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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:50 am

767333ER wrote:
The real underlying lesson here is that everyone getting government help, if you want to enter the market, you need it too.


Yup, and if anyone knows that, it's Boeing, which makes it all the more shameful and hypocritical.
 
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:52 am

CX747 wrote:
Let the company either make it on their own or fail.


Stop drinking the Kool Aid and read this.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... story.html

Boeing got the largest tax break ever given to a corporation by any state- $8.7 Billion, and Boeing cut jobs.

I'd say its more than fair if the Canadian Gov. gives subsidies to grow BBD's workforce and secure orders for the program instead of cutting jobs.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:00 am

Oh, the ignorance of equating local government business incentives with national government-sponsored bailouts and international trade dumping violations.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:02 am

767333ER wrote:

What reality are you commenting from where Boeing is a saint of a company that doesn’t receive government help or is it because it suits your ignorance best to ignore the fact that Boeing is as well subsidized.


Don't be too hard on the poor souls that graduated from Trump University: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_University

Trump University was also the subject of two class action lawsuits in federal court. The lawsuits centered around allegations that Trump University defrauded its students by using misleading marketing practices and engaging in aggressive sales tactics.


Something sound familiar? :scratchchin:
 
CX747
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:05 am

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see some progress made against illegal subsidies. I'm sure Boeing calculated the long term risk and went forward. You can't allow another company to get it's place at the table with government backing like Airbus.

Overall, Air Canada and Westjet are private entities. The government shouldn't be involved with what they order. Same goes for British Airways. All three carriers should continue to purchase Boeing because they are free of government intervention correct????????????

It's a new day and maybe, just maybe commercial aviation can take a step back towards being commercial not government sponsored.


Man, I hope you are being sarcastic. Boeing has received tax breaks and subsidies that are worth more than the value of DL's entire CSeries order, and cries foul when the Canadian gov. provides support just to get the program running. Boeing would not exist without subsidies and to claim otherwise is pure ignorance and utter bullshit.


Nice to meet you too.

You clearly show having no issue with the Canadian government bailing out Bombardier and buying them a place at the table. That is a fact and the reason behind the tariff. Play fair, no tariff.

As for Boeing, they compete against Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, L3, Airbus, Embraer and Bombardier without illegal government subsidies. Anyone stating other wise is wishfully thinking. Boeing just lost the B-52 replacement campaign and was dealt another defeat ALONG with Bombardier when L3 was awarded sole source on an USAF program and went with Gulfstream. They are going toe to toe with Lockheed for the USAF T-38 replacement with a European partner with no promise of winning. No free handouts or support by the USG and the State support isn't illegal.

Earn your way, don't buy your way.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:17 am

767333ER wrote:
CX747 wrote:
Glad to see some progress made against illegal subsidies. I'm sure Boeing calculated the long term risk and went forward. You can't allow another company to get it's place at the table with government backing like Airbus.

Overall, Air Canada and Westjet are private entities. The government shouldn't be involved with what they order. Same goes for British Airways. All three carriers should continue to purchase Boeing because they are free of government intervention correct????????????

It's a new day and maybe, just maybe commercial aviation can take a step back towards being commercial not government sponsored.

What reality are you commenting from where Boeing is a saint of a company that doesn’t receive government help or is it because it suits your ignorance best to ignore the fact that Boeing is as well subsidized. You state it cannot be allowed to have planes from manufactures such as Airbus or Bombardier to be allowed to get a place at the table which in this case is being done through government intervention that you support. The intent of the tariff is attempt to block orders of Bombardier products in the US. Then you say AC, WS, and BA should be free to order Boeing aircraft without government intervention. You have successfully contradicted yourself and demonstrated a possible bias towards Boeing.

The real underlying lesson here is that everyone getting government help, if you want to enter the market, you need it too.


I guess my comments went over your head.

The carriers mentioned should be free to choose a product that best suits their needs. That product should be produced in a marketplace that has equal competition. At this time, all three of the carriers without government intervention have chosen a ton of Boeing products fair and square.

