing 2 aircraft types with one super efficient one).It will also most likely kill the 338 stone dead.Because at the (6-7k) longer ranges the 788 has an advantage.
The volume may be in the NB's but the profit is in the WB's - which is where Boeing is headed.
What Airbus have to do is 'chop off' as much of the bottom end of the MOM as they can with their existing NB with hopefully the existing or upgraded engines.
One imagines this is what they are proposing to do with the 'plus' and 'plus-plus'.
Perhaps the former is a straight stretch to 250 pax (but reduced to trancon' range)and the latter a new or revised carbon wing that takes the same pax to 5knm.The latter is probably asking a lot from the engines.But it has to be achieved otherwise you are instantly on the same timetable and cost structure as Boeing.It is 'probably possible' just!
 
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william
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:07 pm

packsonflight wrote:
Airbus can go after big chunk of the MOM segment with A350 ish carbon wing on the 322, but the big news is that with this new wing we will witness the reincarnation of the 320 family.
This new wing can retrofit into the rest of the 320 family with relative ease production wise, after production issues are sorted out on low volume 322 production line.


Thats why Boeing's MOM plane is only half of the solution. How its put together is the other half. Boeing know hows Airbus is going to respond, they probably have a team playing Airbus engineers running numbers on a re winged A320 family and PIP GTFs. The only way for Boeing to match Airbus's lower development costs is in the assembly arena. Like I stated in the earlier thread and you similar, get it right on the lower volume product and exploit it on the higher volume one. Except I am not talking carbon wings, but the whole assembly automated process. Get the margins right and the rest is easy.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:15 pm

scbriml wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I still believe Boeing should be focused on a 737 replacement instead of this.


Not happening any time soon. :shakehead:

Which nonexistent 'magic' engines would Boeing hang on NSA? An all-new 737 replacement launched today might be 5% more efficient than neo/MAX. Boeing would be mad to spend tens of billions on a new plane that doesn't have a step-change improvement in efficiency over neo/MAX and the airlines would not be prepared to pay the premium Boeing would require to recover those billions.

I don't expect to see Boeing's all-new 737 replacement EIS before 2035.


True,with a 5 year backlog why would they.

Someone in another thread had a nice illustration. Airplanes are NOT Iphones. They are expensive and complicated beasts to design and produce. Boeing will want to enjoy its ROI on the MAX line for a while. The same for Airbus, it's not in any hurry to sink billions into another project, time to enjoy some ROI.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:30 pm

scbriml wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I still believe Boeing should be focused on a 737 replacement instead of this.


Not happening any time soon. :shakehead:

Which nonexistent 'magic' engines would Boeing hang on NSA? An all-new 737 replacement launched today might be 5% more efficient than neo/MAX. Boeing would be mad to spend tens of billions on a new plane that doesn't have a step-change improvement in efficiency over neo/MAX and the airlines would not be prepared to pay the premium Boeing would require to recover those billions.

I don't expect to see Boeing's all-new 737 replacement EIS before 2035.


These magic engines you speak of could be on the market in 10 years. New aircraft are rarely based on existing engines. I've laid out my case for a 737 in this thread previously, so I'll just quote myself:

JetBuddy wrote:

46% of the market wants 150-200 seats, and 27% wants 200-250 seats. 13% actually wants less than 150 seats. That sounds more like a 737 replacement to me.

I think developing a new "MoM" aircraft for the 200+ pax market only is a mistake by Boeing. They should focus on developing a three size 737 replacement with 150-250 seats instead. A lot more revenue, and a lot more pressure on Airbus, while the development costs shouldn't be that different.

I would also argue that the 737 replacement - whatever that may be, will be a success regardless of initial problems like we saw with the 787 program. It will also be far larger in revenue potential, and therefore also less risky in terms of over-expenditure on the R&D side and initial EIS problems.


In 10 years the 737 will be 60 years old. I really believe it's time for a whole new clean sheet design to enter the stage. And the market wants a new 737 sized aircraft, not necessarily a 767 replacement.
 
parapente
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:11 pm

Boeing have just ploughed a whole pile of money to create the MAX.p series 7,8,9,Indeed they are now ploughing more with the 737-10x.
One can always argue whether or not thus was the right decision (vs their NSA clean sheet).Personally it seems to have worked but that's not the point.It is a decision made and a sunk investment.They can't turn back now.
In 10 years time - yes they will return with a clean sheet - who knows could well be Hybrid/Graphine by then! - but that's not now.

