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voxkel
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AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:35 am

Per booking engines, AI103 DEL-IAD and AI104 IAD-DEL are now operated on the 777-300ER. I couldn't find any source formally announcing this, but all booking engines confirm that the flight is on the 777-300ER.

What type of weight restrictions would the 77W have in order to do DEL-IAD nonstop? I understand this route is longer than even ORD.
 
GamingPolaris
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:54 am

Possibly freeing up Boeing 77L to launch either IAH or DFW.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:40 am

voxkel wrote:
Per booking engines, AI103 DEL-IAD and AI104 IAD-DEL are now operated on the 777-300ER. I couldn't find any source formally announcing this, but all booking engines confirm that the flight is on the 777-300ER.

What type of weight restrictions would the 77W have in order to do DEL-IAD nonstop? I understand this route is longer than even ORD.

It's already on the 77W. I don't know if today (Saturday) was the first day or if it switched earlier than that, but I noticed the 77W climbing out this morning. I was curious if maybe it was a sub or if they had already bumped up the 77W, so obviously it seems to be the latter. I guess the flight has been successful thus far. I don't know about weight restrictions, but if they don't currently take a penalty on NYC flights, I doubt they'd take one to IAD (although they may in the winter with stronger headwinds). The difference is only about 150nm.
 
AirIndia111
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:50 am

Its a temporary upgrade since VT-ALG went into maintenance on October 5th, so they are down to only 2x 77L's which are used for the SFO route.

IAD will go back to the 77L beginning 29th October!
 
devmapper
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:15 am

I doubt AI would be making any long term changes to its plans while the GoI is trying to sell it. AI was to have started DEL-LAX by October, but so far I haven't heard any announcements or schedule uploads.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:08 pm

They need the 77L to start LAX, that's probably why. Even though AI would need to restrict DEL-IAD (like it probably already does on DEL-ORD), 77W is more dense than 77L, and 77L is too premium of a configuration for most routes AI flies IMO. So a restricted 77W may not be that much less economical than operating a 77L.

From what I understand, the 77L does not need any weight restrictions to make DEL-SFO nonstop. I imagine the same is true for LAX. What AI should do before starting LAX (and using all 77Ls again) is to remove first class and downsize business class (ie upgrade the interiors). But keeping the 3-3-3 economy would be nice!
 
atal17
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:05 pm

AirIndia111 wrote:
IAD will go back to the 77L beginning 29th October!


That's no longer true as airlineroute is reporting AI will maintain B777-300ER for the entire Winter Season.

https://twitter.com/airlineroute/status ... 6482994177

Therefore, its more likely that Los Angeles is expected to come online sometime during the Winter Season..
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:13 pm

AirIndia111 wrote:
Its a temporary upgrade since VT-ALG went into maintenance on October 5th, so they are down to only 2x 77L's which are used for the SFO route.

IAD will go back to the 77L beginning 29th October!


I saw a 77W for Air India in Star Alliance scheme Sep 28th in SFO, was that just a sub then?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:30 pm

Irehdna wrote:
They need the 77L to start LAX, that's probably why. Even though AI would need to restrict DEL-IAD (like it probably already does on DEL-ORD), 77W is more dense than 77L, and 77L is too premium of a configuration for most routes AI flies IMO. So a restricted 77W may not be that much less economical than operating a 77L.

From what I understand, the 77L does not need any weight restrictions to make DEL-SFO nonstop. I imagine the same is true for LAX. What AI should do before starting LAX (and using all 77Ls again) is to remove first class and downsize business class (ie upgrade the interiors). But keeping the 3-3-3 economy would be nice!


The AI 77W Y seat is 31"/18" generally, while the AI B788 Y seat is 33"/17". Even though it would be 3-4-3, why not put the B788 seats in the B77W and turn the B77Ws into 5-class planes?. To further lighten the plane, have a W cabin as well. Such would allow for restrictions to be eased on payload. A configuration I would propose would be: F4-J42-W40-Y+50-Y162, 3-4-3 in Y+ and Y, with 33"/17" in Y, 36'-37"/17" in Y+, and 38"/19" in W. (For comparison, the current configuration is F4J35Y303). The FA count would also be reduced by two (for routes to the USA, I would presume that 2 complete crews would be needed---12 FAs and 4 pilots here instead of 14 FAs and 4 pilots) with a seat count of 298 instead of 342, allowing for more belly cargo.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:44 pm

Seems AI could have used some of the 77Ls they gave to EY.
 
devmapper
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:48 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Seems AI could have used some of the 77Ls they gave to EY.