The Canadian government is unfairly backing their own guys. The US government is making the playing field fair in the US market. They don't say you have to order Boeing. In fact, Delta could order more Airbus or Embraers. The move just stops Canada from unfairly entering a competition in the US market.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
CX747
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:21 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Oh, the ignorance of equating local government business incentives with national government-sponsored bailouts and international trade dumping violations.


Well said sir.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
kaneporta1
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:28 am

CX747 wrote:
The carriers mentioned should be free to choose a product that best suits their needs. That product should be produced in a marketplace that has equal competition. At this time, all three of the carriers without government intervention have chosen a ton of Boeing products fair and square.

The Canadian government is unfairly backing their own guys. The US government is making the playing field fair in the US market. They don't say you have to order Boeing. In fact, Delta could order more Airbus or Embraers. The move just stops Canada from unfairly entering a competition in the US market.


It seems like Delta isn't free to choose the product that suits their needs...

Also, you keep throwing the fair/unfair argument without a shred of evidence on what Delta paid for the CS100, on what it costs to build a CS100 and on why it's not OK for the government to invest in a company if the government thinks it will get a good ROI.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
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KGRB
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:30 am

trex8 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
surfdog75 wrote:
Can't imagine Delta ordering a Boeing product in the near future after this.


Like they were before? Their relationship has been negative for years. Boeing had little to lose.

It amazes me that people still think that Delta and Boeing have a amicable relationship when every piece of evidence points against that.


130 739Er orders over last few years is not chicken feed

That order was from 2011. Six years is a long time in the airline industry. More recent orders have pointed to Delta moving toward an Airbus/Bombardier fleet.
First flight: NW DC-10 MKE-MSP December 1996
Most recent flight: DL/9E CRJ-900 LGA-MSN January 2020
 
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:34 am

Trudeau weighs in: "We're going to continue to defend Canadian aerospace against protectionist and warrantless measures by Boeing."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfoSta5pkTE
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:43 am

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
Trudeau weighs in: "We're going to continue to defend Canadian aerospace against protectionist and warrantless measures by Boeing."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfoSta5pkTE


That's an old video, and I think we've heard the Canadian PM repeat those same words hundreds of times already in the past year or so.
 
airnorth
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:46 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Oh, the ignorance of equating local government business incentives with national government-sponsored bailouts and international trade dumping violations.

Oh the ignorance.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:46 am

CX747 wrote:
The US government is making the playing field fair in the US market... The move just stops Canada from unfairly entering a competition in the US market.
Explain to me how the very scenario you describe here is not government intervention limiting the choice of aircraft in a given market, the very thing you are claiming to stand against.

And prove to us that Boeing doesn’t receive subsidies and yes tax breaks are considered subsidies.

CX747 wrote:
I guess my comments went over your head.

The only thing that is going over my head is your logic here, or lack thereof...
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Beatyair
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:51 am

Boeing makes plenty of money from the government selling the planes (military and commercial)for them. Look at the air tanker deal - Boeing won, then Airbus, what they are not American! - Airbus can't win, stop the compitition and let's just give it to Boeing anyways. Sorry, Boeing gets lots of money from the government.
delta just has to change there first order to 100 jet instead of 125. Order more later.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:55 am

MAGA decision.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:07 am

Boeing has marked this joyous occasion by shortly after announcing a joint venture with COMAC in China: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-boein ... SKCN1C13DA


Construction of the factory in the eastern city of Zhoushan began in May. It would install interiors and paint liveries.

Boeing had not previously disclosed how much it would invest in its first overseas completion and delivery center outside the United States. It aims to deliver 100 planes a year.



American jobs will be moving to China via Boeing.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:10 am

This is going to bite boeing in the @$$ BIG TIME. It's now Canada's turn: here's to the 220% tarriff on all 737s, 777s and 787s bought by WestJet, Air Canada and Air Transat.

Bombardier still has the rest of the world. Keep up good job, my fellow Canadians, don't give in to the idiots south of your border - Boeing included.
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:18 am

The truth:

Image
Image
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
rubiohiguey
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:43 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
This is going to bite boeing in the @$$ BIG TIME. It's now Canada's turn: here's to the 220% tarriff on all 737s, 777s and 787s bought by WestJet, Air Canada and Air Transat.