The one glaring shortfall of MAX is (of course) the one Airbus is exploiting.
Plus 220 seats and plus 3,750 nm.
So that's the point they are starting at.
As stated they also know full well that a rewinged 322 can do 250+ pax and 5knm.So If they do nothing they will loose this market segment as well.
The obvious finishing point is the 788 ,so no surprises 270 max pax.With a range well below the heavy 788 at circa 5knm with engines (50klbs)and structure to match.All state of the art.

Of course 'had' they made the other decision and gone for a clean sheet NSA we would not be hearing a word about any of this.The new aircraft would of course have started at 200 and certainly gone to 250. With no doubt a max range of circa 4.5-5.0 knm. So no real MOM to fill.
But that's not what they did.
Pricing.I think it's clever going for a twin aisle aircraft with engines that can carry -the pax,the cargo and the distances speculated.I think it clouds the pricing issues somewhat as they will be quite different aircraft.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:18 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
225pax and 5000nm
275pax and 4500nm

Hm, I wonder what seating configuration they picked. If it is two class it is a quite big plane.with ~ 260 single class and over ~300 for the bigger version. But then the numbers till change constantly.Before Singapore the tendency seemed to go to something with less than 4000nm range, while this looks like a 767 replacement.


I choose to interpret the numbers as max seating single class layout. It would make it nearly a 1:1 replacement for 757-200 and 757-300, but with better range.

I still believe Boeing should be focused on a 737 replacement instead of this.


225 single class seats, would be a very short plane with 2 aisles. That is a about 32 rows which is more or less 737-8 length.
 
parapente
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:49 pm

Lucky it's not X8 then ;-)
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:57 pm

scbriml wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I still believe Boeing should be focused on a 737 replacement instead of this.


Not happening any time soon. :shakehead:

Which nonexistent 'magic' engines would Boeing hang on NSA? An all-new 737 replacement launched today might be 5% more efficient than neo/MAX. Boeing would be mad to spend tens of billions on a new plane that doesn't have a step-change improvement in efficiency over neo/MAX and the airlines would not be prepared to pay the premium Boeing would require to recover those billions.

I don't expect to see Boeing's all-new 737 replacement EIS before 2035.
Not to mention the 737 is still selling great. Backlog has increased every year this decade and production rate is at an all time high.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:29 pm

AirCal737 wrote:
8ab in a fusalauge slightly longer than the 757-300 is an A330-200/800.

If you read it again I never said the 8AB would be longer than the 757-300.

If it was 6ab it would need to be longer than the 757-300 to get the capacity target. This is too long and skinny.

If it was 8 abreast it would be much shorter for the same capacity target. Similar to a A310.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:30 am

JetBuddy wrote:
These magic engines you speak of could be on the market in 10 years.


Manufactured by whom? PW and CFM aren't interested in creating a replacement for GTF and Leap for a long time yet.

JetBuddy wrote:
And the market wants a new 737 sized aircraft, not necessarily a 767 replacement.


"The market" is currently buying neos and MAXes by the thousand. Who, exactly, is screaming for an "all new 737 sized" plane? Name names.

cledaybuck wrote:
Not to mention the 737 is still selling great. Backlog has increased every year this decade and production rate is at an all time high.


Yep, making hay while the Sun shines. Boeing currently has zero interest in a 737 replacement.
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nry
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:49 am

JetBuddy wrote:
In 10 years the 737 will be 60 years old. I really believe it's time for a whole new clean sheet design to enter the stage. And the market wants a new 737 sized aircraft, not necessarily a 767 replacement.


And in 10 years, the A320 will be 40+ years from its first flight. When are we going to start yelping about the old 1980's era design of this Airbus?

:duck:
 
JustSomeDood
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:39 am

JetBuddy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
225pax and 5000nm
275pax and 4500nm

Hm, I wonder what seating configuration they picked. If it is two class it is a quite big plane.with ~ 260 single class and over ~300 for the bigger version. But then the numbers till change constantly.Before Singapore the tendency seemed to go to something with less than 4000nm range, while this looks like a 767 replacement.


I choose to interpret the numbers as max seating single class layout. It would make it nearly a 1:1 replacement for 757-200 and 757-300, but with better range.

I still believe Boeing should be focused on a 737 replacement instead of this.


A near 1:1 757 replacement would put it well in striking distance of any sort of rewinged/stretched A321, I don't believe that's something Boeing would want, with how optimized and cheap the A321 already is.

