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Northwest1988
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Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:33 pm

Hello all!

What was the largest t-tailed rear engine aircraft? I’m assuming the VC10 or IL-62. The 727 probably was next.

Is there a reason why we are not seeing this design being used in newer airplanes? I remember watching a documentary once and they said the design is desirable due to the wings have the cleanest surface. Of course with the engines mounted at the rear I imagine the fuselage would have to be significantly stronger.

Could this design ever be practical in future aircraft again?

Thanks!
 
n797mx
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:59 pm

IL-62 is the largest believe. The largest strictly T-tail is the C-5.

You don't see it much in large aircraft because it requires strengthening of the tail structure which adds weight and complexity.

Business aircraft need T-tail since they are so low to the ground an A400/C-5 aircraft need the T-tail because of their cargo doors.

T-tails also perform worse in deep stalls.
Clear skies and strong tail winds.
 
Viper911
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:00 pm

Actually TU-154 is tad bigger than the 727, I'd guess it goes IL-62>VC-10>TU-154>727

Viper911
 
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14JDK
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:02 pm

I think the IL-76 has the largest T-tail. That or the C-5 Galaxy.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 pm

14JDK wrote:
I think the IL-76 has the largest T-tail. That or the C-5 Galaxy.


C-5 Galaxy for sure. The IL-76 isn't that big actually, i think the C-17 Globemaster (another T-tail) is larger than the IL-76. The C-5 is huge!

This makes the list as follows:

1. Lockheed C-5 Galaxy
2. Lockheed C-17 Globemaster
3. Ilyushin IL-62
4. Vickers VC-10
5. Ilyushin IL-76
6. Tupolev TU-154
7. Boeing 727-200
8. McDonnell-Douglas MD-90
 
IADCA
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:31 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
14JDK wrote:
I think the IL-76 has the largest T-tail. That or the C-5 Galaxy.


C-5 Galaxy for sure. The IL-76 isn't that big actually, i think the C-17 Globemaster (another T-tail) is larger than the IL-76. The C-5 is huge!

This makes the list as follows:

1. Lockheed C-5 Galaxy
2. Lockheed C-17 Globemaster
3. Ilyushin IL-62
4. Vickers VC-10
5. Ilyushin IL-76
6. Tupolev TU-154
7. Boeing 727-200
8. McDonnell-Douglas MD-90


Perhaps, but that wasn't what the OP asked. He specifically asked about rear-engined T-tails in both the title and the opening post, which leaves 1 and 2 still as the IL-62 and VC-10, followed by the TU-154 and 722.
 
Dominion301
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:49 pm

IADCA wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
14JDK wrote:
I think the IL-76 has the largest T-tail. That or the C-5 Galaxy.


C-5 Galaxy for sure. The IL-76 isn't that big actually, i think the C-17 Globemaster (another T-tail) is larger than the IL-76. The C-5 is huge!

This makes the list as follows:

1. Lockheed C-5 Galaxy
2. Lockheed C-17 Globemaster
3. Ilyushin IL-62
4. Vickers VC-10
5. Ilyushin IL-76
6. Tupolev TU-154
7. Boeing 727-200
8. McDonnell-Douglas MD-90


Perhaps, but that wasn't what the OP asked. He specifically asked about rear-engined T-tails in both the title and the opening post, which leaves 1 and 2 still as the IL-62 and VC-10, followed by the TU-154 and 722.


Yup indeed. Also for the VC-10, the standard VC-10 was about 4 metres shorter in length than the Super VC-10.
 
iRISH251
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:00 pm

The "Lockheed C-17" is a new one on me. Lockheed did produce the C-141 Starlifter, though.
 
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NYPECO
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:18 pm

n797mx wrote:
IL-62 is the largest believe. The largest strictly T-tail is the C-5.

You don't see it much in large aircraft because it requires strengthening of the tail structure which adds weight and complexity.

Business aircraft need T-tail since they are so low to the ground an A400/C-5 aircraft need the T-tail because of their cargo doors.

T-tails also perform worse in deep stalls.


How come the Falcon 2000 doesn't need a T-tail?
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:22 pm

Northwest1988 wrote:
Is there a reason why we are not seeing this design being used in newer airplanes? I remember watching a documentary once and they said the design is desirable due to the wings have the cleanest surface. Of course with the engines mounted at the rear I imagine the fuselage would have to be significantly stronger.