Bombardier still has the rest of the world. Keep up good job, my fellow Canadians, don't give in to the idiots south of your border - Boeing included.


Agreed
 
multimark
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:05 am

MSPNWA wrote:
FoxtrotSierra wrote:
It's not that. Everyone knows Boeing resents Delta, that's an open secret. Delta was never going to order Boeing anyway; the real implications of this are that airlines that would've ordered Boeing will now order from Airbus and Bombardier. Specifically, it will be interesting to watch what airlines that order Boeing do in in the future, if they order away. I think Westjet is one example, as it will be under huge pressure to cancel orders for the 737MAX and convert them to Airbus and the CSeries, because it would look extremely bad on Westjet's part to support Boeing after this.


You seriously think other airlines will spite themselves? The Canadian market is a fraction of the size of the USA market. Canada can put up a fight if they want, but they'll ultimately be hurt by it.

Put it this way. If you're Boeing and had to choose which market to sell in, which do you select--the U.S. or Canada? Which market is more important to protect? It's no wonder they're wiling to face the consequences when there's much more reward.


Like much of the world, this will be yet one more wedge that drives Canada toward China and away from the decaying American Empire. Canada is pursuing a free trade agreement with China as the USA seeks to unravel free trade. There is more money to be made trading with the powers of the future than those of the past.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:36 am

multimark wrote:
Like much of the world, this will be yet one more wedge that drives Canada toward China and away from the decaying American Empire. Canada is pursuing a free trade agreement with China as the USA seeks to unravel free trade. There is more money to be made trading with the powers of the future than those of the past.


Let me know when China can supply the Canadian carriers' current aircraft needs. And I'm sure Bombardier would love to "fairly" compete against China when that happens.

The irony in all this is that Bombardier and the Canadian government is willing to take losses selling an advanced airplane to DL, an airline that competes against AC and WS in some markets. Makes you wonder what AC and WS really think about all this, particularly when their orderbooks are all Boeing except for the questioned AC CSeries order, meaning they've largely shunned the hometown team as well.

It's not surprising, but no less disappointing to me that so many people believe that illegal dumping is just fine and shouldn't be defending against--like a dog getting beat should just suck it up and accept the unjust beatings. Good grief, what has this world come to.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:12 am

Potential Bombardier closure in Northern Ireland is the top story on BBC News this morning, as a result of the US decision.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-41397181
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:13 am

MSPNWA wrote:
I agree 100%. As much as I'm intrigued with the CSeries itself, that type of international business cannot be tolerated. 219%? I don't know about that, but the decision was correctly in Boeing's fabir.


“We are American and all subsidies are bad and anti-competitive. Except the ones given to the US industry, of course.”
I strongly suggest a 219% import tariff for any industrial US export to Canada. And the EU following. Sorry guys, you short first. Make America isolated again.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:20 am

CX747 wrote:
The company earned it's place at the international table and is privately held.


I strongly suggest you go read up on the history of Boeing rather than coming across as an archetypal redneck.

Q: Who funded the 707?
A: The USAF with the KC-135.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re. the duties imposed.

220% on an order which is supposedly ~$28m USD per airframe, that'd mean a manufacturing cost of ~$90m USD. Ridiculous. I've an idea of how much some of the first-of-line most complex structures were being built for and if the aircraft followed trends, total cost of the first FTV wouldn't have been that!

Furthermore, some elementary sums on the onerous provision and the number of aircraft sold in that quarter show the fallacy of this.

BBD sold 45 CS300 to AC and 75 to DL (we'll conservatively leave aside the Air Baltic CS3 for now, they are launch so undoubtedly sold below build cost).

If we assume that the onerous provision of $500m USD covers the AC and DL orders, and conservatively assume that a CS3 costs the same to make as a CS1, then, in order to make the provision add up, AC would have had to pay around 4x the price of DL (~$120m USD per frame, or just the $40m above list price). Anyone think that happened?


Its a kangaroo court verdict to the point it is outright hostile toward a neighbour they (supposedly) have friendly relationships with - I'd consider it worryingly hostile and potentially very destabilising toward trade outside just the aerospace industry due to eroding of trust in the system.

