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smithbs
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:46 pm

I expect Delta to do what usually happens in these cases - let the lawyers work and wait for the process of law to unfold. The tariff notification is just preliminary. Whether it sticks after final review and injury determination are very open questions.

My hope:
1. No injury is determined and tariff is cancelled.
2. Boeing gets its point to Bombardier to watch it with the price when they are in bid competition. Fair enough.
3. C Series becomes very popular.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:00 pm

Polot wrote:
mptpa wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:

Not to mention the subsidies...


What if BBD assembled this in Mexico instead of Miranel? Would that make it not Canadian and escape tariff??

That would require BBD setting up and building an assembly line in Mexico and getting all the proper production certifications needed to build certified C series there. BBD would also need enough orders/high enough supply production rate to ensure that they can have the Mirabel assembly chugging along at the same time without extended periods of work stoppages. That cannot be done before 1H 2018, and in the end it would probably be cheaper for BBD to just the pay the tariffs on DL's behalf than go through all that trouble.


My suggestion would be Witchita before anything else.

What was the benefit of DL getting the CSeries derated?
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:46 pm

N212R wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
did anyone read the CNN Money article that was posted above?

Not so sure Boeing wanted to pick a flight with Bombardier.


CNN defending Delta, who would have thunk it? The two Atlanta brethren are kindred spirits in advancing their internationalist's agenda.


I've thought for years that the case can be made that Delta isn't an Atlanta/Georgia/Southeast company any longer but for sure CNN isn't.
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:48 pm

Would it be technically and financially viable for bbd to truck in green frames minus the engine to witchita or Atlanta and bolt the engines and cabin furnishing there to make the cseries American.?
 
texl1649
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:59 pm

AirbusCanada wrote:
Would it be technically and financially viable for bbd to truck in green frames minus the engine to witchita or Atlanta and bolt the engines and cabin furnishing there to make the cseries American.?


Sure. Textron folks in Wichita could assemble CS100's. Or Spirit Aerosystems. I for one would cheer on either 'solution' though I doubt it happens. For that matter, any number of final assembly sites are available in Ohio (Cleveland, or even Detroit) adjacent to the great lakes, making shipment perhaps easier. An "Imported from Detroit" logo would be most ironic.
 
trex8
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:05 pm

Maybe BBD can lease space in Mobile from Airbus!! Maybe Airbus wants to be the support and sales service for CS!
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:11 pm

zkojq wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
I am sure DL legal is scouring over the case to find a loophole. Just tow it across the border and complete the assembly in the USA.

:rotfl: Even better, do it in Seattle so that Bombardier is eligible for some of those cold, hard Washington State tax dollars which Boeing has had all to themselves in recent years. :dollarsign:


Myabe they could do a CS100 IKEA edition. Deliver the plane in flat boxes and include all nuts and bolts with some basic tooling. ;)
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
AirbusCanada
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:28 pm

No need to rent facilities. Bbd has an underutilized learlet facility in ks. If the whole plane is preassembled and test all systems. Just bolt the engines in ks, do the flight testing and stat putting furnitures. Like dassault does it in little rock or Embraer in florida. Minimum tooling and capital cost.delta tech ops might be able to cabin furnishing themselves.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:43 pm

The CS100 is not a small piece of machinery. Trucking in green frames without engines is not a trivial task. We are talking about something that is ~115'x115' (35mx35m) and something over ~30' (11.5) tall (assuming the gear would be retracted).
Last edited by Polot on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:45 pm

I really hope delta threatens to cancel its Boeing orders if this tariff goes through. The CS100 is a damn good plane. Boeing has nothing to counter it and that's its own fault. The E-jets are fugly as hell, cramped, and it feels like your flying in a creaky, plastic toy airplane. US carriers need the C-Series.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:48 pm

Polot wrote:
The CS100 is not a small piece of machinery. Trucking in green frames without engines is not a trivial task.


Rail...

Image
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:51 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Polot wrote:
The CS100 is not a small piece of machinery. Trucking in green frames without engines is not a trivial task.


Rail...

