micstatic
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Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:03 pm

Hi Guys.
Yes there are is a thread on whether bombardier dumped the plane and everything related to the ruling. Also a thread on how many of the C-Series orders are firm. But I wanted to have a self contained thread for Delta and what they will do next?

My guess is all along they have had a plan B. No way they will pay the tariff rates on these planes. Which is a shame. Also assuming they will have to take some action before awaiting what seems like a very lengthy appeal process.

I wouldn't suprised to see them dump the order. Defer 737-900's remaining. Order more A321 airplanes. Perhaps Airbus would also make an attractive offer on the A319neo? Would they get an E2 Embraer? I'm not so sure. The plane seems to be far less capable than the C-Series. Is it possible they would just not order any planes in the 100-130 seat class? Lots of questions.

I realize they have bought the sims already. They could just turn that into a for profit training arm for other operators of the airplane.

I really hope we see the airplane at delta. A real shame as a frequent delta flyer.
micstatic.
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masonh2479
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:11 pm

I wouldn’t think Delta would dump the order yet. I sure hope they don’t.
 
msycajun
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:20 pm

I think it's worth having a thread since DL's is such a large order, is so close to entry into their fleet, and the ruling affects them primarily . Obviously they are well into training and maintenance preparations and have no doubt done a lot of planning around the future bases and routes. Could we see older planes kept around longer while DL figures out the next steps? Seems like the best course of action would be to keep the older planes around and defer deliveries until this is cleared up.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:39 pm

I'm sure Delta's legal department will come up with a way to perhaps transfer
the order to VS , then lease the frames from them or some other clever idea.
to get around the tariff's
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:45 pm

Another topic on the same and already long discussed subject ???
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361667&start=850
 
AAvgeek744
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:47 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
I'm sure Delta's legal department will come up with a way to perhaps transfer
the order to VS , then lease the frames from them or some other clever idea.
to get around the tariff's


Why would VS want them? Red didn't work, and I can't see them building up a European network given it seems the continent is fairly saturated. Airliner World News letter this morning that the Department of Commerce was calling for a 220% tariff. I can't see DL taking them at that rate. Hopefully this gets resolved, but it's going to be messy.
 
avi8
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:03 pm

What's happening with the CS-series? Excuse my ignorance; haven't had much time lately to keep up with the aviation news.
avi8
 
Egerton
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:09 pm

This thread looking at this from the Delta side.of things is valued by me, it is on a quite different topic than the other 2 threads
Last edited by Egerton on Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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adamblang
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:09 pm

I stopped paying attention to the massive, 18-page "Boeing targets Bombardier for 'price dumping' CSeries" thread long ago so missed this development:

U.S. slaps stiff tariff on Bombardier's new jet

The U.S. Commerce Department has backed Boeing in its challenge to Bombardier, recommending an enormous tariff on sales of the Canadian firm's C Series jetliner.

The initial ruling by the International Trade Commission, an arm of the Commerce Department, recommends a 219.63% tariff on the delivery of each airliner.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/26/news/co ... index.html
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:11 pm

AAvgeek744 wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
I'm sure Delta's legal department will come up with a way to perhaps transfer
the order to VS , then lease the frames from them or some other clever idea.
to get around the tariff's


Why would VS want them? Red didn't work, and I can't see them building up a European network given it seems the continent is fairly saturated. Airliner World News letter this morning that the Department of Commerce was calling for a 220% tariff. I can't see DL taking them at that rate. Hopefully this gets resolved, but it's going to be messy.

Why would VS want them? His reasoning is literally in the text you've quoted – to do the leaseback scheme to circumvent the tariff proposed in Sooner787's comment. He didn't propose flying them in Europe – he proposed leasing them back to Delta.
146 319 320 321 332 333 343 717 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 77L 77W 788 789 AR1 AT4 CNA CR2 CR7 DC9 ER3 ERD ER4 E70 E75 E90
 
Jerry123
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:15 pm

AAvgeek744 wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
I'm sure Delta's legal department will come up with a way to perhaps transfer
the order to VS , then lease the frames from them or some other clever idea.
to get around the tariff's


Why would VS want them? Red didn't work, and I can't see them building up a European network given it seems the continent is fairly saturated. Airliner World News letter this morning that the Department of Commerce was calling for a 220% tariff. I can't see DL taking them at that rate. Hopefully this gets resolved, but it's going to be messy.