AI's small subfleet of 77Ls (8 aircraft at its peak) was ostensibly bought specifically for North American routes. Unfortunately, AI's merger with the erstwhile IC along with the global recession put brakes on any expansion plans. Utilization rates on the 77Ls were terrible, and it made sense when AI sold 5 frames to EY. While the DEL-SFO flight was a long time coming, I don't think anyone expected AI to try and expand so aggressively on US routes.

AI still has to take delivery of 3 77W. Hopefully, AI would benefit from any weight savings Boeing might have managed to extract from the frames in the last decade.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:53 pm

devmapper wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Seems AI could have used some of the 77Ls they gave to EY.

AI's small subfleet of 77Ls (8 aircraft at its peak) was ostensibly bought specifically for North American routes. Unfortunately, AI's merger with the erstwhile IC along with the global recession put brakes on any expansion plans. Utilization rates on the 77Ls were terrible, and it made sense when AI sold 5 frames to EY. While the DEL-SFO flight was a long time coming, I don't think anyone expected AI to try and expand so aggressively on US routes.

AI still has to take delivery of 3 77W. Hopefully, AI would benefit from any weight savings Boeing might have managed to extract from the frames in the last decade.


I understand why they got rid of them, just saying how they could have really used them now that things are going up.
 
devmapper
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:58 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Irehdna wrote:
They need the 77L to start LAX, that's probably why. Even though AI would need to restrict DEL-IAD (like it probably already does on DEL-ORD), 77W is more dense than 77L, and 77L is too premium of a configuration for most routes AI flies IMO. So a restricted 77W may not be that much less economical than operating a 77L.

From what I understand, the 77L does not need any weight restrictions to make DEL-SFO nonstop. I imagine the same is true for LAX. What AI should do before starting LAX (and using all 77Ls again) is to remove first class and downsize business class (ie upgrade the interiors). But keeping the 3-3-3 economy would be nice!


The AI 77W Y seat is 31"/18" generally, while the AI B788 Y seat is 33"/17". Even though it would be 3-4-3, why not put the B788 seats in the B77W and turn the B77Ws into 5-class planes?. To further lighten the plane, have a W cabin as well. Such would allow for restrictions to be eased on payload. A configuration I would propose would be: F4-J42-W40-Y+50-Y162, 3-4-3 in Y+ and Y, with 33"/17" in Y, 36'-37"/17" in Y+, and 38"/19" in W. (For comparison, the current configuration is F4J35Y303). The FA count would also be reduced by two (for routes to the USA, I would presume that 2 complete crews would be needed---12 FAs and 4 pilots here instead of 14 FAs and 4 pilots) with a seat count of 298 instead of 342, allowing for more belly cargo.


I wish AI management had the foresight to plan for an interior refresh. AI currently has no need for an F product, and could do well with a refreshed C class. I can see the potential for some W class demand, especially on the 12-14 hour flights to the US, but that is too much to hope for.

Incidentally, I've flown AI 77Ws out of ORD, and the seat pitch appears to be 32" which was tolerable, even on a 12 hour flight. 31" is uncomfortable for me, as I discovered flying DL AMS-JFK.
 
devmapper
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:59 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
devmapper wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Seems AI could have used some of the 77Ls they gave to EY.

AI's small subfleet of 77Ls (8 aircraft at its peak) was ostensibly bought specifically for North American routes. Unfortunately, AI's merger with the erstwhile IC along with the global recession put brakes on any expansion plans. Utilization rates on the 77Ls were terrible, and it made sense when AI sold 5 frames to EY. While the DEL-SFO flight was a long time coming, I don't think anyone expected AI to try and expand so aggressively on US routes.

AI still has to take delivery of 3 77W. Hopefully, AI would benefit from any weight savings Boeing might have managed to extract from the frames in the last decade.


I understand why they got rid of them, just saying how they could have really used them now that things are going up.


Yeah, but when they sold them, no one, including AI management thought they'd actually turn around their North American ops. I think a few commenters here have mentioned that AI's US flights are either profitable or break-even, with the exception of the AMD-LHR-EWR flight.
 