And the 737's production requires a specially planned course involving custom railcars to and from facilities designed from the onset to load/unload by rail car with procedures well established in prepping the fuselages for rail travel and to repair damage incurred during rail transportation. 737 fuselages don't just get thrown on the next random train that happens to be making its way out west.
Last edited by Polot on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tjh8402
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:51 pm

SCAT15F wrote:
I really hope delta threatens to cancel its Boeing orders if this tariff goes through. The CS100 is a damn good plane. Boeing has nothing to counter it and that's its own fault. The E-jets are fugly as hell, cramped, and it feels like your flying in a creaky, plastic toy airplane. US carriers need the C-Series.


It's Boeing's fault that no government has offered to pay for it to build a new narrow body airliner?
 
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william
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:08 pm

F9Animal wrote:
I hope Delta does the dirty, and gets their hands on these planes. I would love to see them base their planes in Seattle, as a way to show Boeing they can play hard ball too. How about a special scheme or paint job dedicated to the fuel savings of the C Series compared to the 737?

I would also smile ear to ear if Delta cancels all Boeing orders. It's probably a good thing I am not the Delta CEO! LOL! I want to see Bombardier succeed, and I hope we see this plane in Delta colors. I am slobbering at the chance to fly on one.


Yeah, its a good thing you are not Delta's CEO. I would love to know what kind of pricing you would get from Airbus being the only vendor.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:53 pm

Polot wrote:
The CS100 is not a small piece of machinery. Trucking in green frames without engines is not a trivial task. We are talking about something that is ~115'x115' (35mx35m) and something over ~30' (11.5) tall (assuming the gear would be retracted).


Fuselage, Wings and Empenage all seperate would easily fit in standard railroad loading gauge... Boeing ships larger 737s by rail and there would be no issues between Montreal and Kansas City via Buffalo/Niagara Falls for C-Series to fit.

By road could probably work but that many oversized loads might be logistically annoying. And I wonder if the CSeries fuselage would fit in an An-124? Edit: Yes, it would, though it would be too long to go in one piece.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:31 pm

This may be a non issue if 220% is just on Canadian origin content. US cannot impose surcharge on US supplied content, a major chunk of plane value. Similarly 220% wont be applicable to European and other suppliers.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:38 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
Polot wrote:
The CS100 is not a small piece of machinery. Trucking in green frames without engines is not a trivial task. We are talking about something that is ~115'x115' (35mx35m) and something over ~30' (11.5) tall (assuming the gear would be retracted).


Fuselage, Wings and Empenage all seperate would easily fit in standard railroad loading gauge... Boeing ships larger 737s by rail and there would be no issues between Montreal and Kansas City via Buffalo/Niagara Falls for C-Series to fit.

By road could probably work but that many oversized loads might be logistically annoying. And I wonder if the CSeries fuselage would fit in an An-124? Edit: Yes, it would, though it would be too long to go in one piece.

Ok lets pretend the actual transit is has no problems, now lets go through all the other issues:

-Does BBD have rail lines going to their Mirabel Facility? Google Earth suggests no. So now BBD has to build out rail lines to its Mirabel complex, then has to build a proper facility to load the pieces onto the rail cars.
- Does BBD have rail lines going to their Wichita complex? Google Earth suggest no. So now BBD has to build out rail lines to its Witicha complex, then has to build a proper facility to unload the pieces off the rail cars.
-Does BBD have the proper equipment to move these large pieces from where they are built to the loading facility in Mirabel then from the unloading facility in Witchia to the assembly hall? If not that is something else they need to design and build.
-Does BBD have available space in Wichita that can assemble and fit C series? If not then that is another hanger BBD has to find space for and build.
-Does BBD have the tooling in Wichita to properly assemble C series? No. So they need to add that.
-Does BBD have staff available in Wichita to assemble and test the C series? Likely no (I doubt BBD has people sitting at their desk twiddling their thumbs waiting for work to come in). So now BBD needs to hire new staff and train them to properly assemble the C series.
-Does BBD have all the necessary certifications to just suddenly snap together C series at Wichita and have authorities accept it as same as the certified standard built in Mirabel? No, BBD would need to obtain them and prove that the C series snapped together in Wichita is the same as popping out at Mirabel.

Suddenly this easy bring-it-to-the-US-and-snap-it-together-there idea is getting mighty expensive and time consuming. Opening up a new assembly location, even if it is just to snap together prefabricated parts, is no joke. Lets put some perspective on things. Airbus announced their selection for the Mobile, AL A320 production site in July 2012. Airbus didn't deliver their first Mobile A320 until April 2016. That is 4 years later.

