StudiodeKadent
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:30 am

I am not a lawyer so I can't really get into an argument over the technicalities of trade law. However, I will say the following:

1. Both Boeing and Bombardier benefit from their respective governments. Bombardier through relatively direct subsidies/stock ownership, and Boeing via the Ex-Im bank.
2. The CSeries doesn't directly compete with any of Boeing's aircraft apart from the 737-7. Even if the CS300 gets stretched (to create a CS500 with about 150 pax in normal configuration) it would compete with the A320neo but not the 737-8.
3. People who bitch about government ownership and government subsidies never take into account the fact Singapore Airlines is IIRC mostly state owned. Its certainly majorly state owned.
4. There has never been a laissez-faire free market in aerospace. Its always had government involvement. This doesn't mean free market economics is wrong. It merely means the sector has never been a free market.

Honestly I think Boeing should tolerate the Cseries since Airbus has more to lose than Boeing (the 737-8 is a 175 person jet, the A320 a 150 person jet, in single class configs). The Cseries competes with A318s, A319s. And a further stretch would compete with A320s but not exactly with 737-8s.

But I'm sad for this ruling. The Cseries is a very sexy jet and I wish it got more sales-love than it currently has received.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:39 am

D L X wrote:
No it’s not. This is the United States International Trade Commission, a very important court that takes its job extremely seriously.

And there are no verdicts there because there is no jury. It has an administrative law judge who presided over the case.


Oh yeah, I can feel the fairness, logic and common sense. Can't you?

D L X wrote:
Now, this being the ITC, I believe the president (as in Donald Trump) gets 90 Days to review the tariff during which time he may decide to cancel it. While the ITC must select a tariff based purely on law, presidential action is purely politics. So if you are bothered by this judgment, your audience lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500.


Trump cancelling a protectionist fine sounds quite unlikely. He could even make it worse. Actually, that would be a good opportunity to ask about the AF1 contract. As this is sold as "free trade/free market" world, wondering what he has to say about international competition for the AF1 contract, after the tanker shame. Maybe it is finally recognised that such rules only apply to the US competing others, not to others competing the US companies.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:49 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
This is going to bite boeing in the @$$ BIG TIME. It's now Canada's turn: here's to the 220% tarriff on all 737s, 777s and 787s bought by WestJet, Air Canada and Air Transat.

Bombardier still has the rest of the world. Keep up good job, my fellow Canadians, don't give in to the idiots south of your border - Boeing included.


Errr... sorry... but nope!
They will not tax Boeing's aircraft because: 1) They will starve the market for new frames and leave it at Airbus' mercy and 2) There's NO Case given Boeing can back their incentives with a healthy backlog or FIRM orders for their aircraft - a thing that BBD cannot show.

Overall, formula is simple: if you show significant orders for your project, incentives become easily (although only legally) investments (in exchange for dividends and job generation, for example). No orders means illegal incentives for the odd order there.

BBD does NOT have the rest of the world unfortunately since despite the cash injected by the Canadian Government and the UK, the aircraft is NOT selling. Once (IF) they start to acquire significant orders from elsewhere, they may even be able to overturn the decision on the back that the project is feasible.

Until then...
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:57 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
The truth:

Image
Image


Typical from BBD but really worthless piece of statement.

Sell Aircrafts elsewhere and acquire significant orders, then come back and show how viable the project for this efficient aircraft is. Then you can come backf for further and worthy talks...
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:09 am

D L X wrote:
Appealed to NAFTA?! What are you talking about?


I suggest you look through the routes this can take. Yes, initial appeal is within the US, but eventually the road leads up to NAFTA or WTO*.

*I believe the process can be an "either" at this point, but could be wrong - it could be NAFTA then WTO as the final port of call.
Last edited by Amiga500 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:10 am

Jomar777 wrote:

Sell Aircrafts elsewhere and acquire significant orders, then come back and show how viable the project for this efficient aircraft is. Then you can come backf for further and worthy talks...


Translating your statement: "Ask Boeing for permission to sell planes". Shame....................
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:12 am

D L X wrote:
No it’s not. This is the United States International Trade Commission, a very important court that takes its job extremely seriously.


