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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:36 pm

Some photos of the cabin are starting to emerge

Image

Image

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/qan ... eam-cabin/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:53 pm

Alan Joyce interview on Today this morning

http://travel.nine.com.au/2017/10/17/08 ... dreamliner
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:57 pm

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
So happy that Seattle is being mentioned as a possible QF port... my dream destination from Australia!
As for -ZNA's name, I believe that someone has confirmed somewhere else on the web that it will be 'Great Southern Land'... I still prefer 'Dreamtime' however for the initial delivery. 'Quokka' will definitely be one the first four (due to the first four flying through Perth) while 'Great Barrier Reef' is expected to be #5, and the first to be based in Brisbane.
I will be at the arrival of -ZNA on Friday and plan to stay Thursday night at the Rydges (upper floors, planespotters package) ... Anyone else have similar plans?
Cheers,
Bunumuring



I'm not sure how I feel about a 789 called "Quokka". As a native Perthling, I love the marketing opportunities that can come with the happiest animal in the world, from a beautiful holiday island, being associated with pitching non-stop flights to the British. However, it's a little "cute" compared the others ie Great Southern Land, Great Barrier Reef and Dreamtime. Especially when the route and plane itself are being called a game-changer.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:57 pm

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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:00 am

Cabin Shots of VH-ZNA

Business Class

Image

Image

Premium Economy

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Economy

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https://twitter.com/airwayslive/status/ ... 0685304832
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:04 am

Video on why Great Southern Land was the first name chosen

https://www.facebook.com/Qantas/videos/ ... 780717686/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:18 am

Video of naming ceremony

https://www.facebook.com/Airlinehubbuzz ... 952197572/

Short interview with QF's Chief technical pilot on Sunrise

https://www.facebook.com/7NewsMelbourne ... 939334301/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:43 am

Looks pretty sleek, I have to say I really appreciate the colour of the economy seats
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:04 am

Another video, this time Captain Alex Passerini shows you through the cabin

https://www.facebook.com/Qantas/videos/ ... 117267686/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:12 am

PER-CDG wont happen until 2020, QF now has daily rights to CDG which wasn't the case previously

SYD could be the next base, that is when more 787's are ordered

https://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-fly- ... until-2020
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:21 am

Qantas Press Release

Confirms flyover over Sydney Harbour (still dependent on ATC and weather)

Still stating that all non ER 744's will be retired next year

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... hern-land/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:42 am

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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:29 am

Is OEB the only 744 remaining in the old 4 class configuration? When is it due for retirement? I just booked SYD-JNB return next June/July, and after flying her JFK-LAX this year I am praying to the gods I don't get her again - she is in dire need of a new cabin product. I know they often use this bird on the route, but will this aircraft be gone by mid next year?
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:40 am

ben175 wrote:
Is OEB the only 744 remaining in the old 4 class configuration? When is it due for retirement? I just booked SYD-JNB return next June/July, and after flying her JFK-LAX this year I am praying to the gods I don't get her again - she is in dire need of a new cabin product. I know they often use this bird on the route, but will this aircraft be gone by mid next year?


As far as I know OEB will retired after the round the world charter it does in May next year, so should be retired around June
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Re: Australian AvSwsiiation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:55 am

eamondzhang wrote:
UKtoOzFlyer wrote:
planemanofnz wrote:
Joyce said in Seattle that "Qantas was also keen on flying directly from the eastern states to Cape Town and Rio de Janeiro in the future."

- Why GIG and not GRU?

- Can CPT not already be reached?

Cheers,

C.


If CASA allowed extended ETOPS and AJ bought the 350-1000, then yes, CPT is reachable.

They don't need A350-1000 to do CPT, A359 and B789 is more than enough for the job. Heck even A332 if they wanted to (albert from PER only). The issue is sorely on ETOPS.