Antarius
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:03 pm

devmapper wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
Irehdna wrote:
They need the 77L to start LAX, that's probably why. Even though AI would need to restrict DEL-IAD (like it probably already does on DEL-ORD), 77W is more dense than 77L, and 77L is too premium of a configuration for most routes AI flies IMO. So a restricted 77W may not be that much less economical than operating a 77L.

From what I understand, the 77L does not need any weight restrictions to make DEL-SFO nonstop. I imagine the same is true for LAX. What AI should do before starting LAX (and using all 77Ls again) is to remove first class and downsize business class (ie upgrade the interiors). But keeping the 3-3-3 economy would be nice!


The AI 77W Y seat is 31"/18" generally, while the AI B788 Y seat is 33"/17". Even though it would be 3-4-3, why not put the B788 seats in the B77W and turn the B77Ws into 5-class planes?. To further lighten the plane, have a W cabin as well. Such would allow for restrictions to be eased on payload. A configuration I would propose would be: F4-J42-W40-Y+50-Y162, 3-4-3 in Y+ and Y, with 33"/17" in Y, 36'-37"/17" in Y+, and 38"/19" in W. (For comparison, the current configuration is F4J35Y303). The FA count would also be reduced by two (for routes to the USA, I would presume that 2 complete crews would be needed---12 FAs and 4 pilots here instead of 14 FAs and 4 pilots) with a seat count of 298 instead of 342, allowing for more belly cargo.


I wish AI management had the foresight to plan for an interior refresh. AI currently has no need for an F product, and could do well with a refreshed C class. I can see the potential for some W class demand, especially on the 12-14 hour flights to the US, but that is too much to hope for.

Incidentally, I've flown AI 77Ws out of ORD, and the seat pitch appears to be 32" which was tolerable, even on a 12 hour flight. 31" is uncomfortable for me, as I discovered flying DL AMS-JFK.


They would be better off taking a step all the way back and re-do their cabins completely (design as well as choice of equipment).

Flew BOM-SIN a few months ago on a 788 and between the piss poor cabin condition and the layout, it was a flight to be forgotten.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:07 pm

Antarius wrote:
Flew BOM-SIN a few months ago .


Why? EK ID90 bump???
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:19 pm

devmapper wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Seems AI could have used some of the 77Ls they gave to EY.

AI's small subfleet of 77Ls (8 aircraft at its peak) was ostensibly bought specifically for North American routes.


I think much of it had to do with them intending to operate/start operations on nonstop flights to US from BOM/BLR instead of only DEL, ex. BOM-JFK, BOM-ORD, BLR-SFO. I know BOM-JFK was flown, I don't know if BOM-ORD was ever flown nonstop, I do know BLR-SFO was never nonstop.

The distance from USA to DEL vs BOM/BLR makes a big difference in the viability of the 77L vs. 77W. IIRC both BOM-JFK/ORD are longer than DEL-SFO by GC distance. I would say AI consolidating at DEL was a very good idea, instead of running multiple hubs.
Last edited by Irehdna on Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
voxkel
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:24 pm

Irehdna wrote:
I don't know if BOM-ORD was ever flown nonstop.


I think they had a flight ORD-FRA-BOM AI144 but I don't think they flew it nonstop. Pre-2010 only NA nonstops were DEL/BOM-JFK.
 
AirIndia111
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:31 pm

atal17 wrote:
That's no longer true as airlineroute is reporting AI will maintain B777-300ER for the entire Winter Season.
.


Yes, that seems to have changed since my last post and is reflected on the AI website as well.

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
I saw a 77W for Air India in Star Alliance scheme Sep 28th in SFO, was that just a sub then?


Yes, just a one off since SFO continues to be on the 77L.

By the way, what does AI plan to do with all these excess 77W's? On the best of days, they use only 9/12 77W's !!!
Last edited by AirIndia111 on Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:37 pm

AirIndia111 wrote:

By the way, what does AI plan to do with all these excess 77W's? On the best of days, they use only 8/12 77W's !!!


Sell them, probably. Perhaps a Deja-Vu to their sale of the 77Ls. Many airlines are still looking to add B77W to their fleet because it fits their immediate needs better.

DEL-BOS and maybe DEL-SEA are the only two India-NA markets (with significant demand without nonstop service), that can be flown from DEL with 77W. I don't see either happening anytime soon, at least before AI gets their B789.

Perhaps they could densify the 77W and run it on shorter routes. However, this would require a small sub-fleet of denser 77Ws, which is not economically efficient.
 
