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FA9295
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Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:46 pm

Hey all,

Since I'm a PDX native, I'm always a bit annoyed to see SEA getting all of the new routes, and PDX constantly getting the shaft. With this being said, I don't ever expect PDX to top SEA in terms of passenger traffic and new routes. However, It seems like there would be more opportunities for potential new routes from PDX than airlines have been running to andfrom the airport. Some good examples of this:

Hawaiian Airlines (PDX-OGG)
HA's SEA-OGG routes, which runs on an Airbus A330-200 aircraft 1x daily. However, HA ended this route from PDX (with a Boeing 767-300ER aircraft) a long time ago, but it is set to resume with an Airbus A321(neo). One news press/online article that I read said that HA would not have been able to resume this route, and others without the Airbus A321(neo) aircraft. Obviously, HA had ended the route a long time ago, so obviously the route was not profitable. I'm just curious as to why a wide-body A332/B763ER aircraft would have failed this route in the past and why HA feels like a narrow-body aircraft would be the only available option in resuming this flight. In SEA, there's a lot of competition to Hawaii from DL and AS, however there are much less routes from PDX to Hawaii than from SEA, so I would think that resuming this route on an Airbus A330-200 aircraft shouldn't be such a problem...

JetBlue (PDX-JFK / PDX-BOS)
I find it a bit odd that B6's PDX-BOS route is only seasonal. At one point during the summer months, B6 operated 2x daily flights (seasonal) and 1x daily PDX-JFK (year round). If PDX-BOS were to stay seasonal, I would think that B6 should make a second daily (year round) PDX-JFK flight, since the route is obviously profitable since it runs year round, instead of a second PDX-BOS route that only lasts for a couple months...

Alaska Airlines
There's a lot that I can say about AS, and how they're rapidly downsizing their PDX focus city in favor of more SEA routes, but I do understand that QX currently has a pilot shortage, which is ultimately effecting AS's PDX routes. A little off topic, but I'm stunned to see AS opening up a SEA-ICT route for reservation. I see no way that this particular flight could ever be profitable, but hey, I'm probably missing something here... Also, VX ending PDX-LAX was a shock. They said that the PDX-LAX route was too competitive for them, but whenever I was on a VX flight from PDX to LAX, it was always 95-100% full. Since AS now bought VX, maybe some of these Airbus A319/Airbus A320 aircraft will run this route in the near future (although I really don't see that happening, since SEA obviously has priority over PDX...

Delta Airlines (PDX-CDG)
If Indianapolis can get a IND-CDG (Paris, France) route, then I think that DL could make the route work very well for PDX (with Boeing 767-300ER aircraft). Even if the route was only seasonal, I think it would do very well, overall... Maybe Air France (AF) could take on the route if DL is hesitant with this... I know Delta already has 1x daily PDX-AMS on an Airbus A330-300 aircraft, but I would think that CDG would be a much more desirable destination for O&D travelers, than AMS...

Also as a side note, I would much rather see Lufthansa operate PDX-FRA than Condor (Lufthansa Airbus A330-300 instead of Condor Boeing 767-300ER).
 
Cunard
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:01 pm

That's one hell of a headliner 'Airlines missing profitable opportunities'!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
ANA787
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:04 pm

I think B6's PDX-BOS service eventually will go year round. AS has just made PDX-BOS 2x daily for the fall, so the market is growing. Btw, AS just added year round PDX-JFK starting in November.

I'm glad PDX-OGG is finally resuming on Hawaiian. This will bring the market to 3x daily between AS and HA. I think this is the right size for the market.

I'm surprised PDX-CDG hasn't been announced for next summer. I think DL will test this market eventually with seasonal service first. I guess there is still time to announce routes for next summer.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:13 pm

Cunard wrote:
That's one hell of a headliner 'Airlines missing profitable opportunities'!


Yeah I know, this is just wishful thinking on my part... :smile:
 
BlatantEcho
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:14 pm

PDX needs a few routes to fill in the map for us travelers. I have faith that Alaska will ramp back some service when Horizon issue is solved...

INTERNATIONAL
PDX-ICN on Korean. This is desperately needed. Getting to Asia requires a second connection now as the Delta NRT hub is dismantled.
I have to fly PDX-YVR-XXX-XXX or PDX-SFO-XXX-XXX to get to any secondary Asian city. Totally sucks.

PDX-LHR (year round) (BA would be ideal for connections). 4x weekly doesn't work for us super well for business travel. Had to send one employee PDX-FRA-LHR, LHR-PDX as the London flight isn't daily.

PDX-FRA (year round). Currently in Eastern Europe, flying ZAG-FRA-PDX tomorrow. Just a pain to have to use a 3 or 4x weekly service.

PDX- CDG would be a nice add if Delta decided to go bigger. Could help with connections to Africa as well, hard to get to Africa easily without going PDX-SEA-DXB-XXX. PDX-CDG-XXX would be way easier.


DOMESTIC

PDX-JFK
So, Alaska is starting PDX-JFK, which is nice, I'm booked on one of the first flights. But they just changed the timing from 11pm departure, to like 920pm.... sucks. Gets into JFK at 5am or something. That is no fun.
Need an additional daytime departure on Alaska to JFK. EWR sucks. Used that twice this year, can't do that again, just horrible to get to NYC.

