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chiawei
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Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 9:07 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:15 am

BGS91762 wrote:
jonair8 wrote:
I am very excited for this route for ONT. it does seem a bit odd that an airport gets nonstop service to TPE on a 77W, but has no service to ATL, JFK, HNL, or IAH. Hopefully this will be only the first of more exciting things to come. Good luck to CI, and I hope to be able to see them there in person soon. I do actually think they have a shot, and a niche market could be made here.

Same situation in SJC and nobody is surprised there.


BR should have added SJC instead of 3rd daily SFO.

SFO is just way too far and traffic on Friday night from SB to SFO is really pita.
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:04 am

Fascinating. ONT will have a nonstop flight to Asia even though it can't maintain a nonstop flight to New York.
 
9w748capt
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:00 am

Wow - nice add for ONT! I'm amazed that as often as we fly to SoCal, we have never ever used ONT. LAX or SNA always win out due to price (LAX) and/or convenience (SNA).

I would imagine CI has looked into this and determined that enough passengers flying them out of LAX live further inland. Of course they'd rather use ONT rather than deal with the traffic nightmare at LAX!
 
bzcat
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:18 am

I'm skeptical the flight can work without subsidy. And 77W is really too premium heavy for what will be 100% VFR O&D ex-ONT without any Delta feed or SkyTeam's LA based business flyers.

But I'm glad someone is trying it and ONT is willing to subsidize it. If yield ends up somewhat reasonable I think CI will quickly swap in the A359 and go daily so they don't have the crew staging issue.
 
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maortega15
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:37 am

And it seems like they're keeping JFK as well as there was talk sometime back of pulling out of JFK in favor of ONT.
 
NickLAX
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:43 am

With all due respect LAXIntl - you get the number of pax on current CI and BR flights with O&D from TPE are generally either San Gabriel Valley (SGV) or Orange County. Granted the 77W is a HUGE issue, if CI right size this to an A350 this may do very well. When I say SGV this isn't bargain basement travelers only, so the suspicion is high yield biz passengers aren't from SGV just other LA locals who aren't from Taiwan will pay for Biz? Hmmm, not the reality I see flying BR and CI often. This is 2hr of time reduced for lots in SGV. I wish CI good luck also and hope they right size the aircraft but this route isn't without a market.
 
raylee67
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:26 pm

CI can't even make JFK work... ONT is going to be low yielding. It should have sent a full-Y A350. Or if it really wants some premium cabin there, put may be 20 premium economy seat there. That's it. That may work.

A 77W with 40 business class and 62 premium econ seats in it is going to be disaster. The front section would be either near empty or filled with mileage redemption passengers.

There is definitely a market for TPE-ONT, just like many would argue there is a market for MNL-SAN. But this market would not work with a 77W with 40C+62W+256Y. It would need a 787 from Norwegian or a A332 from LEVEL or a 767 from AC Rouge to make it work (granted, an A332 and 767 do not have the range to fly this route, but such seat arrangement would work, not the current CI 77W seat arrangement)
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
BGS91762
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:06 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Fascinating. ONT will have a nonstop flight to Asia even though it can't maintain a nonstop flight to New York.

Ditto for SJC. Many flights to Europe and Asia with nothing to NY.
 
trex8
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:12 pm

ONT and JFK should probably be A359 and maybe it will be some point in the future but they dont have enough planes right now an d probably have spare 77W capacity with SFO gone already to A359 and FRA reportedly going in March. Heck they could probably do better by putting a 788 (not holding my breath at all) or A338 (maybe hold my breath a little) on these routes or on any new long haul ones. Or do a one stop via ANC with A333.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:19 pm

NickLAX wrote:
With all due respect LAXIntl - you get the number of pax on current CI and BR flights with O&D from TPE are generally either San Gabriel Valley (SGV) or Orange County. Granted the 77W is a HUGE issue, if CI right size this to an A350 this may do very well. When I say SGV this isn't bargain basement travelers only, so the suspicion is high yield biz passengers aren't from SGV just other LA locals who aren't from Taiwan will pay for Biz?


Yes certainly SGV has plenty of potential ethnic customers and yes for the right price the back of the plane from ONT can certainly be filled. However, this is hardly the business model for success for CI as a legacy carrier. It will need to drive plenty of high yielding fares out of ONT to offset the boatload of $400-600 net fares Y class tickets generate.