He's suggesting VS buys them then lease them to DL not operate them.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:17 pm

micstatic wrote:
Hi Guys.
Yes there are is a thread on whether bombardier dumped the plane and everything related to the ruling. Also a thread on how many of the C-Series orders are firm. But I wanted to have a self contained thread for Delta and what they will do next?


And ...

adamblang wrote:
I stopped paying attention to the massive, 18-page "Boeing targets Bombardier for 'price dumping' CSeries" thread long ago so missed this development:

U.S. slaps stiff tariff on Bombardier's new jet

The U.S. Commerce Department has backed Boeing in its challenge to Bombardier, recommending an enormous tariff on sales of the Canadian firm's C Series jetliner.

The initial ruling by the International Trade Commission, an arm of the Commerce Department, recommends a 219.63% tariff on the delivery of each airliner.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/26/news/co ... index.html
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:17 pm

Some sort of shell offshore leasing company will be set up and they will take ownership, Delta will then leave them from that entity till the issue resolved. Quebec will not let Bombardier fail and someone will either buy the program or all this gets setted after about two years of appeals. Several articles states that Bombardier and Boeing have been negotiating. About what? LikEly the sale of the C Series. Delta wants this plane, it fits there business model and the existing 717s are that there are. If they buy up lots of E2s, we'll see Boeing start this again, book it.

This amounts to a hostile takeover.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:20 pm

I hope Delta does the dirty, and gets their hands on these planes. I would love to see them base their planes in Seattle, as a way to show Boeing they can play hard ball too. How about a special scheme or paint job dedicated to the fuel savings of the C Series compared to the 737?

I would also smile ear to ear if Delta cancels all Boeing orders. It's probably a good thing I am not the Delta CEO! LOL! I want to see Bombardier succeed, and I hope we see this plane in Delta colors. I am slobbering at the chance to fly on one.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:25 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
Another topic on the same and already long discussed subject ???
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361667&start=850

It's fair to let this thread stand on its own. We get a lot of complaints about overly consolidated threads, and we also get plenty for too many split topics. The other discussion is a broader topic on Bombardier, while this focuses on the implications of a potential tariff on the Delta order.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Sooner787
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:29 pm

If Boeing thinks allowing the C Series to succeed on it's own and deal with
an independent Bombardier is scary, how about injuring BBD to the point
they sell out to Airbus and the Euros take over the C Series line?
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:30 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
Another topic on the same and already long discussed subject ???
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361667&start=850

It's fair to let this thread stand on its own. We get a lot of complaints about overly consolidated threads, and we also get plenty for too many split topics. The other discussion is a broader topic on Bombardier, while this focuses on the implications of a potential tariff on the Delta order.

✈️ atcsundevil


Fair.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:45 pm

Delta should see how many Max 7s Boeing will offer at the CS10 contract price.

I am much less sanguine that there is a 'clever' financial solution to avoid tariffs, if tariffs are finalized and sustained on appeal. The legal case is far from done.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:10 pm

I was DL I would cancel the remaining non-committed 739s on order. Move that business to Airbus for their A321 ceo/neo. I'm pretty sure DL would get a great price for them. In the end to do believe BBD & DL will prevail. Chapter 19 of NAFTA may be what it comes to. As I don't think Boeing's hold on Washington can be broken. Congrats to Boeing on make more enemies than they anticipated. Pisssing off two governments and several airlines.

DL has alot invested in the C-series...Sims in ATL are already installed and I could imagine the training program is already up & running.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:22 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I was DL I would cancel the remaining non-committed 739s on order. Move that business to Airbus for their A321 ceo/neo. I'm pretty sure DL would get a great price for them. In the end to do believe BBD & DL will prevail. Chapter 19 of NAFTA may be what it comes to. As I don't think Boeing's hold on Washington can be broken. Congrats to Boeing on make more enemies than they anticipated. Pisssing off two governments and several airlines.

DL has alot invested in the C-series...Sims in ATL are already installed and I could imagine the training program is already up & running.


There may be training of check airman on going with the CS100, but there has yet to be a bid for line pilots to transition over to the CS100.
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KCaviator
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:30 pm

And this is where Republic’s C Series order comes into play... :stirthepot:
 
texl1649
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:34 pm

DL is the big loser in all of this. RA made the bed when he swore he wouldn't order Boeing vs. Airbus unless Airbus was more than 15% higher or some such garbage. Now they're stuck with one supplier, essentially, and a vindictive former supplier on the other hand. Plus, they have a comparatively ancient fleet.