PDX-DEN on Alaska.
This drives me crazy that they don't fly it. Such a pain.


My Dream:
PDX-PTY or similar. I'm going to use the PDX-MEX flight in December, but now that AeroMexico is ending partnership with Alaska... an easier way to get to Central and South America would be nice. Especially, again, to secondary cities.

PDX-PVG Delta could do this with China Eastern... I think it is a .005% chance of happening, but would help as a lot of us have to get to Shanghai regularly.
 
Squeezix
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:18 pm

FA9295 wrote:

[b]lAlso, VX ending PDX-LAX was a shock. They said that the PDX-LAX route was too competitive for them, but whenever I was on a VX flight from PDX to LAX, it was always 95-100% full.


Just because a flight is full doesn’t mean it’s profitable. How many flights did we all take in the 2000s that were completely full yet the airlines were hemmorhaging money? Most likely VX had to undercut its competitors (and take a loss) just to fill seats on the saturated PDX-LAX market.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:28 pm

Isn't there already a PDX thread? This can easily have been posted there....
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FA9295
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:32 pm

BlatantEcho wrote:

PDX-PTY or similar. I'm going to use the PDX-MEX flight in December, but now that AeroMexico is ending partnership with Alaska... an easier way to get to Central and South America would be nice. Especially, again, to secondary cities.

PDX-PVG Delta could do this with China Eastern... I think it is a .005% chance of happening, but would help as a lot of us have to get to Shanghai regularly.


PDX-PTY would be great. This route would very likely get added to SEA first, before PDX though. Also, I don't see Delta adding any more routes to Asia from PDX given the close proximity of PDX to SEA. Delta would need to open up a hub in PDX in order for this to work, and the terminal at PDX would need to be almost doubled in expansion in order for this to even have a chance to work. And since the PDX airport is right along the Columbia river, there is very little room, if any, for the Port of Portland to even consider doing this. Not to mention how much it would cost, also...

Also, I think PDX needs the following international routes to Asia:

PDX-NRT (Japan Airlines, Boeing 787-8/-9)
- Let's face it, Delta is gonna end this route in the near future... :cry: Also, ANA operates NRT-SEA with a Boeing 787-9 aircraft, so if Japan Airlines were to add a similar route it would compete pretty well. Not to mention that Japan Airlines has codeshare agreements with Alaska Airlines...
PDX-ICN (Jin Air, Boeing 777-200ER)
- SEA already has three routes to ICN. PDX should at least have one. I mentioned Jin Air because both Asiana and Korean Air already fly to SEA.
PDX-PVG (Air China, Airbus A330-200)
- Air China would normally operate to PEK rather than PVG, but they do operate to PVG from San Jose, CA (SJC)
PDX-PEK (Hainan, Airbus A330-200/-300 OR Boeing 787-8/-9)
- Hainan operates to PEK from LAS, SJC and SEA. PDX is bound to be added to the network at some point soon...
PDX-HKG (Cathay Pacific, Airbus A330-300 OR Hong Kong Airlines, Airbus A350-900)
- Delta operates SEA-HKG with an Airbus A330-200 aircraft, soon to be Boeing 777-200ER/-LR aircraft instead. Also Cathay Pacific has cargo operations at PDX, so a passenger flight may come soon as well... Hong Kong Airlines could also operate this route if Cathay Pacific was hesitant to do so...
PDX-TPE (China Airlines, Airbus A330-300 OR Airbus A350-900)
- EVA Air operates up to 2x daily flights to TPE from SEA with a Boeing 777-300ER (they used to have Boeing 747-400ER operations as well on this route). If China Airlines adds a PDX-TPE route, then this could compete greatly with EVA's SEA routes.
 
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FA9295
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:33 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Isn't there already a PDX thread? This can easily have been posted there....


The only thread that I found was the "Oregon Aviation" thread. I would have posted there, but I couldn't find anything specific to PDX...
 
MaxTrimm
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:33 pm

FA9295 wrote:
Hey all,

Since I'm a PDX native, I'm always a bit annoyed to see SEA getting all of the new routes, and PDX constantly getting the shaft. With this being said, I don't ever expect PDX to top SEA in terms of passenger traffic and new routes. However, It seems like there would be more opportunities for potential new routes from PDX than airlines have been running to andfrom the airport. Some good examples of this:

Hawaiian Airlines (PDX-OGG)
HA's SEA-OGG routes, which runs on an Airbus A330-200 aircraft 1x daily. However, HA ended this route from PDX (with a Boeing 767-300ER aircraft) a long time ago, but it is set to resume with an Airbus A321(neo). One news press/online article that I read said that HA would not have been able to resume this route, and others without the Airbus A321(neo) aircraft. Obviously, HA had ended the route a long time ago, so obviously the route was not profitable. I'm just curious as to why a wide-body A332/B763ER aircraft would have failed this route in the past and why HA feels like a narrow-body aircraft would be the only available option in resuming this flight. In SEA, there's a lot of competition to Hawaii from DL and AS, however there are much less routes from PDX to Hawaii than from SEA, so I would think that resuming this route on an Airbus A330-200 aircraft shouldn't be such a problem...

