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nitepilot79
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Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:59 am

Impressive. Too bad it comes at the cost of some great planes becoming obsolete:

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... yptr=yahoo

Article quote:

"18 billion pounds of fuel: That's how much the Dreamliner is estimated to have saved for its flights compared to older, gas-guzzling wide bodies it replaced since the first delivery in 2011."
 
LatinPlane
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:37 am

AeroMexico just presented its 2015-2016 Sustainability Report and it claims that the airline has been able to reduce its fuel consumption by 23% by switching from operating a mix of 767/777s on long-haul routes to 787-800s and 787-900s. The 787s have been such a game changer for the operation that the carrier is now able to operate profitably for most of year on its Asian routes. Historically Asia operated at a loss for a good portion of the year due to inadequate equipment such as 762's operating on its NRT route.

https://www.aeromexico.com/cms/sites/de ... nglish.pdf

The airline has strategically standardized its fleet to only three families of aircraft to maximize efficiency and profitability. It's expected to continue long-haul expansion with more 787s to be acquired soon.

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Ziyulu
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:55 am

What a boring fleet. You either get on a 737 or 787.
 
flyinghippo
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:29 am

Ziyulu wrote:
What a boring fleet. You either get on a 737 or 787.


Yep!! Tell me about it. All airlines should have an exciting fleet for us to be excited about!! Who cares about operational efficiencies or crew training!! Fuel consumption?!? Pffftt... screw that!
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:39 am

I guess the 787 was a game changer after all. Who knew?
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
N626AA
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:26 am

As much as I love variety like air travel had in the 90s, this is a very smart and economical move on their part. I would do the same thing if i was in charge of making such decisions for an airline. $$

(Refering to the Aeromexico decision to consolidate their fleet to 170/190s, 737s, and 787s)
A306 319 320 321 332 333 343 B722 733 734 735 737 738 744 752 762 763 772 773 DC93 DC1040 MD82/83/88 MD90 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9 E140 E145/45X DHQ3 ATR7
 
HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:28 am

Won't more be saved if the damn thing wasn't grounded so often.
 
Busyboy2
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:29 am

Ziyulu wrote:
What a boring fleet. You either get on a 737 or 787.



Right? Maintaining a viable business model be damned! Multi-billion Peso Airlines should make terrible business decisions to placate the Children on this board.
 
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rosecityspotter
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:32 am

Busyboy2 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
What a boring fleet. You either get on a 737 or 787.



Right? Maintaining a viable business model be damned! Multi-billion Peso Airlines should make terrible business decisions to placate the Children on this board.


The avgeek in me wishes we had the older, more ''nostalgic'' planes, but obviously economical decisions make more sense.
 
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caoimhin
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:39 am

...and Jayafe will still insist that the programme is an unprecedented disaster. Surely AM have made a horrible error in judgement in choosing this aircraft.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:47 am

A 23% fuel consumption improvement vs the 767 is in line with promise. Excellent to see.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:02 am

That would be great news, if it wasn't for the fact the fuel saved by the RR equipped fleet has been blown by hiring in replacement aircraft due to engine problems, which is also costing the airlines much, much more than the fuel (un)saved.
Signature. You just read one.
 
bgm
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:11 am

B777LRF wrote:
That would be great news, if it wasn't for the fact the fuel saved by the RR equipped fleet has been blown by hiring in replacement aircraft due to engine problems, which is also costing the airlines much, much more than the fuel (un)saved.


Exactly what I was thinking. Of course, only applies to RR 787s.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:30 am

Cheap PR, how much more contamination has been produced due to new manufacturing methods? 787 (as every new gen airplane) loves plastic
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:07 am

Jayafe wrote:
Cheap PR, how much more contamination has been produced due to new manufacturing methods? 787 (as every new gen airplane) loves plastic


I'm glad that you agree that the PR about the A350 is just cheap and not meaningful... Many people keep telling me about all the composites on the A380 as well... more cheap PR.

Can you believe all the cheap plastic components on Airbus aircraft.