They have no easy options.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:50 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
I was DL I would cancel the remaining non-committed 739s on order. Move that business to Airbus for their A321 ceo/neo. I'm pretty sure DL would get a great price for them. In the end to do believe BBD & DL will prevail. Chapter 19 of NAFTA may be what it comes to. As I don't think Boeing's hold on Washington can be broken. Congrats to Boeing on make more enemies than they anticipated. Pisssing off two governments and several airlines.

Why would it be in Airbus's interest to offer DL a great price?

Throwing a public temper tantrum and immediately cancelling all outstanding Boeing orders and signaling you will no longer purchase Boeings is the absolute worse move DL could make. That is basically equivalent to installing a giant neon sign outside DL's ATL HQ letting Airbus know that they can feel free not to deal on future orders. It is a short sighted cutting off your nose to spite your face kind of move.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:54 pm

Why would DL order the 737-7, a 150 seat jet, that doesn't even come close to the CS300 in performance, let alone the 110 seats that DL plans on putting in the CS100? Granted DL is getting their end of line 737-900ER fleet for dirt cheap, I don't see them being able to sell DL on the 7Max at a price that it could be an alternative to the C-series over 20 years. The idea for the CS100 is to displace large regional jets and open long, thin routes from JFK, SEA and LAX. The 7Max can't do that. The CS300 is going to displace M88 and the 7Max is too heavy to financially acceptable achieve that. E90-2 and E95-2 are good alternatives, but at what cost with the investment into the infrastructure DL has already fronted for C-Series?
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
commavia
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:09 pm

texl1649 wrote:
DL is the big loser in all of this. RA made the bed when he swore he wouldn't order Boeing vs. Airbus unless Airbus was more than 15% higher or some such garbage. Now they're stuck with one supplier, essentially, and a vindictive former supplier on the other hand. Plus, they have a comparatively ancient fleet.

They have no easy options.


Hardly. Delta will be just fine. Delta has options. They may be imperfect options, and they may not be the "optimal" options that Delta originally intended. But Delta has multiple alternatives if, in the worst case scenario, the CSeries order is cancelled completely.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:11 pm

Polot wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
I was DL I would cancel the remaining non-committed 739s on order. Move that business to Airbus for their A321 ceo/neo. I'm pretty sure DL would get a great price for them. In the end to do believe BBD & DL will prevail. Chapter 19 of NAFTA may be what it comes to. As I don't think Boeing's hold on Washington can be broken. Congrats to Boeing on make more enemies than they anticipated. Pisssing off two governments and several airlines.

Why would it be in Airbus's interest to offer DL a great price?

Throwing a public temper tantrum and immediately cancelling all outstanding Boeing orders and signaling you will no longer purchase Boeings is the absolute worse move DL could make. That is basically equivalent to installing a giant neon sign outside DL's ATL HQ letting Airbus know that they can feel free not to deal on future orders. It is a short sighted cutting off your nose to spite your face kind of move.


To the contrary, I think it would signal to everyone that Delta won't take cheap from anyone without a fight. Delta already has orders and options at an already negotiated price point for widebodies for the next 10 years, the future narrowbody order would be in jeopordy as DL has enough aircraft in the fleet and on order to hold out on getting BBD to launch CS500. Delta has options.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
LMFNINJA
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:13 pm

I hope Delta bides its time until this matter is resolved in the courts or by settlement. The plane is an excellent one which suits Delta`s needs. The last thing we need is Boeing trying to impose its will on the airlines and several governments who are our allies.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:17 pm

Sancho99504 wrote:
To the contrary, I think it would signal to everyone that Delta won't take cheap from anyone without a fight. Delta already has orders and options at an already negotiated price point for widebodies for the next 10 years, the future narrowbody order would be in jeopordy as DL has enough aircraft in the fleet and on order to hold out on getting BBD to launch CS500. Delta has options.

Except without Boeing the only option available to DL for 150+ seats is Airbus. Hard to fight against Airbus's pricing unless they are willing to return to Boeing with their tail between their legs in that scenario. DL's future fleet pricing is by no means locked in already for the next 10 years.