JetBlue (PDX-JFK / PDX-BOS)
I find it a bit odd that B6's PDX-BOS route is only seasonal. At one point during the summer months, B6 operated 2x daily flights (seasonal) and 1x daily PDX-JFK (year round). If PDX-BOS were to stay seasonal, I would think that B6 should make a second daily (year round) PDX-JFK flight, since the route is obviously profitable since it runs year round, instead of a second PDX-BOS route that only lasts for a couple months...

Alaska Airlines
There's a lot that I can say about AS, and how they're rapidly downsizing their PDX focus city in favor of more SEA routes, but I do understand that QX currently has a pilot shortage, which is ultimately effecting AS's PDX routes. A little off topic, but I'm stunned to see AS opening up a SEA-ICT route for reservation. I see no way that this particular flight could ever be profitable, but hey, I'm probably missing something here... Also, VX ending PDX-LAX was a shock. They said that the PDX-LAX route was too competitive for them, but whenever I was on a VX flight from PDX to LAX, it was always 95-100% full. Since AS now bought VX, maybe some of these Airbus A319/Airbus A320 aircraft will run this route in the near future (although I really don't see that happening, since SEA obviously has priority over PDX...

Delta Airlines (PDX-CDG)
If Indianapolis can get a IND-CDG (Paris, France) route, then I think that DL could make the route work very well for PDX (with Boeing 767-300ER aircraft). Even if the route was only seasonal, I think it would do very well, overall... Maybe Air France (AF) could take on the route if DL is hesitant with this... I know Delta already has 1x daily PDX-AMS on an Airbus A330-300 aircraft, but I would think that CDG would be a much more desirable destination for O&D travelers, than AMS...

Also as a side note, I would much rather see Lufthansa operate PDX-FRA than Condor (Lufthansa Airbus A330-300 instead of Condor Boeing 767-300ER).


As big of a fan as I am for PDX, I don’t think are you are understanding why airlines are cutting or not adding routes. Here’s my 2 cents:
Regarding HA, the reason they would return to PDX with the A321neo compared to, say, the A330, is far favorable economics. You mentioned the route was competitive, which drives prices down, and (obviously) less profit for the airline when less fuel-efficient aircraft are being used.

Concerning VX, the same idea applies. In a route that is “highly competitive” like PDX-LAX, prices will be driven down with competition. VX may have been filling the planes, but if the seats were cheap, of course planes will fill. See Ryanair.
 
Gsdlimey
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:37 pm

In rough numbers, SEA area is over 2x the population and around 5x the wealth of PDX area.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:38 pm

Gsdlimey wrote:
In rough numbers, SEA area is over 2x the population and around 5x the wealth of PDX area.


How are you quantifying wealth?
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FA9295
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:00 pm

Gsdlimey wrote:
In rough numbers, SEA area is over 2x the population and around 5x the wealth of PDX area.

In a lot of cases, this doesn't have to be relavent (although it is a lot of the time). As long as an airline can make a hub for an airport in mostly supporting connecting traffic to other flights, rather than mostly O&D traffic, an airline can have a hub in most major airports and make it work.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:01 pm

You sound like that guy from DTW who posts doom and gloom about his airport.

I guess I'm missing something. With the exception of the recent QX pilot shortage, I thought AS was greatly expanding at PDX. FI added frequency to PDX. Condor started it. DL added LHR. AM is starting PDX.

Silly airlines. All passing up ways to make money.

Not sure what exactly is your concern. PDX gets excellent service for a city of it's size. I would not be surprised to see more expansion at PDX.
 
jetskipper
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:25 pm

The thing that every hometown airport fan on this site doesn't understand is it isn't whether a flight would be profitable between x and y, it is whether the aircraft will make more money on that new flight than using th aircraft somewhere else. Airlines have limited aircraft. I'm sure PDX-CDG would make a profit, but if the aircraft isn't going to be more profitable than adding a 5th DTW-AMS it isn't going to get added and the 5th DTW-AMS will. The name of the game is squeezing the most profit out of your limited fleet.
 
Gsdlimey
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:29 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Gsdlimey wrote:
In rough numbers, SEA area is over 2x the population and around 5x the wealth of PDX area.


How are you quantifying wealth?


In US dollars
 
jsta1981
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:17 pm

lol "US Dollars"

Seriously though...how are we still on this? Seattle metro is double the population of Portland's metro. It's business community is robust, wealthy, and 5 times what Portland's is, including multiple international corporation headquarters that employ hundreds of thousands of employees that need to travel worldwide (microsoft, starbucks, amazon). Portland's business community is small compared to Seattle. Portland has Nike. Sure Intel employs a good chunk of people, but mostly staff, not high paid executives. The Seattle/Washington tourism scene is also much larger than Portland/Oregon. Seattle grants easy access 2 world re-known national parks (olympic, rainier), and a 3rd not so well know, but beautiful none the less (north cascades). It has Alaska cruises in the summer, the San Juan's, many tourist friendly locals in Seattle proper itself, easier access to Vancouver, BC, pro football and baseball teams. Also, has anyone ever visited Leavenworth, half the tourists in Leavenworth are from Asia. Seattle also has amazing food, coffee, and beer. Portland/Oregon has Mt. Hood, the scorched columbia river gorge, the coast, beer, food, and coffee, and a really large bookstore.

I live in Portland and love it, the airport is wonderful....but comparing it to Seattle is nonsense. It's like comparing Oakland to San Francisco or San Diego to Los Angeles, or Baltimore to Washington DC. It's not even a fair fight/comparison.
Knowing all of this, it amazes me that people still get hurt feelings that Portland doesn't get very many international flights or more flights to the east coast when compared to Seattle.
 