As EVA Air found out the hard way when they moved their North America corporate HQ to Monterrey Park to be closer to ethnic enclaves there are minimal corporate clients in the SGV and ones in other parts of LA were hardly willing to drive to Monterrey Park to visit EVA. Within only a couple years EVA moved back near LAX to El Segundo as per their then head of Americas - 80% of their LA basin corporate clients were in South Bay, West LA or San Fernando Valley (technology, media, medical, defense, finance industries) and were much more accessible from El Segundo than Monterrey Park.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BGS91762
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:23 pm

BGS91762 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Fascinating. ONT will have a nonstop flight to Asia even though it can't maintain a nonstop flight to New York.

Ditto for SJC. Many flights to Europe and Asia with nothing to NY.

Correction, JetBlue does have a flight to JFK but hardly any East Coast flying other than that. However, SjC still manages to support several intercontinental flights.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:33 pm

BGS91762 wrote:
BGS91762 wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
Fascinating. ONT will have a nonstop flight to Asia even though it can't maintain a nonstop flight to New York.

Ditto for SJC. Many flights to Europe and Asia with nothing to NY.

Correction, JetBlue does have a flight to JFK but hardly any East Coast flying other than that. However, SjC still manages to support several intercontinental flights.


We also have B6 to BOS, AS and UA to EWR, WN to BWI, AA to CLT, DL and F9 to ATL, and WN to MCO, but yes, SJC does need more transcons.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B772/E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
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mercure1
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:06 pm

This sounds like CI starting service to Maastricht next to AMS and Hahn in addition to Frankfurt.
Could be like a disaster in the making especially chasing after ethnic crowds on 14-hour long flight.
mercure f-wtcc
 
continental004
Posts: 449
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:04 pm

LAXintl wrote:
NickLAX wrote:
With all due respect LAXIntl - you get the number of pax on current CI and BR flights with O&D from TPE are generally either San Gabriel Valley (SGV) or Orange County. Granted the 77W is a HUGE issue, if CI right size this to an A350 this may do very well. When I say SGV this isn't bargain basement travelers only, so the suspicion is high yield biz passengers aren't from SGV just other LA locals who aren't from Taiwan will pay for Biz?


Yes certainly SGV has plenty of potential ethnic customers and yes for the right price the back of the plane from ONT can certainly be filled. However, this is hardly the business model for success for CI as a legacy carrier. It will need to drive plenty of high yielding fares out of ONT to offset the boatload of $400-600 net fares Y class tickets generate.

As EVA Air found out the hard way when they moved their North America corporate HQ to Monterrey Park to be closer to ethnic enclaves there are minimal corporate clients in the SGV and ones in other parts of LA were hardly willing to drive to Monterrey Park to visit EVA. Within only a couple years EVA moved back near LAX to El Segundo as per their then head of Americas - 80% of their LA basin corporate clients were in South Bay, West LA or San Fernando Valley (technology, media, medical, defense, finance industries) and were much more accessible from El Segundo than Monterrey Park.



Do corporate travelers not buy tickets online? The clients wouldn’t drive out to Monterey Park? Lazy, just time your drive right to avoid traffic.
 
metroline2006
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:27 pm

You can put a vast amount of cargo into the belly of a 77W maybe a side deal with UPS?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:29 pm

continental004 wrote:
Do corporate travelers not buy tickets online? The clients wouldn’t drive out to Monterey Park? Lazy, just time your drive right to avoid traffic.


Its about meeting, interacting, anticipating needs of corporate accounts. Being isolated an hour+ away from them was not exactly best use of BR sales rep time or being accessible to clients especially when your competitors have offices minutes away from these clients.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
strfyr51
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:12 pm

RTWin10 wrote:
Interesting how the press release failed to mention the first year incentive...

All that said, with a 77W, that's a lot of cargo that could also be moved through ONT. It will be interesting to see how this shapes up...


Isn't ONT also a UPS hub?? That could be major league Hi level freight both ways. And?? With a belly full of revenue freight, The passengers are PURE PROFIT !
 