Also note that Airbus's US built A320s are still built and tested under French registrations to make their life easier in regards to production/testing certifications easier. Would BBD be able to assembly C-series, even in the US, under its current Canadian certifications/rights and still consider it a "US product" that avoids the tariff? If not that is even more time and money BBD needs to spend. It is not worth BBD's money and effort to come up with solutions that cost them more than paying for the tariffs on the airline's behalf would.

You especially don't want to be in the middle of preparing a new facility solely for getting around tariffs only to have the US.Canadian governments come to an agreement and have the tariffs dropped. Oops, now BBD has wasted a lot of its time and money on nothing.
 
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11725Flyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:54 pm

These planes will be in Delta's fleet. One way or another.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:07 pm

As I stated in another post about this issue-as a Canadian taxpayer I was never comfortable with such a large subsidy that exclusively benefits an American airline and American passengers. It might be better in the long run to reverse the loss provision that was booked and find other customers in countries that don't pounce on/attack long term allies so easily.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:34 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
This may be a non issue if 220% is just on Canadian origin content. US cannot impose surcharge on US supplied content, a major chunk of plane value. Similarly 220% wont be applicable to European and other suppliers.


Thats not how customs regulations work. The good as imported is an aircraft (inclusive of engines, seats, avionics, wings, and the like).

CBP will treat the aircraft as a whole as a product of Canada as the items included in the aircraft were substantially transformed into a commercial aircraft in Canada.

CBP will assess the duty on the entirety of the aircraft - not just what may or may not be an originating Canadian good.
 
SCAT15F
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:34 pm

tjh8402 wrote:
SCAT15F wrote:
I really hope delta threatens to cancel its Boeing orders if this tariff goes through. The CS100 is a damn good plane. Boeing has nothing to counter it and that's its own fault. The E-jets are fugly as hell, cramped, and it feels like your flying in a creaky, plastic toy airplane. US carriers need the C-Series.


It's Boeing's fault that no government has offered to pay for it to build a new narrow body airliner?



They get plenty of "subsidies" from the government on the military side due to obscene overpricing (like all defense contractors). They don't need any on the commercial side.

Remember what Rumsfeld said about 2.5 trillion unaccounted for? and that was the day before 911. You can bet its at least double that now.
 
tjh8402
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:46 pm

SCAT15F wrote:
tjh8402 wrote:
SCAT15F wrote:
I really hope delta threatens to cancel its Boeing orders if this tariff goes through. The CS100 is a damn good plane. Boeing has nothing to counter it and that's its own fault. The E-jets are fugly as hell, cramped, and it feels like your flying in a creaky, plastic toy airplane. US carriers need the C-Series.


It's Boeing's fault that no government has offered to pay for it to build a new narrow body airliner?



They get plenty of "subsidies" from the government on the military side due to obscene overpricing (like all defense contractors). They don't need any on the commercial side.

Remember what Rumsfeld said about 2.5 trillion unaccounted for? and that was the day before 911. You can bet its at least double that now.


Aside from the KC-46 (who's problems I believe are currently losing Boeing $), which Boeing defense program has the US military massively overspent on? Where is this subsidy to be found? As noted in the other discussion, Boeing has actually not been a top defense manufacturer, especially with aerospace for a while. Virtually all their recent programs came from their purchase of MDD ( Who were a far bigger defense contractor a great counterpoint to the idea that DoD contracts can keep a civil airframer going). Some analysts are calling the upcoming T-X trainer competition a must win for Boeing thanks to a string of tactical aircraft competition losses.

If you're suggesting something more nefarious at work, I'd suggest Hanlon's razor: never attribute to malice that which can better be explained by stupidity.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:19 pm

Air Canada should gain considerable market share on many transborder routes, making a killing with its CS300s. (Right sized aircraft for many TB routes, having both better CASM and comfort than competition)

In order to maintain its TB market share, maybe Delta could set up a business in Canada (in partnership with Westjet, Air Transat and/or Porter), and use some CS100s on TB routes?
 
nine4nine
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:28 pm

If this ruling sticks can DL sell the frames to a non US leasing company on a lease buyback to go around this asinine decision?
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:10 am

Short answer, no. Long answer, no.
 