BlatantEcho
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:23 pm

These threads are fine until we get into Portland vs Seattle.

Those are stupid conversations we should all know go nowhere.

Portland needs all the flights I described. Others have some good ideas too.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:24 pm

Alternative thread title: 'Thousands of airline route planners doing it wrong, I'm certain.'
 
Dominion301
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:31 pm

Hasn't' AS overall increased PDX quite a bit the past 2-3 years?

In fact checking the PDX pax stats for August, AS were up 23% vs August 2016, while Horizon was down 10%, but Skywest were up 16% (I dunno what percentage of OO's PDX ops are AS branded). Even if you just look at AS mainline and Horizon, AS overall are up substantially this year.

The airport overall is doing very well.
 
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:22 pm

jsta1981 wrote:
lol "US Dollars"

Seriously though...how are we still on this? Seattle metro is double the population of Portland's metro. It's business community is robust, wealthy, and 5 times what Portland's is, including multiple international corporation headquarters that employ hundreds of thousands of employees that need to travel worldwide (microsoft, starbucks, amazon). Portland's business community is small compared to Seattle. Portland has Nike. Sure Intel employs a good chunk of people, but mostly staff, not high paid executives. The Seattle/Washington tourism scene is also much larger than Portland/Oregon. Seattle grants easy access 2 world re-known national parks (olympic, rainier), and a 3rd not so well know, but beautiful none the less (north cascades). It has Alaska cruises in the summer, the San Juan's, many tourist friendly locals in Seattle proper itself, easier access to Vancouver, BC, pro football and baseball teams. Also, has anyone ever visited Leavenworth, half the tourists in Leavenworth are from Asia. Seattle also has amazing food, coffee, and beer. Portland/Oregon has Mt. Hood, the scorched columbia river gorge, the coast, beer, food, and coffee, and a really large bookstore.

I live in Portland and love it, the airport is wonderful....but comparing it to Seattle is nonsense. It's like comparing Oakland to San Francisco or San Diego to Los Angeles, or Baltimore to Washington DC. It's not even a fair fight/comparison.
Knowing all of this, it amazes me that people still get hurt feelings that Portland doesn't get very many international flights or more flights to the east coast when compared to Seattle.


You are an absolute "broken record"...just repeating the same garble each time, different thread. You really should seek employment with the Greater Seattle Tourism Bureau as you have so many wonderful remarks about Seattle in all of your postings. BTW the Columbia River Gorge isn't scorched...it's actually a fairly resilient "rain forest" that will rebound rather well from what has occurred there.
 
jsta1981
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:40 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Alternative thread title: 'Thousands of airline route planners doing it wrong, I'm certain.'


Agreed
 
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:53 pm

Speaking of DTW...how's that flight doing for AS? Also if anyone could pull PDX-MCO LF's for me that'd be very much appreciated. I'm sure in due time, if WN doesn't add PDX, AS will.
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:00 pm

BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX-PTY or similar. I'm going to use the PDX-MEX flight in December, but now that AeroMexico is ending partnership with Alaska... an easier way to get to Central and South America would be nice. Especially, again, to secondary cities.


For many spots in Central & South America, connecting via IAH or DFW is more direct than PTY. With these convenient hubs for the small amount of traffic, a new connecting entrant would need to rely primarily on O&D--and I don't see PTY doing it. MIA or maybe FLL seems much more likely... AA, Spirit, Allegiant, or JetBlue could provide connections on to Latin America from there, while serving what seems like it should be a decent O&D route.

Has there ever been nonstop PDX-South Florida service in the past?
 
jsta1981
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:01 pm

bigfoot0503 wrote:
jsta1981 wrote:
lol "US Dollars"

Seriously though...how are we still on this? Seattle metro is double the population of Portland's metro. It's business community is robust, wealthy, and 5 times what Portland's is, including multiple international corporation headquarters that employ hundreds of thousands of employees that need to travel worldwide (microsoft, starbucks, amazon). Portland's business community is small compared to Seattle. Portland has Nike. Sure Intel employs a good chunk of people, but mostly staff, not high paid executives. The Seattle/Washington tourism scene is also much larger than Portland/Oregon. Seattle grants easy access 2 world re-known national parks (olympic, rainier), and a 3rd not so well know, but beautiful none the less (north cascades). It has Alaska cruises in the summer, the San Juan's, many tourist friendly locals in Seattle proper itself, easier access to Vancouver, BC, pro football and baseball teams. Also, has anyone ever visited Leavenworth, half the tourists in Leavenworth are from Asia. Seattle also has amazing food, coffee, and beer. Portland/Oregon has Mt. Hood, the scorched columbia river gorge, the coast, beer, food, and coffee, and a really large bookstore.

I live in Portland and love it, the airport is wonderful....but comparing it to Seattle is nonsense. It's like comparing Oakland to San Francisco or San Diego to Los Angeles, or Baltimore to Washington DC. It's not even a fair fight/comparison.
Knowing all of this, it amazes me that people still get hurt feelings that Portland doesn't get very many international flights or more flights to the east coast when compared to Seattle.