Then they have attained a level of stupidity I didn't know existed.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:14 am

Trudeau has stated the purchase of Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet is now in jeopardy. Sometimes winning isn't a great thing/.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:15 am

rikkus67 wrote:
So, please enlighten me on how an aircraft that is BELOW the size of anything Boeing now offers, is hurting Boeing in any way? Boeing has sold over 10,000 737's in its production run. Bombardier has sold less than 400 CSeries.


CSeries itself doesn't hurt Boeing. I think 1) Boeing wants same level playing field and just doesn't like a small player that dumps its aircraft into the market, and 2) Boeing doesn't want to make the same mistake as they did let Airbus entering the market.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:16 am

KarelXWB wrote:
I think 1) Boeing wants same level playing field


So Boeing would like BBD to get about another 10 billion or so in aid to reach their level?
 
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arvo
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:21 am

chiawei wrote:
767333ER wrote:
CX747 wrote:
The US government is making the playing field fair in the US market... The move just stops Canada from unfairly entering a competition in the US market.
Explain to me how the very scenario you describe here is not government intervention limiting the choice of aircraft in a given market, the very thing you are claiming to stand against.

And prove to us that Boeing doesn’t receive subsidies and yes tax breaks are considered subsidies.

CX747 wrote:
I guess my comments went over your head.

The only thing that is going over my head is your logic here, or lack thereof...



Sorry you are wrong here.

Without Quebec and Trudeau $2.2 billion bailout, bombardier won't be here today. CS was a mess and by very definition of free market. It would and should have folded. Period.

Every single business gets tax breaks, but that is not the same as government actually provided direct cash infusion that is more than company is worth.

Please provide proof that Us government provided Boeing subsidies that is more than net worth of the company. In addition, show me where Boeing gets direct cash infusion from government.


Well one can always look at how much the US government gave to the automakers and banks back in 2008/09 and one could safely assume that they would do the same to the aerospace industry in the us. with out the subsidies given to those industries GM and Chrysler and many more banks would cease to exist today as well.
 
lee757
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:26 am

This is the same boeing thats also receiving funding for its new Sheffield factory right? :roll:
 
OO-VEG
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:35 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
Honestly I think Boeing should tolerate the Cseries since Airbus has more to lose than Boeing (the 737-8 is a 175 person jet, the A320 a 150 person jet, in single class configs). The Cseries competes with A318s, A319s. And a further stretch would compete with A320s but not exactly with 737-8s.


The 737-800 and A320 are very close in size. The seat limits also depend on chair size. The maximum amount of Pax in the A320 (classic) is 190, for the B737-800 it's 189.

It's a pitty if such tax barrier would terminate the programme for Bombardier. I think Boeing is afraid of the impact the CS500 may have on their own sales and is trying everything it can to avoid that plane from comming to fruition.
 
micstatic
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:45 am

since this is an enthusiast site after all, it's sad that we are forgetting one central point. For years we as passengers have been jammed on the 737 and slightly more comfortable A320. The C-Series represented a future in passenger comfort not currently enjoyed. Also opening up more coast-to-coast opportunities not feasible with boeing/airbus narrow bodies. As far as Boeing commercial airplanes the future is uninteresting for me. Innovation seems stale over there.
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
gfly
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:46 am

Aside from the numbers game, a lot of emotions in this topic based on some poorly defined matrix of thought, like down with subsidies! and then all the stars seem to line up in favor of the big guy. Regardless, I can't help but think Boeing's posture is motivated by fear. Read closely the wording of their press release, as if there is only one truth in the story line. Unless Boeing wants to acquire the C-series for itself, in the long run its posture will work like untreated wastewater. Let's remember there are a lot of co-dependent relationships in our industry, and the way problems are approached define the quality of relationships and level of trust. Without this our industry would not really exist. Many people in the world outside the matrix of all things made in Seattle perceive this dispute much differently than Boeing's conviction of righteousness. But this is what fear does, it makes you think you are entitled, and there is only one version of the truth.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:47 am

D L X wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Its a kangaroo court verdict.


No it’s not. This is the United States International Trade Commission, a very important court that takes its job extremely seriously.