intl767400
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:38 am

Boeing does not want this to go to court. Attorneys can get highly sensitive information on boeing during the discovery phase. The Delta / BBD attorneys can get the sales price for all boeing sales which is information boeing does not want in the public. The discovery of sales prices will show boeing sales of aircraft below a profitable level which is what they complain BBD did with Delta. Hence, no matter what the Government agencies decree, the courts will rule much differently...possibly dumping the whole thing. Delta has won court fights over government decisions before. Government agency decisions are based off much different criteria and much different information.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:12 am

AAvgeek744 wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
I'm sure Delta's legal department will come up with a way to perhaps transfer
the order to VS , then lease the frames from them or some other clever idea.
to get around the tariff's


Why would VS want them? Red didn't work, and I can't see them building up a European network given it seems the continent is fairly saturated. Airliner World News letter this morning that the Department of Commerce was calling for a 220% tariff. I can't see DL taking them at that rate. Hopefully this gets resolved, but it's going to be messy.


The idea is that Virgin Atlantic Airways (majority-controlled by Delta Air Lines) or Aeromexico (49% controlled by Delta) would be the buyer of the frames...and then Virgin Atlantic or Aeromexico would lease the frames to the effective parent company...setting up a trust where VS or AM is the beneficiary of the trust. Since the frames were never delivered to a US owner, it would circumvent the tariff. The US government might be furious, but they would be in for major pain if airlines in the USA closed rank.

As for Delta with Boeing going forward, I can see them doing what Japan Airlines (albeit a much smaller airline) did with Boeing, basically firing them as a supplier (before the Airbus A350, JL had never ordered from Airbus).
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:16 am

Sad part for BBD, at one time they were looking at MKC as a production facility for the C-Series. In the end, Quebec made a stink and they stayed in Mirabel. Paul Tellier, many moons ago, cautioned the Beaudoins about tugging on Boeing's cape. They showed him the door.

GF
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:23 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
This may be a non issue if 220% is just on Canadian origin content. US cannot impose surcharge on US supplied content, a major chunk of plane value. Similarly 220% wont be applicable to European and other suppliers.


Thats not how customs regulations work. The good as imported is an aircraft (inclusive of engines, seats, avionics, wings, and the like).

CBP will treat the aircraft as a whole as a product of Canada as the items included in the aircraft were substantially transformed into a commercial aircraft in Canada.

CBP will assess the duty on the entirety of the aircraft - not just what may or may not be an originating Canadian good.


No country levies import duty on its own products.

UTC, Rockwell Collins, Parker Hannifin and Panasonic Aviation are few US suppliers.
All posts are just opinions.
 
AST1Driver
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:11 am

While we are dreaming, Lockheed has a nice big assembly plant in Marietta, just north of Atlanta, that could use some extra business. Maybe they could partner up with BBD and open a line there.

I still think that Delta will end up with the CS100 in the fleet. The politicians will be paid off, Delta will agree to buy more planes from Boeing (maybe agree to be the first customer for the "MOM"), and a small tariff for appearances. In the long run everyone will get something out of the deal.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:28 am

The more I think about this the more I hope the DL deal gets cancelled.
First of all BBD is having trouble ramping up production and the DL deal delay might allow them to get up and running properly.
Secondly, if the planes were sold for as low as Boeing is suggesting then I suspect another buyer will be found to replace the DL deal elsewhere by the time the deal is cancelled in 2018.
I would far rather gift the Canadian taxpayer massive subsidy to a nation that appreciates it more than our questionable allies to the south.
 
F9Animal
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:28 am

11725Flyer wrote:
These planes will be in Delta's fleet. One way or another.


I sure hope so!!! I have been anxiously waiting for them to get it. I will be booking one of the first rides on it when it does.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:49 am

LAXintl wrote:
Thenoflyzone wrote:

I think this is what will happen as well. As you said, Russia has similar import tarifs on foreign merchandise, and there are plenty of workarounds.


Except for FAA rules bar usage of foreign registered aircraft within the US except for very short (few months) temporary period.

Even more problematic, a US licensed pilot cannot operate a foreign registered aircraft within the US unless they have been issued and maintain a validated license from the country of registry. (FAR 61.3)

The ultimate point is, an aircraft intended for use within the US must be properly imported and registered in the US. This is not only an operational issue but a safety and regulatory oversight issue.