I suppose when it'd be appealed to NAFTA, it would be quashed, but there is plenty of water to pass under the bridge before we get to that point.
 
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767333ER
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:22 am

MSPNWA wrote:
questioned AC CSeries order, meaning they've largely shunned the hometown team as well.

What’s in question there. 45 form orders for the CS300 with 30 options and conversion rights to the CS100. Air Canada hasn’t shunned BBD or the CSeries, in fact they have been more vocal about being excited to take delivery of it than they have with the 737.

MSPNWA wrote:
It’s not surprising, but no less disappointing to me that so many people believe that illegal dumping is just fine and shouldn't be defending against--like a dog getting beat should just suck it up and accept the unjust beatings. Good grief, what has this world come to.

No dog is getting beaten here if Boeing doesn’t build a product that realistically competes. Airbus has dumped, Boeing has dumped, Embraer has dumped, and now Bombardier has too. This goes to show it is a flawed law that needs to be reworked. The only things getting hurt here now are Boeing’s image, the US’s already degrading image, potentially Bombardier’s future in the US, and potentially Delta’s wallet. As Delta stated, Boeing’s their closes match was discontinued 10 years ago and since they have chosen to stay out of a market they claimed a few years ago they no longer wanted to be a part of as they felt there wasn’t significant demand and basically wished Bombardier good luck. Everyone involved would have probably been better off if Boeing didn’t play politics and focused on actually competing.
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RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:24 am

I feel sorry for Bombardier.

Its pretty standard practice for any new manufacturer to offer extreme discounts to break into a new market. Once you build up a customer base and a good reputation then you can increase prices and make a profit.

I'm Australian and our government would not do something like this to a New Zealand conpany. Your bloody neighbours and half the supply lines are shared between the countries.

This is going to be devastating to Bombardier. This will hang over them like a bad smell until the final ruling in 2018.
 
chiawei
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:29 am

767333ER wrote:
CX747 wrote:
The US government is making the playing field fair in the US market... The move just stops Canada from unfairly entering a competition in the US market.
Explain to me how the very scenario you describe here is not government intervention limiting the choice of aircraft in a given market, the very thing you are claiming to stand against.

And prove to us that Boeing doesn’t receive subsidies and yes tax breaks are considered subsidies.

CX747 wrote:
I guess my comments went over your head.

The only thing that is going over my head is your logic here, or lack thereof...



Sorry you are wrong here.

Without Quebec and Trudeau $2.2 billion bailout, bombardier won't be here today. CS was a mess and by very definition of free market. It would and should have folded. Period.

Every single business gets tax breaks, but that is not the same as government actually provided direct cash infusion that is more than company is worth.

Please provide proof that Us government provided Boeing subsidies that is more than net worth of the company. In addition, show me where Boeing gets direct cash infusion from government.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:30 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Oh, the ignorance of equating local government business incentives with national government-sponsored bailouts and international trade dumping violations.


The Quebec government is a local government and invested in companies with local factories in order to help them increase exports from the region and bring wealth in from elsewhere.

The central government provided loans.


But you've displayed a significant level of ignorance in other posts, so I won't be expecting you to acknowledge your errors any time soon.
 
chiawei
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 9:07 am

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:31 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I feel sorry for Bombardier.

Its pretty standard practice for any new manufacturer to offer extreme discounts to break into a new market. Once you build up a customer base and a good reputation then you can increase prices and make a profit.

I'm Australian and our government would not do something like this to a New Zealand conpany. Your bloody neighbours and half the supply lines are shared between the countries.

This is going to be devastating to Bombardier. This will hang over them like a bad smell until the final ruling in 2018.


Wrong.

Canadian government did not play fair. They provided $2.2 billion cash infusion to a company that was insolvent.

In a free market, bombardier would have already been dead.
 
blrsea
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:32 am

Can DL get the CS-100s through a lessor base outside of US? If some company based in say Europe purchases the jets and leases it to DL, would that be legal or would it cause duties to be levied on lease amounts too?
 
chiawei
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:34 am

767333ER wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
questioned AC CSeries order, meaning they've largely shunned the hometown team as well.

