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pugman211
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:43 pm

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!!!!! Get in Bombardier
 
bigjku
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:43 pm

mat66 wrote:
US ITC votes unanimously: No injury for Boeing! Bombardier wins! https://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/956 ... 66/photo/1

I didn't expect that at all. Very surprising.


I don’t know that it’s that shocking on this particular instance. Harm was always a bit nebulous so long as the C-Series stays the same size as it is.
 
SkyGrunt
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:44 pm

Wow. I'm pleasantly surprised. Restored my faith a little in the system. Congrats to Bombardier and to the US. It was the right decision and if anything maybe it will force Boeing to innovate instead of litigate. We all benefit from that.

Sent from my BBB100-1 using Tapatalk
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:45 pm

Called it.
 
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scbriml
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:46 pm

Boeing - face meet egg.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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atlflyer
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:47 pm

So how soon until we get to see Delta take the C-series? Hopefully very soon!
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:47 pm

Yeah Bombardier!

Keep dumping. lol
 
MSPNWA
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:48 pm

I don't know if it's more sad or alarming that dumping below manufacturing cost is not only accepted but celebrated. There may not be a single action more disruptive and anti-competitive to capitalism than government-sponsored dumping.

It's also disappointing that the USITC can find a "medium-to-high degree of sustainability" and still not find harm. Makes you wonder what country they work for. Well, at least we can all get on with our lives now. Until the saga goes on that is...
Last edited by MSPNWA on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Keith2004
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:48 pm

Boeing soured relationships with Delta, Canadian Gov and others for nothing :hissyfit:
Last edited by Keith2004 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Bricktop
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:51 pm

scbriml wrote:
Boeing - face meet egg.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

US justice system FTW! All those conspiracy theorist anti-US (and indirectly anti current administration) faces - meet egg. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
bigjku
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:52 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Called it.


In your view would an accurate summary of this case would largely be that BBD was found guilty as sin of taking prohibited subsidies and aid but Boeing isn’t harmed because there wasn’t a competing product?

That would seem to me to imply that so long as you keep the plane in the market it is in you can dump it because no US company offers a viable alternative. However it would also seem to imply that if you were to build something bigger that legitimately competed against larger aircraft one would more likely than not have an issue.

Does that sound about right?
 
jfern022
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:53 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
I don't know if it's more sad or alarming that dumping below manufacturing cost is not only accepted but celebrated. There may not be a single action more disruptive and anti-competitive to capitalism than government-sponsored dumping.

It's also disappointing that the USITC can find a "medium-to-high degree of sustainability" and still not find harm. Makes you wonder what country they work for. Well, at least we can all get on with our lives now. Until the saga goes on that is...


Boeing is guilty of price dumping too. They know they did it with the 787 and the 73W to UA
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:53 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
I don't know if it's more sad or alarming that dumping below manufacturing cost is not only accepted but celebrated.


Celebrated I guess.

You are incompetent builting a program, you almost get urself bankrupt, then the Government brings u back with subsidy, after that u cant sell the goddamm plane without dumping it for a fraction of the cost price, and as thats not enought, you spread ur legs to a foreign company so thay just take over ur program and do whatever the hell they want.

But yay, Boeing lost, lets celebrate.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:54 pm

Congratulations Boeing...you played yourself!
 
MSPNWA
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:00 pm

washingtonflyer wrote:
Called it.

Yes you did.

Think it was more a case of Boeing missteps in their case? Or is this panel not staunchly pro-U.S.?
 
MSPNWA
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:05 pm

jfern022 wrote:
Boeing is guilty of price dumping too. They know they did it with the 787 and the 73W to UA


You don't understand what dumping is. Dumping is selling below variable costs, not total average cost. The latter is a necessary and common business practice and a wise decision for the company. The former isn't profitable and means the product can't be sustained at that level. Neither of those Boeing cases have any evidence of being below a variable cost level on an aggregate basis.
 
jfern022
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:08 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
jfern022 wrote:
Boeing is guilty of price dumping too. They know they did it with the 787 and the 73W to UA


You don't understand what dumping is. Dumping is selling below variable costs, not total average cost. Neither of those cases have evidence of being below that level.