And there are no verdicts there because there is no jury. It has an administrative law judge who presided over the case.


Yes this kangaroo commission takes the protection of Boeing interests very serious. As there is no product in the USA competing with the CS100 and even the CS300 does not reach the 737-7 in size, it is an unreasonable decision.

D L X wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
I suppose when it'd be appealed to NAFTA, it would be quashed, but there is plenty of water to pass under the bridge before we get to that point.


Appealed to NAFTA?! What are you talking about?

It will be appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, where it will be heard by a three judge panel.


You are talking about the USA internal appeals, any trade dispute between NAFTA countries can be appealed to the NAFTA panel.

This case is about as hypocritical as it gets. Boeing dumped the price for 737-700 to UA to keep the C series out, that is OK, because that is between USA companies.

If NAFTA does not offer a resolve, the next logical step for Canada would be to put customs on USA produced airplanes and I assume that will happen if the USA keeps up the C series decision.
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:50 am

Once again this proves how the US rig their market. It is only going to get worse.

Under the current US administration we are heading for trade wars which hurt everyone,
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:51 am

Amiga500 wrote:
chiawei wrote:
Please provide proof that Us government provided Boeing subsidies that is more than net worth of the company. In addition, show me where Boeing gets direct cash infusion from government.


Both of your qualifiers are irrelevant to the matter.

Subsidies are subsidies no matter how big or what form they take. Be it zero interest loans, tax breaks, grants etc.

Indeed, acquiring shares (as Quebec have done) would by and by large be considered an investment rather than subsidy!


You may be literally correct but not, let's say, commercially legally.

A subsidy which is granted to an entity on a loss making project and where that entity has not paid neither has no way to pay it back is simply an unfair trade advantage. The Quebec Government share acquisition on a entity like this would be simply questionable - if used to leverage this argument - on the grounds that an unfeasible investment with no chance of return was granted.

Now when a subsidy is granted on a project that yields profit, then you can classify that so called subsidy as investment since either it is repaid in cash or a economy injection through jobs and taxes. To my knowledge, one way or another Boeing is liable for taxes on their operations so, even if they do get away with it with other mechanisms (this would be another story...), you can always argue that the US Government is getting their money back.

BBD's investments in the UK and Canada so far amounts to a bottomless pit where no chance of recovery is due. It gets worse if they start selling planes on a absurd loss making deal where further losses on production are accumulated.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:55 am

Jomar777 wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
This is going to bite boeing in the @$$ BIG TIME. It's now Canada's turn: here's to the 220% tarriff on all 737s, 777s and 787s bought by WestJet, Air Canada and Air Transat.

Bombardier still has the rest of the world. Keep up good job, my fellow Canadians, don't give in to the idiots south of your border - Boeing included.


Errr... sorry... but nope!
They will not tax Boeing's aircraft because: 1) They will starve the market for new frames and leave it at Airbus' mercy and 2) There's NO Case given Boeing can back their incentives with a healthy backlog or FIRM orders for their aircraft - a thing that BBD cannot show.

Overall, formula is simple: if you show significant orders for your project, incentives become easily (although only legally) investments (in exchange for dividends and job generation, for example). No orders means illegal incentives for the odd order there.

BBD does NOT have the rest of the world unfortunately since despite the cash injected by the Canadian Government and the UK, the aircraft is NOT selling. Once (IF) they start to acquire significant orders from elsewhere, they may even be able to overturn the decision on the back that the project is feasible.

Until then...


Canada will not tax Boeing aircraft, they will put customs, or with other words duties on them, if they do not get this dispute resolved through NAFTA. Canadian airlines will cancel Boeing orders, quite a bit more worth than USA airlines Bombardier orders. Airbus will get a batch of narrow body and wide body orders, as they will not be so stupid to squeeze the Canadian airlines in this situation.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:55 am

Dalmd88 wrote:
Trudeau has stated the purchase of Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet is now in jeopardy. Sometimes winning isn't a great thing/.


Yep. He can always buy Sukhoi's aircraft They would be available (maybe... no wait!!! He may buy a fight when the SSJ100 starts to east into BBD worldwide interests...).

