It hasn't been mentioned here but there was an article in the Washington Post about a month ago about a surge in noise complaints with respect to operations at DCA and BWI and now at IAD. The complaints related to both approach/departure paths as well as the timing of flights. Now admittedly some of the data on complaints appear skewed by the fact that the same group of people is apparently flying one complaint every hour, but there has been a rise in griping coming from Maryland's governor's office and from DC's delegate to Congress.

https://ggwash.org/view/38766/palisades ... tten-worse

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... 63feba64e4

DCA-ROCguy wrote:

The most important thing to do at IAD now is not to increase the airport's debt and costs. Accept Terminal C-D as a fact of life, shutter the A regional gates and move all UA regional traffic to C-D, and move the frigging train station back to actually being at C-D. That is a small amount of money spent that would be a very good idea. MWAA has spectacularly mismanaged IAD. The underground train system was unneccesary. The moon buggy system worked fine and was more convenient. A much less expensive expansion of TSA on the second floor of the landside building would have made much more sense. Old IAD was much better--check in on the second floor, go through security on the second floor, walk into a moon buggy seconds later on the second floor, walk off the moon buggy onto your concourse on the second floor.

Not thrilled that MWAA can send DCA money out to IAD. DCA passengers shouldn't pay for MWAA's mismanagement.

Jim

Nowhere near enough room at C-D for all of the regional flights at A terminal. If anything, more regionals at C-D will get pushed back to A as mainline flights increase. A new C-D isn't going to happen as you mentioned, nobody wants to pay for it and it will stay for a lot longer. Apart from the A-Net crowd, I don't think one person has ever decided not to but a ticket because of the age of a terminal.

More likely now that IAD money will flow to DCA to pay for the big building plans there and at the end of the day, capacity is the same, just more $$ sunk into replacement buildings.

MWAA is a giant mismanaged psuedo-government entity and running as inefficiently as possible is built into the DNA of any government organization.

I think a big story here is how BWI has now taken the lead in passenger traffic over IAD and DCA. Here's a WPost article that goes over how BWI is competing.

The 2016 passenger numbers:
BWI: 25.1mln
DCA: 23.6mln
IAD: 21.8mln

It wasn't always like that. Here's an article from 2012 as BWI just started to surpass IAD. IAD had been beating BWI since 2003.

I fly out of all 3 airports, and my experience at BWI has always been the best. The time from arrival to check-in to gate has been fastest, and for long-term parking there are many private companies offering competitive pricing. I also arrived on one of BWI's few international flights (Condor from FRA) this summer, and it looks like they pulled office staff for a few minutes just to guide people through immigration lines. It went much faster than at Dulles.

BWI comes off to me like the scrappy upstart willing to do what it takes to compete. They recently approved a $60mln expansion of the international terminal too.

IAD is still my preference for international travel just because of the huge number of options, but I definitely consider BWI for domestic flights or where a connection is needed in all cases.

And yet despite building the AeroTrain, after every international arrival to C/D, we're still herded like cattle on to the mobile lounges to be moved over to the new C&B building landside.

I always wondered what kept people from just walking over and hopping the AeroTrain back to the main terminal, space magic.

BTW: Can one simple go back and forth between A/B & C/D terminals without being ferried back to the C&B? Funny, I fly six times a year out of C/D and never given it any thought.

BWI has had the lead in passenger traffic for some time now.

Blimpie wrote:

And yet despite building the AeroTrain, after every international arrival to C/D, we're still herded like cattle on to the mobile lounges to be moved over to the new C&B building landside.

I always wondered what kept people from just walking over and hopping the AeroTrain back to the main terminal, space magic.

How else would you expect passengers to remain sterile going from an international inbound to the IAB for immigration? The arrivals area in C/D isn't large enough for all arrivals, it's only large enough for transfers, so all Washington-bound passengers need to go to the IAB. There's no other way to get there than mobile lounges or busses. The AeroTrain is airside, but obviously any international arrivals need to be segregated until cleared.

Blimpie wrote:

BTW: Can one simple go back and forth between A/B & C/D terminals without being ferried back to the C&B? Funny, I fly six times a year out of C/D and never given it any thought.

The train runs from B — Main Terminal — A — C. It's a J pattern.

First time to post here. As a resident of the RIC area, I make every effort to use RIC as much as possible, even for International flights. The travel time to IAD, DCA and BWI can be horrendous. Recently, I spent almost 3.5 hours, one way, on the road just to get to IAD. That makes it a minimum of 7-8 hour round trip for for someone who would take me there. Plus the fuel consumed and abuse of the car to get there. For the most part connections out of RIC are pretty decent. I would like to see some International routes opened up out of RIC however, at the same time, I will take a stop or 2 to avoid the traffic around DC. I'm flying to CGK in 2 weeks on Delta and will connect in DTW as well as ICN. It could have been a one stop trip out of IAD but the cost of the tickets were the same and I can drive 20 minutes to the airport as opposed to 3 hours.

atcsundevil wrote:

Blimpie wrote:

And yet despite building the AeroTrain, after every international arrival to C/D, we're still herded like cattle on to the mobile lounges to be moved over to the new C&B building landside.

I always wondered what kept people from just walking over and hopping the AeroTrain back to the main terminal, space magic.

How else would you expect passengers to remain sterile going from an international inbound to the IAB for immigration? The arrivals area in C/D isn't large enough for all arrivals, it's only large enough for transfers, so all Washington-bound passengers need to go to the IAB. There's no other way to get there than mobile lounges or busses. The AeroTrain is airside, but obviously any international arrivals need to be segregated until cleared.

Blimpie wrote:

BTW: Can one simple go back and forth between A/B & C/D terminals without being ferried back to the C&B? Funny, I fly six times a year out of C/D and never given it any thought.

The train runs from B — Main Terminal — A — C. It's a J pattern.