Michael


CASA has allowed, at least in theory, extended EDTO (ETOPS is no longer the official term) and polar operations for twins for about two years. There is nothing but a certification process and some paperwork standing in the way of an Australian carrier operating suitable twins on optimal routes to South Africa or South America.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:25 am

A few more pics onboard VH-ZNA

Business Class entertainment

Image

Middle section of business class

Image

Image

Power/usb points

Image

Premium economy seats

Image

Image

Leg room seems a bit tight though

Image

Foot rest

Image

Image

Image

In flight entertainment

Image

Economy seat

Image

Storage/Ipad dock

Image

Image

Image

https://www.facebook.com/AusBT/photos/p ... =3&theater
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:26 am

Close up of business class

Image

Image

Business class new drink and snack bar area

Image

https://twitter.com/AusBT/status/920050752290045952
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:48 am

Cabin looks great - is there a bar/snack station for economy? Any difference is the bathroom? Or Boeing standard.

That W seat pitch does look tight, be interesting to sit in it and see.

Amazing to see how far PTVs have come from the old postcard sizes!

Looking forward to a trip report with the new crockery and glassware also, and any other soft product changes - bedding, lighting etc.
Last edited by smi0006 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:48 am

Premium economy looks very tight. Not sure how someone at the window seat is expected to get out of their seat when the people in front are reclined.

I watched the walk through of the cabin. No curtains around the lavatories down the back in economy, so the light will spread through the cabin. The mid section lavatories are situated in a way that the whole cabin will watch you go in and go out. No privacy at all.


On the face of it, looks like a poor product. Its a shame, i was looking forward to trying it out.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:51 am

QF41 wrote:
Premium economy looks very tight. Not sure how someone at the window seat is expected to get out of their seat when the people in front are reclined.

I watched the walk through of the cabin. No curtains around the lavatories down the back in economy, so the light will spread through the cabin. The mid section lavatories are situated in a way that the whole cabin will watch you go in and go out. No privacy at all.


On the face of it, looks like a poor product. Its a shame, i was looking forward to trying it out.


I suppose to be fair premium economy is that premium economy - no asile acess, nor free egress when reclined. Does any premium economy offer that?

I think curtains around bathrooms is a small detail missed but way fixed. And privacy for entering a loo? Does that matter? Would never judge a product on that. Unless you plan on joining the mile high club.

W pitch looks tight but hardly describe the whole aircraft as a poor product.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:56 am

smi0006 wrote:
Cabin looks great - is there a bar/snack station for economy? Any difference is the bathroom? Or Boeing standard.

That W seat pitch does look tight, be interesting to sit in it and see.

Amazing to see how far PTVs have come from the old postcard sizes!

Looking forward to a trip report with the new crockery and glassware also, and any other soft product changes - bedding, lighting etc.


Yes there is a self service snack bar for economy as well though no pictures of it yet
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:43 am

SQ has begun A350 service to BNE today

Image

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http://australianaviation.com.au/2017/1 ... -brisbane/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:01 am

Alan Joyce has said the following on PER-LHR bookings

The forward bookings for the Perth to London flight, which starts in March, were “really strong”.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busines ... 60e3cd851f
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:06 am

As excited as I am the media hype train (plane) has become ridiculous, 7 News Melbourne has now had a story on it for 4 nights running and its not even in the country! Qantas sure know how to draw the media in!
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:33 am

log0008 wrote:
As excited as I am the media hype train (plane) has become ridiculous, 7 News Melbourne has now had a story on it for 4 nights running and its not even in the country! Qantas sure know how to draw the media in!


Free business class seats along with hotels and booze provides lots of favourable coverage.
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Re: Australian AvSwsiiation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:30 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
UKtoOzFlyer wrote:

If CASA allowed extended ETOPS and AJ bought the 350-1000, then yes, CPT is reachable.

They don't need A350-1000 to do CPT, A359 and B789 is more than enough for the job. Heck even A332 if they wanted to (albert from PER only). The issue is sorely on ETOPS.

Michael


CASA has allowed, at least in theory, extended EDTO (ETOPS is no longer the official term) and polar operations for twins for about two years. There is nothing but a certification process and some paperwork standing in the way of an Australian carrier operating suitable twins on optimal routes to South Africa or South America.

You know those longer ETOPS takes time don't you? It's not like you can get ETOPS-370 out of the factory. It took NZ 3-4 years before getting ETOPS-330 on 77W, not to mention the far more conservative CASA. And even if they stick with 180 on SYD-CPT, 15.5 hour wouldn't be difficult on a A359.

Also polar flights to the south of S60° on a twin is not limited by CASA but Antarctia treaty.

