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flyingclrs727
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:30 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Great news!! I doubt we will see WN doing any Island hops anytime soon. I think AS would have already jumped on it by now if they really wanted to.

I am sure WN will do great. I feel bad for Hawaiian. I sure hope they will be okay.


HA will be fine, their in-flight service is still leaps and bounds above WN. If they are close in price HA wins. The diehard WN fans are probably the ones HA will not be able to reach


WN also has a huge domestic network that can feed traffic to west coast airports to connect to Hawaii. WN passengers already don't expect to be fed. Another consideration is that WN could also start inter island operations, especially if they operate their Hawaiian flights with 737 Max aircraft with their LEAP engines.
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:54 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
tomaheath wrote:
I had asked the same question about the engines I was told that they now have similarly short flights now.


The issue isn’t “short flights.” Any airplane/engine can do short flights.

The issue is continuous short flights with little-to-no time at cruise, minimal turn time, in a hot (local temperature) environment, doing over a dozen cycles per day, and no time for the engine to cool off (either at cruise, or on the ground for extended periods).

Just because WN has a few short flights today doesn’t mean they are subjecting their engines to the same kind of stress that you would get in an island-hopper environment.


But what about LEAP performance compared to previous generations of CFM-56? The hot parts of the LEAP are designed to operate much hotter than previous versions.
 
United1
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:25 pm

compensateme wrote:
777Mech wrote:

TV shows won't do any good if you don't have in seat power to charge your device. It's 2018 and WN still doesn't have ISP on any of their planes. With everyone being connected nowadays, it's a shame.


Which large, legacy airline offers ISP on the majority of its flights?


United....every mainline aircraft has ISP in F/J/Y+ and just about half have power in Y as well. The E175s have ISP in F as well.

It is a bit odd that WN didn't install ISP but certiuanly not the end of the world. If power ports are that important to you power packs are cheap and very reliable...more so than ISP systems.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:48 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
F9Animal wrote:
Great news!! I doubt we will see WN doing any Island hops anytime soon. I think AS would have already jumped on it by now if they really wanted to.

I am sure WN will do great. I feel bad for Hawaiian. I sure hope they will be okay.


HA will be fine, their in-flight service is still leaps and bounds above WN. If they are close in price HA wins. The diehard WN fans are probably the ones HA will not be able to reach


WN also has a huge domestic network that can feed traffic to west coast airports to connect to Hawaii. WN passengers already don't expect to be fed. Another consideration is that WN could also start inter island operations, especially if they operate their Hawaiian flights with 737 Max aircraft with their LEAP engines.


WN will be able to connect passengers to Hawaii from ABQ, AUS, MDW, DAL, DEN, ELP, HOU, MCI, LAS, MSY, PHX, PDX, SMF, STL, SLC, SAT, SJC, and TUS if it adds morning nonstops to LAX from HNL, and some of these destinations do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii.
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:10 pm

jplatts wrote:
flyingclrs727 wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:

HA will be fine, their in-flight service is still leaps and bounds above WN. If they are close in price HA wins. The diehard WN fans are probably the ones HA will not be able to reach


WN also has a huge domestic network that can feed traffic to west coast airports to connect to Hawaii. WN passengers already don't expect to be fed. Another consideration is that WN could also start inter island operations, especially if they operate their Hawaiian flights with 737 Max aircraft with their LEAP engines.


WN will be able to connect passengers to Hawaii from ABQ, AUS, MDW, DAL, DEN, ELP, HOU, MCI, LAS, MSY, PHX, PDX, SMF, STL, SLC, SAT, SJC, and TUS if it adds morning nonstops to LAX from HNL, and some of these destinations do not have any nonstop service to Hawaii.