The top end of the MOM market would be much easier to approach. Offering similar capacity to A338/788 (for the longer version) while beating the piss outta them on economics for medium haul and offering comparable/cheaper acquisition prices is child's play compared to doing the same for the A321...
 
grbauc
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:06 am

JetBuddy wrote:
scbriml wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
I still believe Boeing should be focused on a 737 replacement instead of this.


Not happening any time soon. :shakehead:

Which nonexistent 'magic' engines would Boeing hang on NSA? An all-new 737 replacement launched today might be 5% more efficient than neo/MAX. Boeing would be mad to spend tens of billions on a new plane that doesn't have a step-change improvement in efficiency over neo/MAX and the airlines would not be prepared to pay the premium Boeing would require to recover those billions.

I don't expect to see Boeing's all-new 737 replacement EIS before 2035.


These magic engines you speak of could be on the market in 10 years. New aircraft are rarely based on existing engines. I've laid out my case for a 737 in this thread previously, so I'll just quote myself:

JetBuddy wrote:

46% of the market wants 150-200 seats, and 27% wants 200-250 seats. 13% actually wants less than 150 seats. That sounds more like a 737 replacement to me.

I think developing a new "MoM" aircraft for the 200+ pax market only is a mistake by Boeing. They should focus on developing a three size 737 replacement with 150-250 seats instead. A lot more revenue, and a lot more pressure on Airbus, while the development costs shouldn't be that different.

I would also argue that the 737 replacement - whatever that may be, will be a success regardless of initial problems like we saw with the 787 program. It will also be far larger in revenue potential, and therefore also less risky in terms of over-expenditure on the R&D side and initial EIS problems.


In 10 years the 737 will be 60 years old. I really believe it's time for a whole new clean sheet design to enter the stage. And the market wants a new 737 sized aircraft, not necessarily a 767 replacement.




The original 737 will be 60 years old, the current one not nearly so.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:40 am

parapente wrote:
Lucky it's not X8 then ;-)


So around 28 rows for the short version and 34 rows for the long one. That is not going to work. Therefore I think the seat numbers are for a 2 class layout. Which would work as 7 or 8 abreast. In 8 abreast it would be about A310-300 length in the short version and around A300-600/A332 for the bigger one.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:19 am

scbriml wrote:
Manufactured by whom? PW and CFM aren't interested in creating a replacement for GTF and Leap for a long time yet.


Really? If Boeing decided to launch a 737 replacement, targeting EIS around 2028 - you think PW or CFM or everyone else would just shrug and go "nah.". You spoke of EIS around 2035 yourself, all I'm saying is that I think they should focus their resources on this instead of a "MoM" aircraft.

scbriml wrote:
"The market" is currently buying neos and MAXes by the thousand. Who, exactly, is screaming for an "all new 737 sized" plane? Name names.


The percentages from my post stems directly from Boeing's own Middle of Market survey, which is posted far earlier in this thread. Go look it up yourself if you're interested. But as you know, Boeing didn't put any airline identities in that survey. So I can't "name names" for you.

nry wrote:
And in 10 years, the A320 will be 40+ years from its first flight. When are we going to start yelping about the old 1980's era design of this Airbus?


Yes, the A320 is showing it's age too. But it's basic design is a generation newer than the 737. Fly-by-wire systems and so on.
 
brindabella
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:19 am

parapente wrote:
It has to be said that waiting a year is probably a good thing- for Boeing.
Right now they have their hands full with .
777x still a massive amount of work to be done
737-10.Not a trivial job with the MLG and the stretch.
787-10 is not quite done and dusted yet.
But in a years time much of this will be completed.
Furthermore.
They are clearly looking to bring a whole new range of manufacturing economics
Some of this is being introduced on the 777 (wing).But just about all aspects are being looked at it seems.


I'm loving it - just 5 minutes ago it seems Boeing was being lambasted for being "staid/timid/whatever".

Now they seem to have developed a full head of steam.

Anyone for a "moon shot"??

:spin: :hyper:

cheers
Billy
 
brindabella
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:33 am

AirCal737 wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
I think 8Y is too wide.

Not really. This has be covered many times in this thread. If we are talking an oval design when looking side on the 8ab will look extremely slim as the height will be fairly low.

From a strength and aircraft loading perspective having a taller fuselage than it is wide is beneficial. A fuselage that is wider than it is high is structurally poor and will require a lot of extra strengthening. So it will have to be fairly short and stubby when looking from the top.