No, I realize that. That wasn't what I was going for. I'm saying I can get off my inbound intl arrival at gate C/D and there is nothing really stopping me from wondering back to to the main terminal land-side via the aerotrain.

(While I did say herded, there isn't like anyone hand holding/escorting us to the mobile lounged to get to the IAB)

Blimpie wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

Blimpie wrote:

And yet despite building the AeroTrain, after every international arrival to C/D, we're still herded like cattle on to the mobile lounges to be moved over to the new C&B building landside.

I always wondered what kept people from just walking over and hopping the AeroTrain back to the main terminal, space magic.

How else would you expect passengers to remain sterile going from an international inbound to the IAB for immigration? The arrivals area in C/D isn't large enough for all arrivals, it's only large enough for transfers, so all Washington-bound passengers need to go to the IAB. There's no other way to get there than mobile lounges or busses. The AeroTrain is airside, but obviously any international arrivals need to be segregated until cleared.

Blimpie wrote:

BTW: Can one simple go back and forth between A/B & C/D terminals without being ferried back to the C&B? Funny, I fly six times a year out of C/D and never given it any thought.

The train runs from B — Main Terminal — A — C. It's a J pattern.

No, I realize that. That wasn't what I was going for. I'm saying I can get off my inbound intl arrival at gate C/D and there is nothing really stopping me from wondering back to to the main terminal land-side via the aerotrain.

(While I did say herded, there isn't like anyone hand holding/escorting us to the mobile lounged to get to the IAB)

I'm not sure that I follow — do you mean clearing customs in C/D as opposed to going to the IAB when you're not a transfer passenger? Then just taking the AeroTrain back to the main terminal? If that's what you mean, I'm not sure why you'd want to do that. I'm my experience, the IAB is quicker since it's larger and generally better staffed (although I've had Global Entry for years, so that doesn't really matter much to me), but if you cleared at C/D, you'd have to reclear security. That seems like a lot of hassle just to avoid the mobile lounge. It always takes twice as long to clear security after an intl arrival since most airports don't have PreCheck post CBP (at least I've never seen it), so I would pretty much do anything to avoid that unless I definitely had a connecting flight.

I honestly can't say I understand why some people seem so adverse to the mobile lounges/plane mates. I guess because I grew up with them flying so often from IAD that I've just never minded? It is a pain to have to wait for them, so I understand that aspect, but I think they're more comfortable than the typical airport bus. Sure, it would be great if there were a train or walkway to get passengers from A/B and C/D to the IAB, but I would rather they drop a billion dollars on a new terminal instead of another project to try to replace the mobile lounge system!

Agenda and documents for the next MWAA Board Meeting are up:

http://www.mwaa.com/about/october-18-20 ... e-meetings

Some highlights about DCA's renovation, including details on the operational transition for AA's gate 35X operations:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... ourney.pdf

Two Dulles Metro updates, with lots of good pictures of the progress:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... update.pdf
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... 1_2017.pdf

blockski wrote:

Agenda and documents for the next MWAA Board Meeting are up:

http://www.mwaa.com/about/october-18-20 ... e-meetings

Some highlights about DCA's renovation, including details on the operational transition for AA's gate 35X operations:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... ourney.pdf

Two Dulles Metro updates, with lots of good pictures of the progress:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... update.pdf
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... 1_2017.pdf

I recall reading that the Silver Line project had a projected completion date in mid 2019 with an opening date around early 2020. Do you know if that's still the case?

Georgetown wrote:

estorilm wrote:

Not completely related (thought I love the thread idea also) but does anyone know what large aircraft departed IAD around 8:45PM EST this evening?

I'm kicking myself for not running outside sooner, I heard the typical jet blast low freq. roar approaching, but it's sometimes typical out here with the right wind, etc. Then a few seconds later I realized it was NOT typical. I ran outside to see it departing, VERY low and flat on climb-out, wingspan appeared to be AN-124, the haunting engine sound definitely seemed like the Antonov also.

Based on the departure perf. it looked like it was leaving WITH cargo, which seems odd?

I checked all the usual flight sites and only saw a 744 and 777, etc. They'd be a few thousand feet higher than this was. I'm about 15 miles (as the crow flies) west of IAD, this thing only looked to be about 4-5k feet AGL.

Was it Volga-Dnper’s An-124? Was in SFO a lot recently. Here’s a couple links:

http://travelskills.com/2017/05/03/russian-mystery-plane-at-sfo/

http://airline.volga-dnepr.com/en/

Yes, this. Noticed that it is apparently flying relief flights to SJU, perhaps heavy equipment?

No C/D will be coming any time soon I imagine. However, if/when it does, it must be designed to consolidate UAX and mainline ops. Having to go to an entirely different concourse to connect is a pain. I would think a concourse could be designed in such a way as to add gates to accommodate regional connections.

atcsundevil wrote:

I recall reading that the Silver Line project had a projected completion date in mid 2019 with an opening date around early 2020. Do you know if that's still the case?

That is still the case...still projected to open in 2020.

FlyPNS1 wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

I recall reading that the Silver Line project had a projected completion date in mid 2019 with an opening date around early 2020. Do you know if that's still the case?

That is still the case...still projected to open in 2020.

That'll be nice when they finally finish it, unfortunately about three years behind the original schedule though. It'll be good for IAD, but also good for people who live out here (I'm in Leesburg). The drive into the future Ashburn station is a lot less hassle and cheaper in tolls than getting to Reston. It would be nice if there were a way they could run express trains to/from IAD just to cut down on the travel time, but the way Metro does its track setup, I don't think that's possible. Taking Metro to the airport will be fine provided people can get over the 45+ minute ride depending on where they're coming from.

atcsundevil wrote:

FlyPNS1 wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

I recall reading that the Silver Line project had a projected completion date in mid 2019 with an opening date around early 2020. Do you know if that's still the case?

That is still the case...still projected to open in 2020.