You are an absolute "broken record"...just repeating the same garble each time, different thread. You really should seek employment with the Greater Seattle Tourism Bureau as you have so many wonderful remarks about Seattle in all of your postings. BTW the Columbia River Gorge isn't scorched...it's actually a fairly resilient "rain forest" that will rebound rather well from what has occurred there.


I know it's not scorched...and it is resilient. I have to keep reminding myself of that. It's just tough knowing that in my lifetime it may not ever look the same as it did. Being a regular user of the gorge..fishing, kayaking, hiking, biking...its sad. And all due to some fireworks. Sad
 
jsta1981
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:01 pm

bigfoot0503 wrote:
jsta1981 wrote:
lol "US Dollars"

Seriously though...how are we still on this? Seattle metro is double the population of Portland's metro. It's business community is robust, wealthy, and 5 times what Portland's is, including multiple international corporation headquarters that employ hundreds of thousands of employees that need to travel worldwide (microsoft, starbucks, amazon). Portland's business community is small compared to Seattle. Portland has Nike. Sure Intel employs a good chunk of people, but mostly staff, not high paid executives. The Seattle/Washington tourism scene is also much larger than Portland/Oregon. Seattle grants easy access 2 world re-known national parks (olympic, rainier), and a 3rd not so well know, but beautiful none the less (north cascades). It has Alaska cruises in the summer, the San Juan's, many tourist friendly locals in Seattle proper itself, easier access to Vancouver, BC, pro football and baseball teams. Also, has anyone ever visited Leavenworth, half the tourists in Leavenworth are from Asia. Seattle also has amazing food, coffee, and beer. Portland/Oregon has Mt. Hood, the scorched columbia river gorge, the coast, beer, food, and coffee, and a really large bookstore.

I live in Portland and love it, the airport is wonderful....but comparing it to Seattle is nonsense. It's like comparing Oakland to San Francisco or San Diego to Los Angeles, or Baltimore to Washington DC. It's not even a fair fight/comparison.
Knowing all of this, it amazes me that people still get hurt feelings that Portland doesn't get very many international flights or more flights to the east coast when compared to Seattle.


You are an absolute "broken record"...just repeating the same garble each time, different thread. You really should seek employment with the Greater Seattle Tourism Bureau as you have so many wonderful remarks about Seattle in all of your postings. BTW the Columbia River Gorge isn't scorched...it's actually a fairly resilient "rain forest" that will rebound rather well from what has occurred there.


I know it's not scorched...and it is resilient. I have to keep reminding myself of that. It's just tough knowing that in my lifetime it may not ever look the same as it did. Being a regular user of the gorge..fishing, kayaking, hiking, biking...its sad. And all due to some fireworks. Sad
 
Gsdlimey
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:47 pm

BlatantEcho wrote:
These threads are fine until we get into Portland vs Seattle.

Those are stupid conversations we should all know go nowhere.

Portland needs all the flights I described. Others have some good ideas too.



When the OP includes "I'm always a bit annoyed to see SEA getting all of the new routes" in the opening line, it seems appropriate to point out the fundamental differences between the two markets... and many here did just that. Most of the comments about the market differences (which you refer to as "Portland vs Seattle") made sense, and weren't just the usual PNW sibling rivalry/jealousy (which is very real in general of course.)
 
ahj2000
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:17 am

HONEStly PDX could use some year round dailies to Charlotte, South florida, Philadelphia, and the like. It can be difficult to get to Portland off-peak from the east coast.
-Andrés Juánez
 
jsta1981
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:34 am

ahj2000 wrote:
HONEStly PDX could use some year round dailies to Charlotte, South florida, Philadelphia, and the like. It can be difficult to get to Portland off-peak from the east coast.


It does seem strange that PDX can't maintain a year round nonstop to Philadelphia.
 
joeman
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:55 am

FA9295 wrote:
Cunard wrote:
That's one hell of a headliner 'Airlines missing profitable opportunities'!


Yeah I know, this is just wishful thinking on my part... :smile:

Totally understandable but since I don't believe PDX is considered a "fly over" wannabe by our a.netter experts, their condescending remarks and never known before theories of relativity will probably be minimal.
 
CHI2DFW
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:57 am

Gsdlimey wrote:
In rough numbers, SEA area is over 2x the population and around 5x the wealth of PDX area.


Congratulations PDX! You are now officially the next DTW! “No reason why PDX... won’t work!”
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:49 am

FA9295 wrote:
Alaska Airlines
There's a lot that I can say about AS, and how they're rapidly downsizing their PDX focus city in favor of more SEA routes, but I do understand that QX currently has a pilot shortage, which is ultimately effecting AS's PDX routes. A little off topic, but I'm stunned to see AS opening up a SEA-ICT route for reservation. I see no way that this particular flight could ever be profitable, but hey, I'm probably missing something here... Also, VX ending PDX-LAX was a shock. They said that the PDX-LAX route was too competitive for them, but whenever I was on a VX flight from PDX to LAX, it was always 95-100% full. Since AS now bought VX, maybe some of these Airbus A319/Airbus A320 aircraft will run this route in the near future (although I really don't see that happening, since SEA obviously has priority over PDX...


Aside from PSC, what route has AS stopped from PDX? In the past year or slightly more they've added MCI, MSP, OMA, MCO, AUS, TUS, STL, DAL, ABQ, DTW, JFK, EWR and seasonally BWI, MKE and PHL and a seasonal second BOS flight. So again, where is the "rapid downsizing" you're talking about beyond some temporary reductions and adjustments in frequencies on some QX routes?
 