Delta will lobby behind the scenes to reduce/eliminate the tariff obviously but they are not going to make grand public gestures against Boeing. In fact this situation puts DL in a great position to extract better deals from Boeing (and thus Airbus in response).
 
texl1649
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:34 pm

commavia wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
DL is the big loser in all of this. RA made the bed when he swore he wouldn't order Boeing vs. Airbus unless Airbus was more than 15% higher or some such garbage. Now they're stuck with one supplier, essentially, and a vindictive former supplier on the other hand. Plus, they have a comparatively ancient fleet.

They have no easy options.


Hardly. Delta will be just fine. Delta has options. They may be imperfect options, and they may not be the "optimal" options that Delta originally intended. But Delta has multiple alternatives if, in the worst case scenario, the CSeries order is cancelled completely.


Oh, they do have options, indeed. They could plausibly do A319's which if cancellation of the C-series happens toward January (perhaps faster than is realistic). They ordered 75 of these though; Airbus can't supply these birds over the next 36-60 months, and (ever shrinking/aging) Delta has real fleet replenishment needs (in almost all categories, including this one). Embraer/Mitsu/Boeing don't have the slots either (not that the latter would be considered).

Neither could BBD though. Bombardier has delivered all of 14 frames (on a forecast of 30-35 this calendar year). This is seeming more and more like the Tucker Automobile of 21st century commercial aviation. Supplier problems, larger competitors (ethically or not) using regulatory pressures to kill off key business/suppliers...etc. I am sure Bombardier will try to blame Boeing, UTC, Delta, and many others, but this whole program, nifty plane aside, is on fumes right now, despite the government cash injections.
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:34 pm

Polot wrote:
Sancho99504 wrote:
To the contrary, I think it would signal to everyone that Delta won't take cheap from anyone without a fight. Delta already has orders and options at an already negotiated price point for widebodies for the next 10 years, the future narrowbody order would be in jeopordy as DL has enough aircraft in the fleet and on order to hold out on getting BBD to launch CS500. Delta has options.

Except without Boeing the only option available to DL for 150+ seats is Airbus. Hard to fight against Airbus's pricing unless they are willing to return to Boeing with their tail between their legs in that scenario. DL's future fleet pricing is by no means locked in already for the next 10 years.

Delta will lobby behind the scenes to reduce/eliminate the tariff obviously but they are not going to make grand public gestures against Boeing. In fact this situation puts DL in a great position to extract better deals from Boeing (and thus Airbus in response).

The A330NEOs and A350s on option have already negotiated price points that covers Delta's widebody needs. Boeing can't get low enough on the Max to make up for the huge difference in overhead vs the C-Series without pissing off a lot of people, who have greatly reduced prices on their Max orders, but not to the price Boeing would have to go to make the 7Max attractive to DL. Same with Airbus and the A319NEO.

As for large narrowbodies, Boeing might be out an 8Max order as it's been strongly suggested by Ed that they will go with A321NEO. With Delta pressuring BBD to launch CS500, which would render 8Max and A320NEO unnecessary at DL, Boeing is definitely in a bind because they've already lost out on DL 7Max order.
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LAXLHR
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:43 pm

micstatic wrote:
Hi Guys.
Yes there are is a thread on whether bombardier dumped the plane and everything related to the ruling. Also a thread on how many of the C-Series orders are firm. But I wanted to have a self contained thread for Delta and what they will do next?

My guess is all along they have had a plan B. No way they will pay the tariff rates on these planes. Which is a shame. Also assuming they will have to take some action before awaiting what seems like a very lengthy appeal process.

I wouldn't suprised to see them dump the order. Defer 737-900's remaining. Order more A321 airplanes. Perhaps Airbus would also make an attractive offer on the A319neo? Would they get an E2 Embraer? I'm not so sure. The plane seems to be far less capable than the C-Series. Is it possible they would just not order any planes in the 100-130 seat class? Lots of questions.

I realize they have bought the sims already. They could just turn that into a for profit training arm for other operators of the airplane.

I really hope we see the airplane at delta. A real shame as a frequent delta flyer.
micstatic.