That'll be nice when they finally finish it, unfortunately about three years behind the original schedule though. It'll be good for IAD, but also good for people who live out here (I'm in Leesburg). The drive into the future Ashburn station is a lot less hassle and cheaper in tolls than getting to Reston. It would be nice if there were a way they could run express trains to/from IAD just to cut down on the travel time, but the way Metro does its track setup, I don't think that's possible. Taking Metro to the airport will be fine provided people can get over the 45+ minute ride depending on where they're coming from.

Express trains would be great and METRO could do it... It would take some good dispatching and learning how to plan meets and crossover the express trains at certain locations where they wouldn't have to wait on regular trains but that would require them to be efficient, which we all know is impossible. Maybe as a precursor to opening, they fire everybody, bring in some former railroad officials and have them implement an operating plan similar to what freight railroads use, and also the culture of accountability that comes with the freight railroads. Start holding the union accountable as well. Railroad officials would laugh at the tactics METRO's union uses and just start firing people until they had it running like they wanted it.

Out here in the Bay Area Caltrain runs express trains without having a dedicated track. There are some crossovers and cutouts but they do pull off the dispatching nicely. I’d imagine at least some version would be possible for metro.

What exactly does WN hope to achieve at IAD? Are they hoping to build up their presence at all 3 DC area airports over time or are they just sitting on their 4 destinations and associated gates at IAD so that they can claim to serve all 3 area airports? Also why is it that DCA is the only area airport that doesn't have non-stop DEN service? A strategy by WN to try and get people to travel to IAD instead?

To the OP thanks for starting the thread!!

I fly out of all 3,
Preferred airport BWI because it's close to where I live (Laurel) I for one don't mind the airplane noise over my house and hope those complaining don't set back the ATC modernization

BWI
I like what they are doing, easiest airport of the 3 from curb to gate. Also like that Terminal E was linked to A-D and the new security check point.

Going forward Mayb BWI becomes a major LCC Long haul base for Norwegian, a partnership with Southwest would make BWI a great option for LCC TATL.

DCA
my second choice for domestic, glad they are getting rid of 35X,
Even with silver line DCA will always be DCs favorite.
No matter how many times I fly into DCA river visual views never get old

IAD
Definately my 3rd choice because of where I live, but for international flights it can't be beat. As a sky team guy I have had my fair share of KLM/AF flights and terminal A/B at Dulles is great and modern, I really hope metro is able to do some kind of express train from the DC when silver line opens.

jplatts wrote:

fraspotter wrote:

What exactly does WN hope to achieve at IAD? Are they hoping to build up their presence at all 3 DC area airports over time or are they just sitting on their 4 destinations and associated gates at IAD so that they can claim to serve all 3 area airports? Also why is it that DCA is the only area airport that doesn't have non-stop DEN service? A strategy by WN to try and get people to travel to IAD instead?

Southwest only has 2 beyond-perimeter slot exemptions at DCA and both of those beyond-perimeter slot exemptions are already in use, one for the nonstop from DCA to AUS and the other for the nonstop from AUS to DCA. Southwest does not currently have any beyond perimeter slot exemptions available that would allow it to serve DEN nonstop from DCA since DEN is a beyond-perimeter destination that Southwest cannot serve nonstop from DCA without a beyond-perimeter slot exemption.

Frontier and United both have beyond-perimeter slot exemptions that allow Frontier and United to serve DEN nonstop from DCA, but Southwest did not serve DCA when these beyond-perimeter slot exemptions were granted to Frontier and United.

Congress can and should enact legislation that would additional grant beyond-perimeter slot exemptions to Southwest, Delta, and United to improve competition at DCA and to provide a level playing field at DCA since American already holds 12 beyond-perimeter slot exemptions and Alaska already holds 12 beyond-perimeter slot exemptions (two of which are beyond-perimeter slot exemptions that are used for Virgin America DCA-SFO nonstop service) whereas Delta and United each hold only 4 beyond-perimeter slot exemptions and Southwest only hold 2 beyond-perimeter slot exemptions.

Ah ok totally forgot about the perimeter restrictions. It still however doesn't explain the bare bones presence at IAD though. I can understand IAD-DEN on WN due to the DCA perimeter restrictions but why have only 3 other routes to ATL, FLL and MCO that are also covered via DCA and BWI? Are they sitting on the slots and gates to prevent others from acquiring them or do they actually have a plan to increase their presence? Are there gate limitations at IAD for WN? Is IAD a slot restricted airport? I understand BWI is a major hub for WN but the area around IAD is completely on the opposite side of DC from BWI.

jfidler wrote:

I think a big story here is how BWI has now taken the lead in passenger traffic over IAD and DCA. Here's a WPost article that goes over how BWI is competing.

The 2016 passenger numbers:
BWI: 25.1mln
DCA: 23.6mln
IAD: 21.8mln

It wasn't always like that. Here's an article from 2012 as BWI just started to surpass IAD. IAD had been beating BWI since 2003.

I fly out of all 3 airports, and my experience at BWI has always been the best. The time from arrival to check-in to gate has been fastest, and for long-term parking there are many private companies offering competitive pricing. I also arrived on one of BWI's few international flights (Condor from FRA) this summer, and it looks like they pulled office staff for a few minutes just to guide people through immigration lines. It went much faster than at Dulles.

BWI comes off to me like the scrappy upstart willing to do what it takes to compete. They recently approved a $60mln expansion of the international terminal too.

IAD is still my preference for international travel just because of the huge number of options, but I definitely consider BWI for domestic flights or where a connection is needed in all cases.