Actually I am well aware of what dumping is. UA was sold the 73W at well below cost. That is a fact. They purposely sold them lower to keep UA from looking at the C-Series. So if the 73NG wasn’t sold in the thousands, would it be dumping by your logic since the average is lower?

If it was your beloved NW, would you be speaking negative?

So many pro-Boeing blinders on here with people.
 
jfern022
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:09 pm

alan3 wrote:
YuriMG2 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
I don't know if it's more sad or alarming that dumping below manufacturing cost is not only accepted but celebrated.


Celebrated I guess.

You are incompetent builting a program, you almost get urself bankrupt, then the Government brings u back with subsidy, after that u cant sell the goddamm plane without dumping it for a fraction of the cost price, and as thats not enought, you spread ur legs to a foreign company so thay just take over ur program and do whatever the hell they want.

But yay, Boeing lost, lets celebrate.


Can't these be considered two separate issues?

Bombardier's failures and the Canadian government bail out is fully open for criticism, but can't one at the same time also criticize Boeing for bullying a rival company over a plane that they don't even compete with and were never in the running for anyway?


And a plane which has proven to be better than what Boeing could have sold?
 
alan3
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:09 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
I don't know if it's more sad or alarming that dumping below manufacturing cost is not only accepted but celebrated.


Celebrated I guess.

You are incompetent builting a program, you almost get urself bankrupt, then the Government brings u back with subsidy, after that u cant sell the goddamm plane without dumping it for a fraction of the cost price, and as thats not enought, you spread ur legs to a foreign company so thay just take over ur program and do whatever the hell they want.

But yay, Boeing lost, lets celebrate.


Can't these be considered two separate issues?

Bombardier's failures and the Canadian government bail out is fully open for criticism, but can't one at the same time also criticize Boeing for bullying a rival company over a plane that they don't even compete with and were never in the running for anyway?
Last edited by alan3 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AvroLanc
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:15 pm

I expect the cs500 will be built in Mobile and 100 300 in Mirabel.
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northstardc4m
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:17 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
jfern022 wrote:
Boeing is guilty of price dumping too. They know they did it with the 787 and the 73W to UA


You don't understand what dumping is. Dumping is selling below variable costs, not total average cost. The latter is a necessary and common business practice and a wise decision for the company. The former isn't profitable and means the product can't be sustained at that level. Neither of those Boeing cases have any evidence of being below a variable cost level on an aggregate basis.


And yet you are claiming Bombardier did without actual production costs or exports or even inventory... In a situation dang similar to the first 787 sales... take it for what it is, this is far far FAR more complex an issue that calling it one thing or another. International trade issues are never EVER black and white and the more people complain one way or another about it the less the arguments actually apply to the issues. "Dumping" was never the right term to be used with this as there was never anything Dumped... this was about numbers on paper and a gross misuse of trade law... it was all about a contract price, not a final delivery price, on items not even made yet. Boeing lost today. CSALP won. This battle went one way, the war is far from over and includes many more issues than the C-Series.

If i had to guess why Boeing lost today it's because they failed to show they actually had skin in the transaction. Delta's testimony pretty much showed Boeing had nothing in play in the sale so had no damages.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:21 pm

jfern022 wrote:
Actually I am well aware of what dumping is. UA was sold the 73W at well below cost. That is a fact. They purposely sold them lower to keep UA from looking at the C-Series. So if the 73NG wasn’t sold in the thousands, would it be dumping by your logic since the average is lower?

Again you are demonstrating thoughts that tell us you don't know what dumping is. By definition dumping doesn't exist when selling in your home market.

Even if you find cured concrete evidence that UA sold 73Gs below variable costs (please post it BTW), it's not dumping.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:24 pm

If you need subsidy, dumping and a Airbus takeover to sell a better plane u souldnt be in the game.

Close the door, focus on trains and move on.

This wouldnt be a issue if the plane was sold at a fair price, Boeing wouldve had to swallow the pride pill and leave BBD alone.

I dont blame Boeing for taking action. If Embraer for example dumps the Ejets for a main canadian company, BBD would do the same.
 
leghorn
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:25 pm

Boeing have been sniffing around Embraer because they forced Bombardier(C-series project) in to the arms of their arch competitor and their enemy was almost paid by Bombardier to take the project on.
What is the cost of an Embraer acquisition? According to reports their valuations put it at 6 billion and they would be giving about 2.5 to 3 billion.

