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qf789
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Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:33 pm

Boeing has reported its third quarter deliveries today. The third quarter saw 202 aircraft delivered

737 x 145
747 x 4
767 x 2
777 x 16
787 x 35

For the year so far Boeing has delivered 554 aircraft

737 x 381
747 x 8
767 x 7
777 x 58
787 x 100

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-10-05- ... Deliveries
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kitplane01
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:10 am

qf789 wrote:
Boeing has reported its third quarter deliveries today. The third quarter saw 202 aircraft delivered

737 x 145
747 x 4
767 x 2
777 x 16
787 x 35

For the year so far Boeing has delivered 554 aircraft

737 x 381
747 x 8
767 x 7
777 x 58
787 x 100

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/2017-10-05- ... Deliveries


Can someone comment on the economics of building 767's at such a slow rate? I understand it's a mostly military program, but those have economical production rates too.
 
pugman211
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:20 am

These are deliveries, not production rates.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:21 am

According from reports from 2015 the 767 production rate will grow from 1.5 per month to 2.5 per month right about now. The deliveries are not following the production as the tankers are not yet being delivered.

With such a mature program, and only building 2 very specific standard versions of the 767 the production costs of the frames should still be profitable at such a low rate. Not looking at the development and production costs of specific military parts for the tankers of course.
 
CWizard
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:24 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
....Can someone comment on the economics of building 767's at such a slow rate? I understand it's a mostly military program, but those have economical production rates too.


IIRC, all 7 of those 767s went to FedEx Express and there are a few dozen more yet to be built.
 
VC10er
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:59 pm

The venerable 767. Makes me happy to read there are a few dozen more coming. Too bad there won’t ever be any more pax versions.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
racercoup
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:03 pm

Amazing numbers !!! Boeing 787 deliveries almost match the total deliveries of all (3) Airbus wide body programs.
 
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qf789
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:08 pm

racercoup wrote:
Amazing numbers !!! Boeing 787 deliveries almost match the total deliveries of all (3) Airbus wide body programs.


There have also been 4 787's delivered this month so far (789's to LY, NH, AA and NZ) along with another 2 (AI-788 and QF-789 ready for delivery)
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Super80Fan
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:10 pm

Oh look, none of them are 100-120 seat aircraft. Gee, huh, that's funny.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
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lightsaber
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:15 pm

CWizard wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
....Can someone comment on the economics of building 767's at such a slow rate? I understand it's a mostly military program, but those have economical production rates too.


IIRC, all 7 of those 767s went to FedEx Express and there are a few dozen more yet to be built.

I would be surprised if Amazon doesn't order at least 25 new 767s. The line has life left in it.

When production goes up to 30 per year, the economics will improve.

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CX747
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:25 am

I agree that Amazon will at some point order new build 767s. At some point the pool of quality used 767-300s will dry up.

Congrats to Boeing on what has been a successful year so far. The first Max series aircraft are on the line without any major shakeups. Kudos to the testing teams.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:38 am

CX747 wrote:
I agree that Amazon will at some point order new build 767s. At some point the pool of quality used 767-300s will dry up.

Congrats to Boeing on what has been a successful year so far. The first Max series aircraft are on the line without any major shakeups. Kudos to the testing teams.


How can that be? What's the trip cost between an A330 and a 767? I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:41 am

kitplane01 wrote:
I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767.


reconsider!
The "A330 used" price tag is known "767 new" not. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767.


reconsider!
The "A330 used" price tag is known "767 new" not. :-)


I'm so sorry. I don't even know what that means. But a 6 year old A330 can be bought for less than $40M.
See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361025&p=19499831&hilit=price+777+330#p19499831
 
CX747
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:17 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
CX747 wrote:
I agree that Amazon will at some point order new build 767s. At some point the pool of quality used 767-300s will dry up.

Congrats to Boeing on what has been a successful year so far. The first Max series aircraft are on the line without any major shakeups. Kudos to the testing teams.


How can that be? What's the trip cost between an A330 and a 767? I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767.


Not to get too off track...The Amazon operation is actually flown by 3 seperate cargo carriers (ATI, ABX and Atlas). All 3 of those operator are 767 operators who have increased their fleets in large numbers over the past year plus. Amazon is looking at running 40 second hand 767-200/300F aircraft right now with eyes on larger expansion.

That expansion will more than likely be focused on the 767 as it's backbone. There has been some talk of 777s but that is just rumors. New 767 frames from Boeing come into play if Amazon's appetite/size outstrips the second hand market for 767s.

Again, congrats to Boeing on a great year so far.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:23 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767.


reconsider!
The "A330 used" price tag is known "767 new" not. :-)


I'm so sorry. I don't even know what that means.

your answer firms that up. :-)

But a 6 year old A330 can be bought for less than $40M.
See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361025&p=19499831&hilit=price+777+330#p19499831


What I said. pricing for used A330 is (well) known.

Now what is the price tag on _new 767 freighter_ ?
Rumor has it you pay equal or less than for a new 737NG !? ( IMU that would be less than those $40m
you mention for a used A330.

which kills:
"I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767."
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:54 pm

WIederling wrote:
Now what is the price tag on _new 767 freighter_ ?
Rumor has it you pay equal or less than for a new 737NG !? ( IMU that would be less than those $40m
you mention for a used A330.

which kills:
"I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767."

To be frank that "rumor" would have more validity coming from just about anyone on this forum except you.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:01 pm

Polot wrote:
WIederling wrote:
which kills:
"I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767."

To be frank that "rumor" would have more validity coming from just about anyone on this forum except you.