Interesting articles T4P

BWI gets the least attention of the 3 major Airports In The region (on a-net at least) but it consistently carries the most passengers

It definately has the best parking options of the 3.
And Train from DC to BWI is pretty simple, even with the shuttle from train I would still prefer it over the ride to dulles on metro with xx# of stops on a not always reliable metro.

atcsundevil wrote:

blockski wrote:

Agenda and documents for the next MWAA Board Meeting are up:

http://www.mwaa.com/about/october-18-20 ... e-meetings

Some highlights about DCA's renovation, including details on the operational transition for AA's gate 35X operations:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... ourney.pdf

Two Dulles Metro updates, with lots of good pictures of the progress:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... update.pdf
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... 1_2017.pdf

I recall reading that the Silver Line project had a projected completion date in mid 2019 with an opening date around early 2020. Do you know if that's still the case?

Yes, as far as I know, that is still the schedule. They might even be substantially complete with all of the obvious physical construction by early 2019. The systems testing, training, etc is what will take a longer time to ramp up before they can open for revenue operations. They’ve got to stand up an entire new rail yard.

An added element is the official handoff from MWAA to WMATA. WMATA will own the infrastructure going forward, so they will want to make sure that their getting an asset in good condition.

Since this is phase 2, I hope they’ve been able to incorporate lessons from phase 1. There was a delay in opening phase 1 due to a small design change. They changed the spec to use the regular PA system as part of the fire alarm system (instead of having a separate set of speakers for the fire alarm PA) but didn’t update the conduit and cabling for the main PA system to the fire protection specification, so they had to fix that... you never know what will come up in inspections.

atcsundevil wrote:

It's annoyed me how much WN has neglected RIC after the merger. AirTran had a fairly sizable operation for a number of years at both RIC and PHF, and now it's down to the solitary route to ATL.

I had no idea they had cut RIC that much, but it's not surprising. Southwest has less service at ORF today than they did pre-merger. We still have MCO, BWI and MDW but they have cut frequencies. We also lost BNA, LAS and the token ATL flight they added right after the merger.

Bringing in AirTran was a big turning point for RIC, which for years had been one of the most expensive airports in the nation. I'm hoping that once WN manages some fleet growth again, they'll consider expanding RIC. I think flights to MCO, BOS, MDW, HOU, LAS, PHX, LAX, or any combination of those would have a chance. I think they're less likely to add west coast ops (they've been adverse to adding too much transcon capacity in recent years), but two or three or routes isn't unreasonable.

And AirTran opened the floodgates. For a little while, RIC had the triple crown of FL, WN and B6.

Georgetown wrote:

Out here in the Bay Area Caltrain runs express trains without having a dedicated track. There are some crossovers and cutouts but they do pull off the dispatching nicely. I’d imagine at least some version would be possible for metro.

Without turning this into a railroad operations discussion (which is much more my expertise), Caltrain has much more flexibility with the dispatching due to the infrastructure and signaling in place. METRO only has crossovers at stations where Caltrain has crossovers located at different points over the railroad which were put in place with railroading in mind and not a transit operation. This allows for dispatchers to plan longer train meets or keep trains moving without much delay. Also, the capacity of a railroad vs a transit system is more flexible. If Caltrain tried running as many trains as METRO was running subway cars, the railroad would essentially shutdown. Because they aren't however, it allows for a much more fluid operation.

OKCDCA wrote:

Without turning this into a railroad operations discussion (which is much more my expertise), Caltrain has much more flexibility with the dispatching due to the infrastructure and signaling in place. METRO only has crossovers at stations where Caltrain has crossovers located at different points over the railroad which were put in place with railroading in mind and not a transit operation. This allows for dispatchers to plan longer train meets or keep trains moving without much delay. Also, the capacity of a railroad vs a transit system is more flexible. If Caltrain tried running as many trains as METRO was running subway cars, the railroad would essentially shutdown. Because they aren't however, it allows for a much more fluid operation.

Helpful to know! Figured there was complexity beyond my very limited (non-existant?) knowledge.

atcsundevil wrote:

It seems as though we've always had a lot of Washington DC area posters and plenty of discussion, but never a DC dedicated thread! So I'm changing that.

I'd like for this thread to encompass not just the DC Metro airports (IAD, DCA, BWI), but also other airports in the region, like RIC, ORF, PHF, CHO, LYH, ROA, etc.

A few topic ideas to get things started:

- What's in the near term future at Dulles/National/BWI? New airlines/routes?

- Construction updates at IAD and DCA

- Potential future deal between UA/MWAA to replace IAD Concourse C/D?

- Slot usage at DCA

- RIC finally got its first west coast flight (DEN) and appears to be performing well; are there other potential routes that could follow?

Just like other areas threads, this is an open and ongoing discussion about the DMV region. Enjoy!

First off, thanks for making this post.

I had been considering doing something for just VA, but this is actually better.

I grew up in CHO and try to keep up with whats going on there as well as IAD/DCA/RIC, occasionally I’ll see if there is any news in ROA/LYH but usually it’s pretty quiet.

washingtonflyer wrote:

So my question revolves around the new commuter terminal build-out at DCA. I saw them knocking down the MWAA building and they did that quickly. Once they begin work on the actual terminal area for the new pier, where are they going to move the CRJ2s and E145s and backup mainline AA aircraft that usually park in Commuter World?

So, I have not been through DCA in about 2 years now. I remembered when they were planing on building a new commuter terminal North of C gates for regionals, it was to have 12-15 gates? But I also remember reading something about them redoing a concourse on A and rebuilding there as a cheaper option. What was the final outcome?

A quick search turned this up dated May 22 2017

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=70427


Versus this in March 10 2017

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-435468/
Which ever is the result, anything has to be better than that Gate 35 nonsense, I loathed that so much that I stopped flying US/AA out of there and switched back to DL when going to DC.

From one of the articles it implies the E175/175-E2 would be able to use these new regional gates. What’s interesting is that is one of the largest operations into DC for AA now in their regional operation which would mean freeing up a number of gates for mainline aircraft. It should be interesting to see if anything helps, but either way not holding or waiting for “an aircraft currently on our gate” well be welcomed by airlines and passengers alike.