Could this design ever be practical in future aircraft again?

Thanks!


The wings may be aerodynamically cleaner, but most of the rest is worse, including (as you note) the need to reinforce the rear fuselage area to hold the engines in place.

IIRC (not an engineer, so only going off of what I've read elsewhere) there's also a benefit to having engines on the wings to counter the wings' tendency to want to bend upward with the lift generated during flight. Plus apparently stall recovery is more difficult in a T-tail because the wing disrupts the airflow to the horizontal stabilizer when it's that high up on the tail. Plus the simplicity of plumbing for fuel tanks when the engines are on the wings vs. the tail.

That's why you really only see this design on planes that have to sit low to the ground (business jets and RJs, where the door can flip out and be its own staircase), making wing-mounted engines impossible. For any other design, if wing-mounted engines are possible, that's where they go.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
Clydenairways
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:39 pm

Trident 3 probably comes in just slightly after the 727. Then the MD's after that
 
bradyj23
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:58 pm

NYPECO wrote:
n797mx wrote:
IL-62 is the largest believe. The largest strictly T-tail is the C-5.

You don't see it much in large aircraft because it requires strengthening of the tail structure which adds weight and complexity.

Business aircraft need T-tail since they are so low to the ground an A400/C-5 aircraft need the T-tail because of their cargo doors.

T-tails also perform worse in deep stalls.


How come the Falcon 2000 doesn't need a T-tail?


Falcon 2000 and really all of the Falcons (and some other biz jets) don't have a true t-tail but the elevator is still mounted pretty high up on the tail. It is above the engines. You are really moving the elevator up and out of the way so that it does not get blanketed by turbulent air coming off of the wings(usually in the case of a deep stall). In the case of the Falcons it is high enough off of the ground to be out of the way, but not so high up the tail that you would need extra unnecessary structure.
 
N626AA
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:12 pm

What is the largest prop T-tail built? Or top 3-5 variants in size rank like someone listed above.
A306 319 320 321 332 333 343 B722 733 734 735 737 738 744 752 762 763 772 773 DC93 DC1040 MD82/83/88 MD90 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9 E140 E145/45X DHQ3 ATR7
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:47 pm

N626AA wrote:
What is the largest prop T-tail built? Or top 3-5 variants in size rank like someone listed above.


Lockheed C-130 / L-100 Hercules I think.

iRISH251 wrote:
The "Lockheed C-17" is a new one on me. Lockheed did produce the C-141 Starlifter, though.


Oops, my mistake. Of course, we all know what a C-17 looks like regardless of who built it.
 
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ITMercure
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:52 pm

C-130 a T-Tail? I mean, really? OK, an inverted T Tail then...
 
Kilopond
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:18 pm

Nice thread! I think the Hawker Siddely Trident and the Yakovlev Yak-42 both deserve an honorable mention. Although they can't compete with the really big ships, they still were larger than certain regionals.

And let me also note that the Sud Aviation Caravelle was the biggest ever built cross-tailed plane. With rear-mounted engines, that is. :D
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:33 pm

Kilopond wrote:
And let me also note that the Sud Aviation Caravelle was the biggest ever built cross-tailed plane. With rear-mounted engines, that is. :D


The Caravelle is a t-tail. Just a lower-case t.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:41 pm

N626AA wrote:
What is the largest prop T-tail built? Or top 3-5 variants in size rank like someone listed above.


Pretty sure the A400M is the largest prop with T-tail. ATR-72 second?
 
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LAXdenizen
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:09 pm

Ekranoplan, anyone?
 
Cactus105
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:37 pm

Slug71 wrote:
N626AA wrote:
What is the largest prop T-tail built? Or top 3-5 variants in size rank like someone listed above.


Pretty sure the A400M is the largest prop with T-tail. ATR-72 second?


The Q400 is larger than the ATR I believe. Tail is like 2 feet higher, and the MTOW is higher, not mention its a longer airplane. You've gotta be correct on the A400M in spot number one though.
Wherever you go, there you are.
 
beechnut
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:45 pm

Clydenairways wrote:
Trident 3 probably comes in just slightly after the 727. Then the MD's after that


Largest Trident variant (3B) MGTOW = 150k lbs.

Largest MD-90 variant (ER) MGTOW = 168k lbs, so the biggest Mad Dog is just ahead of the Trident.