In addition fineness ratio isn't that important. The 8ab would still be within the acceptable fineness ratio range with the 270-300 seats. The 7ab may be a percent better from a fineness ratio and drag perspective. It would be no thicker than a A380, 762 or A320.

The 7ab has one big disadvantage. It is much worse from a seating area perspective. The minimum aisle size is 15". So two 15" aisles is 30" aisle space.

Baseline A320 has one 22" aisle for 6 seats

7ab has 30" of aisle for 7 seats
That is 36% more aisle for only 16.6% more seats.

8ab has 30" of aisle for 8 seats
That is 36% more aisle for 33.3% more seats.

This is a big deal that pretty much guarantees an 8AB cabin even if its a little short and stubby. It definitely can't be 6ab as it would need to be longer than a 757-300.

8ab in a fuselage slightly longer than the 757-300 is an A330-200/800.


Aye, there's the rub.

At 8ab it is not just a 762/763 replacement - it is also an 332/338 competitor, at least over say 4-5,000NM..

I've wondered ever since the A300NEO development was announced as to whether the extra weight, range and expense were really taking the mega-successful A300ceo family away from the "sweet spot". It seemed a bad sign when Airbus conceded that at up to 3,000NM the ceo models were actually MORE economical in terms of fuel burn.

Of course such an NMA is no competition for an A339 - but the 789 would seem yo be a pretty worthy contender in that space.

More popcorn!

:D

cheers
Billy
 
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:35 pm

brindabella wrote:
Aye, there's the rub.

At 8ab it is not just a 762/763 replacement - it is also an 332/338 competitor, at least over say 4-5,000NM.

The A310 has a cabin area perfectly positioned between the 762/763. The A310 has a range and weights half way between the ER and non ER 767 models.

So 8AB can easily hit the capacity requirement quite well. The A310CEO has a range of 5150nm, with next gen engines that would be around 6500nm. So a A310 sized aircraft could be lightened significantly to bring the range down to 5000nm.

Knock 10% off the A310 weights as it would be made with modern composites and knock off another 10% as it's range wouldn't need to be 6500nm. So an empty weight of 65T and a max takeoff weight of 135T would be realistic.

So the numbers for 8AB would work.

A310 length for the long range 5000nm version and A300 length for the 4000nm high capacity version.
 
morrisond
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:42 pm

Yes a 7AB MOM/NSA will have more aisle width than a 3x3 - but in an oval - it's only about 18.5%(163"x185" Oval) more Cross section Area than an A320.

For that extra cross section you could go 1x1x1 with Sleeper seats in the front, a Nice 2x2x2 Transcon Business, that gives you potentially 50% more premium seats - a huge advantage.

Plus it would be shorter than a 3x3 for the same capacity - helping with the bending moment, and also with the skin needing to be thicker than Necessary due to having to account for impact loads - that helps with bending as well.

I think one of the latest concepts was a circular cross section from the floor beams up, with squashed circle on the bottom to hold LD3-45's. That should be buildable in carbon with not too many troubles. You have to figure Boeing has been playing with Carbon Oval Cross Sections for at least a decade - they will have figured it out pretty well if they go this way.

The wing would presumably be quite large and hold a lot of fuel - so that might give you more LD3-45 storage space in the hold vs fuel storage.

The latest concept (Circle top, Squashed Circle on the bottom) would have a higher cross section than a 163"x185" Oval, but you gain a lot in the premium seating to probably make the economics pretty special.

A 7AB would also be much more suitable for the eventual NSA program than 8AB - NSA could be a MOM with probably new Wingbox/Wing, gear and tail, along with probably another 5 years of Carbon optimization to take weight out of it, and experience building the MOM at 10-20 per month before transitioning to build NSA at 50+ per month.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:35 pm

Mentioned before but worth repeating. 737/320 have perfected aerodynamics, power, seating, maintenance, carryon storage, pricing, reliability for 6 abreast single aisle aircraft based on tube and wings. In the process they have grown from a small short legged plane into a near 707 sized models with great medium range capability. It will not be reinvented, and doesn't need to be. They really can't be improved upon (at least not without $Billions, and even then only low single digit improvement)

Boeing (and some of the airlines) is doing the hard preliminary work on a MOM - where in the middle of the market does it fit (there is a big hole, no plane could fill all of it), how flexible in range and size does it need to be, and can it be built at a price profitable for Boeing and the airlines. BIG questions.
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:20 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
brindabella wrote:
Aye, there's the rub.