BGS91762
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:52 pm

Never ceases to amaze me how West LA centric some of the people on here are. Nobody is arguing that people from the western areas probably would not trek out to ONT, but greater LA is so huge and diverse that the businesses in the SGV/OC and IE of which there are thousands would probably flock to this flight. Why do people on here seem to find it so difficult to believe that the LA area can have another international airport that can supplement LAX....
 
airzona11
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:28 pm

Very cool to see this new add. LA is such a massive city, is not too crazy to think a few hundred people a week cant fill these flights.
 
many321
Posts: 323
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:59 pm

BGS91762 wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how West LA centric some of the people on here are. Nobody is arguing that people from the western areas probably would not trek out to ONT, but greater LA is so huge and diverse that the businesses in the SGV/OC and IE of which there are thousands would probably flock to this flight. Why do people on here seem to find it so difficult to believe that the LA area can have another international airport that can supplement LAX....


Thank you! I live in the middle of the community (Chino Hills/Diamond Bar/ Walnut area) in which this route will serve. I see it being a success since many mention how crazy it is getting to LAX because how packed the 10, 60, 605, and 105 freeways get during rush hour when they have an airport far nearer to their homes that they could fly out from. Though, hey let's not listen to the people who actually live in the area.
 
continental004
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:16 am

BGS91762 wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how West LA centric some of the people on here are. Nobody is arguing that people from the western areas probably would not trek out to ONT, but greater LA is so huge and diverse that the businesses in the SGV/OC and IE of which there are thousands would probably flock to this flight. Why do people on here seem to find it so difficult to believe that the LA area can have another international airport that can supplement LAX....


Ding ding ding! Finally somebody with some sense!
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:07 am

BGS91762 wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how West LA centric some of the people on here are. Nobody is arguing that people from the western areas probably would not trek out to ONT, but greater LA is so huge and diverse that the businesses in the SGV/OC and IE of which there are thousands would probably flock to this flight. Why do people on here seem to find it so difficult to believe that the LA area can have another international airport that can supplement LAX....


If SNA were able to support overseas fights, I bet it would have a few Europe and Asia flights, akin to what SJC has.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:13 am

BGS91762 wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how West LA centric some of the people on here are. Nobody is arguing that people from the western areas probably would not trek out to ONT, but greater LA is so huge and diverse that the businesses in the SGV/OC and IE of which there are thousands would probably flock to this flight. Why do people on here seem to find it so difficult to believe that the LA area can have another international airport that can supplement LAX....


Being from SJC, I understand your reasoning. However, the airport wouldn't have had so many problems in the last few years if they were still getting a bunch a traffic. I really hope the flight does well, and that ONT gets more service. It really deserves it.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B772/E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
coolfish1103
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:40 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
If SNA were able to support overseas fights, I bet it would have a few Europe and Asia flights, akin to what SJC has.


If SNA is able to expand then the obvious choice would be to start a service to SNA, but that's not the case.

In any case CI should have just kept LAX as is and not reduce it. I mean the service at ONT is going to take pax away from LAX, but not just their pax, everyone will suffer.

Let's hope this flight can at least survive the initial year of subsidies. Sometimes even subsidies won't make the flight viable.
 
flySFO
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:37 am

Will this require any modifications to CBP or the apron and gate arrangements at ONT? Where to the Mexico flights usually park at ONT?
 
jonair8
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:46 am

flySFO wrote:
Will this require any modifications to CBP or the apron and gate arrangements at ONT? Where to the Mexico flights usually park at ONT?


The Mexico flights arrive into a building with FIS capability down by the old Terminal 1. The plane is then moved to Terminal 2 for boarding and departure. (AM uses gate 204 and Y4 uses gate 207.) CI's 777 would potentially carry too many people for them to use the current building efficiently, plus I don't believe the tarmac space at the gates where AM and Y4 arrive is large enough. ONT's solution is to convert the recently unused portion of Terminal 2 to be able to accommodate the 77W's needs for FIS. It's something that came to mind and kind of started doing when they had the Dynamic Air flights.
 
FSDan
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:14 pm

I wonder how much of a factor cargo will be on this route? Inbound goods from Taiwan that are being shipped inland would probably be better accommodated via ONT.
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trex8
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:43 pm

coolfish1103 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
If SNA were able to support overseas fights, I bet it would have a few Europe and Asia flights, akin to what SJC has.


If SNA is able to expand then the obvious choice would be to start a service to SNA, but that's not the case.

In any case CI should have just kept LAX as is and not reduce it. I mean the service at ONT is going to take pax away from LAX, but not just their pax, everyone will suffer.