AirIndia111
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:20 pm

Irehdna wrote:
Perhaps they could densify the 77W and run it on shorter routes. However, this would require a small sub-fleet of denser 77Ws, which is not economically efficient.


They already use a 77W 2x daily on the Delhi - Chennai route. They also need to ensure that all 12x 77W's are in flying condition. I just checked, VT-ALN last flew on May 18th and VT-ALQ last flew on July 1st!
 
Antarius
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:58 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Flew BOM-SIN a few months ago .


Why? EK ID90 bump???


I didn't realize EK flew BOM-SIN. Yawn.

Regardless, compared to DEL-SIN on 9W and SIN-KUL-DEL on MH.. AI was embarrassingly bad. A full cabin redesign would be a good idea. Maybe densify some 77W (remove F) and fix their J.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:51 pm

Irehdna wrote:
AirIndia111 wrote:

By the way, what does AI plan to do with all these excess 77W's? On the best of days, they use only 8/12 77W's !!!


Sell them, probably. Perhaps a Deja-Vu to their sale of the 77Ls. Many airlines are still looking to add B77W to their fleet because it fits their immediate needs better.

DEL-BOS and maybe DEL-SEA are the only two India-NA markets (with significant demand without nonstop service), that can be flown from DEL with 77W. I don't see either happening anytime soon, at least before AI gets their B789.

Perhaps they could densify the 77W and run it on shorter routes. However, this would require a small sub-fleet of denser 77Ws, which is not economically efficient.


They won't get more than $35M each. In a year or two, AI's entire 777 fleet will be fully paid off.

Biggest mistake AI making is not cancelling remaining 3x77Ws. Assuming purchase price of $130M, as soon as AI takes delivery they will be $80M-$100M FMV. Will have a hard time to Sale and Lease Back.
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CaliguyNYC
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:15 pm

2 of the new 77W (or 2 older 77W) will go to the government for VIP. So Ai is just getting one more. They will add LAX. They also will increase frequency of IAD and/or LAX if those routes work. They can also start 3X EWR-DEL to supplement EWR-BOM
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:28 pm

Irrespective of who gets what, AI gets saddled with $480 Million additional debt. With $1B working capital loan it took last month, total debt should be close to $9.5 Billion.
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voxkel
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:13 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
2 of the new 77W (or 2 older 77W) will go to the government for VIP. So Ai is just getting one more. They will add LAX. They also will increase frequency of IAD and/or LAX if those routes work. They can also start 3X EWR-DEL to supplement EWR-BOM


I actually don't think EWR-DEL is a good idea. Most of NJ population is from BOM/AMD not DEL, and there is already UA DEL-EWR and AI DEL-JFK.

I don't know why AI chose to do AMD-LHR-EWR flight instead of AMD-LHR solely, and keep AMD-BOM-EWR. I don't see why anybody would prefer a same-plane service on AMD-LHR-EWR vs AMD-BOM-EWR, given the timings AMD-BOM-EWR had. AMD-LHR-EWR would take off at 04:40 and land at AMD at 02:30, vs early evening departure/arrival on a flight via BOM. Also, I imagine besides connecting pax from AMD, LHR-EWR is very low-yielding on AI and is often placed as a budget option vs UA/BA/VS.

IMO AI should either a) axe LHR-EWR, and resume AMD-BOM-EWR, or b) do 4x BOM-AMD-EWR and 3x BOM-EWR nonstop.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:23 pm

voxkel wrote:
IMO AI should either a) axe LHR-EWR, and resume AMD-BOM-EWR, or b) do 4x BOM-AMD-EWR and 3x BOM-EWR nonstop.


Last time I checked both AMD-LHR and LHR-EWR are doing very well.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Irehdna
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:05 pm

voxkel wrote:
I actually don't think EWR-DEL is a good idea. Most of NJ population is from BOM/AMD not DEL, and there is already UA DEL-EWR and AI DEL-JFK.

I don't know why AI chose to do AMD-LHR-EWR flight instead of AMD-LHR solely, and keep AMD-BOM-EWR. I don't see why anybody would prefer a same-plane service on AMD-LHR-EWR vs AMD-BOM-EWR, given the timings AMD-BOM-EWR had. AMD-LHR-EWR would take off at 04:40 and land at AMD at 02:30, vs early evening departure/arrival on a flight via BOM. Also, I imagine besides connecting pax from AMD, LHR-EWR is very low-yielding on AI and is often placed as a budget option vs UA/BA/VS.