Perhaps its Airbus that produces a lot of contamination with their aircraft...

Or perhaps there nothing unusual about the use of composites in aircraft, with the possible exception of the assembly method which might affect cost of production.

Have a great day
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:23 am

Jayafe wrote:
Cheap PR, how much more contamination has been produced due to new manufacturing methods? 787 (as every new gen airplane) loves plastic

ANSWER: less than the contamination that you're attempting to inject into this thread. :roll:



In their latest environmental report, Boeing's actually reduced aggregate physical waste by 19% in the 2012-2016 period
(read that: "primary 787 commercial production time frame")

In the same time frame: greenhouse emissions are down 5%, water usage down 18%, and hazardous waste down 17%.

Image



If you have evidence that refutes any of that, I'm sure regulators would be quite interested to see it.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
StTim
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:56 am

For those in the parts of the world that no longer use the Imperial system this is about 8.5 billion Kg of fuel. Quite a saving.

The increasing fuel price is likely to accelerate - if that is possible given that the manufacturers are flat out - the switch to newer models.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:14 am

My take on it....

The 787 (and the A350 as it is broadly similar) isn't actually a game changer. It's more of a John the Baptist aircraft in that it is incredibly important, but only as a herald and pointer to what's coming down the pike.

The real game changer is going to be akin to when turbines supplanted pistons, or turbofans took over from turbojets. Only more so. Where the 787 fits in is as a precursor to the next generation of large transport aircraft that will incorporate a completely different way of thinking in how to accelerate 300 or more people to over 500 miles an hour and move them across oceans. So far this points to some kind of electric drive. Where the 787 fits in is that it needed to happen. We can't move away from the metal tube and turbofans without technologies like carbon fibre happening first as there will need to be huge weight reduction before electric can be made to work.

So rather than label it a game-changer, it's better to look at the 787 as an enabler. A solution to a major bottleneck that otherwise blocks up access to the future of aviation. To some, this would actually indicate that today's two carbon fibre airliners are actually more important at this time than anything one could label as a game changer as without this enabling it is impossible to identify any point where the game actually did change....or will change in the near future
 
planecane
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:36 am

Channex757 wrote:
My take on it....

The real game changer is going to be akin to when turbines supplanted pistons, or turbofans took over from turbojets. Only more so. Where the 787 fits in is as a precursor to the next generation of large transport aircraft that will incorporate a completely different way of thinking in how to accelerate 300 or more people to over 500 miles an hour and move them across oceans. So far this points to some kind of electric drive. Where the 787 fits in is that it needed to happen.


Unless there is going to be a nuclear reactor on board, electric drive isn't coming to aviation any time in the foreseeable future. The batteries are just too heavy for the energy they can store. They also lose capacity as they age. In the automotive industry, Tesla has had the best success with capacity retention from available data. Even their batteries lose 5%-10% of their capacity by 100,000 miles. That means significant range losses for an airliner as the batteries age.

Then there is the cost of batteries. In 2020 Tesla's expected cost to produce battery packs will be $157 per kwh. The battery pack to store the equivalent energy of a fully fueled 737 would cost $40 million TO BUILD, not to buy.

Electric MAY make sense for cars but it makes no sense for aircraft. Honestly, continued ICE improvements combined with biofuels probably makes more sense than electric for cars both in cost and overall environmental impact. A lot of energy is used to mine the rare earth metals needed to make the batteries.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:59 am

Saved compared to what? What's the baseline? A current build 763 or perhaps an age old 747? Could be anything.
 
slider
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:23 pm

I for one am not going to be a wet blanket here...this is great news no matter if you're a fanboi for Airbus or Boeing or anyone.

So many salty cynics here, really.