HA isn't competing for pax out of those cities (except for SJC, LAS, & PHX) anyways. It would be AA, DL, & UA competing with WN to take those pax to Hawaii
 
scoping2008
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:08 pm

WN's recent announcement that they intend to serve 4 airports (HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA) is making local news on television and the radio in Hawaii. Many here hope WN enters the inter-island market in some fashion in order to keep HA in check. Many also want the Hawaii SuperFerry back, but that's a whole other issue.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:36 pm

scoping2008 wrote:
WN's recent announcement that they intend to serve 4 airports (HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA) is making local news on television and the radio in Hawaii. Many here hope WN enters the inter-island market in some fashion in order to keep HA in check. Many also want the Hawaii SuperFerry back, but that's a whole other issue.


It's making news in Hawaii because there's this false sense of hope that Southwest will some how dramatically change the market. It's as if Southwest will be some savior, flying (marching) into the market, to protect the citizens of Hawaii and visitors to Hawaii from the oppression of the evil empires of the industry lead by Hawaiian Airlines. Keep Hawaiian in check from what? Supply and demand already does that. Hawaiian does not gouge and take advantage of the locals as many love to suggest. There's no data to back that up, whatsoever. There is data however, to prove them wrong. But... why should anyone want to consider those, when it's fun and trendy to spout half truths and buy into made up hysteria?
 
BeachBoy
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:07 pm

azjubilee wrote:
Hawaiian does not gouge and take advantage of the locals as many love to suggest. There's no data to back that up, whatsoever.


Ummm, maybe "gouge" is too strong of a word but HA has definitely used its monopoly pricing power to make interisland travel much less affordable (and I'm not referring to the money losing $30 fares) than it was when there was competition. That's not to say Southwest or United or any other airline in the same position would not do the same thing, but to say that HA doesn't take advantage of their market position is just not true.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:21 pm

BeachBoy wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
Hawaiian does not gouge and take advantage of the locals as many love to suggest. There's no data to back that up, whatsoever.


Ummm, maybe "gouge" is too strong of a word but HA has definitely used its monopoly pricing power to make interisland travel much less affordable (and I'm not referring to the money losing $30 fares) than it was when there was competition. That's not to say Southwest or United or any other airline in the same position would not do the same thing, but to say that HA doesn't take advantage of their market position is just not true.


Why is a for profit company charging fares that make money a problem? Should they operate at a loss? For similar stage lengths, the fares are in line or cheaper than what is found on the mainland. This perceived "taking advantage" is a false premise. Pricing is based on supply and demand. In fact, HAL probably executes restraint and keeps prices lower than they could be. HAL knows that the people of Hawaii rely on their services for daily life, taking advantage of ones neighbor is not Hawaiian style. Southwest entering the market inter-island or not, will likely cause fare disruptions, but they too are a for profit entity and will charge what the market can bare.
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:46 pm

azjubilee wrote:
scoping2008 wrote:
WN's recent announcement that they intend to serve 4 airports (HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA) is making local news on television and the radio in Hawaii. Many here hope WN enters the inter-island market in some fashion in order to keep HA in check. Many also want the Hawaii SuperFerry back, but that's a whole other issue.


It's making news in Hawaii because there's this false sense of hope that Southwest will some how dramatically change the market. It's as if Southwest will be some savior, flying (marching) into the market, to protect the citizens of Hawaii and visitors to Hawaii from the oppression of the evil empires of the industry lead by Hawaiian Airlines. Keep Hawaiian in check from what? Supply and demand already does that. Hawaiian does not gouge and take advantage of the locals as many love to suggest. There's no data to back that up, whatsoever. There is data however, to prove them wrong. But... why should anyone want to consider those, when it's fun and trendy to spout half truths and buy into made up hysteria?


WN will be able to connect business travelers who live in the Honolulu area to some of the domestic destinations east of the West Coast that aren't served by HA, including AUS, MDW, DAL, DEN, ELP, HOU, MCI, MSY, STL, SLC, SAT, and TUS, if it adds a morning departure to LAX from HNL. WN also doesn't charge the checked baggage and change fees that AA, DL, UA, and HA charge on domestic flights.
 
Antarius
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:48 pm

BeachBoy wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
Hawaiian does not gouge and take advantage of the locals as many love to suggest. There's no data to back that up, whatsoever.