IMO AI should either a) axe LHR-EWR, and resume AMD-BOM-EWR, or b) do 4x BOM-AMD-EWR and 3x BOM-EWR nonstop.


I disagree with you on that one. You are assuming that nearly all AMD people are heading for EWR, and nearly all EWR passengers are headed for AMD/BOM. There are many Telugus/Tamils/N.Indians settled in NJ as well.

I do agree that LHR-EWR is not a good idea for AI, but neither is AMD-EWR nonstop, which would quickly vacuum AI's budget away.

What AI should try is running 4/wk AMD-DEL-EWR, and 3/wk BOM-EWR nonstop. AI should leverage its DEL hub wisely to connect people from all parts of India to/from EWR more seamlessly. AMD-DEL gives the opportunity for AMD pax to connect to AI's flights to JFK/ORD/SFO/IAD, and DEL-EWR will allow people across India to seamlessly get to EWR. (Remember, AI has a much bigger network at DEL than BOM.)

BOM-EWR nonstop should not be completely removed though because it is a classic route and many premium pax demand a nonstop. I actually think operating BOM-EWR on 77L (the one that used to be on DEL-IAD) is a possibility as BOM-EWR is relatively high-yielding (more so than even DEL-JFK), and the route is longer than DEL-SFO. I would imagine the 77W on the route currently has several weight-restriction issues in the winter, more so than even DEL-IAD/ORD due to longer distance and short runways at BOM. Also AI has it 77L hangars at BOM, so this would reduce the need for unncessary 77L flights on DEL-BOM.

Sample winter schedule:

    AI145 AMD 2140 - 2300 DEL 0215+1 - 0700+1 EWR 77W x135
    AI146 EWR 1425 - 1450+1 DEL 1700+1 - 1820+1 AMD 77W x246

    AI191 BOM 0130 - 0715 EWR 77L 246
    AI144 EWR 0115 - 0230+1 BOM 77L 246

Perhaps running a 77L domestic flight from DEL-BOM for this BOM-EWR flight is an option.
 
AirIndia111
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:17 pm

Irehdna wrote:
What AI should try is running 4/wk AMD-DEL-EWR, and 3/wk BOM-EWR nonstop. AI should leverage its DEL hub wisely to connect people from all parts of India to/from EWR more seamlessly.


3/wk BOM-EWR may not be as successful since pax would prefer daily nonstop service for more flexibility. Besides, most of the domestic cities such as MAA/CCU/BLR/HYD/COK/GOI/PNQ/AMD/IXU/BHO/NAG/TRV connect well with the existing AI 191 from BOM, so I don't think AI would gain significant passengers by moving this flight 4/week to DEL.

Irehdna wrote:
AMD-DEL gives the opportunity for AMD pax to connect to AI's flights to JFK/ORD/SFO/IAD


AI currently operates AI 11 and AI 14 from AMD, both international connectors, which arrive into DEL at 2030hrs. and 2355hrs. and connect well with their Far East / North American routes.

Irehdna wrote:
DEL-EWR will allow people across India to seamlessly get to EWR. (Remember, AI has a much bigger network at DEL than BOM.)


Those pax can choose to fly AI's Star Alliance partner, UA on the route. Otherwise, AI 191 still operates as DEL-BOM-EWR daily.

Irehdna wrote:
Also AI has it 77L hangars at BOM, so this would reduce the need for unncessary 77L flights on DEL-BOM.


There are currently no 77L flights on DEL-BOM route, except the odd ones for Mx purposes which would still be required since DEL-SFO would continue to be on the 77L.
 
devmapper
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:56 pm

AirIndia111 wrote:
Irehdna wrote:
What AI should try is running 4/wk AMD-DEL-EWR, and 3/wk BOM-EWR nonstop. AI should leverage its DEL hub wisely to connect people from all parts of India to/from EWR more seamlessly.


3/wk BOM-EWR may not be as successful since pax would prefer daily nonstop service for more flexibility. Besides, most of the domestic cities such as MAA/CCU/BLR/HYD/COK/GOI/PNQ/AMD/IXU/BHO/NAG/TRV connect well with the existing AI 191 from BOM, so I don't think AI would gain significant passengers by moving this flight 4/week to DEL.