I'm asking because I don't know.

Can one not register a foreign owned aircraft? Are there not aircraft in the US owned by foreign banks/leasers?
 
intl767400
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:13 am

Times may have changed but Delta flew foreign registered 737-200 for a number of years. No special license required. I think they were registered in Ireland...EI-BOM is one of them.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:28 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
This may be a non issue if 220% is just on Canadian origin content. US cannot impose surcharge on US supplied content, a major chunk of plane value. Similarly 220% wont be applicable to European and other suppliers.


Thats not how customs regulations work. The good as imported is an aircraft (inclusive of engines, seats, avionics, wings, and the like).

CBP will treat the aircraft as a whole as a product of Canada as the items included in the aircraft were substantially transformed into a commercial aircraft in Canada.

CBP will assess the duty on the entirety of the aircraft - not just what may or may not be an originating Canadian good.


No country levies import duty on its own products.

UTC, Rockwell Collins, Parker Hannifin and Panasonic Aviation are few US suppliers.


Do we really have to go into the issue of customs valuation? A good that exits the country and returns the country in the same condition (known as American goods returned) can be readmitted or re-entered into the US duty free. However, if you have advanced the value or condition of a good (e.g., taken a Rockwell Collins radio set and incorporated it into an aircraft), you are no longer entering that good but are instead entering the further manufactured good.

For instance, if you take gold to India, where it is then made into jewelry, the gold can not be re-entered into the U.S. free of charge. Nor is the value of the gold deductable from the value of the finished jewelry.

I'm not shooting from the hip on this one. This is what I do for a living (customs work).
 
Jomar777
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:34 am

I think a thread from a DL perspective is a great one since it is the only major order for the frame.
I doubt it that DL will take any action until at least the second ruling in FEB2018. After then they will re-access. This does not means that they may already been considering their actions right now.
It has already been mentioned that a lease of planes during this process might be the best solution and I agree depending on how long this dispute is expected to run. Maybe a postpone the retirement of some planes also.
The idea to get shirty with Boeing is the worse idea I have ever seen. OK, DL is not buying much from B at present despite the remaining B739 orders but they will certainly would not want to alienate a maker of that size and play themselves on Airbus's hands.
Even more now that Boeing is now planning their MOM 797 which may, potentially, as already mentioned, a new frame to properly replace the B757 which was slightly niche but sorely missed so far. Unless Airbus counters this with a, let's say, A322, that would be beyond dumb.
To allow VS to buy the CSeries and lease back or create an offshore entity would be stupid to say the least since that would automatically play on slight increase of the price of the order (to avoid tax evasion issues for VS or whoever) and would not prevent the tariff being applied (they ruling says that). It would actually incur extra fines since they would be seen as trying to dodge the system.

DL can either dump this order altogether (I find it unlikely but may happen) or they can bite the bullet and take them anyway (their comment that they are going ahead with the order due to lack of suitable aircraft on that range is simply a political statement).

I wonder that the most likely outcome would maybe for DL to slow down delivery of the frames so as to pay the fine "in instalments" gradually receiving the frames on a more stretched timeframe to ease off the leveraged costs through their finances and allow the aircraft to work for them and generate the performance (financial and operational) that they expect.

In meantime, either BBD successfully defend themselves (they have not done a good job so far doing so) or sells more frames elsewhere making the project gears up towards profit which may allow them to prove that the investment received from the Canadian Government and the UK is really a viable one - this may allow the to overturn the present decision.
 
NZ321
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:56 am

Why can't Delta officially cancel the order, then a non-US leasing company buy the aircraft and on-lease them to Delta?
Why can't US airlines lease aircraft from overseas lessors for whatever the lease deal is?
Plane mad!
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:54 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:

Thats not how customs regulations work. The good as imported is an aircraft (inclusive of engines, seats, avionics, wings, and the like).

CBP will treat the aircraft as a whole as a product of Canada as the items included in the aircraft were substantially transformed into a commercial aircraft in Canada.

CBP will assess the duty on the entirety of the aircraft - not just what may or may not be an originating Canadian good.


No country levies import duty on its own products.

UTC, Rockwell Collins, Parker Hannifin and Panasonic Aviation are few US suppliers.


