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LAXintl
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AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:20 pm

As follow on to AA buying $200M stake in China Southern Airlines, the carriers have formally now applied to implement code-sharing relationship.

Carriers propose to commence the agreement on October 29, 2017 on the below city pairs.

Routes operated by AA
LAX -
Charlotte
Chicago
Dallas
Washington-Dulles
Houston-Intercontinental
Mexico City
Philadelphia
Phoenix
Tucson
Vancouver

SFO -
Chicago
Dallas
Philadelphia
Phoenix

YYZ -
Chicago
Dallas

Routes operated by CZ
PEK -
Changchun
Changsha
Chengdu
Chongqing
Dalian
Guangzhou
Hangzhou
Harbin
Kunming
Nanning
Shenyang
Shenzhen
Wuhan
Xi’an

=

OST-2017-TBA


Interesting they are not codesharing on any TransPac segments. CZ retains codeshares with DL.
 
commavia
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:32 pm

:checkmark:

AA president Robert Isom today referred to this pending codeshare, and the broader strategic relationship, with China Southern as a "game changer" for AA. I suspect he's right - this is going to dramatically improve AA's competitive position in Mainland China.
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:50 pm

super cool news. thanks for sharing!

why are JFK and YVR excluded from this list?
 
jumbojet
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:59 pm

$200,000,000 is a lot of money. Time will tell if its money well spent or if it turns out to be a complete disaster. I don't think anyone can say this is as slam dunk as AA would like for you to believe.
 
globalcabotage
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:02 am

commavia wrote:
:checkmark:

AA president Robert Isom today referred to this pending codeshare, and the broader strategic relationship, with China Southern as a "game changer" for AA. I suspect he's right - this is going to dramatically improve AA's competitive position in Mainland China.


Maybe this will help AA get better slots for ORD and LAX!
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:32 am

Will be interesting to watch this and see where things go with AA.

I do wonder what path CZ will take longer term, whether it maintains relations with both AA and DL, or decides to shed DL/Skyteam and move towards OW?
 
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NYCRuss
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:57 am

LAXintl wrote:
Will be interesting to watch this and see where things go with AA.

I do wonder what path CZ will take longer term, whether it maintains relations with both AA and DL, or decides to shed DL/Skyteam and move towards OW?


Is CZ happy in Skyteam?
 
commavia
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:49 am

LAXintl wrote:
Will be interesting to watch this and see where things go with AA.

I do wonder what path CZ will take longer term, whether it maintains relations with both AA and DL, or decides to shed DL/Skyteam and move towards OW?


Agreed. At least in terms of the transpacific relationship, it seems clear that the natural pull for China Southern will be away from Delta and towards its new part-owner AA. And, long-term, there's no question that the "strategic relationship" between China Southern and AA has the potential to generate a great deal of value for both carriers.

When it comes to an alliance, though, I guess the question becomes the strength of China Southern's relationships with other SkyTeam carriers. China Southern certainly does codeshare with lots of SkyTeam airlines, but it does also have relationships with a notable number of non-SkyTeam airlines, including several oneworld carriers.

Personally, I don't think it will happen tomorrow, but if it could be done without totally upsetting the apple cart with Cathay Pacific, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see China Southern move to oneworld eventually, at some point down the road.
 
[email protected]
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:54 am

Game changer with a state-owned and state-subsidised airline. Tut, tut. ;-)
 
uberflieger
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:43 pm

jumbojet wrote:
$200,000,000 is a lot of money


It's a bargain considering Delta paid $450,000,000 for its share in China Eastern.

The partnership with a Chinese carrier most certainly is a game changer and already American benefited getting the desired slots for the LAX startup. It's kind of ironic, Delta spending $450 Million may have opened the doors for AA :twisted: and whether or not CZ ends up switching alliances, in the meantime Beijing will no longer be a dead end for the 3 AA TPAC flights.
 
ty97
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:58 pm

IrishAyes wrote:
super cool news. thanks for sharing!

why are JFK and YVR excluded from this list?


It may have to do with flight times on the CZ end. The CZ CAN-JFK flights arrive at/around 11:00pm (no connections available on AA) and 5:15am (limited connections available). It's also possible that the Delta relationship (with DLs large presence at JFK/LGA) restricts what CZ can do here, but I'm only speculating on that point.