So: IL-62->Super VC-10->Std VC-10->TU-154M->TU-154->727-200ADV->200->100 (by 1000 lbs over the MD90)->MD90->MD83/88->Trident 3B->MD82/87->MD81->Yak-42->Boeing 717/MD95/DC9-51->DC9-41->DC9-30->TU134->Fokker F100->BAC111-500->BAC111-475->BAC111-300/400->DC9-20->Fokker 70->DC9-15->BAC111-200->Fokker F-28

The RJs are outside my scope clause :-), however the CRJ 1000 as an example, is 91.8 k lbs, 10.1k lbs heavier than a DC-8-15.

I think that's more or less the right order. All based on MGTOW except I could only find the empty weight for the Fokker 70. There might be individual variants that bump one over the other here and there. If I've goofed in the list, feel free to correct it.

Beech
 
KentB27
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:43 pm

As many have mentioned the il-62 is the largest T-tail aircraft with rear mounted engines. Also, a fun tidbit about the il-62, it was actually briefly the World's largest airliner before the Boeing 747 entered service.
 
KentB27
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:45 pm

LAXdenizen wrote:
Ekranoplan, anyone?


Those things are terrifying. Could you imagine how scary it would be to see one of those things whizzing past you, or even worse, heading right towards you?
 
Dominion301
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:10 am

KentB27 wrote:
As many have mentioned the il-62 is the largest T-tail aircraft with rear mounted engines. Also, a fun tidbit about the il-62, it was actually briefly the World's largest airliner before the Boeing 747 entered service.


Larger than the DC-8-61/63? Or is larger strictly referring to MTOW?
 
KentB27
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:12 am

Dominion301 wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
As many have mentioned the il-62 is the largest T-tail aircraft with rear mounted engines. Also, a fun tidbit about the il-62, it was actually briefly the World's largest airliner before the Boeing 747 entered service.


Larger than the DC-8-61/63? Or is larger strictly referring to MTOW?


Ah yes, I forgot about the DC-8. However, the il-62 does have a slightly higher MTOW than the DC-8-61/63 and its first flight was a few years before the DC-8-61/63 maiden flights. The DC-8-61/63 is about 13 feet longer though. Still, when the il-62 first flew in 1963 it was the largest airliner in the world at that time.
 
Clydenairways
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:32 am

beechnut wrote:
Clydenairways wrote:
Trident 3 probably comes in just slightly after the 727. Then the MD's after that


Largest Trident variant (3B) MGTOW = 150k lbs.

Largest MD-90 variant (ER) MGTOW = 168k lbs, so the biggest Mad Dog is just ahead of the Trident.

So: IL-62->Super VC-10->Std VC-10->TU-154M->TU-154->727-200ADV->200->100 (by 1000 lbs over the MD90)->MD90->MD83/88->Trident 3B->MD82/87->MD81->Yak-42->Boeing 717/MD95/DC9-51->DC9-41->DC9-30->TU134->Fokker F100->BAC111-500->BAC111-475->BAC111-300/400->DC9-20->Fokker 70->DC9-15->BAC111-200->Fokker F-28

The RJs are outside my scope clause :-), however the CRJ 1000 as an example, is 91.8 k lbs, 10.1k lbs heavier than a DC-8-15.

I think that's more or less the right order. All based on MGTOW except I could only find the empty weight for the Fokker 70. There might be individual variants that bump one over the other here and there. If I've goofed in the list, feel free to correct it.

Beech
don't forget the DC9-50 as well, to your list
 
Clydenairways
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:35 am

KentB27 wrote:
As many have mentioned the il-62 is the largest T-tail aircraft with rear mounted engines. Also, a fun tidbit about the il-62, it was actually briefly the World's largest airliner before the Boeing 747 entered service.


I think the huge 4 engined prop TU114 even trumped the il62 in MTOW.
 
WIederling
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:53 am

Clydenairways wrote:
KentB27 wrote:
As many have mentioned the il-62 is the largest T-tail aircraft with rear mounted engines. Also, a fun tidbit about the il-62, it was actually briefly the World's largest airliner before the Boeing 747 entered service.


I think the huge 4 engined prop TU114 even trumped the il62 in MTOW.