Let's hope this flight can at least survive the initial year of subsidies. Sometimes even subsidies won't make the flight viable.

SNAs runway is half the length of the longest at ONT, never going to support widebodies for long haul. SANs runway is 50% longer than SNAs and people talk about takeoff issues there.
Isnt the whole point that CI wants the the other LAX carriers to suffer (except maybe their Skyteam partners) but the more it hits BR the better as far as CI sees it.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:05 pm

BGS91762 wrote:
Never ceases to amaze me how West LA centric some of the people on here are.


Cant ignore the fact that bulk of the wealth and corporate base of Los Angeles region is in the Western half of the region, from Coastal OC up the coast into LA County. Airlines see this and go where the money is for their flying.

As posted in another recent thread here is some traveler demographic data from 4 SoCal airport per 2015 report.

LAX
Average household income: $96,423
Average age: 45
Male/Female: 55/45
Adult college grad or more: 61%
Percent Business Travel: 36%
Residence by county: LA 61%, Orange 17%, San Bernardino 7%, Riverside 6%, Ventura 5%, Other 4%
Percent of catchment area traveled by air last 12-mos: 38%
Top travel dest: Bay Area, LAS, NYC, Far East, Hawaii

ONT
Average household income: $72,621
Average age: 45
Male/Female: 47/53
Adult college grad or more: 39%
Percent Business Travel: 22%
Residence by county: San Bernardino 36%, LA 25%, Riverside 25%, Orange 10%, Other 4%
Percent of catchment area traveled by air last 12-mos: 16%
Top travel dest: LAS, PHX, Utah, Colorado, DC and Orlando

SNA
Average household income: $110,886
Average age: 47
Male/Female: 51/49
Adult college grad or more: 78%
Percent Business Travel: 39%
Residence by county: OC 62%, LA 19%, Riverside 8% San Bernardino 5%, San Diego 4%, other 2%
Percent of catchment area traveled by air last 12-mos: 46%
Top travel dest: Bay Area, LAS, PHX, Colorado, DC, Hawaii

SAN
Average household income: $90,947
Average age: 44
Male/Female: 49/51
Adult college grad or more: 56%
Percent Business Travel: 29%
Residence by county: Missing
Percent of catchment area traveled by air last 12-mos: 37%
Top travel dest: LAS, PHX, Bay Area, NYC, DC



Another way to look at the disparity is to compare per capita income for each airports city.

Per 2015 census (source city-data.com)

ONT - $19,788
LGB - $28,205
LAX - $30,136 (only City of LA), $44,651 (blended rate El Segundo-Inglewood-LA-Marina del Rey)
BUR - $37,650
SNA - $53,857 (blended rate Costa Mesa-Irvine-Newport Beach)

Obviously, per-capita income has a correlation with spending power and the propensity of travel by consumers.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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LAXintl
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:11 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
If SNA were able to support overseas fights, I bet it would have a few Europe and Asia flights, akin to what SJC has.


:checkmark: Agreed SNA/OC has the demographics and best opportunity of LA basin community airports to support such flying, but alas the airport cant handle it. Suppose too bad El Toro never came to fruition.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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mariner
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:38 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Obviously, per-capita income has a correlation with spending power and the propensity of travel by consumers.


Air travel is only for the well-to-do?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
FX1816
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:41 pm

jonair8 wrote:
flySFO wrote:
Will this require any modifications to CBP or the apron and gate arrangements at ONT? Where to the Mexico flights usually park at ONT?


The Mexico flights arrive into a building with FIS capability down by the old Terminal 1. The plane is then moved to Terminal 2 for boarding and departure. (AM uses gate 204 and Y4 uses gate 207.) CI's 777 would potentially carry too many people for them to use the current building efficiently, plus I don't believe the tarmac space at the gates where AM and Y4 arrive is large enough. ONT's solution is to convert the recently unused portion of Terminal 2 to be able to accommodate the 77W's needs for FIS. It's something that came to mind and kind of started doing when they had the Dynamic Air flights.


Just a quick correction, VOI uses Gate 204 (MMLO) and Gate 207 (MMGL). AMX uses Gate 209. What we hear at work, I'm an ATC at ONT, is that Terminal 2 will get modified to handle the CAL flight. It would most likely be Gate 212. It will be interesting with Frontier using Gates 210-211.