The YVR flight has a much friendlier arrival time but AA/CZ may assume that they connections available (only AA hub flights) are already handled by the other codeshares.
 
wn676
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:01 pm

commavia wrote:
And, long-term, there's no question that the "strategic relationship" between China Southern and AA has the potential to generate a great deal of value for both carriers.


Yeah, but how much in penalties will CZ be paying to both MU and DL for doing this? :duck:
 
commavia
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:02 pm

uberflieger wrote:
It's a bargain considering Delta paid $450,000,000 for its share in China Eastern.


Yeah, no kidding - not to mention the other ~$1.5 billion Delta has spent buying partners all around the world.

uberflieger wrote:
The partnership with a Chinese carrier most certainly is a game changer and already American benefited getting the desired slots for the LAX startup.


Indeed. This investment is already paying dividends in the form of giving AA a credible shot at being competitive on LAX-PEK, and the two airlines haven't even started the codesharing and reciprocal marketing partnership yet. It isn't hard at all to see how both sides viewed this deal as relatively low-risk with a very high potential payoff.
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:10 pm

[email protected] wrote:
Game changer with a state-owned and state-subsidised airline. Tut, tut. ;-)


Singapore Airlines is mostly state-owned too. The US3 don't complain about that.

Simple fact: they only bitch about competition. Yet frankly this competition has helped drive them to improve substantially.

The US3 so far have acted as rent-seekers.
 
panamair
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:22 pm

uberflieger wrote:

It's a bargain considering Delta paid $450,000,000 for its share in China Eastern.
.


But Delta is getting BOTH Shanghai and Beijing for that price with MU. Remember MU was recently granted home carrier status (together with CZ) at the new Beijing Daxing airport. It is expected that MU and CZ will each have about 40% market share at the new airport (with MU targeting about 150-200 aircraft to be based at Daxing). This will essentially give MU dual hubs at Beijing and Shanghai, the two largest and most lucrative markets in China, at the same time.

https://centreforaviation.com/insights/ ... ner-325372
 
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mercure1
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:36 pm

While maybe CZ-DL are not best friends, they do have a longstanding deep JV with AF/KL covering Europe, Mideast and Africa. So any exit of ST by CZ would leave it a hole in Europe which I am not sure is filled similarly by OW carrier like BA.
 
hejj422
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:37 pm

mercure1 wrote:
While maybe CZ-DL are not best friends, they do have a longstanding deep JV with AF/KL covering Europe, Mideast and Africa. So any exit of ST by CZ would leave it a hole in Europe which I am not sure is filled similarly by OW carrier like BA.

Not sure how CZ feels about staying in ST at the moment. But obviously, KL is not willing to abort their JV as they sent some delegates to CZ headquarter regarding further cooperation in July.

Still early to talk about how AA-CZ deal will benefit each other at this stage. It will largely depends on the negotiation of traffic rights between CAAC & FAA.
 
EddieDude
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:15 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Routes operated by AA
LAX -
Charlotte
Chicago
Dallas
Washington-Dulles
Houston-Intercontinental
Mexico City

Very funny LAX-MEX will be a codeshare route, considering that CZ already flies to MEX via YVR 3 or 4x weekly. I suppose CZ wants to have daily access to MEX even if it is through a codeshare rather than using its own metal.

commavia wrote:
When it comes to an alliance, though, I guess the question becomes the strength of China Southern's relationships with other SkyTeam carriers. China Southern certainly does codeshare with lots of SkyTeam airlines, but it does also have relationships with a notable number of non-SkyTeam airlines, including several oneworld carriers.

That is true. AF and KL seem to be happy being partners with both CZ and MU. Not only that. When it comes to DL itself, many of the Intra-Asia or Asia-Americas award tickets that DL's site displays for redemption are for CZ flights (based on the searches I have made, much more than KE, GA, VN or MU). Not that this means much, but I guess in some aspects DL and CZ continue to find ways to cooperate as SkyTeam members.

panamair wrote:
Remember MU was recently granted home carrier status (together with CZ) at the new Beijing Daxing airport... It is expected that MU and CZ will each have about 40% market share at the new airport (with MU targeting about 150-200 aircraft to be based at Daxing). This will essentially give MU dual hubs at Beijing and Shanghai, the two largest and most lucrative markets in China, at the same time.