These are software company type takeover costs but ever dollar/euro in commercial aircraft manufacture is hard earned.
They lose military sales to Canada and the U.K. Government hate them now endangering future military sales.

I'm surprised their share price is only marginally down.

Bombardier/Airbus can go ahead now and get down to the business of building planes with no fear of punitive damages in a hostile legal process. It might not be the last time they are in court about this but nowhere near as biased as this process was/potentially was.

I'm up 10k right now on my 25k investment in Bombardier but it has been a frustrating 10 months. The opportunities for sales and general uncertainty over the future of Bombardier hasn't helped me but it is nothing compared to the misery that Boeing Bastards inflicted on the employees of Bombardier over the last 10 months.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:27 pm

leghorn wrote:
Boeing have been sniffing around Embraer because they forced Bombardier(C-series project) in to the arms of their arch competitor and their enemy was almost paid by Bombardier to take the project on.
What is the cost of an Embraer acquisition? According to reports their valuations put it at 6 billion and they would be giving about 2.5 to 3 billion.

These are software company type takeover costs but ever dollar/euro in commercial aircraft manufacture is hard earned.
They lose military sales to Canada and the U.K. Government hate them now endangering future military sales.

I'm surprised their share price is only marginally down.

Bombardier/Airbus can go ahead now and get down to the business of building planes with no fear of punitive damages in a hostile legal process. It might not be the last time they are in court about this but nowhere near as biased as this process was/potentially was.

I'm up 10k right now on my 25k investment in Bombardier but it has been a frustrating 10 months. The opportunities for sales and general uncertainty over the future of Bombardier hasn't helped me but it is nothing compared to the misery that Boeing Bastards inflicted on the employees of Bombardier over the last 10 months.


This is the third time Boeing tries to buy Embraer since the 90's. This negotiation is not a development of the CS case.
 
jfern022
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:31 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
If you need subsidy, dumping and a Airbus takeover to sell a better plane u souldnt be in the game.

Close the door, focus on trains and move on.

This wouldnt be a issue if the plane was sold at a fair price, Boeing wouldve had to swallow the pride pill and leave BBD alone.

I dont blame Boeing for taking action. If Embraer for example dumps the Ejets for a main canadian company, BBD would do the same.


Let me know when Boeing is free of taking subsidies whether direct or indirect, tax breaks, so on and so forth.
 
Amiga500
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:32 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
jfern022 wrote:
Actually I am well aware of what dumping is. UA was sold the 73W at well below cost. That is a fact. They purposely sold them lower to keep UA from looking at the C-Series. So if the 73NG wasn’t sold in the thousands, would it be dumping by your logic since the average is lower?

Again you are demonstrating thoughts that tell us you don't know what dumping is. By definition dumping doesn't exist when selling in your home market.

Even if you find cured concrete evidence that UA sold 73Gs below variable costs (please post it BTW), it's not dumping.


Meh.

If you want to define "dumping" as the sales cost necessary to penetrate a major market, get a major player in that market on board and get a major MRO organisation on board, then so be it.
Last edited by Amiga500 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
leghorn
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:32 pm

They could have bought Bombardier Aviation interests a few months ago for pocket change not long ago getting a better product in the bargain and you would like us to believe that Boeing sniffing around Embraer now has nothing to do with the massive clusterf*ck that they fashioned for themselves through their own malignity.
 
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YuriMG2
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:34 pm

Boeing was not interested in the CS.

Someday you will have to learn how to live with that.
 
Dash9
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:35 pm

I know Delta has said it will only take CS deliveries from Alabama but are they legally bound to that? Was it only some smoke and mirrors for ITC? Now that there aren't any tariff and that some CS100 must had already started early completion in the Mirabel FAL, why wouldn't Delta take these?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -c-444289/
 
MSPNWA
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:35 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
And yet you are claiming Bombardier did without actual production costs or exports or even inventory... In a situation dang similar to the first 787 sales... take it for what it is, this is far far FAR more complex an issue that calling it one thing or another. International trade issues are never EVER black and white and the more people complain one way or another about it the less the arguments actually apply to the issues. "Dumping" was never the right term to be used with this as there was never anything Dumped... this was about numbers on paper and a gross misuse of trade law... it was all about a contract price, not a final delivery price, on items not even made yet. Boeing lost today. CSALP won. This battle went one way, the war is far from over and includes many more issues than the C-Series.