Usually in non-av forum, I'm the one calling out the envirocultists for their stupid crap, but this is a legitimate win for environmentally friendly commercial aviation, reducing resource usage, pollutants, making airlines more efficient (and by virtue of the mission of the 787, more effective) and, one would surmise, more profitable. That's a win for everyone involved.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:55 pm

planecane wrote:

Unless there is going to be a nuclear reactor on board, electric drive isn't coming to aviation any time in the foreseeable future. The batteries are just too heavy for the energy they can store. They also lose capacity as they age. In the automotive industry, Tesla has had the best success with capacity retention from available data. Even their batteries lose 5%-10% of their capacity by 100,000 miles. That means significant range losses for an airliner as the batteries age.

Then there is the cost of batteries. In 2020 Tesla's expected cost to produce battery packs will be $157 per kwh. The battery pack to store the equivalent energy of a fully fueled 737 would cost $40 million TO BUILD, not to buy.

Electric MAY make sense for cars but it makes no sense for aircraft. Honestly, continued ICE improvements combined with biofuels probably makes more sense than electric for cars both in cost and overall environmental impact. A lot of energy is used to mine the rare earth metals needed to make the batteries.

Electricity is going to be the next giant leap. Managing energy will become much more of an exact science.

Hybrid systems will be the way forward; in fact Rolls Royce is partnering in the current work using a BAE146 and a powerful electric fan replacing one engine. This then gets driven by a powerplant in the main body of the aircraft via a hybrid system of battery and generator.

Where the 787 fits in is that to enable this kind of genuine step change in propulsion, weight savings need to be made elsewhere. It could be done with metal but to really make it work, carbon fibre next-generation construction is needed to reap the benefits. Again, managing the kinetic energy of an aircraft will be much more of an exact science.

The 787 (and A350) are planes that unlock the future. They are only the start of aviation that uses barely any liquid fuels compared to today, and necessary steps to pioneer the technologies that will be commonplace going forward for aircraft building
 
Bavd
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:51 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Saved compared to what? What's the baseline? A current build 763 or perhaps an age old 747? Could be anything.

Exactly, probably compared to 747-200 or 707.... Want to save fuel and the environment ? Skip a flight now and then.
 
Armodeen
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:02 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
I guess the 787 was a game changer after all. Who knew?


This sort of thing is seen with every new generation. Less about individual aircraft, more about technology as a whole, IMHO.
 
MartijnNL
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:07 pm

The words gas-guzzling and game changer should be banned from airliners.net.

Aircraft engines become more fuel efficient over time. In twenty years the 787 may be considered gas-guzzling.

Many aircraft before the 787 can also be considered as game changers. I guess all Boeing types were, from the 727 till the 777.

A 20 percent fuel reduction sounds great. But only if the total fleet number stays the same. I have a feeling there will be much more 787's in service than the types they are replacing. And all those 787 combined will probably use more fuel in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:39 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
Cheap PR, how much more contamination has been produced due to new manufacturing methods? 787 (as every new gen airplane) loves plastic

ANSWER: less than the contamination that you're attempting to inject into this thread. :roll:



In their latest environmental report, Boeing's actually reduced aggregate physical waste by 19% in the 2012-2016 period
(read that: "primary 787 commercial production time frame")

In the same time frame: greenhouse emissions are down 5%, water usage down 18%, and hazardous waste down 17%.

Image



If you have evidence that refutes any of that, I'm sure regulators would be quite interested to see it.


Interesting that scope 1 is down by 5%, what about scope 2 and 3? I am quite sure scope 3 is up, since they produce more a/c.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Boeing Estimates 18 Billion Pounds Of Fuel Saved By Dreamliner

Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:42 am

MartijnNL wrote:
The words gas-guzzling and game changer should be banned from airliners.net.

Aircraft engines become more fuel efficient over time. In twenty years the 787 may be considered gas-guzzling.

Many aircraft before the 787 can also be considered as game changers. I guess all Boeing types were, from the 727 till the 777.

A 20 percent fuel reduction sounds great. But only if the total fleet number stays the same. I have a feeling there will be much more 787's in service than the types they are replacing. And all those 787 combined will probably use more fuel in total.


Exactly. If you want to think about the environment, then we need to reduce to amount of flying, until the electric plane is here, or H2 based fuels. The growth rate are quite unsustainable.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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