IL62 :: 165t MTOW

TU114 :: 164t..175t MTOW (numbers vary. The long range variant 114D : 185t )

Then, the IL62 is a T-Tail rear engined airframe. the TU114 not. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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blackbox67
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:57 am

maybe one could also take this one into consideration:

Image

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea_Monster

Can it be called an aeroplane ? At least it got fully airborne by ground effect and had 2 of its 10 engines mounted in the tail.
 
bunumuring
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:31 am

blackbox67,
Thanks for your contribution!
I had forgotten about the Caspian Sea Monster! There was a great tv documentary about it and it's brethren years ago. I think it looks more like a Gerry Anderson 'Thunderbirds' creation than an actual plane!
I guess the Super-Super VC-10 proposals (including the ahead-of-it's-time double deck VC-10) would have been the biggest rear-enginedT-tail jets if the British government of the time had had more vision...
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:25 pm

beechnut wrote:
So: IL-62->Super VC-10->Std VC-10->TU-154M->TU-154->727-200ADV->200->100 (by 1000 lbs over the MD90)->MD90->MD83/88->Trident 3B->MD82/87->MD81->Yak-42->Boeing 717/MD95/DC9-51->DC9-41->DC9-30->TU134->Fokker F100->BAC111-500->BAC111-475->BAC111-300/400->DC9-20->Fokker 70->DC9-15->BAC111-200->Fokker F-28
Beech

Thanks Beech. I think we are missing only the mother of all tail-blowers, the Sud Aviation Caravelle. Four major versions were produced named Mk.III, Mk.VI, Mk.10 and Mk.12 with MTOW in the 46,000 to 56,000 kg range. (With few planes of other subtypes, mostly later converted to one of the four versions mentioned above).

Edit: Aaaach! A high tailplane, but not really a T-tail. :banghead:
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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aerolimani
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:12 am

hOMSaR wrote:
The wings may be aerodynamically cleaner, but most of the rest is worse, including (as you note) the need to reinforce the rear fuselage area to hold the engines in place.

IIRC (not an engineer, so only going off of what I've read elsewhere) there's also a benefit to having engines on the wings to counter the wings' tendency to want to bend upward with the lift generated during flight. Plus apparently stall recovery is more difficult in a T-tail because the wing disrupts the airflow to the horizontal stabilizer when it's that high up on the tail. Plus the simplicity of plumbing for fuel tanks when the engines are on the wings vs. the tail.

That's why you really only see this design on planes that have to sit low to the ground (business jets and RJs, where the door can flip out and be its own staircase), making wing-mounted engines impossible. For any other design, if wing-mounted engines are possible, that's where they go.

Also, on a large plane, it puts the engines way up high, which makes maintenance more difficult. It’s one reason why the wing-mounted 4-holers have lasted so long in comparison to their 3-engine brethren.
 
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tjcab
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:29 am

Northwest1988 wrote:
...t-tailed rear engine aircraft...


IADCA wrote:
Perhaps, but that wasn't what the OP asked. He specifically asked about rear-engined T-tails in both the title and the opening post...


Not sure why we are still discussing aircraft without rear engines. Seems like a very straightforward question.
 
beechnut
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Re: Largest T-tail, rear engine aircraft

Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:57 am

Clydenairways wrote:
beechnut wrote:
Clydenairways wrote:
Trident 3 probably comes in just slightly after the 727. Then the MD's after that


Largest Trident variant (3B) MGTOW = 150k lbs.

Largest MD-90 variant (ER) MGTOW = 168k lbs, so the biggest Mad Dog is just ahead of the Trident.

So: IL-62->Super VC-10->Std VC-10->TU-154M->TU-154->727-200ADV->200->100 (by 1000 lbs over the MD90)->MD90->MD83/88->Trident 3B->MD82/87->MD81->Yak-42->Boeing 717/MD95/DC9-51->DC9-41->DC9-30->TU134->Fokker F100->BAC111-500->BAC111-475->BAC111-300/400->DC9-20->Fokker 70->DC9-15->BAC111-200->Fokker F-28

The RJs are outside my scope clause :-), however the CRJ 1000 as an example, is 91.8 k lbs, 10.1k lbs heavier than a DC-8-15.

I think that's more or less the right order. All based on MGTOW except I could only find the empty weight for the Fokker 70. There might be individual variants that bump one over the other here and there. If I've goofed in the list, feel free to correct it.

Beech
don't forget the DC9-50 as well, to your list


It's in there if you look closely, it's the same MGTOW as the 717/MD95.

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