PlaneHunter
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Updated: LH to operate Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November and December

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:13 am

Many years after Lufthansa stopped operating Airbus A300-600s, it will bring widebodies back onto a domestic route on a larger scale - at least for a limited period of time: Between November 1 and November 30, LH will operate Boeing 747-400s between Frankfurt and Berlin/Tegel and replace A32X aircraft on 63 roundtrips. On certain days, there will be several 747 roundrips. As reported by a German travel site, a LH spokesman has just referred to capacity reasons. I guess LH has added capacity because Air Berlin may not be flying any more in November. However, AB only operates four daily roundrips between FRA and TXL, so there may also be other reasons for LH's decision. It remains to be seen what happens after November.

You can find a detailed list of days/flights here (German only), scroll to reply no. 517:
http://www.vielfliegertreff.de/airlines ... ost2425566

Story also reported here (German only):
https://travel-dealz.de/blog/lufthansa-747-kurzstrecke/


PH
Last edited by PlaneHunter on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LH658
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:19 am

great chance to fly a 747, before they are gone.
 
Siddar
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:21 am

Why?
 
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BobMUC
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:10 am

PlaneHunter wrote:
...I guess LH has added capacity because Air Berlin may not be flying any more in November. However, AB only operates four daily roundrips between FRA and TXL, so there may also be other reasons for LH's decision...


Maybe not only to cover these four round-trips between FRA and TXL, but to route other "stranded" AB passengers via their FRA hub.
 
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LFLL
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:16 am

Maybe to anticipate the arrival of one LCC on this route ?
LFLL
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:28 am

LFLL wrote:
Maybe to anticipate the arrival of one LCC on this route ?


Maybe, maybenot.

Berlin <> Frankfurt :

LH will expand capacity for the month of November ?only?.

Deutsche Bahn will _double_ ICE HSR capacity beginning in December
when the winter timetables go active.
( going from an hourly relation to a 30min frequency.)
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am

LFLL wrote:
Maybe to anticipate the arrival of one LCC on this route ?


probably not, as this route is mostly used by business travelers, which need the frequency of LH.
LCCs would not implement a shuttle like schedule anyway.
Also the DB is already very fast on this route and if you book early tickets within Germany are less than 30EUR so price sensitive passengers most likely go for that anyway.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:23 am

PlaneHunter wrote:
However, AB only operates four daily roundrips between FRA and TXL, so there may also be other reasons for LH's decision.


PH


Is it me but it seems that AB operates 7 to 8 roundtrips per day ???? With LH up to 18, it then makes sense to upgauge some flights in anticipation of AB demise and possible takeover of TXL slots by U2 (I cant imagine them flying such a short route competed by train)
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:27 am

For some reason I had to check that it is 2017 and not 1948 to 1949. Of course there was no 744 back then, but still. :D
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:34 am

These are the kind of ideas we usually only see floated on here.... ;)
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:58 am

Berlin airlift 2.0 :)

Great way to fly in 744 before her retirement.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:00 pm

huaiwei wrote:
For some reason I had to check that it is 2017 and not 1948 to 1949. Of course there was no 744 back then, but still. :D


Sorry, didn't follow you...
 
holzmann
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:29 pm

I wonder if it would have been more economical to lease some 777/777Ws instead? Does LH really have that many underused 744s?
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SQ325
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:39 pm

I heard a Rumor that a Slot at TXL filled with a wide body is worth 4 narrow body slots!
And because everyone is expect ion AB to be out of money by then LH is trying to secure as much as they can!
Only a rumor!!!
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:48 pm

ojjunior wrote:
huaiwei wrote:
For some reason I had to check that it is 2017 and not 1948 to 1949. Of course there was no 744 back then, but still. :D


Sorry, didn't follow you...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:50 pm

ojjunior wrote:
huaiwei wrote:
For some reason I had to check that it is 2017 and not 1948 to 1949. Of course there was no 744 back then, but still. :D


Sorry, didn't follow you...

The user was referring to the Berlin Airlift.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:50 pm

holzmann wrote:
I wonder if it would have been more economical to lease some 777/777Ws instead? Does LH really have that many underused 744s?

It's not like they have that many 777 crews anyway, and November is when W17 kicks in, I guess there will be plenty of downtime for the 744 fleets.