Do we really have to go into the issue of customs valuation? A good that exits the country and returns the country in the same condition (known as American goods returned) can be readmitted or re-entered into the US duty free. However, if you have advanced the value or condition of a good (e.g., taken a Rockwell Collins radio set and incorporated it into an aircraft), you are no longer entering that good but are instead entering the further manufactured good.

For instance, if you take gold to India, where it is then made into jewelry, the gold can not be re-entered into the U.S. free of charge. Nor is the value of the gold deductable from the value of the finished jewelry.

I'm not shooting from the hip on this one. This is what I do for a living (customs work).


I didn't raise the valuation on purpose because two PW1500Gs are $20MM at list exported from the USA to Canada and entire plane is probably slightly over $20MM coming back into the USA.

How about if BBD ferries the plane in and takes back engines and avionics. Interior supplier Zodiac can finish the work in the USA.

No American corporation is going to pay $12.32B penalties on $5.6B order.

What pisses me off, when Boeing, Washington State, and EXIM actively discounted aircraft sales to foreign carriers, which are used to dump capacity, lower price on US carriers, no one cared about Delta's complaints. A 65% discounted wide body can no way meet the build cost.

But now the US has proposed penalties on Delta???
All posts are just opinions.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:56 am

NZ321 wrote:
Why can't Delta officially cancel the order, then a non-US leasing company buy the aircraft and on-lease them to Delta?
Why can't US airlines lease aircraft from overseas lessors for whatever the lease deal is?



Because the goods still have to be entered into the USA, the goods are still of Canadian origin, Bombardier knows that the good are ultimately destined for a US customer. The very definition of middleman dumping and not allowed under US law.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:01 am

The easiest solution is assembling the DL frames inside the USA most likely in Wichita, at Bombardiers Learjet facility. Transport the parts by aeroplane.
For the freighter used there are several possibilities. An A300-600ST for example or more likely a AN-124. The AN-124 cargo compartment size is 36×6.4×4.4 m. Should be able to take a whole CS100 fuselage without wings and empennage, perhaps even the CS300 fuselage without the tail cone, worst case you fly low with the ramp in the back open if you need a meter. Ship the fuselage, wings and tail planes separately and assemble in Wichita. Have the fuselage prepared as far as possible to reduce work done there.

Meanwhile slap customs on Boeing frames imported to Canada. Boeing delivered at least 400 787 frames, some of them to Canada, below production cost. How is the production cost of the first few hundred 737MAX compared to the sales price?

Here are some people believing that Delta will not dump on Boeing. IMO Boeing will not sell an aeroplane to Delta the next ten years, and Boeing will be lucky if Delta does not cancel all outstanding orders. The hope that Airbus will than squeeze Delta is also a forgone hope. There are a few airlines buying only from one of the big producers. For Boeing you have RyanAir, Southwest and even little Icelandair do not really look at Airbus. I know that Icelandair has made very good deals with Boeing through the years. On Airbus side you have EasyJet, Jetblue and Spirit airlines for example. In all those cases if a producer dumps on a loyal customers to make a few bucks more, it will backfire in te worst way.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:00 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Because the goods still have to be entered into the USA, the goods are still of Canadian origin, Bombardier knows that the good are ultimately destined for a US customer. The very definition of middleman dumping and not allowed under US law.


How would a Connecticut built PW1500G be a Canadian origin? It is not like USA gold turned into jewelry in India.

Most avionics are swappable modules, there is nothing BBD doing to those modules other than plugging them in.
All posts are just opinions.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:22 pm

Its going to depend on a lot of factors. Namely, the amount of work that is done to a component overseas in the foreign country. If you take American fishing reel and attach it to a fishing rod in Canada and bring the rod and reel into the United States, there is a provision in Chapter 98 that allows you to not pay the duty on the value of the reel.

With aircraft components, I think the test is going to be a lot more complicated. There are multiple tests that one has to clear in order for it to be accorded Chapter 98 treatment. Its not simple. And, with a product being entered under the envelope of antidumping duties, USCBP is going to look at any entry or claim with a very narrow eye.
Last edited by washingtonflyer on Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
NZ321
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:28 pm

So no US airlines lease aircraft from foreign lessors because of middle man?
Plane mad!
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:31 pm

There may be plenty of leases from foreign entities. The issue is that you're intending on leasing an aircraft from a company for the sole purpose of avoiding duties, and I can tell you that won't work.
 