That is great news for MU and also for DL regarding its mainland China opportunities.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:36 pm

If CZ tried to join OW, CX would block it just as they have done to HU. CX sees themselves as the Chinese OW carrier.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:43 am

usflyer msp wrote:
CX sees themselves as the Chinese OW carrier.

Be funny if CX went the other route and ended up hooking up with DL.

Would certainly help DL's historic weakness in HKG, and they'd likely not compete on (m)any routes.
 
ldvaviation
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:51 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Be funny if CX went the other route and ended up hooking up with DL.

Would certainly help DL's historic weakness in HKG, and they'd likely not compete on (m)any routes.


The more likely possibility is that CX would join Star Alliance, especially if it cedes more control to AirChina as result of its ongoing strategic restructuring.

The problem with that move is that I doubt the DOT would approve a CX/UA codeshare.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:33 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Be funny if CX went the other route and ended up hooking up with DL.

The more likely possibility is that CX would join Star Alliance

What'd be the point? They could just codeshare with whomever.
If they, or really any major carrier, dropped out of an alliance nowadays, I doubt they'd be all that willing to get back into one.



ldvaviation wrote:
The problem with that move is that I doubt the DOT would approve a CX/UA codeshare.

Based on what?

Tell us about the last time the DOT denied a basic onward codeshare between international partners....
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:43 pm

What about CAN? Could AA start flying to CAN and expand their cooperation there? That would be a good option for codeshare connections to Southeast Asia and even Australia/NZ/India.
 
ahj2000
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:18 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
What about CAN? Could AA start flying to CAN and expand their cooperation there? That would be a good option for codeshare connections to Southeast Asia and even Australia/NZ/India.

From what I understand, Guangzhou has next to no US-originating traffic, so I doubt it.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:22 pm

Not widely announced, but AA has moved terminals at PEK. Carrier relocated from T3 to T2.

Per Russ Fortson, AA MD, Asia Pacific
"By moving to Terminal 2, our customers will have faster, more convenient connections to China Southern’s flights out of this terminal. It will reduce the minimum connecting time from 150 minutes to 100, making the agreement American has with China Southern more attractive to more customers.”
 
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mercure1
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:09 pm

I hope AA-CZ actually work on the connection experience. I don't recall ever using PEK Terminal 2, but in general connecting in China can be a hassle as the appalling long MCT times indicate.
Compare this to ICN with as short as 45min published MCT or, 60min at HKG or NRT.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:11 pm

mercure1 wrote:
I hope AA-CZ actually work on the connection experience. I don't recall ever using PEK Terminal 2, but in general connecting in China can be a hassle as the appalling long MCT times indicate.
Compare this to ICN with as short as 45min published MCT or, 60min at HKG or NRT.


I really don't think 45 min vs 60 min makes much of a difference.

The biggest issue inside China is the frequent delays for any number of reasons. And frankly, it doesn't matter which airport the transfer is at.

The great thing here is that a whole host of itinerary for secondary Chinese cities have been opened up on one AA ticket.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:31 pm

tphuang wrote:
]

I really don't think 45 min vs 60 min makes much of a difference.

The biggest issue inside China is the frequent delays for any number of reasons. And frankly, it doesn't matter which airport the transfer is at.



The "Improved" PEK CZ-AA MCT is 100min. That's still quite a difference compared to other connection options in Far East as mercure1 list.

Overall China really needs to work on its airport transit experience is if expects to truly garner such traffic flow in the years to come.
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:59 pm

I'm waiting on AA to take a stab at applying for the seven weekly slots available at CAN for US carriers. United received the slots years ago yet never took up flying, largely due the downturn at the end of last decade. Yes, LAX-CAN is operated by CZ's A380 but its timing on the CAN-LAX end is terrible for connections. With the 787-9, AA operating LAX-CAN is workable, especially if its times are primed for connections at both ends of the flight.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:06 am

DeSpringbokke wrote:
I'm waiting on AA to take a stab at applying for the seven weekly slots available at CAN for US carriers. United received the slots years ago yet never took up flying, largely due the downturn at the end of last decade. Yes, LAX-CAN is operated by CZ's A380 but its timing on the CAN-LAX end is terrible for connections. With the 787-9, AA operating LAX-CAN is workable, especially if its times are primed for connections at both ends of the flight.