Plus it's not a long flight after all, if they can find a 6-hr gap, that's good enough. And it's only 63 flights that we're talking about, which basically translates into 2 flights a day. Shouldn't be too difficult for an airline of LH's size.

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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:55 pm

That's very interesting, many thanks for the information. I'll be in Germany in November, so I may just book one of those flights.
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:02 pm

SQ325 wrote:
I heard a Rumor that a Slot at TXL filled with a wide body is worth 4 narrow body slots!
And because everyone is expect ion AB to be out of money by then LH is trying to secure as much as they can!
Only a rumor!!!


With AB gone, getting slots at TXL shouldn't be any issue
 
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ro1960
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:12 pm

Where will they be parked? Remote stands? Can TXL accommodate 747s at contact gates?
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SQ325
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:26 pm

[/quote]

With AB gone, getting slots at TXL shouldn't be any issue[/quote]

Not quite correct!
In case of a sudden grounding slots will be given on a first come first serve basis! E.g Ryanair which is LHs major concern
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:28 pm

SQ325 wrote:


With AB gone, getting slots at TXL shouldn't be any issue[/quote]

Not quite correct!
In case of a sudden grounding slots will be given on a first come first serve basis! E.g Ryanair which is LHs major concern[/quote]

Ryanair can't operate their entire current schedule due to staffing issues; they are not going to be in a position to quickly grab slots or do their 'rescue' flights elsewhere.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:37 pm

huaiwei wrote:
For some reason I had to check that it is 2017 and not 1948 to 1949. Of course there was no 744 back then, but still. :D



I was thinking the same thing!
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:44 pm

According to welt.de, LH is "overrun with bookings" for domestic flights and cannot meet demand with narrowbodies:
https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article1 ... t-ein.html
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:16 pm

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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:08 pm

ojjunior wrote:
huaiwei wrote:
For some reason I had to check that it is 2017 and not 1948 to 1949. Of course there was no 744 back then, but still. :D


Sorry, didn't follow you...



Berlin airlift at end of WW2.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:55 pm

rbavfan wrote:
ojjunior wrote:
huaiwei wrote:
For some reason I had to check that it is 2017 and not 1948 to 1949. Of course there was no 744 back then, but still. :D


Sorry, didn't follow you...



Berlin airlift at end of WW2.


I dont know how long WW2 lasted for you but it did end in 1945 for the rest of the world. :D The Berlin airlift was from 1948–1949.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:14 am

Did you read his post? All you did was re-state the dates he did.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:24 am

Disgusting.... That I don't live over in Germany and live here in the US where DL and UA are getting rid of their 747's without doing more domestic flying.
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:53 am

Will they sell C and F on these flights?
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:23 am

filipair wrote:
Will they sell C and F on these flights?


They will sell C but F is not available in the 747-400 anymore.
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:08 pm

I always find myself wondering how do airlines know that there is a greater than normal demand for a certain leg at a certain date to increase the seat offer...
If the interested party could not book because the flight is full, how on Earth does the airline knows? Website algorithms, maybe? What about all other sales channels interest?
In long term, for a new route is one thing, but there are airlines upgauging aircraft from one day to another then back to previous, how's this possible???
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:31 am

ojjunior wrote:
I always find myself wondering how do airlines know that there is a greater than normal demand for a certain leg at a certain date to increase the seat offer...
If the interested party could not book because the flight is full, how on Earth does the airline knows? Website algorithms, maybe? What about all other sales channels interest?
In long term, for a new route is one thing, but there are airlines upgauging aircraft from one day to another then back to previous, how's this possible???


I think most airlines do not worry too much about these one-off demand spikes because they are time-consuming to plan and require coordination from various departments. Imagine if JJ decides to upgauge a few random GRU-POA-GRU flights to 77W. They need to have those flights staffed with 77W pilots, need more flight attendants are assigned to those flights, need containers for bags are available in POA. If the flight had been already schedule with an A320 and the change is short notice, JJ may be paying those A320 pilots regardless of them flying or not. Then those extra seats need to be available many days in advance so that the market consumes them. In the end they may carry a lot more passengers but it is a bit of a futile exercise in increasing profits.