What a clusterF!! Boeing will deeply regret this if the ruling is upheld, and one cannot even imagine the next ruling in a few days. DL will dump the order, and good luck to Boeing holding on to DL business in the future. I think its a disgrace actually!.
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patineta89
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:43 pm

As usual, the 'small players' will end up losing. When dust settles it's Bombardier who will suffer having it's biggest order cancelled and the whole C-Series project left on the fence, IMO. Delta will do just fine with another airplane and nobody will really care about Boeing.
Another proof that the concept of free market is many times an utopia. You can have the best product ever for the job, but in the end bigger backstage interests always prevail.
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Strato2
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:48 pm

Polot wrote:
Why would it be in Airbus's interest to offer DL a great price?


Airbus would never piss on Delta considering how important customer they are and would offer them a fair price even if they got orders By default.
 
dtwpilot225
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:59 pm

I really hope delta ends up ordering more c series even if it's at a higher price just to stick it too them even more
 
texl1649
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:15 pm

Another thing I'd point out; Delta doesn't just order planes for delivery years before they're absolutely needed. They order planes when there is no amount of welding/duct tape that can keep a DC-9 in one piece.

They order fleets of used planes when the bank is desperate to unload them sometimes, but that's just an oddball/opportunistic exception. There's not a fleet of 50 newish 717's coming available in the next couple years. Delta has bragged repeatedly about keeping capital spending dramatically below competitors domestically (under 50% of cash flow), and noted 2% or less growth domestically in available seat miles (denser seating). It's highly unlikely another aircraft/order can do what the CS100 was targetted to do for them, let alone at a similar price point, given the market, their strategy, and vendor positions they would negotiate with, today.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:23 pm

I am sure DL legal is scouring over the case to find a loophole. Just tow it across the border and complete the assembly in the USA.
 
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yowza
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:33 pm

DL would not have made such a large order if they did not believe in the C Series platform/economics. They will fight to get what they want. There is plenty of opportunity for arbitrage here – a rare situation where the lawyers/bankers get to play hero.

The (up to) $5.6B order with the new tariff becomes $17.92B. That much wiggle room (plus the fuel efficiency savings that form part of the bigger calculus) means there will be plenty of lessors and banks out there willing to trot out $5.6B and provide friendly terms to DL while still taking a nice rip of the difference. The Russians do/did something similar in the past and lawyers and bankers found a way around it. That is why the vast majority of non-Russian/Soviet metal carries Bermuda registrations but native metal sits on the RA- register.

YOWza
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:39 pm

KCaviator wrote:
And this is where Republic’s C Series order comes into play... :stirthepot:


In what way? What would YX have anything to do with a DL order.
From my cold, dead hands
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:59 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
I am sure DL legal is scouring over the case to find a loophole. Just tow it across the border and complete the assembly in the USA.


Ship it in kits to Witcha to be assembled there. therefore making it a product of the USA. I think it might work. The legal minds on here can shed some light on this. Trade law is not my forte
 
oosnowrat
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:42 pm

texl1649 wrote:
commavia wrote:
Embraer/Mitsu/Boeing don't have the slots either (not that the latter would be considered.


DL could probably get OO's MRJ slots pretty easy. :)
 
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Boeing778X
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:11 pm

What's next? DL takes the 35x CS100, the rest of the order becoming CS300s, and then DL becomes a CS500 launch customer! ;)
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QXAS
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:54 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Why would it be in Airbus's interest to offer DL a great price?


Airbus would never piss on Delta considering how important customer they are and would offer them a fair price even if they got orders By default.


Tell that to the shareholders of Airbus. If they are getting orders by default they will make sure they get a good chunk of money for it. This is why FR always says they're "strongly considering" defection to Airbus, to keep Boeing on its toes. If DL does not even look at Boeing, Airbus has no reason to lower prices. This is why Airbus is making excellent yields on the A321NEO, because until last June, Boeing hardly had a competing aircraft.
I am NOT an employee of any airline or manufacturer. I speak for myself, not on the behalf of any company.
 
Leslieville
Posts: 80
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:57 pm

Here's my two cents:

The Province of Quebec will orchestrate a Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec (CDPQ) buy out of DL's CSeries order, effectively cancelling it and making the DOC preliminary ruling moot. CDPQ will then transfer the order to its Einn Volant Aircraft Leasing (EVAL) plaform, a JV with GE Aviation Capital Services. EVAL will then lease the aircraft to DL.