Blimpie wrote:

PS: I still loath the secured National Hall plans

Oddly enough, I am so excited for this, however that is mainly because I used to connect from B/C on AA and it was always such a joke, I can not tell you how many times I missed a flight after waiting for a gate and then waiting for a bus to take me 30 seconds across the ramp. This will allow more space for food/concessions as well as allow connecting passengers to enjoy that big open terminal.

*fun fact for today: Did you know that the architecture for the DCA airport was based of of Thomas Jefferson’s home, Monticello, in CHO? It was!

atcsundevil wrote:

It's annoyed me how much WN has neglected RIC after the merger. AirTran had a fairly sizable operation for a number of years at both RIC and PHF, and now it's down to the solitary route to ATL. Bringing in AirTran was a big turning point for RIC, which for years had been one of the most expensive airports in the nation. I'm hoping that once WN manages some fleet growth again, they'll consider expanding RIC. I think flights to MCO, BOS, MDW, HOU, LAS, PHX, LAX, or any combination of those would have a chance. I think they're less likely to add west coast ops (they've been adverse to adding too much transcon capacity in recent years), but two or three or routes isn't unreasonable.

This has been a big question mark for me, while I understand WN was changing up their fleet, they completely missed a huge point here. From what I understand, RIC is not a catering station. By the time they really merged FL and WN, the majority of the routes from RIC had been pulled, and they didn’t want to ramp RIC up or change it into a catering station, so they left it as a spoke … but only from ATL, it’s really odd. With the fleet changes coming into effect, I would guess there will be huge expansion there within the next few years.

My guesses for WN in RIC:

x1 DEN (am dep)
x2 BOS - huge market there that B6 found
x1 FLL
x1 MCO
x3 MDW
x1 STL
x1 LAS
X3 HOU - I remember CO on this with 737s when i was a kid

Other randoms probably a few times a week or weekendish: AUS, PIT, MSY, TPA, RSW, BNA

Those are just my guesses for later one...

OKCDCA wrote:

Has there ever been any consideration to try and squeeze in a parallel runway at DCA? I know it would be short but would probably be comparable to something you find at MDW but would be longer than 15/33 which is mostly for RJ's but there are videos floating around out there of 737's and even a 757 using it. Would it even be feasible if possible? Just a crazy idea...

Interestingly enough, this was a long lengthy discussion with a friend of mine and I some time back, we both came up with similar plan that involved expanding 4-22, backfilling into the Potomac near Four Mile Run, you could pave about 2000 feet at the end of RW 4, however you loose access to the parking lot there without creating a cut and cover access way which would be prone to flooding and be hard to provide drainage with. At the other end you could add about 500 feet towards/into the Potomac for RW 22 like they were doing for RW 33. This would give you up to about 7000/7500 feet, Allowing dual cross runway ops, one for arrivals and one for departures like we often see in LGA. While not perfect, with something like this we could see a reduction of congestion of about 50% or more.

The other idea we had was to do the same thing LGA did and add in “piers” for the runways and taxiways, not sure which would be more expensive, however, it might be “greener”

As far a parallel runway, it would be useless, there is not space for a parallel taxiway AND a runway, so you would end up with something like we see in LGW where a Runway is just used as a taxiway.

cheapgreek wrote:

What about WN or another LCC going to LYH? It may seem like a small area but it could draw from ROA and CHO, both minus a LCC apart from Allegiant in ROA. Its located right off a main highway, RT 460, has a 7100 foot runway and the terminal could handle more traffic, years back US had 737's to CLT and UA to IAD. It could become the center for a LCC in a 75 mile radius.

I can tell you it’s probably not gonna happen. CHO has a great catchment area with high driving companies and healthcare facilities as well as UVA which help CHO see a good amount of traffic. That being said, LYH has not done so well over the years, currently only sustaining limited Dash-8/ERJ/CRJ flights a few times a day to CLT.

Allegiant gave CHO a try, even with a shorter runway, it didn’t work out. Sadly, allegiant started their operation to CHO in late fall rather than summer and didn’t get the passenger numbers they were looking for, I think the service lasted maybe 3-4 months before the pulled the flights. I can’t see LYH really gaining anything near term, but never say never in the airline industry.

Richmond (RIC):

Last I looked at their master plan, there were some interesting developments.

http://www.flyrichmond.com/files/ric_alpmap.pdf

Most interestingly, was the RIC Airport proposed that they wanted a parallel runway for RW 16. While I am all for expansion, RIC just does not see enough traffic to justify a parallel runway, even going forward another 10 years I just can’t see them needing it, even at peak times I’ve only been 3-5 in line for takeoff which is maybe 5-8 minutes.

One of the things I am looking forward to is now that the apron expansion by Concourse A has been completed, they will likely start expansion of the actual concourse.
The other interesting part of their master plan was that they are planning for a light rail station, which would be great.

As far as operations, I mentioned WN earlier. DL seems to be content with operating 2x 757s a day into RIC (the rest MD80s and a few 737s), I am hopeful that they consider mainline or more flights to MSP, but also a morning flight to SLC for west bound connections, sadly everything can’t go through ATL, and some of us don’t want to. I was hopeful that RIC would gain some point to point flying like IND/BDL/RDU as they have a number of Fortune 500 companies there.

AA finally upgraded the MD80 flights from RIC-DFW to 737s and I think 1x A319 a day

Oddly UA can’t seem to understand that their IAH flight needs to be on larger equipment, a E145 for 3 hours is murder. Those flights used to be on 737s, bring in a few dual class E75s and they’ll fill right up.

JetBlue and RIC seem to be doing well, they recently doubled their MCO or FLL flights to 2x a day and I think BOS is up to x5 or more flights a day which seems unreal, but glad to see it working out. I was hopeful that they would expand more out of RIC as an OD city.