TUSDawg23
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:11 am

ASFlyer wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Alaska Airlines
There's a lot that I can say about AS, and how they're rapidly downsizing their PDX focus city in favor of more SEA routes, but I do understand that QX currently has a pilot shortage, which is ultimately effecting AS's PDX routes. A little off topic, but I'm stunned to see AS opening up a SEA-ICT route for reservation. I see no way that this particular flight could ever be profitable, but hey, I'm probably missing something here... Also, VX ending PDX-LAX was a shock. They said that the PDX-LAX route was too competitive for them, but whenever I was on a VX flight from PDX to LAX, it was always 95-100% full. Since AS now bought VX, maybe some of these Airbus A319/Airbus A320 aircraft will run this route in the near future (although I really don't see that happening, since SEA obviously has priority over PDX...


Aside from PSC, what route has AS stopped from PDX? In the past year or slightly more they've added MCI, MSP, OMA, MCO, AUS, TUS, STL, DAL, ABQ, DTW, JFK, EWR and seasonally BWI, MKE and PHL and a seasonal second BOS flight. So again, where is the "rapid downsizing" you're talking about beyond some temporary reductions and adjustments in frequencies on some QX routes?


I have to agree here with ASFlyer. PDX has also has quite a few international destinations considering its proximity to SEA.

1. Canada-YVR, YYC, YYZ
2. Mexico-GDL, MEX(coming soon), PVR, SJC
3. Europe-AMS, FRA, KEF, LHR
4. Asia-NRT
 
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FA9295
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:05 am

TUSDawg23 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Alaska Airlines
There's a lot that I can say about AS, and how they're rapidly downsizing their PDX focus city in favor of more SEA routes, but I do understand that QX currently has a pilot shortage, which is ultimately effecting AS's PDX routes. A little off topic, but I'm stunned to see AS opening up a SEA-ICT route for reservation. I see no way that this particular flight could ever be profitable, but hey, I'm probably missing something here... Also, VX ending PDX-LAX was a shock. They said that the PDX-LAX route was too competitive for them, but whenever I was on a VX flight from PDX to LAX, it was always 95-100% full. Since AS now bought VX, maybe some of these Airbus A319/Airbus A320 aircraft will run this route in the near future (although I really don't see that happening, since SEA obviously has priority over PDX...


Aside from PSC, what route has AS stopped from PDX? In the past year or slightly more they've added MCI, MSP, OMA, MCO, AUS, TUS, STL, DAL, ABQ, DTW, JFK, EWR and seasonally BWI, MKE and PHL and a seasonal second BOS flight. So again, where is the "rapid downsizing" you're talking about beyond some temporary reductions and adjustments in frequencies on some QX routes?


I have to agree here with ASFlyer. PDX has also has quite a few international destinations considering its proximity to SEA.

1. Canada-YVR, YYC, YYZ
2. Mexico-GDL, MEX(coming soon), PVR, SJC
3. Europe-AMS, FRA, KEF, LHR
4. Asia-NRT


Yeah, "rapidly downsizing" was probably incorrect wording on my part, so I apologize for that... I'm not sure what you mean that AS stopped flying PDX-PSC, unless if you're talking about AS's mainline fleet, in which case I had no idea that AS operated that route with Boeing 737 aircraft in the past...
Last edited by FA9295 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ucdtim17
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:06 am

ASFlyer wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Alaska Airlines
There's a lot that I can say about AS, and how they're rapidly downsizing their PDX focus city in favor of more SEA routes, but I do understand that QX currently has a pilot shortage, which is ultimately effecting AS's PDX routes. A little off topic, but I'm stunned to see AS opening up a SEA-ICT route for reservation. I see no way that this particular flight could ever be profitable, but hey, I'm probably missing something here... Also, VX ending PDX-LAX was a shock. They said that the PDX-LAX route was too competitive for them, but whenever I was on a VX flight from PDX to LAX, it was always 95-100% full. Since AS now bought VX, maybe some of these Airbus A319/Airbus A320 aircraft will run this route in the near future (although I really don't see that happening, since SEA obviously has priority over PDX...


Aside from PSC, what route has AS stopped from PDX? In the past year or slightly more they've added MCI, MSP, OMA, MCO, AUS, TUS, STL, DAL, ABQ, DTW, JFK, EWR and seasonally BWI, MKE and PHL and a seasonal second BOS flight. So again, where is the "rapid downsizing" you're talking about beyond some temporary reductions and adjustments in frequencies on some QX routes?


I believe MCI and STL are being discontinued, at least temporarily. The planes are needed at SFO to fly half empty to ABQ, MSP, MCI, etc
 
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FA9295
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:07 am

ucdtim17 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Alaska Airlines
There's a lot that I can say about AS, and how they're rapidly downsizing their PDX focus city in favor of more SEA routes, but I do understand that QX currently has a pilot shortage, which is ultimately effecting AS's PDX routes. A little off topic, but I'm stunned to see AS opening up a SEA-ICT route for reservation. I see no way that this particular flight could ever be profitable, but hey, I'm probably missing something here... Also, VX ending PDX-LAX was a shock. They said that the PDX-LAX route was too competitive for them, but whenever I was on a VX flight from PDX to LAX, it was always 95-100% full. Since AS now bought VX, maybe some of these Airbus A319/Airbus A320 aircraft will run this route in the near future (although I really don't see that happening, since SEA obviously has priority over PDX...