You have a general understanding what "rumor" and a "?" indicate?

The given postulation
"used A330 @$40m + conversion ( $??m ) << 767 freighter, new @$40..80m"
still is lacking.
( 80m would be the estimated upper limit ( avitas? in article from Dominic Gates )
( 40m be the lower limit )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:13 pm

WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

reconsider!
The "A330 used" price tag is known "767 new" not. :-)


I'm so sorry. I don't even know what that means.

your answer firms that up. :-)

But a 6 year old A330 can be bought for less than $40M.
See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361025&p=19499831&hilit=price+777+330#p19499831


What I said. pricing for used A330 is (well) known.

Now what is the price tag on _new 767 freighter_ ?
Rumor has it you pay equal or less than for a new 737NG !? ( IMU that would be less than those $40m
you mention for a used A330.

which kills:
"I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767."



I don't think that's right. "A new Boeing 767-300 freighter carries a list price of $199.3 million. Even after the usual discount to list prices, a new plane likely would cost at least $100 million. "( http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-mu ... 2015-12-19)

A used A330 costs as little as $14million before conversion (viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361025&p=19499831&hilit=price+777+330#p19499831)

If you have access to a brand new 767 for less than $50 million, please let me know. But I doubt that's true.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:19 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
If you have access to a brand new 767 for less than $50 million, please let me know. But I doubt that's true.


As cited by Dominic Gates Avitas estimates the deal at $4.3b for 50 ( ~= $86m/per frame) frames following the established _usual_ rebates in the market.
Fedex (like LH ) is known for swooping in on very advantageous offers. i.e. they definitely did not pay $86m per frame.
Murphy is an optimist
 
VC10er
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:28 pm

If Boeing can get the 767 to hover over your lawn they will surely get buy them :-)
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:05 am

WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
If you have access to a brand new 767 for less than $50 million, please let me know. But I doubt that's true.


As cited by Dominic Gates Avitas estimates the deal at $4.3b for 50 ( ~= $86m/per frame) frames following the established _usual_ rebates in the market.
Fedex (like LH ) is known for swooping in on very advantageous offers. i.e. they definitely did not pay $86m per frame.


So the very professional aviation writer says it's about 86 million per frame, and you conclude it's less. Because that's just not what he wrote. He wrote they cost about $86 million per frame.

Right now I don't believe you. And uncited rumors are unconvincing. Can you provide an article written by someone respectable that says a much smaller number. Perhaps with a URL so we can read it.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:44 am

kitplane01 wrote:
So the very professional aviation writer says it's about 86 million per frame, and you conclude it's less. Because that's just not what he wrote. He wrote they cost about $86 million per frame.


A Wrong attribution you make there.
Neither "list" nor "established rebates applied" are in any way values
attributable to what Fedex has signed on.

Dominic Gates writes:
"The firm order is worth almost $10 billion at list prices, though
according to pricing data from aircraft valuation firm Avitas,
the order’s value is about $4.2 billion after standard discounts."

and continues:
"FedEx, which has historically bought airplanes cheaply nearing the
end of their production life, likely got an even better deal.
“"I will only say, the terms are very favorable,"”
said FedEx spokesman Jess Bunn."

link:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... hter-jets/

That imho is better information than all the "will buy 777, will buy 787" postulations
that are never questioned from the nagginista ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:44 am

WIederling wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
So the very professional aviation writer says it's about 86 million per frame, and you conclude it's less. Because that's just not what he wrote. He wrote they cost about $86 million per frame.


A Wrong attribution you make there.
Neither "list" nor "established rebates applied" are in any way values
attributable to what Fedex has signed on.

Dominic Gates writes:
"The firm order is worth almost $10 billion at list prices, though
according to pricing data from aircraft valuation firm Avitas,
the order’s value is about $4.2 billion after standard discounts."

and continues:
"FedEx, which has historically bought airplanes cheaply nearing the
end of their production life, likely got an even better deal.
“"I will only say, the terms are very favorable,"”
said FedEx spokesman Jess Bunn."

link:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... hter-jets/

That imho is better information than all the "will buy 777, will buy 787" postulations
that are never questioned from the nagginista ?


I'm asking again. Can you provide any article written by anyone respectable that says a 767 new can be bought for less than $50 million? Because there are lots of articles by respectable people that says it costs more.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:52 am

kitplane01 wrote:
CX747 wrote:
I agree that Amazon will at some point order new build 767s. At some point the pool of quality used 767-300s will dry up.

Congrats to Boeing on what has been a successful year so far. The first Max series aircraft are on the line without any major shakeups. Kudos to the testing teams.


How can that be? What's the trip cost between an A330 and a 767? I ask because used A330s are available, and cost much less than a brand new 767.

FEDEX has flown A310's and if they've ordered new build B767's they must want matched airplanes they can have configured to their specifications to reduce their parts inventory and streamline their operation and equipment.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing Reports 3Q deliveries

Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:01 am

kitplane01 wrote:
But a 6 year old A330 can be bought for less than $40M.
See viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1361025&p=19499831&hilit=price+777+330#p19499831


And an older one for less...

Now add in the conversion cost.

Then consider how often the freighter is expected to be used and for how long... A conversion (A330/B767) makes sense for lower utilization rates. A new Freighter makes sense for higher utilization rates or expected long lives.

Commonality with other aircraft in the fleet also is a factor (the extra cost for a few oddball planes can be high).

Since Amazon seems to be building their freighter operations around the B767... I would expect that B767s will be the future aircraft as well.... even if they have to buy some of them new. Any new freighters will just be put on routes with high utilization rates...

Have a great day,

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