Michael
 
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Re: Australian AvSwsiiation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:09 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
They don't need A350-1000 to do CPT, A359 and B789 is more than enough for the job. Heck even A332 if they wanted to (albert from PER only). The issue is sorely on ETOPS.

Michael


CASA has allowed, at least in theory, extended EDTO (ETOPS is no longer the official term) and polar operations for twins for about two years. There is nothing but a certification process and some paperwork standing in the way of an Australian carrier operating suitable twins on optimal routes to South Africa or South America.

You know those longer ETOPS takes time don't you? It's not like you can get ETOPS-370 out of the factory. It took NZ 3-4 years before getting ETOPS-330 on 77W, not to mention the far more conservative CASA. And even if they stick with 180 on SYD-CPT, 15.5 hour wouldn't be difficult on a A359.

Also polar flights to the south of S60° on a twin is not limited by CASA but Antarctia treaty.

Michael

CASA's EDTO (in spite of their general slowness to move with the times in many other areas, the Australian rules contain no such beast as ETOPS) rules allow extension from 180 up to 240 minutes if the airframe-engine combination is already operating on EDTO up to 180 minutes, and further extension beyond 240 minutes if the airframe-engine combination has been operating either under EDTO for 24 months, or under EDTO beyond 180 minutes up to 240 minutes for 12 months. Have a look at the following documents for more detail of what is involved.

CAO 82.0
CAAP 82-1

As for sub-60°S, CASA definitely puts limitations and requirements on that, which like EDTO rules apply to aircraft with more than two engines as well. Again the same documents refer.

I've never heard of twin-engine flights being an issue under the Antarctic Treaty, and there have definitely been twin engine flights to Antarctica; could you please point us in the direction of a reference for what you are referring to?

V/F
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:37 pm

Another video, this one from one of the QF pilots doing a walk around the outside of the aircraft

https://www.facebook.com/Qantas/videos/ ... 625837686/
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Re: Australian AvSwsiiation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:40 pm

DeltaB717 wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
UKtoOzFlyer wrote:

If CASA allowed extended ETOPS and AJ bought the 350-1000, then yes, CPT is reachable.

They don't need A350-1000 to do CPT, A359 and B789 is more than enough for the job. Heck even A332 if they wanted to (albert from PER only). The issue is sorely on ETOPS.

Michael


CASA has allowed, at least in theory, extended EDTO (ETOPS is no longer the official term) and polar operations for twins for about two years. There is nothing but a certification process and some paperwork standing in the way of an Australian carrier operating suitable twins on optimal routes to South Africa or South America.


Ok I know the ETDO situation BUT I have heard NOTHING about a change in polar operations. do you have a source, please?

Gemuser
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:51 pm

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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:09 pm

Looking at those photos I can't help but think that the W of today looks like the J of the 1970s when it was first introduced, and the J of today looks like the F of some years ago. Everyone talks about how F has disappeared from most carriers, but they don't look back far enough to see that F has just morphed into something else and J has taken its place in all but name.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:02 am

NZ321 wrote:
SEA makes a huge amount of sense to me given the growth in this city and the corporate travel needs out of SEA. An increasing number of airlines in Europe and Asia see reason to serve both SEA and YVR why not QF? All the more so because of their long cooperation with AS. Should be top of the list from my point of view. Can fly direct to SYD, unlike ORD. The question seems to be whats does ORD give QF over and above DFW and JFK? Or perhaps the strategy is to axe JFK once ORD is commenced?Thoughts?


ORD is a large 1 hub and the 3rd largest city & metro area in the US. Not to mention a great connecting point (DFW primarily connects OZ to FL and DC). ORD provides the Midwest, northeast, eastern Canada, and the British Isles.

The posters on this forum have a bias against ORD, push DFW vs. IAH, love DL, want a cage match between Airbus and Boeing, think any airport with over 1M passengers per year should have GRI, ICN, LHR, and NRT nonstops, and feel the world is screwing DTW.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:21 am

QF7879 has arrived in Honolulu.