What’s in question there. 45 form orders for the CS300 with 30 options and conversion rights to the CS100. Air Canada hasn’t shunned BBD or the CSeries, in fact they have been more vocal about being excited to take delivery of it than they have with the 737.

MSPNWA wrote:
It’s not surprising, but no less disappointing to me that so many people believe that illegal dumping is just fine and shouldn't be defending against--like a dog getting beat should just suck it up and accept the unjust beatings. Good grief, what has this world come to.

No dog is getting beaten here if Boeing doesn’t build a product that realistically competes. Airbus has dumped, Boeing has dumped, Embraer has dumped, and now Bombardier has too. This goes to show it is a flawed law that needs to be reworked. The only things getting hurt here now are Boeing’s image, the US’s already degrading image, potentially Bombardier’s future in the US, and potentially Delta’s wallet. As Delta stated, Boeing’s their closes match was discontinued 10 years ago and since they have chosen to stay out of a market they claimed a few years ago they no longer wanted to be a part of as they felt there wasn’t significant demand and basically wished Bombardier good luck. Everyone involved would have probably been better off if Boeing didn’t play politics and focused on actually competing.



Your comment simply doesn't matter.

The fact remains-

1. Bombardier would have folded without direct government intervention. Canadian government bail d out bombardier with $2.2 billion infusion. This is on top of old lao s that bombardier still hasn't paid back to Canadian tax payer.

2. In free market, bombardier would have folded.

You can argue that US government bailed out the auto industry, but in reality GM and Chrysler did pay back the loan. While bombardier has a history of unpaid government loan (cash injection)

It's simple as that.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:34 am

There are other legal ways to avoid the import tariff:

Although Bombardier cannot legally skirt the measure by agreeing to pay any duty directly on Delta’s behalf, trade lawyers say it could technically import the jets itself through a local subsidiary in a way that would be neutral for Delta.


Of course, this dispute between Boeing and Bombardier can continue for years:

People close to the case said it could lead to months if not years of contractual and legal wrangling, with Bombardier likely to appeal any negative finding and Canada ready to take the case to the World Trade Organisation in the absence of a settlement.


Ref https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boei ... SKCN1C135R
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
chiawei
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:36 am

Amiga500 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Oh, the ignorance of equating local government business incentives with national government-sponsored bailouts and international trade dumping violations.


The Quebec government is a local government and invested in companies with local factories in order to help them increase exports from the region and bring wealth in from elsewhere.

The central government provided loans.


But you've displayed a significant level of ignorance in other posts, so I won't be expecting you to acknowledge your errors any time soon.



Care to go google how many investment or loans that bombardier has received from Canadian government through out its history? You can also google how much of it bomabardier has paid back.
 
chiawei
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:41 am

Bombardier has over $5 billion in direct handout from Canadian government since 2000 and has paid $0 back.

It's actually costing every single Canadian tax payer $500,000.

Go google it. This is public information.

Stop playing it off like local government is investing in local company. Because this has been happening for over 20 years and north of $5 billion.

Boeing and US has every right to levie the tariff.
 
chiawei
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:43 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
This is going to bite boeing in the @$$ BIG TIME. It's now Canada's turn: here's to the 220% tarriff on all 737s, 777s and 787s bought by WestJet, Air Canada and Air Transat.

Bombardier still has the rest of the world. Keep up good job, my fellow Canadians, don't give in to the idiots south of your border - Boeing included.


On what ground

Did Boeing get $5 billion since 2000 from us government free of charge with no collateral like bombardier has from Canadian government?

I don't think so.
Last edited by chiawei on Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:44 am

chiawei wrote:
Please provide proof that Us government provided Boeing subsidies that is more than net worth of the company. In addition, show me where Boeing gets direct cash infusion from government.


Both of your qualifiers are irrelevant to the matter.

Subsidies are subsidies no matter how big or what form they take. Be it zero interest loans, tax breaks, grants etc.

Indeed, acquiring shares (as Quebec have done) would by and by large be considered an investment rather than subsidy!
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:44 am

chiawei wrote:
In a free market, bombardier would have already been dead.