At 8ab it is not just a 762/763 replacement - it is also an 332/338 competitor, at least over say 4-5,000NM.

The A310 has a cabin area perfectly positioned between the 762/763. The A310 has a range and weights half way between the ER and non ER 767 models.

So 8AB can easily hit the capacity requirement quite well. The A310CEO has a range of 5150nm, with next gen engines that would be around 6500nm. So a A310 sized aircraft could be lightened significantly to bring the range down to 5000nm.

Knock 10% off the A310 weights as it would be made with modern composites and knock off another 10% as it's range wouldn't need to be 6500nm. So an empty weight of 65T and a max takeoff weight of 135T would be realistic.

So the numbers for 8AB would work.

A310 length for the long range 5000nm version and A300 length for the 4000nm high capacity version.


It could be even lighter. MoM will be a second generation CFRP design, which should cut about 20-25% to a A310. So I think OEW could be as low as 55.000kg- just 15% more than a A321, but with over 15% more seats and with a second aisle for more premium seats. This will be a revolution.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:28 pm

seahawk wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
brindabella wrote:
Aye, there's the rub.

At 8ab it is not just a 762/763 replacement - it is also an 332/338 competitor, at least over say 4-5,000NM.

The A310 has a cabin area perfectly positioned between the 762/763. The A310 has a range and weights half way between the ER and non ER 767 models.

So 8AB can easily hit the capacity requirement quite well. The A310CEO has a range of 5150nm, with next gen engines that would be around 6500nm. So a A310 sized aircraft could be lightened significantly to bring the range down to 5000nm.

Knock 10% off the A310 weights as it would be made with modern composites and knock off another 10% as it's range wouldn't need to be 6500nm. So an empty weight of 65T and a max takeoff weight of 135T would be realistic.

So the numbers for 8AB would work.

A310 length for the long range 5000nm version and A300 length for the 4000nm high capacity version.


It could be even lighter. MoM will be a second generation CFRP design, which should cut about 20-25% to a A310. So I think OEW could be as low as 55.000kg- just 15% more than a A321, but with over 15% more seats and with a second aisle for more premium seats. This will be a revolution.



Don't forget the assemby process that will be gaining more automation. This will be interesting to watch.

No doubt Boeing is benchmarking, not the present A321NEO, but what a rewinged A321 will do.
 
parapente
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:00 pm

https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/12/ponti ... -air-show/

Apologies if this link has already been posted.Didnt see it.Leeham makes it v clear that with strong Singapore rumours of the engine requirement is now 50klbs so that this a/c will be a true 757/767 replacement and nothing smaller.Makes sense.But the article also states that the business case is yet to be closed.
Nice additional bit on the tie up with Embraer which their 'sources' also seem to think will be a done deal (HQ in Chicago no less).
If true then regional a/c to 150 PAX (175 eventually?) will be with the new Brazilian aircraft.
The 3 aircraft together (inc MAX) would give them a seamless range through to the 787.
 
brindabella
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:36 pm

seahawk wrote:
It could be even lighter. MoM will be a second generation CFRP design, which should cut about 20-25% to a A310. So I think OEW could be as low as 55.000kg- just 15% more than a A321, but with over 15% more seats and with a second aisle for more premium seats. This will be a revolution.


Very interesting to get some numbers! I've speculated for a while that improved 2nd-gen CFRP fuses should be on the way - especially given some quotes from .787 designers revealed over the last year or two to the effect that "the 787 is the heaviest CFRP fuse that Boeing will EVER build".


(Similarly, I would expect a substantial lift in performance from a "more electric" Version 2.0.)

cheers
Billy
 
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:13 pm

parapente wrote:
https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/12/pontifications-nma-boeing-embraer-headline-singapore-air-show/

Apologies if this link has already been posted.Didnt see it.Leeham makes it v clear that with strong Singapore rumours of the engine requirement is now 50klbs so that this a/c will be a true 757/767 replacement and nothing smaller.Makes sense.But the article also states that the business case is yet to be closed.
Nice additional bit on the tie up with Embraer which their 'sources' also seem to think will be a done deal (HQ in Chicago no less).
If true then regional a/c to 150 PAX (175 eventually?) will be with the new Brazilian aircraft.
The 3 aircraft together (inc MAX) would give them a seamless range through to the 787.

brindabella wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It could be even lighter. MoM will be a second generation CFRP design, which should cut about 20-25% to a A310. So I think OEW could be as low as 55.000kg- just 15% more than a A321, but with over 15% more seats and with a second aisle for more premium seats. This will be a revolution.