FX1816
 
FX1816
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:42 pm

mariner wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Obviously, per-capita income has a correlation with spending power and the propensity of travel by consumers.


Air travel is only for the well-to-do?

mariner


In the world of LAX can/will be the ONLY option in SoCal.
 
masgniw
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:47 pm

Very interested to see how this goes. Whether or not ONT can support Asia-direct traffic has been a hot button issue in SoCal - so we finally get the answer we've been speculating about!
 
jetero
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:47 pm

FX1816 wrote:
mariner wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
Obviously, per-capita income has a correlation with spending power and the propensity of travel by consumers.


Air travel is only for the well-to-do?

mariner


In the world of LAX can/will be the ONLY option in SoCal.


People do realize that is a result of service decisions made by airlines, not LAWA, right?
 
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mercure1
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:52 pm

mariner wrote:
Air travel is only for the well-to-do?


At least in Europe (and I presume in US) there is a direct relationship between income and travel habits. The more disposable income the more often people tend to travel. Things like rise of LCCs have brought travel to more people in and allow more things like weekend breaks but at the end its still a matter of income earning by people.
mercure f-wtcc
 
FX1816
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:54 pm

jetero wrote:
FX1816 wrote:
mariner wrote:

Air travel is only for the well-to-do?

mariner


In the world of LAX can/will be the ONLY option in SoCal.


People do realize that is a result of service decisions made by airlines, not LAWA, right?


Try again, I said LAX not LAWA. I'm not talking about ANY airport operating entity.
 
BGS91762
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Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:28 pm

mercure1 wrote:
mariner wrote:
Air travel is only for the well-to-do?


At least in Europe (and I presume in US) there is a direct relationship between income and travel habits. The more disposable income the more often people tend to travel. Things like rise of LCCs have brought travel to more people in and allow more things like weekend breaks but at the end its still a matter of income earning by people.

Nobody is disputing that LAX is always going to be the major airport in the area and in fact the world. We are all lucky to live in an area with an airport that connects to almost the entire world nonstop. Also, it's true that the majority of the income is along the coast. However, there are thousands of inland residents that are forced to go to LAX and drive across the entire urban area. If at least some of these people have an option closer to home it seems to be a win. ONT will never be an LAX and never intends to be. However, I think it has a great niche to fill in the fastest growing area in greater LA.
 
jonair8
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:10 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:34 pm

FX1816 wrote:
jonair8 wrote:
flySFO wrote:
Will this require any modifications to CBP or the apron and gate arrangements at ONT? Where to the Mexico flights usually park at ONT?


The Mexico flights arrive into a building with FIS capability down by the old Terminal 1. The plane is then moved to Terminal 2 for boarding and departure. (AM uses gate 204 and Y4 uses gate 207.) CI's 777 would potentially carry too many people for them to use the current building efficiently, plus I don't believe the tarmac space at the gates where AM and Y4 arrive is large enough. ONT's solution is to convert the recently unused portion of Terminal 2 to be able to accommodate the 77W's needs for FIS. It's something that came to mind and kind of started doing when they had the Dynamic Air flights.


Just a quick correction, VOI uses Gate 204 (MMLO) and Gate 207 (MMGL). AMX uses Gate 209. What we hear at work, I'm an ATC at ONT, is that Terminal 2 will get modified to handle the CAL flight. It would most likely be Gate 212. It will be interesting with Frontier using Gates 210-211.

FX1816


Thanks for the correction. Thats good insight on the operations of Terminal 2. Good to hear that all of the gates will be in use once again. This will definitely be a treat for you to have a 777 coming into ONT for scheduled passenger ops.
 
jetero
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:59 pm

FX1816 wrote:
jetero wrote:
FX1816 wrote:

In the world of LAX can/will be the ONLY option in SoCal.


People do realize that is a result of service decisions made by airlines, not LAWA, right?


Try again, I said LAX not LAWA. I'm not talking about ANY airport operating entity.


I guess I don’t understand what you’re talking about then.
 
coolfish1103
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:36 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 pm

trex8 wrote:
SNAs runway is half the length of the longest at ONT, never going to support widebodies for long haul. SANs runway is 50% longer than SNAs and people talk about takeoff issues there.
Isnt the whole point that CI wants the the other LAX carriers to suffer (except maybe their Skyteam partners) but the more it hits BR the better as far as CI sees it.