As Boeing would be without the regional subsidies, without the rigged tanker deal, without the “open bar” for expenses related to military projects to leverage the balance, withouth the amazing $200+ million per launch overcost allowed for ULA in military projects, without the political pressure to Asian countries to buy WB, may I follow?

Just a reminder to all hypocrites posting: this is not a tariff because of dumping or subsidies. This is a fine to prevent a company selling a product that falls in a segment where Boeing WAS interested years ago, it is not now, but just in case Boeing becomes interested in the future. It is as insane as it sounds....

Boeing is slowly becoming the shame of the industry.
 
chiawei
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:46 am

Amiga500 wrote:
chiawei wrote:
Please provide proof that Us government provided Boeing subsidies that is more than net worth of the company. In addition, show me where Boeing gets direct cash infusion from government.


Both of your qualifiers are irrelevant to the matter.

Subsidies are subsidies no matter how big or what form they take. Be it zero interest loans, tax breaks, grants etc.

Indeed, acquiring shares (as Quebec have done) would by and by large be considered an investment rather than subsidy!


The proof is on you to show Boeing got subsidies from us government. You are the one who is claiming that. Where is your proof?

Direct cash infusion is what Canadian government has been giving to bombardier since 2000. $5 billion, why don't you go google it yourself.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:47 am

chiawei wrote:
Bombardier has over $5 billion in direct handout from Canadian government since 2000 and has paid $0 back.


hahahahaha

chump change.

Boeing are well over double that. In fact, they got significantly more than that from one state!
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:48 am

chiawei wrote:
The proof is on you to show Boeing got subsidies from us government. You are the one who is claiming that. Where is your proof?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/1 ... 81100.html

No doubt you will erroneously try to claim that a tax break is not a subsidy when in fact, it amounts to exactly the same thing.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:58 am

blrsea wrote:
Can DL get the CS-100s through a lessor base outside of US? If some company based in say Europe purchases the jets and leases it to DL, would that be legal or would it cause duties to be levied on lease amounts too?


As noted above, there are other legal ways to avoid import duties.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
chrisp390
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:59 am

Where are the investigations into COMAC who are getting BILLIONS from the Chinese government to develop a DIRECT competitor to the Boeing 737?
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:02 am

Boeing has received much more than $5 billion in tax breaks in the same period of time.

However Boeing is a much larger company. So Boeings tax breaks are a very small in proportion to revenue where as Bombardiers cash injections are a massive percentage of its revenue.

Don't forget Canada now owns half of Bombardier. Boeing's tax breaks did not include purchasing equity. So its not an apple to apple comparison.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:07 am

767333ER wrote:
What’s in question there. 45 form orders for the CS300 with 30 options and conversion rights to the CS100. Air Canada hasn’t shunned BBD or the CSeries, in fact they have been more vocal about being excited to take delivery of it than they have with the 737.


I would hope you're not that uninformed of why the AC order was and still is so questionable. The fact that you believe I'm talking about the order status implies you might be.

767333ER wrote:
No dog is getting beaten here if Boeing doesn’t build a product that realistically competes. Airbus has dumped, Boeing has dumped, Embraer has dumped, and now Bombardier has too. This goes to show it is a flawed law that needs to be reworked. The only things getting hurt here now are Boeing’s image, the US’s already degrading image, potentially Bombardier’s future in the US, and potentially Delta’s wallet. As Delta stated, Boeing’s their closes match was discontinued 10 years ago and since they have chosen to stay out of a market they claimed a few years ago they no longer wanted to be a part of as they felt there wasn’t significant demand and basically wished Bombardier good luck. Everyone involved would have probably been better off if Boeing didn’t play politics and focused on actually competing.


I see you're doubling down on believing that U.S. and international trade laws are not to be enforced. All I see are invalid excuses that are easily squashed. The bottom line is that Bombardier crossed the line of the law. That's all that matters. And think about Embraer for a moment. Is this a fair trade practice for them?
 
chiawei
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:07 am

chrisp390 wrote:
Where are the investigations into COMAC who are getting BILLIONS from the Chinese government to develop a DIRECT competitor to the Boeing 737?