Sorry don't see AA on LAX-CAN. Its neither that large of a local market, nor does it have inherent big business demand.
AA needs to figure out how to make its LAX-PVG service profitable first and get its new PEK flight running.

Also regarding CZ, it now operates CAN-LAX 10x weekly, so you do have schedules to choose from.
 
flyfresno
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:22 am

TUS seems like an oddball compared to all those other cities...
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:27 am

LAXintl wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
I'm waiting on AA to take a stab at applying for the seven weekly slots available at CAN for US carriers. United received the slots years ago yet never took up flying, largely due the downturn at the end of last decade. Yes, LAX-CAN is operated by CZ's A380 but its timing on the CAN-LAX end is terrible for connections. With the 787-9, AA operating LAX-CAN is workable, especially if its times are primed for connections at both ends of the flight.


Sorry don't see AA on LAX-CAN. Its neither that large of a local market, nor does it have inherent big business demand.
AA needs to figure out how to make its LAX-PVG service profitable first and get its new PEK flight running.

Also regarding CZ, it now operates CAN-LAX 10x weekly, so you do have schedules to choose from.


Thanks. Didn't know CAN-LAX was now 10X times weekly. I've wondered why none of the US3 has taken a shot at CAN. I believe CZ operates SFO-CAN at least 10X weekly. Is it a situation more or less like the Korean Carriers and ICN, albeit with much much less demand? AA is upgauging LAX-PVG to a 787-9 soon and LAX-PEK goes 787-9 at the end of March. However this might be more of AA basing its 787-9 fleet at LAX, which was all but announced a few years ago and should't surprise anyone.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:32 am

LAXintl wrote:
tphuang wrote:
]

I really don't think 45 min vs 60 min makes much of a difference.

The biggest issue inside China is the frequent delays for any number of reasons. And frankly, it doesn't matter which airport the transfer is at.



The "Improved" PEK CZ-AA MCT is 100min. That's still quite a difference compared to other connection options in Far East as mercure1 list.

Overall China really needs to work on its airport transit experience is if expects to truly garner such traffic flow in the years to come.


i don't think it will be as good as other airports anytime soon. The primary benefits are the number of options to secondary cities you can access from PEK that is not available from those other airports. It's technically a better location to transit than PVG, HKG and CAN, since you can continue flying south.

For any destination outside of China, I think Tokyo and HKG remain the transit airport of choice.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:40 am

DeSpringbokke wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
I'm waiting on AA to take a stab at applying for the seven weekly slots available at CAN for US carriers. United received the slots years ago yet never took up flying, largely due the downturn at the end of last decade. Yes, LAX-CAN is operated by CZ's A380 but its timing on the CAN-LAX end is terrible for connections. With the 787-9, AA operating LAX-CAN is workable, especially if its times are primed for connections at both ends of the flight.


Sorry don't see AA on LAX-CAN. Its neither that large of a local market, nor does it have inherent big business demand.
AA needs to figure out how to make its LAX-PVG service profitable first and get its new PEK flight running.

Also regarding CZ, it now operates CAN-LAX 10x weekly, so you do have schedules to choose from.


Thanks. Didn't know CAN-LAX was now 10X times weekly. I've wondered why none of the US3 has taken a shot at CAN. I believe CZ operates SFO-CAN at least 10X weekly. Is it a situation more or less like the Korean Carriers and ICN, albeit with much much less demand? AA is upgauging LAX-PVG to a 787-9 soon and LAX-PEK goes 787-9 at the end of March. However this might be more of AA basing its 787-9 fleet at LAX, which was all but announced a few years ago and should't surprise anyone.

CZ gets transit traffic through CAN. It's a good option for transiting from ASEAN countries to North America. That's also why things are getting so hard for CX.
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:49 am

tphuang wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
LAXintl wrote:

Sorry don't see AA on LAX-CAN. Its neither that large of a local market, nor does it have inherent big business demand.
AA needs to figure out how to make its LAX-PVG service profitable first and get its new PEK flight running.