Aside from PSC, what route has AS stopped from PDX? In the past year or slightly more they've added MCI, MSP, OMA, MCO, AUS, TUS, STL, DAL, ABQ, DTW, JFK, EWR and seasonally BWI, MKE and PHL and a seasonal second BOS flight. So again, where is the "rapid downsizing" you're talking about beyond some temporary reductions and adjustments in frequencies on some QX routes?


I believe MCI and STL are being discontinued, at least temporarily. The planes are needed at SFO to fly half empty to ABQ, MSP, MCI, etc


OMA is also being discontinued temporarily.
 
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FA9295
Topic Author
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:23 am

jsta1981 wrote:
ahj2000 wrote:
HONEStly PDX could use some year round dailies to Charlotte, South florida, Philadelphia, and the like. It can be difficult to get to Portland off-peak from the east coast.


It does seem strange that PDX can't maintain a year round nonstop to Philadelphia.


Right, this is what I was referring to earlier in regards to B6's 2x daily summer BOS flights. It's also odd that there are two summer nonstop flights to PHL (AS and AA) and none in the winter... The same thing is happening for PDX's BWI routes (AS and WN). At least one of these 2x daily summer flights should be year-round...
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:09 am

ucdtim17 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
FA9295 wrote:
Alaska Airlines
There's a lot that I can say about AS, and how they're rapidly downsizing their PDX focus city in favor of more SEA routes, but I do understand that QX currently has a pilot shortage, which is ultimately effecting AS's PDX routes. A little off topic, but I'm stunned to see AS opening up a SEA-ICT route for reservation. I see no way that this particular flight could ever be profitable, but hey, I'm probably missing something here... Also, VX ending PDX-LAX was a shock. They said that the PDX-LAX route was too competitive for them, but whenever I was on a VX flight from PDX to LAX, it was always 95-100% full. Since AS now bought VX, maybe some of these Airbus A319/Airbus A320 aircraft will run this route in the near future (although I really don't see that happening, since SEA obviously has priority over PDX...


Aside from PSC, what route has AS stopped from PDX? In the past year or slightly more they've added MCI, MSP, OMA, MCO, AUS, TUS, STL, DAL, ABQ, DTW, JFK, EWR and seasonally BWI, MKE and PHL and a seasonal second BOS flight. So again, where is the "rapid downsizing" you're talking about beyond some temporary reductions and adjustments in frequencies on some QX routes?


I believe MCI and STL are being discontinued, at least temporarily. The planes are needed at SFO to fly half empty to ABQ, MSP, MCI, etc


they're being discontinued for a month, and you have no idea how full the flights from SFO to ABQ, MSP and MCI are or aren't.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:10 am

FA9295 wrote:
ucdtim17 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

Aside from PSC, what route has AS stopped from PDX? In the past year or slightly more they've added MCI, MSP, OMA, MCO, AUS, TUS, STL, DAL, ABQ, DTW, JFK, EWR and seasonally BWI, MKE and PHL and a seasonal second BOS flight. So again, where is the "rapid downsizing" you're talking about beyond some temporary reductions and adjustments in frequencies on some QX routes?


I believe MCI and STL are being discontinued, at least temporarily. The planes are needed at SFO to fly half empty to ABQ, MSP, MCI, etc


OMA is also being discontinued temporarily.


Move OMA to the seasonal column - still, you haven't answered the question. What rapid downsizing are you talking about?
 
Jshank83
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:26 am

I noticed Skywest is back on PDX-STL. It had switched to Horizon over the summer. I also noticed STL/MCI just got extended to be on a break from Dec-mid march now instead of just December. Currently, Horizon is scheduled to fly STL-PDX again after the break.

I still find it odd they are adding all these new routes with the Horizon pilot issues.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:49 am

BlatantEcho wrote:
PDX needs a few routes to fill in the map for us travelers. I have faith that Alaska will ramp back some service when Horizon issue is solved...



Both the STL & MCI flights from PDX on AS, are on sale in March going forward, I think AS may be seasonally stooped using the QX pilot shortage.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
tphuang
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:41 am

The horizon issue is expected to last well into next year. There really is no end in sight. So just because certain routes have not been downsized, doesn't mean they will not. What we do know is that as prioritize its new hubs over sea and pdx in terms of cuts. All the as flyer I have seen on ft are basically treating current qx schedule out of pdx these days to be completely unreliable. Quite a few are switching to southwest and delta.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:20 pm

Gsdlimey wrote:
In rough numbers, SEA area is over 2x the population and around 5x the wealth of PDX area.


So SEA has 2.5x the per capita income of PDX??? I dont think so.