Dash9
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:37 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
Because the goods still have to be entered into the USA, the goods are still of Canadian origin, Bombardier knows that the good are ultimately destined for a US customer. The very definition of middleman dumping and not allowed under US law.


How would a Connecticut built PW1500G be a Canadian origin? .


Because it was built in Mirabel, Canada. PW has an assembly line for the PW1500 that is a few hundred meters away from the Cseries FAL
 
CS500
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:38 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
There may be plenty of leases from foreign entities. The issue is that you're intending on leasing an aircraft from a company for the sole purpose of avoiding duties, and I can tell you that won't work.


What about certifying a 99 seat version and changing the sale to Delta to be that model? That should be outside the duty scope of 100-150 seats, and thus get around it (at a ~10% loss of capacity on the aircraft).
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:47 pm

Dash9 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
Because the goods still have to be entered into the USA, the goods are still of Canadian origin, Bombardier knows that the good are ultimately destined for a US customer. The very definition of middleman dumping and not allowed under US law.


How would a Connecticut built PW1500G be a Canadian origin? .


Because it was built in Mirabel, Canada. PW has an assembly line for the PW1500 that is a few hundred meters away from the Cseries FAL


Again this is getting complicated and into the very fine points of customs law. If PW had a fully manufactured PW1500 shipped from its US facility, it enters Canada, and is shipped to Mirabel, and is literally bolted onto the wing of a CS100 without any modifications, you -could- make an argument for duty free exemption on the value of the engine.

If the engine needs the cowling to be assembled in Canada or some of the ducting assembled in Canada or the exhaust vents assembled in Canada, you've advanced the condition of the engine and you're running the risk of losing the duty exemption.

Here's a simple example on the intricacies: take a piece of steel pipe for use as an exhaust manifold for a truck and the steel pipe is exported from the USA to Canada to be assembled in Canada. If the steel pipe is simply welded onto the truck body, you've probably got a good case for Chapter 9802 duty exemption. If the steel pipe has to have a s-shaped bend to it or has to have an attachment added onto it to vent the exhaust gases away at a 45 degree angle, you're likely going to lose the duty exemption.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:53 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
The easiest solution is assembling the DL frames inside the USA most likely in Wichita, at Bombardiers Learjet facility. Transport the parts by aeroplane.
For the freighter used there are several possibilities. An A300-600ST for example or more likely a AN-124. The AN-124 cargo compartment size is 36×6.4×4.4 m. Should be able to take a whole CS100 fuselage without wings and empennage, perhaps even the CS300 fuselage without the tail cone, worst case you fly low with the ramp in the back open if you need a meter. Ship the fuselage, wings and tail planes separately and assemble in Wichita. Have the fuselage prepared as far as possible to reduce work done there.


The CS-100 fuselage won't quite fit despite the basic dimensions in one piece due to the shape of the cargo hold of the 124, the tail end ends up being slightly too tall once a transport cradle is added under.

However if it's shipped as the 2 or 3 pieces that it's manufactured as (CS-300 as well) it'll fit nicely.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
bmacleod
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:02 pm

My personal thoughts are unless there is a huge order from an Asian/European carrier - without the DL order the C-Series is effectively finished. :tombstone:

The next six months are going to be very critical....
Last edited by bmacleod on Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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EMBSPBR
Posts: 676
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Re: Delta: C-Series What's Next

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:16 pm

SCAT15F wrote:
The E-jets are fugly as hell, cramped, and it feels like your flying in a creaky, plastic toy airplane.


They are so plastic that they fall apart every day. That´s why so far between sales and purchase options for both E1 and E2 families has more than 2,300 units ???
Some airlines that enjoy our "plastic" airplanes: Aeroméxico, Air Canada, Air Europe, Air France, Alaska Airlines, Alitalia, American Airlines, Austrian Airlines, Blue, British Airways, China Southern, Copa Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Finnair, Flybe, J-Air, Helvetic, KLM, LOT, Lufthansa, TAP Air Portugal, Tianjan Airlines, United Airlines, .. just to mention a few.

SCAT15F wrote:
US carriers need the C-Series.


Yes, that´s why they sold a lot to many other US carriers ... Wait, no, except for Delta Air Lines for an appeling price...

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