Irehdna wrote:
AMD-DEL gives the opportunity for AMD pax to connect to AI's flights to JFK/ORD/SFO/IAD


AI currently operates AI 11 and AI 14 from AMD, both international connectors, which arrive into DEL at 2030hrs. and 2355hrs. and connect well with their Far East / North American routes.

Irehdna wrote:
DEL-EWR will allow people across India to seamlessly get to EWR. (Remember, AI has a much bigger network at DEL than BOM.)


Those pax can choose to fly AI's Star Alliance partner, UA on the route. Otherwise, AI 191 still operates as DEL-BOM-EWR daily.


I don't understand what makes EWR such a snowflake that requires AI to maintain service from BOM and not move it wholesale to DEL. FWIW, 77Ws are weight-restricted on the BOM-EWR route because of hoardings and construction near the ends of BOM runways. @dtw2hyd has quoted financial numbers in other topics that seem to suggest BOM-EWR is just barely breaking-even. DEL has better inbound and outbound connections to secondary Indian cities (with smaller layovers) than BOM, not to mention that these connections allow passengers to complete their immigration/emigration paperwork at the final destination.

Medium-haul international routes to airports with significant premium passenger demand (like LHR) should be the only international flights out of BOM for AI.

The AMD flight was a political concession and should be axed (assuming it is still unprofitable) as soon as possible.
 
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Irehdna
Posts: 388
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:08 pm

devmapper wrote:
Medium-haul international routes to airports with significant premium passenger demand (like LHR) should be the only international flights out of BOM for AI.

The AMD flight was a political concession and should be axed (assuming it is still unprofitable) as soon as possible.


I would actually argue BOM-EWR does better than BOM-LHR.

BOM-EWR competes only with UA, and AI has better timings than UA. Also, the seat/service are generally better on AI. BOM-LHR, on the other hand, is poorly timed (leaves BOM at 6AM, arrives back at BOM at 3AM). AI is also competing against the superior products of BA/9W, both of whose flights are all timed better than AI's flight. Also LHR is not *A hub. BA has its hub at LHR, and 9W connects with VS's operations.

AI should axe BOM-LHR and start BOM-FRA, where they can connect well to LH and (hopefully) get better timings for O/D traffic between Europe and Mumbai.

BOM-EWR is over-served market, but there is still some O/D demand to warrant a nonstop BOM-EWR flight. Operating 3/wk on 77L will help improve loads, as a full plane can be used versus a weight-restricted one. EWR is also a major *A hub, so people will more often connect through here. On the other 4 days when BOM-EWR would not operate, pax can do BOM-DEL and then DEL-EWR.

I don't know about AMD-LHR, but I would imagine LHR-EWR is often full, but is mostly very low-yielding. Keep in mind loads != profit.
 
voxkel
Topic Author
Posts: 162
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:26 pm

This AI DEL-IAD flight seems to be hurting the ME3 already. EK DXB-IAD is now on a 77W (it used to be A380), and I would imagine the loads on EY and QR are dipping as well. Does anybody have figures on this? The fact that AI upgraded IAD to 77W shows that this route must be performing well.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:38 pm

voxkel wrote:
This AI DEL-IAD flight seems to be hurting the ME3 already. EK DXB-IAD is now on a 77W (it used to be A380), and I would imagine the loads on EY and QR are dipping as well. Does anybody have figures on this? The fact that AI upgraded IAD to 77W shows that this route must be performing well.


As said before , the EK flight is switched to the 77W due to taxiway construction at IAD near their A380 gate. Once construction is done it will go back to A380.
 
CapitalAvGeek
Posts: 120
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:01 am

ikolkyo wrote:
voxkel wrote:
This AI DEL-IAD flight seems to be hurting the ME3 already. EK DXB-IAD is now on a 77W (it used to be A380), and I would imagine the loads on EY and QR are dipping as well. Does anybody have figures on this? The fact that AI upgraded IAD to 77W shows that this route must be performing well.


As said before , the EK flight is switched to the 77W due to taxiway construction at IAD near their A380 gate. Once construction is done it will go back to A380.

The EK A380 has already returned to IAD resuming service a few days ago.

We will have to wait for the DOT Statistics which come out six months late to see if the loads change for EY, EK and QR. AI service to IAD started in July so, we will not know loads until January or February unless someone has any information.
 
voxkel
Topic Author
Posts: 162
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:08 am

Irehdna wrote:
BOM-LHR, on the other hand, is poorly timed (leaves BOM at 6AM, arrives back at BOM at 3AM). AI is also competing against the superior products of BA/9W, both of whose flights are all timed better than AI's flight. Also LHR is not *A hub. BA has its hub at LHR, and 9W connects with VS's operations.