I’m guessing, and it’s just a guess, Spirit is next to enter the RIC market, and they will be a huge game changer, if they don’t jump in it’s likely we’ll see Frontier. There is a huge space for LCC to jump into RIC since WN doesn’t seem interested. An airline like NK/F9 operating to places all over the country will likely work if the flights only operate a few times a week. They can certainly stimulate the markets that are untapped.

As for Charlottesville (CHO):

I know a little more about this one, as I have been following their progression.

The airport went under a bit of a refurb/construction recently. They expanded TSA which has been desperately needed since the terminal was built back in the 90s, with only one lane for screening which was horrible. In addition, they closed their “snack bar” which was operated by a local company with premade sandwiches and the like, this was replaced by an actual full service pub/restaurant, as well as a make shift bar planned to be created on their skydeck observation facility.

The airport finally expanded from a 6000’ runway to about 6800’ a few years ago allowing for larger aircraft to operate in.

CHO gained a 717 flight (PM arrival / AM departure) operated by Delta to ATL with the expanded runway. This stirred up traffic a little bit for Delta, and they saw an increase from 2-3 flights a day with 50 seat jets to an operation of 4x CRJs and 1x 717 which was a steady increase. As DL phases out more CRJs I’m guessing that we will see more 2 class RJs take their place. Also seen this summer with DL was a return of the Cr7 dual class regional on the CHO-LGA route, this has been reduced down to a daily AM CRJ, but now looks to be a CR7/CR9 long term into Spring ‘18. The airport

US Air had a sizeable operation for years that it inherited from Piedmont, as a child there, I saw everything from 727s, DC-9s, 732/733/734s, MD-80s (when they were new!), and a ton of regional operations. The airport terminal itself was built to have a jetway (planned for the addition of a second jetway at Gate 5/6) for the mainline jets it received instead of operating out of the house size building that now houses the emergency response equipment and staff. However, 6 months after building the terminal (1994 maybe?) US Air was in trouble and downsized aircraft, and CHO saw nothing but Dash-8s, Saabs as well as the occasional J31/41

Over the next few years in the late 90s, a number of regionals pulled out or went belly up. In the end, AA/Eagle left after more than 30-40 years of operations. That left US Airways Express, United Express and Comair/DLX.

AA/Eagle finally came back with a daily flight to ORD, operated by SkyWest (i think), which was I think handled by DGS. The US/AA merger finally went through and this resulted in AA going to 3 flights a day to ORD, and 2 daily on the LGA route (although the worst departure times). Piedmont has started the change over to E145s and thus closed their pilot and FA base in CHO as well as a number of outstations. We’ve also seen AA upgauge dashs and CRJs to almost all flights being dual class CR7/CR9 aircraft.

United finally added a flight to ORD. It’s the oddest thing, NYC is one of the largest markets but they won’t add flights to EWR, their main transoceanic hub. In the 90s UAX had between 10-14 flights a day to IAD (all J31/41), now there are days where there are 2 scheduled flights to IAD and 1 to ORD. Previously there were days where there were on 2 flights to IAD and on saturdays there were only 1!

While I have no link I can tell you from the last time I saw the master plan about 5-7 years ago, the main points were:
-relocate EMS/Fire to West side of the field
-demolish old terminal facility
-creation of Cargo facility on West side of field
-build new tower on west side of field
-expand ground level gates south (over old terminal location)
-planned 2nd level expansion North to provide high level jetways

While it's doubtful CHO will see another carrier come in any time soon, the baggage area needs to be redone and the ticket counter area needs expansion at some point. They are seeing about a 40-70% increase in traffic every ten years which is awesome, hopefully that trend will continue.

I’m sure there is more to add but that’s all I have for you on the top of my head at this late hour...

vatveng wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

...
I had no idea they had cut RIC that much, but it's not surprising. Southwest has less service at ORF today than they did pre-merger. We still have MCO, BWI and MDW but they have cut frequencies. We also lost BNA, LAS and the token ATL flight they added right after the merger.
...

It’s not that surpising as over the years SW seems to have turned away from serving relatively short short direct hops between secondary markets towards the legacy airline model of trying to funnel as much traffic as possible through big hubs.

Also, since the early 2010s SW also dropped JAX, FLL and TPA and possibly other destinations besides the one you mentioned from ORF.

"I fly out of all 3 airports, and my experience at BWI has always been the best."

I also fly out of all three. Even though the walk from the United customer counter to the tip of the United wing of D concourse kills my arthritic knees, I find that BWI has the *least* offensive TSA people. Since I have to be patted down (leg braces) I find the BWI folks at least try not to be obnoxious. Most days the passengers reciprocate.

OTOH, I've actually heard the men at IAD *brag* about how hellishly unpleasant they'd been. It's the only airport *in the free world* where I've ever been undressed and searched, and I'm a million-miler. They see me coming and know that we have a hate-hate relationship, so *nothing* will ever improve. Yes, I actively *avoid* IAD when I can.

Only at IAD does being a Star Alliance Gold flyer carry no weight whatsoever.

BWI used to be great for business travel until they moved the rental car facility from right outside the terminal to BFE.

Did anyone happen to catch any pictures of the UA 744 farewell flight at IAD the other day? I took so many UA 747 flights from here, so it's quite sad to see that this one was the last.

atcsundevil wrote:

Did anyone happen to catch any pictures of the UA 744 farewell flight at IAD the other day? I took so many UA 747 flights from here, so it's quite sad to see that this one was the last.