If i had to guess why Boeing lost today it's because they failed to show they actually had skin in the transaction. Delta's testimony pretty much showed Boeing had nothing in play in the sale so had no damages.


Bombardier didn't even give the Department of Commerce an estimate that showed they were on the plus side of variable costs. They basically blew them off. In this case, no response was the same as guilty. They dumped using government money. It's clear as day. Their only saving grace to avoid tariffs was trying to convince four people that it didn't harm Boeing. And there they succeeded.
 
Amiga500
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:36 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Bombardier didn't even give Boeing an estimate that showed they were on the plus side of variable costs.


Fixed that for you.

MSPNWA wrote:
They basically blew them off. In this case, no response was the same as guilty.


Is it? Can you recall the rights that a police officer would read to someone they are arresting?

I'm sure there is a line in there somewhere "you have the right to remain silent"...


MSPNWA wrote:
They dumped using government money. It's clear as day.


That, is clear as day.

But, its also clear as day that the govt will be expecting a return on their investment. It wasn't a grant they were given.

Furthermore, no domestic company was harmed. Therefore no issue.
 
alan3
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:38 pm

Why are there 2 discussion threads about the same thing... ?
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:38 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
northstardc4m wrote:
And yet you are claiming Bombardier did without actual production costs or exports or even inventory... In a situation dang similar to the first 787 sales... take it for what it is, this is far far FAR more complex an issue that calling it one thing or another. International trade issues are never EVER black and white and the more people complain one way or another about it the less the arguments actually apply to the issues. "Dumping" was never the right term to be used with this as there was never anything Dumped... this was about numbers on paper and a gross misuse of trade law... it was all about a contract price, not a final delivery price, on items not even made yet. Boeing lost today. CSALP won. This battle went one way, the war is far from over and includes many more issues than the C-Series.

If i had to guess why Boeing lost today it's because they failed to show they actually had skin in the transaction. Delta's testimony pretty much showed Boeing had nothing in play in the sale so had no damages.


Bombardier didn't even give the Department of Commerce an estimate that showed they were on the plus side of variable costs. They basically blew them off. In this case, no response was the same as guilty. They dumped using government money. It's clear as day. Their only saving grace to avoid tariffs was trying to convince four people that it didn't harm Boeing. And there they succeeded.


Well then why didn't Boeing take the subsidy issue to the WTO instead of trying to claim an unproduced item was dumped and caused them harm in a deal they weren't even party of?
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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seahawk
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:39 pm

I wonder if this is the end of it.
 
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QuarkFly
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:40 pm

And now drop the unnecessary US assembly plant...Delta hopefully will be taking C-Series ASAP !!
Always take the Red Eye if possible
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:43 pm

seahawk wrote:
I wonder if this is the end of it.


Depends what you think "it" is...

This is the end of the %300 tariff claim. This is not the end of the C-Series and legal challenges, however now the challenges will be longer more drawn out less directly impacting. WTO, NAFTA, court litigation and so on.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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northstardc4m
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:45 pm

QuarkFly wrote:
And now drop the unnecessary US assembly plant...Delta hopefully will be taking C-Series ASAP !!


Absolutely last thing they will do... like i said before this only means Delta gets some of it's planes from Mirabel. Mobile will still get a FAL for the C-Series, otherwise more trade actions are likely to grind into view.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
777Mech
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:46 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
Boeing was not interested in the CS.

Someday you will have to learn how to live with that.


And they will now deal with the ramifications of not being interested.

If they were so hurt by the CS, they should have bought it for pennies on the dollar. Baby can go get in the corner now.
 
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diverdave
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:47 pm

jfern022 wrote:
Boeing is guilty of price dumping too. They know they did it with the 787 and the 73W to UA


Boeing is not guilty of price dumping to UA.

Price dumping occurs when a foreign manufacturer exports a product at a price lower than what is charged in the domestic market. Which is exactly what Bombardier did. The Dept of Commerce concluded that the dumping did not injure Boeing.

By definition Boeing cannot price dump to any USA airline.