The problem is comac does not have a us airlines buying it.

It would be interesting if an us airline buys it.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:07 am

chrisp390 wrote:
Where are the investigations into COMAC who are getting BILLIONS from the Chinese government to develop a DIRECT competitor to the Boeing 737?


China is untouchable and can do whatever it wants. Good luck chasing Comac. Besides, C919 doesn't have to sell in the U.S.A. as China has a large local market.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
chiawei
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:08 am

Amiga500 wrote:
chiawei wrote:
The proof is on you to show Boeing got subsidies from us government. You are the one who is claiming that. Where is your proof?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/1 ... 81100.html

No doubt you will erroneously try to claim that a tax break is not a subsidy when in fact, it amounts to exactly the same thing.


Again- scale is different. Tax break is not direct cash infusion.

PERIOD.
 
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Jayafe
Posts: 1223
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:19 am

chiawei wrote:
Again- scale is different. Tax break is not direct cash infusion.

PERIOD.


No, it is a deferred cash infusion. Same dog, different collar. Waiting for Boeing chasing now COMAC and Airbus, as the always cry about subsidies without looking its belly. Where is the brave, bulliers?
 
D L X
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:21 am

Amiga500 wrote:
Its a kangaroo court verdict.


No it’s not. This is the United States International Trade Commission, a very important court that takes its job extremely seriously.

And there are no verdicts there because there is no jury. It has an administrative law judge who presided over the case.

Amiga500 wrote:
I suppose when it'd be appealed to NAFTA, it would be quashed, but there is plenty of water to pass under the bridge before we get to that point.


Appealed to NAFTA?! What are you talking about?

It will be appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, where it will be heard by a three judge panel.

Now, this being the ITC, I believe the president (as in Donald Trump) gets 90 Days to review the tariff during which time he may decide to cancel it. While the ITC must select a tariff based purely on law, presidential action is purely politics. So if you are bothered by this judgment, your audience lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:30 am

northstardc4m wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:

My mind hurts in this thread...

2-3 times as expensive to produce would be counter to the entire practice of intelligent manufacturing and supply stream.

Even IF BBD couldn't get great terms from suppliers (and yes they can, there are many MANY groups competing for subcontracts of almost any type), the part themselves will be lighter and less expensive than the equivalent part from a 73MAX-7 or 319NEO.

You might be able to find some evidence that it should costs even as a high end 20% more overall, but 200-300% is so stratospheric it would not be selling at all.

It is by almost every estimation quite the reverse, the CSeries costs on the order of 25-35% LESS to build than the 737MAX-7.


Sorry but you are wrong. I could go on and on an don in regards to R&D, cost of composites, tests, etc. etc. etc.
But it is slightly simpler than that:

1) If the fine of US$ 32m/plane is really true it shows clearly that Boeing has managed to expose a case which BBD could not defend. As said before, BBD had clear opportunity to state their case and show their numbers so either they were no convincing or inexistent;
2) A Fact that I have stated on and on and on on other posts: if the C-Series is so good and so competitive pricewise, why does it not sell more????? Nobody is buying it and I am not speaking about US Customers only. We've had already several Air Shows in which BBD comes always empty handed. Only the fact that the only major order that came along (DL's 75 frames) is subject of investigation for price dumping, tells you a lot.

I gather than the C-Series is a good plane but looks more like a Concorde one than a B737/A320 one. Pretty, efficient but very expensive. If BBD had several significant orders around the globe for a price similar to the Delta's one, then Boeing would not even be able to put into court. And Brazil would not have a new WTO Case going on either.



1) Boeing doesn't have a big burden of proof in this.

2) There are over 350 sold CSeries on the books plus over 200 options... I don't know how you could say it's not selling. And quite frankly none of Boeing or Airbus or EMBRAER have sold much in the same category EITHER. The MAX7 has sold abysmally poorly with 50, the A319NEO about the same and the E2 190 and 195 combined come in at just over 130... so seems to be selling the best of all EVEN discounting the 75 for Delta?


I was going to answer but "EMBSPBR" has beaten me to it with quite solid facts. We could delve on the so called 350 C-Series sold so far but his answer should be enough for you.
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