Here are some links to photos and videos below.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/loca ... 84783.html
http://wjla.com/news/local/end-of-an-er ... -at-dulles
View from the ramp tower
https://www.instagram.com/p/Babtj8GAmqk ... hotography
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bak_fpqA5bq ... d_spotting
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bad6VUKHtyl ... =213353656
Pulling into the gate
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bac50IMnymC ... =213353656
Shot of flight path
https://www.instagram.com/p/BacWvUuF-h- ... =213353656
https://www.instagram.com/p/BacMiYyl_gr ... =213353656
Landing
https://www.instagram.com/p/BacK802AKyp ... =213353656
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bab3n1bDM3a ... =213353656
https://www.instagram.com/p/BabySxKBxF9 ... =213353656
Views inside the aircraft a couple days later
https://www.flickr.com/photos/airlinege ... 8221421294

I go to school in Roanoke, so I'm witnessing first hand the rise of the city, as described in several business articles recently. Currently the only mainline service is DL to Atlanta, in addition to regional carriers to ORD, IAD, PHL, CLT, LGA, and G4 to PIE and SFD. I've heard rumors the city was trying to attract service to Dallas, presumably on AA. I also know there is a large draw from New England, at least during the school year. I could see WN testing the waters into ROA-BWI/BOS/MHT/BDL.

CapitalAvGeek wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

Did anyone happen to catch any pictures of the UA 744 farewell flight at IAD the other day? I took so many UA 747 flights from here, so it's quite sad to see that this one was the last.

Here are some links to photos and videos below.

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/loca ... 84783.html
http://wjla.com/news/local/end-of-an-er ... -at-dulles
View from the ramp tower
https://www.instagram.com/p/Babtj8GAmqk ... hotography
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bak_fpqA5bq ... d_spotting
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bad6VUKHtyl ... =213353656
Pulling into the gate
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bac50IMnymC ... =213353656
Shot of flight path
https://www.instagram.com/p/BacWvUuF-h- ... =213353656
https://www.instagram.com/p/BacMiYyl_gr ... =213353656
Landing
https://www.instagram.com/p/BacK802AKyp ... =213353656
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bab3n1bDM3a ... =213353656
https://www.instagram.com/p/BabySxKBxF9 ... =213353656
Views inside the aircraft a couple days later
https://www.flickr.com/photos/airlinege ... 8221421294

That's awesome! Thank you for posting those. I'm not sure I'm a big fan of the sticker, especially since the 744s were never in that scheme, but I guess it was the cheaper option. I'm glad UA has done something though — it would have been very disappointing to see such an iconic aircraft fade into the distance without any fanfare.

BWIAirport wrote:

I go to school in Roanoke, so I'm witnessing first hand the rise of the city, as described in several business articles recently. Currently the only mainline service is DL to Atlanta, in addition to regional carriers to ORD, IAD, PHL, CLT, LGA, and G4 to PIE and SFD. I've heard rumors the city was trying to attract service to Dallas, presumably on AA. I also know there is a large draw from New England, at least during the school year. I could see WN testing the waters into ROA-BWI/BOS/MHT/BDL.

I see WN probably moving to bolster their RIC service first. I agree that ROA could probably support more service than it currently has. DL already services BOS from RIC, so I could see something similar with ROA. I don't know what kind of business ties exist, but that would certainly help. DFW is kind of a no brainer to me, even if it's just on a CRJ. I think the best chance at increased service in the short term is probably going to come from Allegiant though, and most likely headed to Florida.

The full agenda and attachments have been posted for this week's MWAA Board of Directors meeting:
http://www.mwaa.com/about/november-15-2 ... e-meetings

Some highlights. Air traffic stats:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... eports.pdf

DCA is up 1.4% YTD; IAD is up 4.5% YTD.

Airline business development report - summarizes some of the recent service additions at both airports:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... report.pdf

Status update on the DCA expansion project:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... ourney.pdf

Not a lot of new info here; but some pictures of the Hangar 11/12 demolition

Construction update on the Silver Line to Dulles:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... 0_2017.pdf

Some pictures here of the progress; including a few of the interior of the new station at Dulles and the progress in re-building the tunnel between the rail station and the terminal.

blockski wrote:

The full agenda and attachments have been posted for this week's MWAA Board of Directors meeting:
http://www.mwaa.com/about/november-15-2 ... e-meetings

Some highlights. Air traffic stats:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... eports.pdf

DCA is up 1.4% YTD; IAD is up 4.5% YTD.

Airline business development report - summarizes some of the recent service additions at both airports:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... report.pdf

Status update on the DCA expansion project:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... ourney.pdf

Not a lot of new info here; but some pictures of the Hangar 11/12 demolition

Construction update on the Silver Line to Dulles:
http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... 0_2017.pdf

Some pictures here of the progress; including a few of the interior of the new station at Dulles and the progress in re-building the tunnel between the rail station and the terminal.

Those are some pretty solid numbers for IAD despite a slight drop in numbers for UA.

Other notes for IAD:

• United (domestic) down 1.2% and a decrease to 39 destinations

• United increased capacity to 22 destinations including EWR, LGA, ORF

• United (international) down 7.1% due to drop in LF

• United maintains 61.5% market share (including regionals), down from 62.9% last year

• Frontier up 119.5% adding COS and LAS

• Southwest up nearly 15% due to new routes and added capacity

• Delta up 5.6% after SLC add and increase to ATL and DTW

• JetBlue down 13.5% after cuts to BOS and JFK in September

• Air France up 22% through up-gauge

• Icelandair up almost 35%

• Air China up 68.7%

• Royal Air Maroc started September of last year

• Air India new service started in July

It's good to see progress on the Silver Line — I've noticed some solid progress on the exteriors at the stations, and it looks like they're making some headway on laying track. Hopefully they don't face too many delays during the winter.

http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... report.pdf

Couple of things that popped out at me in the report included:
-Qatar Cargo operated six flights in October and November carrying cattle to Doha
-SkyWest is already serving CKB (Clarcksburg, WV) from IAD under essential air service and has bids for service to LWB ( Greenbriar Valley Airport in Lewisburg, WV) and SHD (Shenandoah Valley Regional Airport in VA)
-AA increasing service to SAV, MYR, PNS and VPS from DCA
-AA adding service from DCA to a number of smaller cities including TLH, LIT, MGM

Other things that have caught my attention.
I have noticed Etihad has been flying weekly flights from TUS-IAD-XCR-AUH. Is EY just stopping at IAD for fuel or actually picking up cargo. I know MWAA has expressed interest in upping cargo.