He might be able to get some Grippens also if SAAB can shift fast enough...
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:57 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
Trudeau has stated the purchase of Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet is now in jeopardy. Sometimes winning isn't a great thing/.


Yep. He can always buy Sukhoi's aircraft They would be available (maybe... no wait!!! He may buy a fight when the SSJ100 starts to east into BBD worldwide interests...).

He might be able to get some Grippens also if SAAB can shift fast enough...


http://www.skynews.com.au/news/politics ... -jets.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_ ... ghtning_II
 
ACATROYAL
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:58 am

Boeing is at it again, playing dirty just like they did with the tanker competition years ago. The Airbus MRTT 332 was the best plane and the US military wanted it but Boeing and their legion of paid off politicians changed the outcome in Boeing's favor. The C Series is the best choice for Delta and everyone knows that but Boeing instead of offering a suitable product to compete with is using its political muscle to turn the tables around in their favor... again! I hope the Prime Minister cancels the F-18 Super Hornet deal and all other Boeing related products. The outcome and Tariff applied is ridiculous!! I am really sick and tired of how Boeing is behaving lately. Since Boeing wants a level playing field than I hope the Canadian government applies a tariff on all Boeing aircraft that are sold to Canadian airlines. An eye for an eye....
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:21 am

Jomar777 wrote:

He might be able to get some Grippens also if SAAB can shift fast enough...


The Grippen or perhaps some Eurofighters/Typhoon would be the logical choice now. Perhaps Bombardier can build the Grippen in licence.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:29 am

ACATROYAL wrote:
The outcome and Tariff applied is ridiculous!!


Yes the outcome is ridiculously high, but in Boeing's defense "only" 79% was asked. It would be interesting to know where this 219% comes from.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:30 am

YYZLGA wrote:
I don't think we'd ever see them going after Airbus in this way.


What do you think the whole WTO idiocy was then?


The Europeans would make sure the Americans paid ten times over.


Not exactly - trying to point out the hypocrisy just ended in a multi-year ongoing and expensive stalemate. I can only guess that Boeing thought they could get an easier win over poor little Bombardier. Watch out Embraer, you're probably next.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:32 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Yes the outcome is ridiculously high, but in Boeing's defense "only" 79% was asked. It would be interesting to know where this 219% comes from.


First thought, maybe naive: 219-79 = 140. Too much of a round number to not be a fine coming from a perturbed mind.
 
sekant
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:39 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
chiawei wrote:
Please provide proof that Us government provided Boeing subsidies that is more than net worth of the company. In addition, show me where Boeing gets direct cash infusion from government.


Both of your qualifiers are irrelevant to the matter.

Subsidies are subsidies no matter how big or what form they take. Be it zero interest loans, tax breaks, grants etc.

Indeed, acquiring shares (as Quebec have done) would by and by large be considered an investment rather than subsidy!


You may be literally correct but not, let's say, commercially legally.

A subsidy which is granted to an entity on a loss making project and where that entity has not paid neither has no way to pay it back is simply an unfair trade advantage. The Quebec Government share acquisition on a entity like this would be simply questionable - if used to leverage this argument - on the grounds that an unfeasible investment with no chance of return was granted.

Now when a subsidy is granted on a project that yields profit, then you can classify that so called subsidy as investment since either it is repaid in cash or a economy injection through jobs and taxes. To my knowledge, one way or another Boeing is liable for taxes on their operations so, even if they do get away with it with other mechanisms (this would be another story...), you can always argue that the US Government is getting their money back.

BBD's investments in the UK and Canada so far amounts to a bottomless pit where no chance of recovery is due. It gets worse if they start selling planes on a absurd loss making deal where further losses on production are accumulated.


Your understanding or definition of acceptable subsidies is more than particular.

What you are saying is that predatory subsidies by state A that aims or has the effect of destroying an entire industry in state B is fine, provided that state A recoup its expenses.

This is not only contrary to all international rules related to subsidies, it is simply out there conceptually speaking. You are basically justifying the core objectionable element of any subsidy.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:41 am

Wow, never thought this would happen in reality. Sure everyone enjoys ongoing rhetoric but this is completely gone postal.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:46 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
leeham outlines the next options in case of a loss for BBD;

https://leehamnews.com/2017/09/18/ponti ... complaint/


I've been out of the country on business, and only got back last night...so I am sure there are going to be lots of questions and replies.

