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FoxtrotSierra
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Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:04 am

I recently flew into IST for the first time and noticed that it appeared significantly busier than any other airport I have ever flown into. You can easily see a queue of at least 8-10 aircraft lined up to land during most of the day, and I wondered how this is. I then realized that it is the only airport in the top 20 to use one runway exclusively for arrivals and the other for departures. I imagine that this makes each runway much busier than those at other airports which can squeeze in departures in between arrivals across multiple runways.

1. ATL
2. PEK
3. DXB
4. LAX
5. HND
6. ORD
7. LHR
8. HKG
9. PVG
10. CDG
11. DFW
12. AMS
13. FRA
14. IST

The first 13 airports all have multiple landing runways, IST only has one. Does that mean that when measured by most movements for a single runway (not to be confused with a single runway airport), IST has the highest frequency for a single runway? If so, that probably explains why IST appears significantly busier than every other airport ahead of it which distribute the arrival and departure flows across several runways and why their ILS can handle 10 aircraft at a time! :o
 
a320fan
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Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:09 am

I may be wrong. But doesn't LHR segregate Landings and departures.
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eicvd
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Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:23 am

    a320fan wrote:
    I may be wrong. But doesn't LHR segregate Landings and departures.

    Yes LHR is the same apart from the very odd landing or take off on the arrival or departure runway.
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    JoKeR
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:34 am

    Dubai is the same, alternating direction runways used almost exclusively for departure and arrival, though FZ is known to creep in during less busier departure times for a landing or two...
     
    Carpethead
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:01 am

    Technically, IST is a three runway airport and can use the other non-parallel runway for arrivals/departures too.
    I have not been there in years, so I have no idea how they operate now.

    HKG is a two runway airport with runway use largely segregated by landing on the Runway 7L/25R (farther from land) and departures on 7R/25L (the closer one to the island).
    Some arrivals do occasionally come in on Runway 7R/25L, such as cargo.
     
    BENAir01
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:46 pm

    I think most of the busiest airports have runways exclusively for departures and ones exclusively for arrivals.
    For example ATL - the inboard runways are for departures, the outside ones for arrivals. Or AMS which doesn’t even have full length taxiways on some runways, so they can only be used for departures on inedircectiin and arrivals in the other.
    I’m fact PEK may be the only airport that routinely does takeoffs and landings at the same time on the same runway...
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    george77300
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:58 pm

    Yes DXB and LHR both use one runway for landing and the other for takeoffs. Other than a few exceptions such as LHR is the early morning has about 1 hour of just landings on both runways due to night curfew/closure.
     
    leftyboarder
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:14 pm

    The only exception for IST is that the landing and take off runways are not parallel, and as a result the overall capacity is lower than airports like DXB or LHR with parallel runways.
     
    Thenoflyzone
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:47 pm

    leftyboarder wrote:
    The only exception for IST is that the landing and take off runways are not parallel, and as a result the overall capacity is lower than airports like DXB or LHR with parallel runways.


    Having parallel runways doesn't necessarily mean have higher usage capability, especially when you are using them in segregated mode (DXB, LHR) or if they are too close together to be used independently (DXB)

    In IST's case, even though the arrival and departure runways aren't parallel, the usage rate is similar to DXB or LHR. Currently, they are landing on rwy 05, and departing on 35L. That config means the runways can be operated independently, similar to parallel runways that are far enough apart.

    IST does 35-40 arrivals and 35-40 departures on each runway, same as DXB or LHR.
    Last edited by Thenoflyzone on Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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    globetrotter94
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:49 pm

    leftyboarder wrote:
    The only exception for IST is that the landing and take off runways are not parallel, and as a result the overall capacity is lower than airports like DXB or LHR with parallel runways.


    I fail to see how this is the case. Take-offs at IST are usually from 35L/R and landings are usually on 05--and 05/23 is well south of the end of 35L/R. So the flightpaths of departing and arriving aircraft never intersect.
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    PatrickZ80
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:40 pm

    globetrotter94 wrote:
    leftyboarder wrote:
    The only exception for IST is that the landing and take off runways are not parallel, and as a result the overall capacity is lower than airports like DXB or LHR with parallel runways.


    I fail to see how this is the case. Take-offs at IST are usually from 35L/R and landings are usually on 05--and 05/23 is well south of the end of 35L/R. So the flightpaths of departing and arriving aircraft never intersect.