Also regarding CZ, it now operates CAN-LAX 10x weekly, so you do have schedules to choose from.


Thanks. Didn't know CAN-LAX was now 10X times weekly. I've wondered why none of the US3 has taken a shot at CAN. I believe CZ operates SFO-CAN at least 10X weekly. Is it a situation more or less like the Korean Carriers and ICN, albeit with much much less demand? AA is upgauging LAX-PVG to a 787-9 soon and LAX-PEK goes 787-9 at the end of March. However this might be more of AA basing its 787-9 fleet at LAX, which was all but announced a few years ago and should't surprise anyone.

CZ gets transit traffic through CAN. It's a good option for transiting from ASEAN countries to North America. That's also why things are getting so hard for CX.


Haven't heard much about US-CAN-ASEAN connections as compared to US-HKG-ASEAN or US-NRT-ASEAN.
 
commavia
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:58 pm

Some interesting reporting from Aviation Week today in an article entitled China Southern Quizzes Managers About Leaving Skyteam ...

* Management has distributed a questionnaire to company leaders assessing the tradeoffs of leaving SkyTeam
* China Southern’s proposed codesharing with AA would lead to the carrier exceeding its permitted allowance of codeshares outside Skyteam, and the alliance has refused to allow China Southern more leeway in the way this allowance is calculated so as to allow additional codesharing with AA
* China Southern potentially leaving SkyTeam for oneworld would obviously have significant implications for both alliances in east Asia

Personal opinion: given the depth of cooperation proposed with AA and (longstanding) level of overlap with China Eastern and other SkyTeam members, it shouldn't be too surprising that China Southern is exploring its options, potentially including a move to oneworld. Personally, though, I'm skeptical of how severe the consequences of such a move would be for Cathay Pacific - I doubt it would have much, if any, impact on Cathay Pacific at all.

Interesting times ...
 
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chepos
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:06 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
tphuang wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:

Thanks. Didn't know CAN-LAX was now 10X times weekly. I've wondered why none of the US3 has taken a shot at CAN. I believe CZ operates SFO-CAN at least 10X weekly. Is it a situation more or less like the Korean Carriers and ICN, albeit with much much less demand? AA is upgauging LAX-PVG to a 787-9 soon and LAX-PEK goes 787-9 at the end of March. However this might be more of AA basing its 787-9 fleet at LAX, which was all but announced a few years ago and should't surprise anyone.

CZ gets transit traffic through CAN. It's a good option for transiting from ASEAN countries to North America. That's also why things are getting so hard for CX.


Haven't heard much about US-CAN-ASEAN connections as compared to US-HKG-ASEAN or US-NRT-ASEAN.


When looking at flights from LAX to DEL a while back CZ offered connectins to India (cheapest option). I am aware this is not an ASEAN destination but I was surprised when they came up as as a connection. Same when booking a flight to BKK, they offered competitive prices. EVA was cheaper so I went with them. Have a colleague whose family often travels to Manila they usually go CZ.
 
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vhtje
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:43 pm

commavia wrote:
Some interesting reporting from Aviation Week today in an article entitled China Southern Quizzes Managers About Leaving Skyteam ...

* Management has distributed a questionnaire to company leaders assessing the tradeoffs of leaving SkyTeam
* China Southern’s proposed codesharing with AA would lead to the carrier exceeding its permitted allowance of codeshares outside Skyteam, and the alliance has refused to allow China Southern more leeway in the way this allowance is calculated so as to allow additional codesharing with AA
* China Southern potentially leaving SkyTeam for oneworld would obviously have significant implications for both alliances in east Asia

Personal opinion: given the depth of cooperation proposed with AA and (longstanding) level of overlap with China Eastern and other SkyTeam members, it shouldn't be too surprising that China Southern is exploring its options, potentially including a move to oneworld. Personally, though, I'm skeptical of how severe the consequences of such a move would be for Cathay Pacific - I doubt it would have much, if any, impact on Cathay Pacific at all.

Interesting times ...