Yeah I know SNA cannot handle it, that's why I said if it "can expand." Obviously that's not the case.

LAXintl wrote:
Obviously, per-capita income has a correlation with spending power and the propensity of travel by consumers.


This data doesn't tell us much. It's all domestic where you have options.

When one is offered a non-stop flight from various airlines in LAX for $49 and a one-stop flight from ONT for $169 just to get to SFO (or take the direct one from UA for $219), it's obvious one will not choose ONT. The time it saves from the non-stop alone cuts down the driving time. Also, by hourly wages, the opportunity cost to take the ONT flight means you will need to earn an extra $120. If the traffic is 2 hours, that's $60/hour. How many people earn that much to not take the LAX flight?

In scenarios like these, is the more wealthy people using LAX or ONT? Hard to say.

Now, when one wants to take an international flight using non-stop, or minimizing stops, one has to choose LAX. No one is going to drive 3 hours down to SAN or 4 hours up to LAS from the Inland Empire. I mean, yes we do know that Asians are price sensitive, but not all of them always value money over time.

At the right hours, I can drive from Rancho Cucamonga (north of 210) to LAX within 1 hour going from 210 > 605 > 105 to take a domestic flight. LAX isn't always that bad for a domestic flight if you time it right. At any kind of hour, I pretty much have to take local to Ontario Airport cause freeway makes no sense, and that would take 20-30 minutes with all those traffic lights on Archibald. Even if I avoid them by going into small streets, I would still need 20 minutes. With the price cap at ONT being so much higher than LAX and LAWA not helping out the past couple years, no wonder no one is taking flights from ONT.

The catch for the TPE-ONT flight is:

1. For those Taiwanese who wants to avoid LAX, so their destination is TPE.
2. For those VIPs who want to avoid LAX, since even LAX does not have a direct flight for them.
3. For price sensitive customers who is willing to take a transit flight even though they have a direct options available at LAX (pax with destinations in Hong Kong, China, Singapore, South Korea and Japan etc.).
4. For those who really find ONT is the more convenient airport for them going transpacific.

77W may be too big. If TPE-ONT v.v. can be proven to be sustainable without affecting the operations at TPE-LAX v.v. (as in CI does not need to reduce LAX to 10 weekly or less to keep ONT alive), I can see ONT going 359 4 weekly to daily by itself on a night departure flight. In that case the crew rotation will be separated and LAX will be back to it's own rotation while ONT has it's own rotation.
 
bzcat
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:37 pm

FSDan wrote:
I wonder how much of a factor cargo will be on this route? Inbound goods from Taiwan that are being shipped inland would probably be better accommodated via ONT.


Cargo will not be a factor. ONT has no infrastructure for air cargo. No bonded warehouse, no custom brokers, no freight consolidators, no air cargo logistic handlers. Those business are all located near LAX.

UPS can setup shop in ONT because it acts as its own warehouse, customer broker, consolidator, and logistic. UPS also ships packages and letters, not bulk cargo. Inbound shipments on pallets from Taiwan that lands at ONT (e.g. some sort of electronics most likely) will have to be trucked to LAX area to the bonded warehouse of custom brokers and logistic handlers so basically no one will be willing to ship anything on the ONT flights. And the reverse is also true - outbound shipments to TPE arrives in the belly cargo from another domestic flight then held somewhere near a warehouse near LAX by the cargo consolidator. Trucking this to ONT when CI has both cargo and passenger belly cargo from LAX is basically crazy talk.
Last edited by bzcat on Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1841
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:39 pm

It's no crazier than IND-CDG it's worth a try
 
COSPN
Posts: 1841
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:39 pm

It's no crazier than IND-CDG it's worth a try
 
coolfish1103
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:36 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:26 pm

The purple area in this map the potential Asian coverage that ONT may serve. Those who are in the corners of the purple area should take minimum around 1 hour just to get to LAX, and then stuck in the loop of LAX (off the freeway on Sepulveda to leaving) for approximately 30 minutes minimum. The farther to the east, the longer it takes. Technically it would be no brainier for those who are East of the 57/55 and North of 91 to take ONT. Those who are West and South of it but who are also in the purple area, may have to choose depending on traffic hours.

The blue and yellow pins are where the Taiwanese mainly resides. Some Cantonese and Chinese are there as well. I am sure I left out some areas but it gives you an idea.