    But they might be in case of a go-around. If I remember correctly, Zurich has the same problem.
     
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    globetrotter94
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:03 pm

    PatrickZ80 wrote:
    globetrotter94 wrote:
    leftyboarder wrote:
    The only exception for IST is that the landing and take off runways are not parallel, and as a result the overall capacity is lower than airports like DXB or LHR with parallel runways.


    I fail to see how this is the case. Take-offs at IST are usually from 35L/R and landings are usually on 05--and 05/23 is well south of the end of 35L/R. So the flightpaths of departing and arriving aircraft never intersect.


    But they might be in case of a go-around. If I remember correctly, Zurich has the same problem.


    True that... hadn't considered it. However, in case of go-around, seems like there is plenty of open airspace above Sea of Marmara if go-around traffic is diverted southwards...
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    kordcj
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:35 pm

    The list presented is not reflective of airport ranking by aircraft movements is it?
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    NichCage
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:47 pm

    How many flights movements can IST handle per hour?

    The new Istanbul Airport should have little delays compared to IST.
     
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    TS-IOR
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:49 pm

    IST preferred runway for arrival is 05 and the 35s are either used separately or simultaneously to reduce ground delay. Things get tricky when they need to land 23 or 17 and depart 17 due converging paths. In that case the whole patterns switch in favour of the 17s where one is used for landings and the other for departures and 23 remains on stand-by.
     
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    mafaky
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:22 pm

    For the record: There are three runways at IST, but technically speaking it's a two runway airport. The two 3000 mt. "parallel" runways i.e. 17R-35L & 17L-35R are not apart enough for the minimal required distance for simultaneous operations. Only one of these can back up the other, in case of need.

    The newly building airport (cuurrently known as INA, IATA code yet unallocated...) on the Black Sea Coast will eventually boast 6 runways (four of them 60x3.750 mt, one 60x4.100 mt long in N/S direction and which can be operated independently. 6th will be a 60x3.000 mt. one in E/W direction...). The first two runways to become operational with the 90-million pax capacity terminal (claimed to be the biggest airport terminal to be built under the same single roof) will be the 3.750 mt. & 4.100 mt. runways and each of these will also have a 45 mt. wide emergency parallel runway plus the usual/routine parallel taxiway.

    In between these two runways (centerlines 1.750 mt. apart) will be located several MRO facilities, a 95 mt. height tulip shaped ATC tower, a real big Cargo Terminal and several other support facilities.
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    bravoindia
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:43 pm

    Quite simply to answer the title, ATL departs inboards and arrives outboards with special provisions for Triple departures, but aside from "special circumstances" this is the norm. ATL is worlds busiest. So there is your answer.
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    ILS28ORD
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:42 pm

    kordcj wrote:
    The list presented is not reflective of airport ranking by aircraft movements is it?


    I agree I think the list he listed is busiest airports by passenger traffic. Busiest airports by aircraft movements looks a bit different and is more relevant to this topic.
     
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    lightsaber
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:21 pm

    With the in use runways crossing, compromises must be done to improve safety. Looking at a satellite photo of the airport, it looks as if only one runway is really well suited to control takeoff noise.

    NichCage wrote:
    How many flights movements can IST handle per hour?

    The new Istanbul Airport should have little delays compared to IST.

    The new Istanbul Airport is well designed for growth. By not having crossing runways, it is poised for allowed 2X the aircraft per hour as the old. Now, I expect it to grow and be impacted.



    Maybe it is a US perspective, but two runway airports are so tiny. It amazes me how many movements some airports have with only two runways. I fully realize DXB, LHR, and IST are major airports that function with two runways. But honestly, with so much growth in air travel coming as the next few billion people enter the middle class, I cannot get excited about the impacted airports as growth will shift to the airports that can grow. e.g., the new IST airport is one year away, so it isn't worth investing in the old IST airport. SAW will gain a 2nd runway, ETA 2019 FWIW. But because of lack of growth in European runways, we'll see growth at the ME3, Ethiopia, or the US side (in particular after the A321LR hits the skies, but I'm impressed by what Norwegian and other LCCs are doing TATL).

    We'll see more and more hub bypass with longer range narrowbodies. I'm not saying hubbing will go away (it is needed on a mass scale), I'm saying that hubs that are less competitive or over-crowded will be bypassed.

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    dwachdorf
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:06 pm

    I had a follow-on question regarding airports (such as LAX and ATL) that have 4 parallel runways. Why do they typically use the outboard (from the terminal) for arrivals and the inboard for departures. This seems like a less safe configuration (from my untrained understanding).