Also, I noticed that Frontier is slowly adding more and more destinations to IAD in the past year including AUS, SAT, COS, DEN, LAS and ORD this spring. Back in 2015 and 2014 Frontier had service to CVG, DTW, PBI, MSP, MEM, ATL, LAS, MCO and CUN. Frontier canceled all those destinations except MCO which still exists today. Now they are adding more flights again but to different destinations. It seems that they want to increase their presence in the Washington Area but are trying to figure out how to make it work. Frontier only serves DCA from DEN a couple flights a day and cannot expand without slots. They do not have service to BWI likely because of competition by low cost carriers Southwest and Sprint. Is it possible that Frontier is trying to build a focus city at IAD, or am I reading to far into this.

At around 5pm on Monday 11/13, The Richmond NBC affiliate, WWBT-12, tweeted that RIC was announcing a new airline on Tuesday, Nov 14, that will begin operations "starting in early 2018".
It did not specify which airline. Any ideas? Spirit? Frontier?

KRIC777 wrote:

At around 5pm on Monday 11/13, The Richmond NBC affiliate, WWBT-12, tweeted that RIC was announcing a new airline on Tuesday, Nov 14, that will begin operations "starting in early 2018".
It did not specify which airline. Any ideas? Spirit? Frontier?

Probably not F9, they would have announced any new stations during their last expansion. Spirit seems pretty likely since they just added CMH and are reportedly announcing more stations over the next week or so.

KRIC777 wrote:

At around 5pm on Monday 11/13, The Richmond NBC affiliate, WWBT-12, tweeted that RIC was announcing a new airline on Tuesday, Nov 14, that will begin operations "starting in early 2018".
It did not specify which airline. Any ideas? Spirit? Frontier?

I think those are both strong guesses. I would think Frontier is probably more likely, possibly to DEN. It'll be good to have more LCC/ULCC competition in the market if either of those proves to be the case.

CapitalAvGeek wrote:

Other things that have caught my attention.
I have noticed Etihad has been flying weekly flights from TUS-IAD-XCR-AUH. Is EY just stopping at IAD for fuel or actually picking up cargo. I know MWAA has expressed interest in upping cargo.

I believe these flights are to transport horses: https://www.etihadcargo.com/content/eag ... bles.html/

Apparently, this flight (EY990) will continue to operate weekly through at least Spring 2018 with 77F aircraft (the exception being a 74Y on Thanksgiving day).

The December MWAA Board of Directors meeting agenda and documents have been posted:

http://www.mwaa.com/about/december-13-2 ... e-meetings

Some points of note:

DCA Construction Updates: http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... ourney.pdf

Demolition of hangars 11 and 12 is just about complete; they'll be starting construction on the security mezzanines soon, which will impact the roadway on the arrivals level.

Silver Line phase 2 construction update (with lots of pictures including a few of the IAD rail station): http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... 1_2017.pdf

Air traffic stats: http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... eports.pdf

Through October, traffic at IAD is up 4.3%; traffic at DCA is up 1.7%.

MWAA's 2018 Budget: http://www.mwaa.com/sites/default/files ... budget.pdf

Lots of interesting stuff here; the link includes the presentation slides as well as the proposed budget document itself. MWAA's projected figures for 2018 show decreases in the CPE at both DCA and IAD; DCA's is expected to drop below $12, and IAD's to drop below $18.

What are chances of adding say, 6-8 new slots per day at DCA?

cheapgreek wrote:

What are chances of adding say, 6-8 new slots per day at DCA?

Hopefully slim, but you never know what itch Congress might want to scratch. Growth should go to IAD.

The MWAA has rightfully received a lot of grief about its profligate ways of the past, but they deserve some credit for getting IAD's CPE below $18 next year. Yes, some of that is due to Virginia's $25M contribution, but that's still a remarkable reduction over the past few years. May that decreased CPE result in some new service.

cheapgreek wrote:

What are chances of adding say, 6-8 new slots per day at DCA?

I don't see how. DCA arrivals get forced into holding regularly as it is — there's only so much the airport can handle in a one runway operation. Growth should go to IAD and BWI, which are far more efficient and capable operations.

cheapgreek wrote:

What are chances of adding say, 6-8 new slots per day at DCA?

While I'd love to see it because I think the stipulation would be a new destination and would probably (finally) get OKC a DCA flight, it just doesn't seem feasible/smart.

OKCDCA wrote:

cheapgreek wrote:

What are chances of adding say, 6-8 new slots per day at DCA?

While I'd love to see it because I think the stipulation would be a new destination and would probably (finally) get OKC a DCA flight, it just doesn't seem feasible/smart.

You're conflating beyond-perimeter slots with slots in general.

DCA doesn't have the capacity for adding any additional slots without severely impacting the operations of the airport. It's possible that the perimeter rule could be relaxed or eliminated and existing slots could be used for beyond-perimeter flights, but that's a different issue.

MWAA also has a term in the lease agreement for both DCA and IAD that allows them to opt out and renegotiate everything at both airports if the perimeter rule is repealed.

OKCDCA wrote:

cheapgreek wrote:

What are chances of adding say, 6-8 new slots per day at DCA?

While I'd love to see it because I think the stipulation would be a new destination and would probably (finally) get OKC a DCA flight, it just doesn't seem feasible/smart.

AA could add an OKC-DCA flight tomorrow as OKC is inside the perimeter. AA has plenty of slots. AA has recently announced new flights from DCA to VPS, TLH, MGM, PNS (2nd flight), so they have the slots.For whatever reason, AA doesn't seem to think OKC-DCA is as high of a priority.

As for more slots at DCA, I don't see a big push at this point, but you never know with Congress. Operationally however, additional slots will start to strain DCA and create more delays especially when weather conditions are less than optimal.