Leehamnews has it mostly correct, but also has it partially wrong, namely....

"An appeal of the DOC decision may be made to US Federal District Court in Washington (DC). But, somewhat exquisitely, this isn’t the only place."

This is incorrect. The route of appeal must go to the U.S. Court of International Trade in New York.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:47 am

rbavfan wrote:
What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.


Not dumping if it was a sale by a US company to a US customer.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:48 am

LAXintl wrote:
The tariffs will apply to all U.S. C-series sales.
Upon export of any aircraft to US clients, BBD will be required to pay cash deposits in amounts equal to preliminary subsidy tariff.


In Boeing victory, Commerce Dept. slaps massive tariff on rival small jets from Bombardier
http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bo ... er-boeing/

=



Incorrect, the import of record pays the cash deposit, not the exporter. The importer would be Boeing.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:03 am

LockheedBBD wrote:
queb wrote:
Calm down, it's an interim ruling pending final judgment from the USITC in February 2018


You're right..... the tariffs are only going up from here. The ITC still has to add-on Boeing's claimed "damages and injury" to the tariff. Given the ITC's stance, almost doubling Boeing's requested tariff %, they'll find a way to increase to 400%. :old:


Not correct. There is no damages to add on to.
 
afgeneral
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:07 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.


Not dumping if it was a sale by a US company to a US customer.


It may not be dumping according to US law but it is still dumping in an economic sense so the view in Canada or at NAFTA level may be different.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:13 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.


Not dumping if it was a sale by a US company to a US customer.


It's still dumping. You can defend Boeing, but that's the fact. Boeing sold United 737s at a dumping price.
Tarriffs are taxes. Taxation is theft. You are not entitled to anything.
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washingtonflyer
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:14 am

BlueSky1976 wrote:
This is going to bite boeing in the @$$ BIG TIME. It's now Canada's turn: here's to the 220% tarriff on all 737s, 777s and 787s bought by WestJet, Air Canada and Air Transat.

Bombardier still has the rest of the world. Keep up good job, my fellow Canadians, don't give in to the idiots south of your border - Boeing included.


This is just stupid. No Canadian producer manufactures an equivalent to the 787 or 777 so you can't have injury when no domestic industry exists to seek duties.
 
c933103
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:16 am

Jomar777 wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
The truth:

Image
Image


Typical from BBD but really worthless piece of statement.

Sell Aircrafts elsewhere and acquire significant orders, then come back and show how viable the project for this efficient aircraft is. Then you can come backf for further and worthy talks...

Ahha as if that would be useful, see how PC-98 and tron code and such get treated
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
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washingtonflyer
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:16 am

blrsea wrote:
Can DL get the CS-100s through a lessor base outside of US? If some company based in say Europe purchases the jets and leases it to DL, would that be legal or would it cause duties to be levied on lease amounts too?


Answered before....not allowed under the middleman dumping provision.
 
afgeneral
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:18 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
This is going to bite boeing in the @$$ BIG TIME. It's now Canada's turn: here's to the 220% tarriff on all 737s, 777s and 787s bought by WestJet, Air Canada and Air Transat.

Bombardier still has the rest of the world. Keep up good job, my fellow Canadians, don't give in to the idiots south of your border - Boeing included.


This is just stupid. No Canadian producer manufactures an equivalent to the 787 or 777 so you can't have injury when no domestic industry exists to seek duties.


Tariffs are not only imposed with the aim of protecting local manufacturers, they are often also imposed based on reciprocity.
 
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kelvin933
Posts: 451
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:18 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.


Not dumping if it was a sale by a US company to a US customer.

Try defending this position before a NAFTA panel or a WTO panel, the results are unlikely to be pretty.
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
 
bigjku
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:21 am

Amiga500 wrote:
D L X wrote:
No it’s not. This is the United States International Trade Commission, a very important court that takes its job extremely seriously.


Then they have attained a level of stupidity I didn't know existed.