On another note, first post in many, many years, but have been enjoying reading the Australian Aviation Threads over the last few months.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:44 am

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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:01 am

CASA's EDTO (in spite of their general slowness to move with the times in many other areas, the Australian rules contain no such beast as ETOPS) rules allow extension from 180 up to 240 minutes if the airframe-engine combination is already operating on EDTO up to 180 minutes, and further extension beyond 240 minutes if the airframe-engine combination has been operating either under EDTO for 24 months, or under EDTO beyond 180 minutes up to 240 minutes for 12 months. Have a look at the following documents for more detail of what is involved.

CAO 82.0
CAAP 82-1

As for sub-60°S, CASA definitely puts limitations and requirements on that, which like EDTO rules apply to aircraft with more than two engines as well. Again the same documents refer.

I've never heard of twin-engine flights being an issue under the Antarctic Treaty, and there have definitely been twin engine flights to Antarctica; could you please point us in the direction of a reference for what you are referring to?

V/F


I believe, but don't know, that the requirements of CASA for sub 60 degree operations reflect the requirements of the Antarctic Treaty Organisation. They are probably not in the treaty itself but in the associated documentation. If you read the references above trans Antarctic operations are a LONG way off.

Gemuser
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:53 am

Qantas to offer business class passengers limited edition amenity kit on board 787 between December and March

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... t-for-787/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:05 am

Qantas unveils latest marketing campaign

Qantas has unveiled its latest marketing campaign, celebrating its people and their efforts to bring the world closer using the newest addition to the national carrier’s fleet, the Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner.
The campaign is part of an ongoing series, profiling the stories of real Qantas people who are involved in the preparation and delivery of Qantas’ Dreamliner; a pilot, an engineer, and cabin crew.


Craig the Engineer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN79kw_ ... e=youtu.be

Andrew the Pilot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYSn68i ... e=youtu.be

Hatice the Flight Attendant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3evMLB9 ... e=youtu.be

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media ... -campaign/
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:25 am

CHI2DFW wrote:
ORD is a large 1 hub and the 3rd largest city & metro area in the US. Not to mention a great connecting point (DFW primarily connects OZ to FL and DC). ORD provides the Midwest, northeast, eastern Canada, and the British Isles.

A couple of points regarding your ORD arguments, to start with:

- Population size is a relevant, but not decisive factor - hence why QF does not yet fly to DEL, ICN and other large cities.
- DFW is a fantastic hub - with ~900 daily flights, AA at DFW is the second largest airline hub in the world, only behind DL at ATL.
- ORD is not a 'great connecting point' from Australia to the British Isles - indeed, SYD - LAX - LHR is shorter than SYD - ORD - LHR.

Even for key destinations like EWR, IAD and PHL, a stop in DFW is shorter than a stop in ORD, for customers based in SYD.

As for SEA, it has a series of factors going for it, of interest to QF:

- Within the United States, SEA is the fastest growing major city, and the State of Washington's economy is also the fastest growing.
- Being closer to Australia than ORD, SEA can actually be reached non-stop from SYD on QF's 787s (avoiding the need for using BNE).
- SEA is particularly high-yielding, with Amazon, Boeing, Expedia, Microsoft and Starbucks having significant operations there.

As others have pointed out, QF also has a relationship with AS, which would increase the viability of any SYD - SEA service by QF.

Cheers,

C.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:21 am

It would be bne-sea though, not syd-sea
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:13 am

HM7 wrote:
It would be bne-sea though, not syd-sea

Perhaps it could be routed as BNE - SYD - SEA, to take advantage of the BNE 787 base, but also SYD's larger market?

Cheers,

C.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:27 am

planemanofnz wrote:
HM7 wrote:
It would be bne-sea though, not syd-sea

Perhaps it could be routed as BNE - SYD - SEA, to take advantage of the BNE 787 base, but also SYD's larger market?

Cheers,

C.


In which case, if I lived in/near BNE and wanted/needed to go to or near SEA, I would 100% choose BNE-LAX-SEA over BNE-SYD-SEA... at least with the former I'd be heading in the right direction the whole time...
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:36 am

DeltaB717 wrote:
In which case, if I lived in/near BNE and wanted/needed to go to or near SEA, I would 100% choose BNE-LAX-SEA over BNE-SYD-SEA... at least with the former I'd be heading in the right direction the whole time...

Though, you would have to transit through the nightmare that is LAX.