On the other hand, it was reported just six weeks ago that CZ are deepening their strategic cooperation with Skyteam partners AF/KLM, particularly in terms of freight. This would cover things like sharing ground handling facilities, combining freight networks, etc, and may "lead to an integrated commercial and operational cargo cooperation model [joint-venture] between Europe and China"

Source: https://theloadstar.co.uk/china-souther ... ork-links/

As you say, interesting times.
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:36 pm

I'd believe CZ would join OW only if I saw them announcing service to a OW hub that has no demand to CAN whatsoever - like for example, seeing DFW or DOH?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:57 pm

AA-CZ have had to halve planned codeshares due objections from Skyteam as CZ has exceeded the maximum number of allowed outside alliance codeshares. Revised reduced codesharing effective January 18th.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... share-plan
 
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janders
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:07 pm

Bad for AA. They wont be able to garner as much benefits from their $200 million investment in CZ.
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:11 pm

LAXintl wrote:
AA-CZ have had to halve planned codeshares due objections from Skyteam as CZ has exceeded the maximum number of allowed outside alliance codeshares. Revised reduced codesharing effective January 18th.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... share-plan


Sorry to be the bad guy here, LAX, but if the story is behind a paywall, can you please post the text in here or at least summarize some of the salient details (besides the high-level stuff, unless there isn't anything) so we can get more information?
 
jbs2886
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:12 pm

LAXintl wrote:
AA-CZ have had to halve planned codeshares due objections from Skyteam as CZ has exceeded the maximum number of allowed outside alliance codeshares. Revised reduced codesharing effective January 18th.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... share-plan


How AA-CZ not know this ahead of time? Lawyers doing due diligence should have caught that provision.

Edit: I wonder if SkyTeam is telling CZ to deal with it or leave as SkyTeam probably has the authority to grant a waiver.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:17 pm

I am sure they knew as its been mentioned in the news since late last year especially after CZ signed codeshare with BA also.

They possibly were hoping for a waiver from Skyteam, but alliance rules are alliance rules...
 
winginit
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:36 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
AA-CZ have had to halve planned codeshares due objections from Skyteam as CZ has exceeded the maximum number of allowed outside alliance codeshares. Revised reduced codesharing effective January 18th.

http://aviationweek.com/awincommercial/ ... share-plan


How AA-CZ not know this ahead of time? Lawyers doing due diligence should have caught that provision.

Edit: I wonder if SkyTeam is telling CZ to deal with it or leave as SkyTeam probably has the authority to grant a waiver.


Both parties knew of the rules ahead of time, but there were and still are many ways to broker an arrangement that either stays within the rules or eliminates them:

Staying within the rules:

Get an exception from SkyTeam (tried. failed. no surprise)

Structure an agreement where CZ scales back their non-Sky Team codeshare ASMs elsewhere to free them up for use with American (this clearly didn't pan out for one reason or another)

Scale back the codeshare agreement between CZ and AA (where we are today)

Eliminating the rules:

Negotiate CZ's (likely expensive and with strategic implications) exit from SkyTeam (still an option, but will take time if pursued)
 
aaway
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Re: AA - CZ Apply for Code-Sharing

Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:34 am

IrishAyes wrote:
Sorry to be the bad guy here, but if the story is behind a paywall, ....summarize some of the salient details (besides the high-level stuff, unless there isn't anything) so we can get more information?


American, China Southern cut codeshare routes set to begin Jan. 18

(fair use) - American Airlines and China Southern Airlines have almost halved the scale of codesharing planned under a cooperative relationship they established in 2017.

Beginning Jan. 18, the airlines will carry each other’s passengers on 16 routes, compared with 29 set out in a plan published in September. Details of the final codesharing arrangement have not been announced....

In the final deal, as before, China Southern and American will focus on codesharing from Beijing and Los Angeles. Two American routes from San Francisco also are covered in the arrangement....

....China Southern will be able to sell seats on American services linking Los Angeles with Houston; Chicago; Philadelphia; Charlotte, North Carolina; and Phoenix. Dallas and Phoenix flights from San Francisco also will be available to China Southern customers.

On the Chinese end, American will be able to sell tickets for China Southern flights linking Beijing with Guangzhou, Shenyang, Changsha, Dalian, Shenzhen, Harbin, Changchun, Chongqing and Nanning.

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