It’s always simple to call someone stupid when you disagree with them.

Regardless of if people like it or not from both a legal and form and function standpoint tax breaks are different from what happened here. If people were intellectually honest they would see that. It’s also simply illustrated by this.

In 2014-15 when BBD by all rights should have gone belly up and died you could award them a tax break of $50 billion and they still die.

We can go round and round about all the state aid that happens. I disagree with pretty much all of it. But this case was even more open and shut than most.

I am sorry people don’t like that but it’s not like a rule is being invented here. It’s been on the books forever and is well known by all parties. Calling people doing their jobs idiots without spelling out exactly why beyond emoting is silly.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:21 am

D L X wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Its a kangaroo court verdict.


No it’s not. This is the United States International Trade Commission, a very important court that takes its job extremely seriously.

And there are no verdicts there because there is no jury. It has an administrative law judge who presided over the case.
[/quote]

Incorrect, it was voted on by the members of the Commission - of which there were four at the time. ALJs play no role in Title VII cases.

D L X wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
I suppose when it'd be appealed to NAFTA, it would be quashed, but there is plenty of water to pass under the bridge before we get to that point.


Appealed to NAFTA?! What are you talking about?

It will be appealed to the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, where it will be heard by a three judge panel.


You're both kind of right. Under NAFTA, BBD would have the right to seek that a NAFTA binational panel hear the case. If they don't opt for this, but still want to appeal, the route of appeal goes to the U.S. Court of International Trade in New York - heard by a single judge. An appeal of that verdict would go to the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit for a three-judge panel.

D L X wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
Now, this being the ITC, I believe the president (as in Donald Trump) gets 90 Days to review the tariff during which time he may decide to cancel it. While the ITC must select a tariff based purely on law, presidential action is purely politics. So if you are bothered by this judgment, your audience lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20500.


Not reviewable by the President.
 
planespotter20
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:23 am

CX747 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
I guess Trudeau's decision to pander to his Quebec support base by bailing out Bombardier at the expense of the taxpayers in the rest of Canada did not pan out so well...


And Boeing has been bailed out and living mighty fine with massive tax breaks. I think it's a terrible move, and seriously will hurt Bombardier. The US has bailed out plenty of companies, and the bullying bully Boeing is no exception.


There has been no US government bailout of Boeing. Nice fake news. The company earned it's place at the international table and is privately held. Airbus got to where it is by being created and supported by governments for years. Now they stand almost equal to Boeing. All the while Lockheed and McDonnell Douglas fell with a Euro backed manufacturer picking up the pieces. Think Lockheed would have loved for Uncle Sam to finance a narrowbody line to compliment the L1011? Americans didn't say a word as two US commercial jet manufacturers left the market. Europe then had the nerve to get involved in how Boeing took over MD. This after decades of pumping money into Airbus.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. No more eating away at a free market driven company's bottom line because others want to make jets too. Earn your own way or fail.

Shame on Delta too. Screaming at the top of their lungs about the ME3, waiving the American flag to US politicians and then spend a ton of money on European and Canadian jets while sticking it the Red White and Blue manufacturer.


The red white and blue manufacturer that outsources its planes (we can’t have that, right? AMERICA FIRST, right?). The manufacturer who receives subsidies and tax breaks like there’s no tomorrow.

That manufacturer has a lot of red on its hands but I’m not sure about the blue and white.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:25 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
This is just stupid. No Canadian producer manufactures an equivalent to the 787 or 777 so you can't have injury when no domestic industry exists to seek duties.


This is just stupid. No American producer manufactures an equivalent to the CS100 so you can't have injury when no domestic industry exists to seek duties.


See what I did there?
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:27 am

kelvin933 wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.


Not dumping if it was a sale by a US company to a US customer.

Try defending this position before a NAFTA panel or a WTO panel, the results are unlikely to be pretty.


I'm sorry but what you are saying is impossibly stupid. The WTO panel hears disputes regarding -international- trade matters (as does the NAFTA panel). A sale by a U.S. manufacturer to a U.S. customer is not subject to the jurisdiction of the WTO or the NAFTA panel.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:30 am

Amiga500 wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
This is just stupid. No Canadian producer manufactures an equivalent to the 787 or 777 so you can't have injury when no domestic industry exists to seek duties.