Blue means the market is potentially going to choose ONT if Taiwan is their final destination. Yellow means the market should go to LAX as ONT is not convenient to them as well.

VIPs are not specifically pinned but some fall in the purple area such as Corona and Ontario. Obviously areas such as Garden Grove are out of reach and they will head to LAX no matter what.

Those who are Star Alliance in the OC/Irvine area may choose SFO as the gateway it's not much more difficult for them to fly out of SNA should they wish to do so.

http://goo.gl/SwU44b

Image
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6415
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:09 pm

COSPN wrote:
It's no crazier than IND-CDG it's worth a try


I'm not clear why IND-CDG is "crazy". IND is a populated market with a reasonable amount of business. While I agree that ONT-TPE at first seems unorthodox, it's not clear it's going to fail.

More importantly, I think that the route planners and management of DL and CI are a lot smarter at this stuff that I am, so I wouldn't think their ideas are crazier. I'm assuming they did their homework.
 
trex8
Posts: 5626
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:10 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
COSPN wrote:
It's no crazier than IND-CDG it's worth a try


I'm not clear why IND-CDG is "crazy". IND is a populated market with a reasonable amount of business. While I agree that ONT-TPE at first seems unorthodox, it's not clear it's going to fail.

More importantly, I think that the route planners and management of DL and CI are a lot smarter at this stuff that I am, so I wouldn't think their ideas are crazier. I'm assuming they did their homework.

Actually now that CFM has a factory in West Lafayette for the LEAP, maybe IND-CDG isnt crazy at all! Some airline could maybe do IND- EMA-CDG then the Rolls guys in IND dont have to go to ORD to get back to HQ in the UK!
 
FX1816
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:02 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:22 pm

jetero wrote:
FX1816 wrote:
jetero wrote:

People do realize that is a result of service decisions made by airlines, not LAWA, right?


Try again, I said LAX not LAWA. I'm not talking about ANY airport operating entity.


I guess I don’t understand what you’re talking about then.


I meant LAX Fan boys, sorry its been a long day for me and my family with the issues in Las Vegas.
 
FX1816
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:02 am

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:24 pm

jonair8 wrote:
FX1816 wrote:
jonair8 wrote:

The Mexico flights arrive into a building with FIS capability down by the old Terminal 1. The plane is then moved to Terminal 2 for boarding and departure. (AM uses gate 204 and Y4 uses gate 207.) CI's 777 would potentially carry too many people for them to use the current building efficiently, plus I don't believe the tarmac space at the gates where AM and Y4 arrive is large enough. ONT's solution is to convert the recently unused portion of Terminal 2 to be able to accommodate the 77W's needs for FIS. It's something that came to mind and kind of started doing when they had the Dynamic Air flights.


Just a quick correction, VOI uses Gate 204 (MMLO) and Gate 207 (MMGL). AMX uses Gate 209. What we hear at work, I'm an ATC at ONT, is that Terminal 2 will get modified to handle the CAL flight. It would most likely be Gate 212. It will be interesting with Frontier using Gates 210-211.

FX1816


Thanks for the correction. Thats good insight on the operations of Terminal 2. Good to hear that all of the gates will be in use once again. This will definitely be a treat for you to have a 777 coming into ONT for scheduled passenger ops.


Yeah it is getting better over here, baby steps, passenger flight wise. Cargo is really starting to ramp up with UPS/FedEx and the whole Prime Air operation. We have also heard that SWA is requesting to have Terminal 4 all to themselves, 14 gates. Regarding the CAL 77W though, when they park at Gate 212 they will pull it in at an angle with the nose slightly pointed to the Terminal so as not to have the tail hang out over TWY N1.
 
User avatar
FA9295
Posts: 1770
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:44 pm

Re: China Airlines announces TPE-ONT service

Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:06 pm

KLMatSJC wrote:
BGS91762 wrote:
BGS91762 wrote:
Ditto for SJC. Many flights to Europe and Asia with nothing to NY.

Correction, JetBlue does have a flight to JFK but hardly any East Coast flying other than that. However, SjC still manages to support several intercontinental flights.


We also have B6 to BOS, AS and UA to EWR, WN to BWI, AA to CLT, DL and F9 to ATL, and WN to MCO, but yes, SJC does need more transcons.


B6 to BOS is only summer seasonal, though...
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