    You have arrivals crossing at the departure end, where it's hard for planes to stop. It seems like in the case of an on-ground collisions, it would be easier to avoid the collision by having departures cross at the approach where an arrival could abort landing and go around.
     
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    atcsundevil
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:23 pm

    dwachdorf wrote:
    I had a follow-on question regarding airports (such as LAX and ATL) that have 4 parallel runways. Why do they typically use the outboard (from the terminal) for arrivals and the inboard for departures. This seems like a less safe configuration (from my untrained understanding).

    You have arrivals crossing at the departure end, where it's hard for planes to stop. It seems like in the case of an on-ground collisions, it would be easier to avoid the collision by having departures cross at the approach where an arrival could abort landing and go around.

    ATL actually has five runways. I'm not a tower guy, but my understanding is that the inner runways are used for departures for two main reasons: taxiway setups and safety/efficiency. Two parallel runways typically have one taxiway running between, and that taxiway needs to be keep clear to get arriving aircraft off the arrival runway for the next aircraft. It's also easier to cross aircraft between departures than it is with arrivals — it's generally considered the safer and more controlled way of doing things. Crossing in front of an arrival potentially means having to issue a go around if the crossing aircraft is too slow, whereas a crossing aircraft in front of a departure would just delay the takeoff clearance. It also allows them to "stack" crossings, meaning multiple aircraft are waiting to cross on multiple taxiways, and a space is given between two departures (most ideal when increased spacing for wake turbulence is already needed) to cross multiple aircraft at once. Doing that in between arrivals enhances the risks involved.

    ATL actually went a step further and put looping taxiways around some runways to cross aircraft during busier times. It allows aircraft to cross behind the threshold from departing aircraft so that crossing and departing aircraft operate independently. It increases taxi times, but it keeps aircraft moving rather than sitting and waiting for an ideal time to cross.
     
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:51 pm

    dwachdorf wrote:
    I had a follow-on question regarding airports (such as LAX and ATL) that have 4 parallel runways. Why do they typically use the outboard (from the terminal) for arrivals and the inboard for departures.

    At LAX, this arrangement improves noise abatement, along with any other advantages stated.
     
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:07 am

    HKG also operates in segregated mode most of the day.
     
    goldorak
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:20 am

    CDG as well
     
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    aerorobnz
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:18 am

    IST is just congested and traffic direction constraints for taxiing, ie: too many planes for gates so it always looks so busy (and significant delays for departures like mine to ATL which used the reverse flow for departures), For example, I was there for spotting last week and got around 280 mvts 9-5, and in ATL straight after it where I easily doubled without even clicking everything in the middle of the day because it was too hot and uncovered. I was at LHR earlier in the year and got around 320 mvts during the same 9-5 hours.
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:25 pm

    In HKG's case, it have been studied that if the operation were not segregrated in the way it currently is, it could handle a bit more aircrafts per hour, but the terrain next to the airport limited paths can be taken by incoming and outgoing aircraft, and with separation rule that would thus nullify the gain of using alternative approach/takeoff pattern, that is not enforced
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    tommy1808
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:48 pm

    FoxtrotSierra wrote:
    13. FRA


    Fra is also pretty segregated. Not just do they have both a dedicated departure and a dedicated arrival runway, they usually also use the other two that way. Unless that has recently changed.

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    gsg013
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:06 pm

    Can Someone Explain the Landing and takeoff patterns at EWR and JFK?

    From my experience JFK seems to use 3 runways at a time usually 2 parallel one for landing one for takeoffs. The third perpendicular is also used for landings.

    EWR seems to use both parallel runways for landing and takeoffs on the same runways at the same time? Does that make sense? I know they also have the shorter third runway at EWR but generally that one is used mostly for GA aircraft and landings at certain times.
     
    GolfBravoRomeo
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:25 pm

    JFK's most efficient configuration is VOR approaches to 13L and 22L, and departures off of 13R. Worst case is ILS 13L departing 13R.
     
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    aemoreira1981
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    Re: Is IST the world's busiest airport to use separate runways for arrivals and departures?

    Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:53 pm

    EWR is also usually segregated, with the east runway for landings only and the west for takeoffs (occasionally the west runway is a landing runway)...referring to 04/22. Right now, JFK is in that pattern as well when the 13s are used.

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