AI should axe BOM-LHR and start BOM-FRA, where they can connect well to LH and (hopefully) get better timings for O/D traffic between Europe and Mumbai.


:checkmark: 100% Agree

I actually think AMD-LHR on AI is doing better than BOM-LHR on AI. Both are terribly timed on the India-LHR sector, but at least AMD-LHR is a monopoly serving a higher-earning VFR/Business crowd.

AFAIK The only flights from Europe to Mumbai that arrive at BOM in daylight are 9W/BA from LHR. If AI can do an evening departure flight from FRA and morning into BOM, it opens the doors for a lot of business traffic, not only in Germany, but from LH's entire Europe network. In addition, much of the LH USA-FRA traffic that arrives too late for LH's FRA-BOM flight could fly this AI flight.

It would be too expensive (or impossible) for AI to secure a well-timed slot at LHR, so they should sell the slot used for the BOM flight. Meanwhile, it would be easier to secure a well-timed slot at FRA vs LHR.

Timings: FRA-BOM: 17:25 to 05:50 timings, and BOM-FRA: 10:00 to 14:30 timings will work well to connect to LH's network at FRA, and cater to the business community in BOM. If AI and LH codeshare, then business traffic can do FRA-BOM on AI and BOM-FRA on LH, and arrive at each destination at the start of the workday.

I think AI's BOM-USA route could be kept either as BOM-EWR or they could switch it to BOM-ORD. ORD would be a monopoly route and there is a decently-sized BOM population in ORD. EWR and ORD are both UA hubs, and EWR has more VFR population than ORD, so unless AI frees a 77L plane to do BOM-ORD nonstop, I don't see that route happening.

AI should codeshare with UA. That would help loads on both carriers on IND-USA sector.

I may start a new thread on this topic. Most of the discussion has clearly gone off topic from the DEL-IAD flight.
 
devmapper
Posts: 219
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Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:18 pm

UA has a codeshare with 9W and does not show any AI flights on its searches. I don't know what will happen if DL actually invests in 9W, but for now, UA doesn't seem to be bothered by 9W-AF-KL JV, instead choosing to focus on its LH JV. Unfortunate, since I believe a UA-AI codeshare might make the DEL-IAD (and perhaps DEL-LAX) flight very profitable for both sides.
 
vadodara
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:00 am

voxkel wrote:
I actually think AMD-LHR on AI is doing better than BOM-LHR on AI. Both are terribly timed on the India-LHR sector, but at least AMD-LHR is a monopoly serving a higher-earning VFR/Business crowd.
.


These kinds of statements are anathema to a large audience on these boards.

Honestly, it would be great if you could share numbers. It is important these types of numbers are taken into consideration for the continued development of Indian aviation market.
 
voxkel
Topic Author
Posts: 162
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:17 pm

Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:09 am

Anybody know how the loads are with the 77W on the route? How many seats are they blocking on this flight normally?
 
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Irehdna
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:40 am

Re: AI Upgrades DEL-IAD to B77W

Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:16 am

voxkel wrote:
Anybody know how the loads are with the 77W on the route? How many seats are they blocking on this flight normally?


If they are blocking, it is not much. At this time of the year, DEL-ORD flies about 20min longer than DEL-IAD. In fact, the DEL-ORD flight has been aloft more than 15 hours in recent days. On 20 Oct, DEL-ORD took 15h10min! https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ai127

Interstingly, over the past week, DEL-ORD has often stayed aloft longer than even DEL-SFO. DEL-SFO is often 14:50hr in the air, and DEL-ORD can be greater on certain days. If there is any route they are blocking seats, it is DEL-ORD, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are issues with leaving baggage behind in order to make ORD nonstop. (In the winter, the westbound flights take longer than in the summer.)

Anecdotal evidence suggests even the JFK/EWR flights are sometimes restricted. Both are operated with 77W.

I wouldn't be surprised if AI downgagues ORD to 77L and upgrades SFO to 77W during the winter, since headwinds make ORD a longer flight than SFO in the winter. However, the ORD flight is often full (at least in terms of seats not blocked), so I don't see this scenario likely.

AI should have densified their 77Ls rather than selling them off to EY. However, 2013 was a very different time for AI than now.

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