Cheers,
David
 
lostsound
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:50 pm

I expect a B6 order this year, especially with the Airbus partnership the E190s couldn't find a more beneficial replacement.
 
leghorn
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:51 pm

northstardc4m wrote:
QuarkFly wrote:
And now drop the unnecessary US assembly plant...Delta hopefully will be taking C-Series ASAP !!


Absolutely last thing they will do... like i said before this only means Delta gets some of it's planes from Mirabel. Mobile will still get a FAL for the C-Series, otherwise more trade actions are likely to grind into view.

and as much of the CS500 specific parts will be US manfactured as possible to bring local content up from 52% to nearer 60 to 66%.
 
many321
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:07 pm

Good. I guess certain board members in Chicago are having a melt-down. Hope Boeing starts innovating than picking chicken fights. Hope with this gives the green-light to other carriers and order the aircraft or push BBD and Airbus to build the CS500.
Last edited by many321 on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:10 pm

leghorn wrote:
and as much of the CS500 specific parts will be US manfactured as possible to bring local content up from 52% to nearer 60 to 66%.

Interesting indeed.

Actually, Airbus might use the launch of the CS500 to change (or apply pressure to) some suppliers who's been gauging BBD. CSeries suppliers pricings will eventually get closer to what Airbus is getting. (Airbus expects cutting production costs by at least 15% - mostly via supplier's cost savings)
Last edited by ExMilitaryEng on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
leghorn
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:18 pm

If I wanted to put Boeing on the backfoot and put the jitters in their investors I'd announce the CS500 for entry around 2024 to 2025.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:02 pm

diverdave wrote:
jfern022 wrote:
Boeing is guilty of price dumping too. They know they did it with the 787 and the 73W to UA


Boeing is not guilty of price dumping to UA.

Price dumping occurs when a foreign manufacturer exports a product at a price lower than what is charged in the domestic market. Which is exactly what Bombardier did. The Dept of Commerce concluded that the dumping did not injure Boeing.

By definition Boeing cannot price dump to any USA airline.

Cheers,
David


It's the ITC that makes determinations of injury, not Commerce.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:09 pm

Dumping hurts competition because it creates a barrier to entry. Why would anyone want to compete if they will be undersold at a price that can't make anyone money?

Boeing is harmed because they can't compete in that market. Just because they don't sell a competitor now doesn't mean they aren't harmed. Dumping prevents them from ever selling a competitor, shrinking their potential market, and thus creating harm.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AirbusCanada
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:14 am

Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:12 pm

YuriMG2 wrote:
If you need subsidy, dumping and a Airbus takeover to sell a better plane u souldnt be in the game.

Close the door, focus on trains and move on.

This wouldnt be a issue if the plane was sold at a fair price, Boeing wouldve had to swallow the pride pill and leave BBD alone.

I dont blame Boeing for taking action. If Embraer for example dumps the Ejets for a main canadian company, BBD would do the same.


I think you just describe the textbook definition of on how to sustained a Monopoly by bullying an innovative new entrant.
Economics 101: As a new entrant, Bombardier has no choice but to price match the established players. The Price is set by Boeing/Airbus, and bombardier has to match them in order to be able to even make a sales pitch.

AT least, Bombardier did not give away free aircraft like Airbus did to Eastern.


By the way Embraer did dump (selling below cost) the EJets in Bombardier's home market Canada and Bombardier did not sue them for dumping.
Last edited by AirbusCanada on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:13 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Dumping hurts competition because it creates a barrier to entry. Why would anyone want to compete if they will be undersold at a price that can't make anyone money?

Boeing is harmed because they can't compete in that market. Just because they don't sell a competitor now doesn't mean they aren't harmed. Dumping prevents them from ever selling a competitor, shrinking their potential market, and thus creating harm.


So what exactly was Boeing doing when it sold the 737 to UA for firesale prices?

Was that not a barrier to entry?
 
777Mech
Posts: 995
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: U.S. Dept of Commerce backs Boeing in dispute with Bombardier

Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:21 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Dumping hurts competition because it creates a barrier to entry. Why would anyone want to compete if they will be undersold at a price that can't make anyone money?

Boeing is harmed because they can't compete in that market. Just because they don't sell a competitor now doesn't mean they aren't harmed. Dumping prevents them from ever selling a competitor, shrinking their potential market, and thus creating harm.


Please fill me in on what what Boeing offers in the 100 seat market with the PW geared Turbofan? I'll wait.

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