Cheers,

C.
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:26 am

Hey guys,
How about the new North American route being MEL-BNE-??? wherever in the US or Canada is finally chosen? That would allow crossover between the two initial Dreamliner bases for whatever reason (maintenance, rotation etc) if that kind of thing is required or desirable ... And wasn't Melbourne the originally planned starting point of the planned Chicago flights around the years 2000-2001? So MEL-BNE-Chicago?
Just a thought. Personally I want Seattle!
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:57 am

planemanofnz wrote:
DeltaB717 wrote:
In which case, if I lived in/near BNE and wanted/needed to go to or near SEA, I would 100% choose BNE-LAX-SEA over BNE-SYD-SEA... at least with the former I'd be heading in the right direction the whole time...

Though, you would have to transit through the nightmare that is LAX.

Cheers,

C.


True... I've not yet had that 'pleasure', so hadn't factored that in :lol:
 
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:46 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
How about the new North American route being MEL-BNE-??? wherever in the US or Canada is finally chosen? That would allow crossover between the two initial Dreamliner bases for whatever reason (maintenance, rotation etc) if that kind of thing is required or desirable ... And wasn't Melbourne the originally planned starting point of the planned Chicago flights around the years 2000-2001? So MEL-BNE-Chicago?
Just a thought. Personally I want Seattle!
Cheers,
Bunumuring.


They will already crossover at LAX between MEL-LAX and BNE-LAX-JFK so any swaps can go there. I doubt QF will run domestic tag-ons, at least not regularly. Particularly if flights were to operate to a similar timetable as LAX-BNE-LAX, there isn't time to do a flight to MEL in between.
 
QF29
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:13 am

VH-ZNA is currently on the final stretch to home!

https://www.flightradar24.com/QFA7879/f41f5ca
A318/19/20/21, 330-2/3, 345, 380, B717 B737-4/6/7/8/9 B763 B743/4 B777-2/3 B787-8/9, Q-400, DHC-3 Seaplane, C172S, PA-28, Super Decathlon
 
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:49 am

QF29 wrote:
VH-ZNA is currently on the final stretch to home!

https://www.flightradar24.com/QFA7879/f41f5ca


Look forward to seeing it tomorrow
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qf789
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:54 am

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CBRboy
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:03 pm

Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:57 pm

QF29 wrote:
VH-ZNA is currently on the final stretch to home!

https://www.flightradar24.com/QFA7879/f41f5ca
When you refer to 'home' do you mean Seattle where the aircraft was built or Sydney, where it will not be based/homed? :-) This is one gigantic propaganda exercise, which QF is very good at, and which the pathetic Australian media gobble up and regurgitate.

Our admirable national flag carrier has finally taken delivery of an aircraft which other airlines have had for six years and which its own subsidiary has had for four years. It is not a 'game-changer' by any reasonable definition of those words. But we will hear that repeated over and over again.

Nonetheless, I'm pleased to see Qantas finally taking on the 787.
 
MooLor
Posts: 157
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Re: Australian Aviation Thread - October 2017

Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:24 pm

CBRboy wrote:
QF29 wrote:
VH-ZNA is currently on the final stretch to home!

https://www.flightradar24.com/QFA7879/f41f5ca
When you refer to 'home' do you mean Seattle where the aircraft was built or Sydney, where it will not be based/homed? :-) This is one gigantic propaganda exercise, which QF is very good at, and which the pathetic Australian media gobble up and regurgitate.

Our admirable national flag carrier has finally taken delivery of an aircraft which other airlines have had for six years and which its own subsidiary has had for four years. It is not a 'game-changer' by any reasonable definition of those words. But we will hear that repeated over and over again.

Nonetheless, I'm pleased to see Qantas finally taking on the 787.


QF HQ is just up the road from SYD, so I get why it's going to SYD first. Pity about the weather after some sort of record breaking dry spell, but the garden is loving it. :D

(I have been inside QF HQ - they have an old 767 / 743 engine in the food court. Pretty cool. )

For me, the 787 finally joining the fleet symbolises QF's phoenix-like resurrection, and by the carry on I'm guessing a lot of other people see it that way too. Well done AJ. Really hope your PR machine can continue to excite people over this aircraft.

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