Very interesting to get some numbers! I've speculated for a while that improved 2nd-gen CFRP fuses should be on the way - especially given some quotes from .787 designers revealed over the last year or two to the effect that "the 787 is the heaviest CFRP fuse that Boeing will EVER build".

(Similarly, I would expect a substantial lift in performance from a "more electric" Version 2.0.)

cheers

To glue this all together, the leeham/hamilton link also says:

Boeing officials also said the NMA economic improvement target is 30% over the Boeing 757/767—a figure that LNC has heard previously through its own market intelligence. Now it’s official, more-or-less.

Seems the hive-mind is suggesting we might end up with something like a true 767 replacement with +30% efficiency and somewhat less range.

On 787 the airlines were originally told of a true 767 replacement but they encouraged Boeing to produce an a330 competitor. It could be that Boeing went to the airlines with a smaller MOM and they are being encouraged to go bigger, or it could be that there is weight creep forcing the larger engine. Growing from 42-45k to 50k or more is a big bump.

IIRC the 787 spoke of a +20% gain from 767 so another two or so decades on we get another 10% bump?
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bigjku
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:32 pm

Revelation wrote:
parapente wrote:
https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/12/pontifications-nma-boeing-embraer-headline-singapore-air-show/

Apologies if this link has already been posted.Didnt see it.Leeham makes it v clear that with strong Singapore rumours of the engine requirement is now 50klbs so that this a/c will be a true 757/767 replacement and nothing smaller.Makes sense.But the article also states that the business case is yet to be closed.
Nice additional bit on the tie up with Embraer which their 'sources' also seem to think will be a done deal (HQ in Chicago no less).
If true then regional a/c to 150 PAX (175 eventually?) will be with the new Brazilian aircraft.
The 3 aircraft together (inc MAX) would give them a seamless range through to the 787.

brindabella wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It could be even lighter. MoM will be a second generation CFRP design, which should cut about 20-25% to a A310. So I think OEW could be as low as 55.000kg- just 15% more than a A321, but with over 15% more seats and with a second aisle for more premium seats. This will be a revolution.

Very interesting to get some numbers! I've speculated for a while that improved 2nd-gen CFRP fuses should be on the way - especially given some quotes from .787 designers revealed over the last year or two to the effect that "the 787 is the heaviest CFRP fuse that Boeing will EVER build".

(Similarly, I would expect a substantial lift in performance from a "more electric" Version 2.0.)

cheers

To glue this all together, the leeham/hamilton link also says:

Boeing officials also said the NMA economic improvement target is 30% over the Boeing 757/767—a figure that LNC has heard previously through its own market intelligence. Now it’s official, more-or-less.

Seems the hive-mind is suggesting we might end up with something like a true 767 replacement with +30% efficiency and somewhat less range.

On 787 the airlines were originally told of a true 767 replacement but they encouraged Boeing to produce an a330 competitor. It could be that Boeing went to the airlines with a smaller MOM and they are being encouraged to go bigger, or it could be that there is weight creep forcing the larger engine. Growing from 42-45k to 50k or more is a big bump.

IIRC the 787 spoke of a +20% gain from 767 so another two or so decades on we get another 10% bump?


I think Leeham may be a bit over their skis here. There is a spread of thrust across engines on a family of aircraft. The A320 goes from 25-33k. The 787 runs from 64-76k. The A350 runs from 84-97. There seems to be a 20% or so span in there.

CFM/GE commented because they have a unique contract situation. If an engine runs from say 44-54k thrust across two or three variants that produces a unique issue for GE/CFM that they are commenting on. No one else chose to say anything.

All that would really tell us is that some variant may need an engine with that thrust and that to bid CFM has to waive their thrust cap. I would guess you will see thrust span a range from the mid 40’s to mid 50’s. If it started in the 50’s you would expect the engine to be able to reach into the 60k range.
 