Why wouldnt SEA-ICT be profitable, Boeing is the reason and a quick check shows AS will be up slightly in seats for PDX
 
Chugach
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:39 pm

jsta1981 wrote:
lol "US Dollars"

Seriously though...how are we still on this? Seattle metro is double the population of Portland's metro. It's business community is robust, wealthy, and 5 times what Portland's is, including multiple international corporation headquarters that employ hundreds of thousands of employees that need to travel worldwide (microsoft, starbucks, amazon). Portland's business community is small compared to Seattle. Portland has Nike. Sure Intel employs a good chunk of people, but mostly staff, not high paid executives. The Seattle/Washington tourism scene is also much larger than Portland/Oregon. Seattle grants easy access 2 world re-known national parks (olympic, rainier), and a 3rd not so well know, but beautiful none the less (north cascades). It has Alaska cruises in the summer, the San Juan's, many tourist friendly locals in Seattle proper itself, easier access to Vancouver, BC, pro football and baseball teams. Also, has anyone ever visited Leavenworth, half the tourists in Leavenworth are from Asia. Seattle also has amazing food, coffee, and beer. Portland/Oregon has Mt. Hood, the scorched columbia river gorge, the coast, beer, food, and coffee, and a really large bookstore.

I live in Portland and love it, the airport is wonderful....but comparing it to Seattle is nonsense. It's like comparing Oakland to San Francisco or San Diego to Los Angeles, or Baltimore to Washington DC. It's not even a fair fight/comparison.
Knowing all of this, it amazes me that people still get hurt feelings that Portland doesn't get very many international flights or more flights to the east coast when compared to Seattle.


Oregon has 7 Fortune 1000 companies. A lot more than Nike and some Intel worker bees.

The whole PDX vs. SEA debate is comical. Two totally different markets with different needs.

Portland isn’t Seattle, and be thankful for that. I’ve lived both places and Portland has a far superior quality of life. Keep the crowds in Seattle.
 
Airnerd
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:46 pm

I think the lack of capacity at SEA may eventually help re establish PDX as a regional hub for AS. If the connecting opportunities exist, it's a much easier place to connect. Of course, this is dependent on resolving the regional pilot shortage.
 
BigGSFO
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:52 pm

I keep hoping for AA to make PHL year round, and add JFK and MIA. As for Europe, I think PDX won't see new flights for a few years, unless BA wants to jump on board and leverage their AS partnership further. I can see DL shifting NRT to ICN and JL stepping in. Maybe China at some point, but not soon. I read somewhere here that Portland is the smallest metro area in the US that offers year-round transatlantic and transpacific scheduled flights.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:45 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
Gsdlimey wrote:
In rough numbers, SEA area is over 2x the population and around 5x the wealth of PDX area.


So SEA has 2.5x the per capita income of PDX??? I dont think so.


Why wouldnt SEA-ICT be profitable, Boeing is the reason and a quick check shows AS will be up slightly in seats for PDX


Perhaps you aren't aware that Boeing closed the Wichita facility several years ago.

That's also an A.net fallacy in general that just because a company has a facility in abc and one in xyz, therefore there is a market for a daily flight between the two cities.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:58 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Gsdlimey wrote:
In rough numbers, SEA area is over 2x the population and around 5x the wealth of PDX area.


So SEA has 2.5x the per capita income of PDX??? I dont think so.


Why wouldnt SEA-ICT be profitable, Boeing is the reason and a quick check shows AS will be up slightly in seats for PDX


Perhaps you aren't aware that Boeing closed the Wichita facility several years ago.

That's also an A.net fallacy in general that just because a company has a facility in abc and one in xyz, therefore there is a market for a daily flight between the two cities.


I dont know then if there is aerospace related traffic or not then. But it is NO fallacy that corporate traffic is what will make or break a market. Even a few business passengers per day will make the difference between profit and loss. Volume might exist between ABC and XYZ but without business pax it doesnt work. A.netters cant argue that full flights dont equal profitability and then argue that a few business pax dont make a difference. They most certainly so. If there is volume in ABC-XYZ, then a production facility in both cities will be the deciding factor in adding service. This is a MAJOR selling point in attracting new service and airlines certainly take it into consideration. For you to call it a fallacy, is to deny reality.

Alaska has been quite successful adding new markets from SEA. No reason to think ICT wont also be successful.

So your first point may be well taken, your second is not.
 
stlgph
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:02 pm

If full flights were equal to profitability then American Trans Air would still be flying today.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 564
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Re: Portland, OR (PDX) - Airlines missing profitable opportunities...?

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:24 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
ucdtim17 wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

Aside from PSC, what route has AS stopped from PDX? In the past year or slightly more they've added MCI, MSP, OMA, MCO, AUS, TUS, STL, DAL, ABQ, DTW, JFK, EWR and seasonally BWI, MKE and PHL and a seasonal second BOS flight. So again, where is the "rapid downsizing" you're talking about beyond some temporary reductions and adjustments in frequencies on some QX routes?


I believe MCI and STL are being discontinued, at least temporarily. The planes are needed at SFO to fly half empty to ABQ, MSP, MCI, etc


they're being discontinued for a month, and you have no idea how full the flights from SFO to ABQ, MSP and MCI are or aren't.


They're being discontinued longer than that (no guarantee existing on the schedule next April means they'll for sure return) and seating charts on AS provide a reasonable approximation. There have also been innumerable QX frequency cuts at PDX (and SEA); I'm not aware of any cuts at SFO.

Different rules for SFO now than for PDX. AS wants to grow fast there and PDX is the smallest market with the least competition of SEA/SFO/LAX/SAN so PDX is currently the loser in this shuffle. It's likely temporary but that can still be a long time; it's not going to be easy for QX to quickly dig itself out of this hole.

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