This is just stupid. No American producer manufactures an equivalent to the CS100 so you can't have injury when no domestic industry exists to seek duties.


See what I did there?


But the Commission found that there was overlap, and several importers agreed that there was overlap.

Perhaps you could point to us the product that BBD makes that could hold more than 175 passengers and make it from LAX to AKL nonstop.

I know you vehemently disagree with the decision that the ITC made in the prelim, so please feel free to call Covington and Burling in DC (BBD's counsel) and advise them of your opinion. I'm sure they've not thought about it.
Last edited by washingtonflyer on Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Amiga500
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:32 am

bigjku wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
D L X wrote:
No it’s not. This is the United States International Trade Commission, a very important court that takes its job extremely seriously.


Then they have attained a level of stupidity I didn't know existed.


It’s always simple to call someone stupid when you disagree with them.


It's always simple to call people stupid when they are being stupid (and I disagree with them).

FACT - Boeing have received more state aid via various guises in the last 10 years than Bombardier.
FACT - Boeing have sold hundreds of 787 at below build cost. Some of those sales with the aid of the ExIm bank.
FACT - No US manufacturer produces an equivalent to the CS100.

The position taken by Boeing is completely hypocritical and the decisions taken so far by the ITC are inept or biased. The last fact above (as endorsed by numerous US airlines) should be enough in itself to end the proceedings.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:33 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.


Not dumping if it was a sale by a US company to a US customer.


Not according to USA national law, but combined with the action against Bombardier, a revue by NAFTA or the WTO could come to a different conclusion. Factually it is the same move, a subsidized company putting pressure on the competition by dumping the price.
 
washingtonflyer
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Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:35 am

mjoelnir wrote:
washingtonflyer wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
What did Boeing call their below cost to United deal to block the CS deal for United. I'd say selling under cost makes Boeing a price dumper as well. also sorry guys but Delta was right Boeing had nothing to offer in the seat catagory so if it's price dumping they should file a dispute against Boeing for do that on the CS100/UA deal. Pot meet Kettle.


Not dumping if it was a sale by a US company to a US customer.


Not according to USA national law,


OK, cite me the law.


mjoelnir wrote:
but combined with the action against Bombardier, a revue by NAFTA or the WTO could come to a different conclusion. Factually it is the same move, a subsidized company putting pressure on the competition by dumping the price.


Subsidy and dumping are different issues - people conflate this.

Again, the WTO and NAFTA have NO jurisdiction over sales by a company to a company within the confines of the same border.

Really.
 
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SomebodyInTLS
Posts: 1780
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:31 pm

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:36 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
This is going to bite boeing in the @$$ BIG TIME. It's now Canada's turn: here's to the 220% tarriff on all 737s, 777s and 787s bought by WestJet, Air Canada and Air Transat.

Bombardier still has the rest of the world. Keep up good job, my fellow Canadians, don't give in to the idiots south of your border - Boeing included.


This is just stupid. No Canadian producer manufactures an equivalent to the 787 or 777 so you can't have injury when no domestic industry exists to seek duties.


If I understand correctly, according to the WTO rules they could impose tariffs on anything they like as a countermeasure if they won this type of proceedings... time to file a case there?
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2493
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Boeing targets Bombardier for “price dumping” CSeries

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:37 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
But the Commission found that there was overlap, and several importers agreed that there was overlap.


What importers?

The commission has demonstrated through its actions it is not qualified to judge on the aerospace market.

The CS100 has a nominal seat count of 110, the 737-7 has a nominal seat count of 138 = 25% bigger. Does that mean if there were a scope clause court case, with an airline operating a 100 seat aircraft instead of 76 seats, the union complaint would be chucked out because the court deems them to overlap?



washingtonflyer wrote:
I know you vehemently disagree with the decision that the ITC made in the prelim, so please feel free to call Covington and Burling in DC (BBD's counsel) and advise them of your opinion. I'm sure they've not thought about it.


I wouldn't waste my breath. The idiocy and arrogance of those in the legal profession know no bounds.

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