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william
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:09 pm

bigjku wrote:
Revelation wrote:
parapente wrote:
https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/12/pontifications-nma-boeing-embraer-headline-singapore-air-show/

Apologies if this link has already been posted.Didnt see it.Leeham makes it v clear that with strong Singapore rumours of the engine requirement is now 50klbs so that this a/c will be a true 757/767 replacement and nothing smaller.Makes sense.But the article also states that the business case is yet to be closed.
Nice additional bit on the tie up with Embraer which their 'sources' also seem to think will be a done deal (HQ in Chicago no less).
If true then regional a/c to 150 PAX (175 eventually?) will be with the new Brazilian aircraft.
The 3 aircraft together (inc MAX) would give them a seamless range through to the 787.

brindabella wrote:
Very interesting to get some numbers! I've speculated for a while that improved 2nd-gen CFRP fuses should be on the way - especially given some quotes from .787 designers revealed over the last year or two to the effect that "the 787 is the heaviest CFRP fuse that Boeing will EVER build".

(Similarly, I would expect a substantial lift in performance from a "more electric" Version 2.0.)

cheers

To glue this all together, the leeham/hamilton link also says:

Boeing officials also said the NMA economic improvement target is 30% over the Boeing 757/767—a figure that LNC has heard previously through its own market intelligence. Now it’s official, more-or-less.

Seems the hive-mind is suggesting we might end up with something like a true 767 replacement with +30% efficiency and somewhat less range.

On 787 the airlines were originally told of a true 767 replacement but they encouraged Boeing to produce an a330 competitor. It could be that Boeing went to the airlines with a smaller MOM and they are being encouraged to go bigger, or it could be that there is weight creep forcing the larger engine. Growing from 42-45k to 50k or more is a big bump.

IIRC the 787 spoke of a +20% gain from 767 so another two or so decades on we get another 10% bump?


I think Leeham may be a bit over their skis here. There is a spread of thrust across engines on a family of aircraft. The A320 goes from 25-33k. The 787 runs from 64-76k. The A350 runs from 84-97. There seems to be a 20% or so span in there.

CFM/GE commented because they have a unique contract situation. If an engine runs from say 44-54k thrust across two or three variants that produces a unique issue for GE/CFM that they are commenting on. No one else chose to say anything.

All that would really tell us is that some variant may need an engine with that thrust and that to bid CFM has to waive their thrust cap. I would guess you will see thrust span a range from the mid 40’s to mid 50’s. If it started in the 50’s you would expect the engine to be able to reach into the 60k range.


That’s how I read it too. Also confirms what I have been stating about automated production to reach the price point the airlines want and the margins that Boeing needs.
 
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:19 pm

bigjku wrote:
Revelation wrote:
parapente wrote:
https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/12/pontifications-nma-boeing-embraer-headline-singapore-air-show/

Apologies if this link has already been posted.Didnt see it.Leeham makes it v clear that with strong Singapore rumours of the engine requirement is now 50klbs so that this a/c will be a true 757/767 replacement and nothing smaller.Makes sense.But the article also states that the business case is yet to be closed.
Nice additional bit on the tie up with Embraer which their 'sources' also seem to think will be a done deal (HQ in Chicago no less).
If true then regional a/c to 150 PAX (175 eventually?) will be with the new Brazilian aircraft.
The 3 aircraft together (inc MAX) would give them a seamless range through to the 787.

brindabella wrote:
Very interesting to get some numbers! I've speculated for a while that improved 2nd-gen CFRP fuses should be on the way - especially given some quotes from .787 designers revealed over the last year or two to the effect that "the 787 is the heaviest CFRP fuse that Boeing will EVER build".

(Similarly, I would expect a substantial lift in performance from a "more electric" Version 2.0.)

cheers

To glue this all together, the leeham/hamilton link also says:

Boeing officials also said the NMA economic improvement target is 30% over the Boeing 757/767—a figure that LNC has heard previously through its own market intelligence. Now it’s official, more-or-less.

Seems the hive-mind is suggesting we might end up with something like a true 767 replacement with +30% efficiency and somewhat less range.

On 787 the airlines were originally told of a true 767 replacement but they encouraged Boeing to produce an a330 competitor. It could be that Boeing went to the airlines with a smaller MOM and they are being encouraged to go bigger, or it could be that there is weight creep forcing the larger engine. Growing from 42-45k to 50k or more is a big bump.

IIRC the 787 spoke of a +20% gain from 767 so another two or so decades on we get another 10% bump?


I think Leeham may be a bit over their skis here. There is a spread of thrust across engines on a family of aircraft. The A320 goes from 25-33k. The 787 runs from 64-76k. The A350 runs from 84-97. There seems to be a 20% or so span in there.