I don't think that Boeing comprehends the temperament of the Quebecois in the slightest. This will be a Phyrric victory for Boeing, I'm sure of it.
 
rampboy77
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:09 pm

yowza wrote:
DL would not have made such a large order if they did not believe in the C Series platform/economics. They will fight to get what they want. There is plenty of opportunity for arbitrage here – a rare situation where the lawyers/bankers get to play hero.

The (up to) $5.6B order with the new tariff becomes $17.92B. That much wiggle room (plus the fuel efficiency savings that form part of the bigger calculus) means there will be plenty of lessors and banks out there willing to trot out $5.6B and provide friendly terms to DL while still taking a nice rip of the difference. The Russians do/did something similar in the past and lawyers and bankers found a way around it. That is why the vast majority of non-Russian/Soviet metal carries Bermuda registrations but native metal sits on the RA- register.

YOWza


Does the tariff get slapped on the list price or the negotiated price? If the negotiated price it may go for it anyway. Add this battle to the EX-IM bank fight and things are fairly chilly between Boeing and DL.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5463
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:11 pm

AM may have a role to play to, AM takes the order and "leases" them to DL for $1 per month, NAFTA and all.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
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LockheedBBD
Posts: 577
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:32 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
Another topic on the same and already long discussed subject ???
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361667&start=850


That thread is just people screaming at each other....."no I'm right"..."no, you're wrong, I am right!"...
:lol:
 
KLDC10
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:52 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
AM may have a role to play to, AM takes the order and "leases" them to DL for $1 per month, NAFTA and all.


I'm sure that the lawyers can find a way to alleviate the effects of this decision. Delta is determined to get these airplanes. And I can't wait to see them in Delta colors.
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Thenoflyzone
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:12 pm

yowza wrote:
DL would not have made such a large order if they did not believe in the C Series platform/economics. They will fight to get what they want. There is plenty of opportunity for arbitrage here – a rare situation where the lawyers/bankers get to play hero.

The (up to) $5.6B order with the new tariff becomes $17.92B. That much wiggle room (plus the fuel efficiency savings that form part of the bigger calculus) means there will be plenty of lessors and banks out there willing to trot out $5.6B and provide friendly terms to DL while still taking a nice rip of the difference. The Russians do/did something similar in the past and lawyers and bankers found a way around it. That is why the vast majority of non-Russian/Soviet metal carries Bermuda registrations but native metal sits on the RA- register.

YOWza


:checkmark:

I think this is what will happen as well. As you said, Russia has similar import tarifs on foreign merchandise, and there are plenty of workarounds.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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mercure1
Posts: 4559
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:20 pm

yowza wrote:
DL would not have made such a large order if they did not believe in the C Series platform/economics.


Delta purchased the plane for one main reason -- its was cheap, and hence the problem BBD has today.

Per May 2016 quote by Delta SVP Greg May during investor event: "It was an opportunity, which was very, very compelling for us"

Using term "very" twice surely means cheap!
mercure f-wtcc
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:24 pm

Leslieville wrote:
Here's my two cents:

The Province of Quebec will orchestrate a Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec (CDPQ) buy out of DL's CSeries order, effectively cancelling it and making the DOC preliminary ruling moot. CDPQ will then transfer the order to its Einn Volant Aircraft Leasing (EVAL) plaform, a JV with GE Aviation Capital Services. EVAL will then lease the aircraft to DL.

I don't think that Boeing comprehends the temperament of the Quebecois in the slightest. This will be a Phyrric victory for Boeing, I'm sure of it.


You mean one of North America's poorest jurisdictions is going to buy up Delta's order? I am pretty certain a tariff could be applied to the leases as well.

Here is what no one is getting. Delta, even if they get the planes is stuck with them and cant get anymore 100/300s and there wont be a 500/700 CS. As the CS dies, there will be no secondary market, spare parts become expensive etc. There arent enough CS on order to replace the existing 717s much less for growth. The CS is now a potential bad order for Delta.

Yes, the Canadian govt can force AC and WS to buy Airbus. But so what? The Canadian aviation market isnt that big plus any Canadian Airbus orders mean that someone else cant buy Airbus, so they have to buy Boeing as Airbus cant simply ramp up production. With Duopolies it is hard to shift market share quickly from one producer to the other. Any Airbus gain will take up Airbus production slots forcing future orders over to Boeing from other carriers. In the end there is a rearranging of orders, but little net change in total orders for either company.

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