In this case LH seems to understand there is an issue with seat supply in TXL because of Air Berlin and is making many changes 5 weeks out.
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:18 am

The 744 service between FRA and TXL will be prolonged. Last flight is now scheduled for December, 21st.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:30 am

Lufthansa could surely use their old A300s for that purpose maybe they are looking into the 797 it would surely fit their network.......
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:14 pm

columba wrote:
Lufthansa could surely use their old A300s for that purpose maybe they are looking into the 797 it would surely fit their network.......


They could even use their old DC 10s
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:13 pm

What about JU-52s? :-)
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:33 pm

columba wrote:
Lufthansa could surely use their old A300s for that purpose maybe they are looking into the 797 it would surely fit their network.......


And where supposedly are Lufthansa hiding their old A300's?

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Lufthansa are looking into the 797 as such an aircraft does not currently exist and only on here do posters assume it's actually happening, until such time that Boeing actually commit to the 797 and released details will airlines such as Lufthansa be 'looking at it' because as yet no one knows for sure what type of aircraft the 797 will end up being.
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:37 pm

All their Berlin-Traffic from Frankfurt is planned to become A321. So a bigger A321 might be needed next.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:39 pm

Siddar wrote:
Why?


Trying to get first place on air-empires.com by being a spamliner?
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:53 pm

columba wrote:
Lufthansa could surely use their old A300s for that purpose maybe they are looking into the 797 it would surely fit their network.......

I'd easily book a r/t ticket just to fly the good old A300 if it was still around...

Cunard wrote:
And where supposedly are Lufthansa hiding their old A300's?

Under the ground at FRA apparently:
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:58 pm

why does LH not retrieve some 340-600's from retirement? These could be helping out free-ing up 744s for the Berlin Airlift 2.0 ;)
Can imagine that the 340-600 would not be capable of serving TXL due to the sheer length of the frame.
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:37 pm

Has LH stated that they are getting rid of their 744s? If so, by when? I assume they would keep their 748 for a long time as they are still new and last I read they are very happy with them. True?
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:45 pm

andymartin wrote:
What about JU-52s? :-)


They only have one single airframe available.
.. and the Starliner is not ready yet.

Though maybe they could borrow some Junkers F-13 from Rimowa ?
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:47 pm

WesternA318 wrote:
huaiwei wrote:
For some reason I had to check that it is 2017 and not 1948 to 1949. Of course there was no 744 back then, but still. :D



I was thinking the same thing!

I concur. This is Berlin Airlift 2.0. :)

But are they hauling coal? ;)

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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:16 pm

ojjunior wrote:
I always find myself wondering how do airlines know that there is a greater than normal demand for a certain leg at a certain date to increase the seat offer...
If the interested party could not book because the flight is full, how on Earth does the airline knows? Website algorithms, maybe? What about all other sales channels interest?
In long term, for a new route is one thing, but there are airlines upgauging aircraft from one day to another then back to previous, how's this possible???

They 'know' because every enquiry (internet, travel agent, airline desk, etc) triggers an online search/request. Each and every permutation of date and time, and the willingness / resistance to acceptance higher prices, is tracked.

As a customer, you can 'play' some of this predictive selling software, but it doesn't work for products and services with finite availability. Say you need to buy new tyres next month. Visit a couple of the cheapest and slickest online sites every day for a couple of weeks. Start enquiring about specific make/model/size of tyres. Do so for 6-7 days, each day. Then over the next couple of days put the tyres into and out of your basket. Then start checkout, but stop part way through. Usually by day 4 you will receive a personalised offer you can't refuse.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:21 pm

VC10er wrote:
Has LH stated that they are getting rid of their 744s? If so, by when? I assume they would keep their 748 for a long time as they are still new and last I read they are very happy with them. True?

I talked to a LH 744 captain early this year. He said they should be around for another 7 years or so.
 
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Re: Updated: LH to operate Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November and December

Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:13 pm

This seems like the sort of route where a MOM would do very well and an A322 even better.
 
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Re: Lufthansa to operate 63 Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:29 am

lightsaber wrote:
But are they hauling coal? ;)


for sure. Into their pockets :-)

German : Kohle ~= ( colloquial for ) Money.
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uta999
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Re: Updated: LH to operate Boeing 747-400 roundtrips between Frankfurt and Berlin in November and December

Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:27 am

I would probably take a trip if it were a 748. LH should sub a few 744s to get more of us lot on-board. Do you see what I did there?
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