CFM/GE commented because they have a unique contract situation. If an engine runs from say 44-54k thrust across two or three variants that produces a unique issue for GE/CFM that they are commenting on. No one else chose to say anything.

All that would really tell us is that some variant may need an engine with that thrust and that to bid CFM has to waive their thrust cap. I would guess you will see thrust span a range from the mid 40’s to mid 50’s. If it started in the 50’s you would expect the engine to be able to reach into the 60k range.

Don’t mean to go go off topic but is there any airline that actually operate a 787 with 64K engines? I think it’s all 70K+. 50K is fair for a MOM like aircraft more thrust than the 757 and less thrust than the 763ER.
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:33 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
bigjku wrote:
Revelation wrote:

To glue this all together, the leeham/hamilton link also says:


Seems the hive-mind is suggesting we might end up with something like a true 767 replacement with +30% efficiency and somewhat less range.

On 787 the airlines were originally told of a true 767 replacement but they encouraged Boeing to produce an a330 competitor. It could be that Boeing went to the airlines with a smaller MOM and they are being encouraged to go bigger, or it could be that there is weight creep forcing the larger engine. Growing from 42-45k to 50k or more is a big bump.

IIRC the 787 spoke of a +20% gain from 767 so another two or so decades on we get another 10% bump?


I think Leeham may be a bit over their skis here. There is a spread of thrust across engines on a family of aircraft. The A320 goes from 25-33k. The 787 runs from 64-76k. The A350 runs from 84-97. There seems to be a 20% or so span in there.

CFM/GE commented because they have a unique contract situation. If an engine runs from say 44-54k thrust across two or three variants that produces a unique issue for GE/CFM that they are commenting on. No one else chose to say anything.

All that would really tell us is that some variant may need an engine with that thrust and that to bid CFM has to waive their thrust cap. I would guess you will see thrust span a range from the mid 40’s to mid 50’s. If it started in the 50’s you would expect the engine to be able to reach into the 60k range.

Don’t mean to go go off topic but is there any airline that actually operate a 787 with 64K engines? I think it’s all 70K+. 50K is fair for a MOM like aircraft more thrust than the 757 and less thrust than the 763ER.


I just pulled the quick figures from Wikipedia because it’s handy on my phone. The point remains, there will be some sort of range of thrust across models and CFM has a unique position if that range spans the 50K area at all.
 
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:40 pm

If Boeing goes for a bigger NMA, Airbus will probably move forward with a new wing NB, focussing on low weight / costs, commonality, securing the lower end of the segment. Dual 40 klbs Leap & GTF variants might do the trick / reduce risks.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w0yvq58-h2M/WVuATjJFU0I/AAAAAAAABK4/RKFBEiw4WT83RjRqZa3UdwaP8kURPFHOQCLcBGAs/s1600/Airbus%2BBoeing%2BA322%2BMoM%2BConcept%2Bkeesje%2B737%2BMAX%2BA320NEO.jpg
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:13 pm

keesje wrote:
If Boeing goes for a bigger NMA, Airbus will probably move forward with a new wing NB, focussing on low weight / costs, commonality, securing the lower end of the segment. Dual 40 klbs Leap & GTF variants might do the trick / reduce risks.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-w0yvq58-h2M/WVuATjJFU0I/AAAAAAAABK4/RKFBEiw4WT83RjRqZa3UdwaP8kURPFHOQCLcBGAs/s1600/Airbus%2BBoeing%2BA322%2BMoM%2BConcept%2Bkeesje%2B737%2BMAX%2BA320NEO.jpg


Regardless of what direction Boeing goes I expect a rewing of the A321 but not for a while. That’s why Boeing is paying much more attention to the production side of things. It’s how Boeing is going to be price competitive with the rewinged A321.
 
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:32 pm

Interesting article about Delta's interest in the 797.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ls-797-jet

They want to be a launch customer.
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Re: Boeing officially forms program office to flesh out 797 plans

Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:44 pm

tlecam wrote:
Interesting article about Delta's interest in the 797.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ls-797-jet

They want to be a launch customer.

This will make a few a.net members heads explode.

But DL hates Boeing!

But DL is an A330neo customer!

But DL is an A321neo customer!

Article leaves no doubts:

“You’re going to see us participate in Boeing’s middle-of-the-market campaign,” Bastian said. “I hope that we’re going to be a launch customer on that program as well.”
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own

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