Ummm, maybe "gouge" is too strong of a word but HA has definitely used its monopoly pricing power to make interisland travel much less affordable (and I'm not referring to the money losing $30 fares) than it was when there was competition. That's not to say Southwest or United or any other airline in the same position would not do the same thing, but to say that HA doesn't take advantage of their market position is just not true.


I pay 3 times as much to fly HOU-DFW than I would to fly HNL-ITO : flights of the same length.

HA could do way worse. Considering Aloha went bankrupt and no one else is jumping into the market, HA must be doing a decent job on pricing and keeping the market satisfied.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:00 pm

Antarius wrote:
I pay 3 times as much to fly HOU-DFW than I would to fly HNL-ITO : flights of the same length.


Have you ever flown on the WN DAL-HOU nonstops, and if so, have you paid as much on the WN DAL-HOU nonstops than you did on the HOU-DFW nonstops?
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:03 pm

I can fly from Australia to Honolulu on Jetstar for less than what it costs to fly from Honolulu to Los Angeles.

Hawaiian prices are higher than average. I expect ticket prices to drop 20% once south west enters the market. The other airlines will be forced to lower prices.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:22 am

RJMAZ wrote:
I can fly from Australia to Honolulu on Jetstar for less than what it costs to fly from Honolulu to Los Angeles.

Hawaiian prices are higher than average. I expect ticket prices to drop 20% once south west enters the market. The other airlines will be forced to lower prices.


There's already a lot of competition on mainland-Hawaii fares, with United (the volume leader, not Hawaiian), Hawaiian, American, Delta, and Alaska (and previously Virgin America) in the market. Try to explain there's 5-way collusion in a large market and a well-trained economist will roll his eyes at you.

Southwest may, indeed, offer some very low fares to make a splash. The proper question is what will fares shake out to be after WN has been in the market 12-36 months? The U.S. DOT keeps great data on domestic fares. Calling out to knope2001 to come back in ~24 months and tell us what happened!
 
wwtraveler99
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:11 am

After reading through 7 pages of WN to Hawaii I wanted to make a comment. Will WN fly inter-island? Probably. For those who may know, how much time on the ground would be needed to have the engines cool properly? 30 min? 40 min? 50 min? From what I have seen of WN the -800s turn time is around 45-60 min. I do not have knowledge of the proper cool-down requirements but it seems to me that 45-60 min would be enough. Feel free to chime in for those who know more than I do.

Fares for HA seem to be higher on average then even DL, AA or UA. That comes from my own personal experience. This does not include inter-island as I have not had a need to look into inter-island fares. Again for those who are nore in the know then I am please feel free to post Mainland to Hawaii average fares.

Now the question I have (and other I am sure), is WN late to the game? Maybe. Seems to me that markets WN will ostly like serve to Hawaii already have AS on most if not all of them. HA probably serves a great majority of them as well. DL, AA and UA only serve the largest markets to Hawaii. So are they late to the game? My opinion is probably not. I think there are many out there who will choose WN over other carriers. Just as the are many who will choose just about anyone over WN. I do know one thing summer of 2019 will have LOTS of seat headed to Hawaii. will they all be filled?


Thanks for reading

WW
 
scoping2008
Posts: 66
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:19 am

azjubilee wrote:
scoping2008 wrote:
WN's recent announcement that they intend to serve 4 airports (HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA) is making local news on television and the radio in Hawaii. Many here hope WN enters the inter-island market in some fashion in order to keep HA in check. Many also want the Hawaii SuperFerry back, but that's a whole other issue.


It's making news in Hawaii because there's this false sense of hope that Southwest will some how dramatically change the market. It's as if Southwest will be some savior, flying (marching) into the market, to protect the citizens of Hawaii and visitors to Hawaii from the oppression of the evil empires of the industry lead by Hawaiian Airlines. Keep Hawaiian in check from what? Supply and demand already does that. Hawaiian does not gouge and take advantage of the locals as many love to suggest. There's no data to back that up, whatsoever. There is data however, to prove them wrong. But... why should anyone want to consider those, when it's fun and trendy to spout half truths and buy into made up hysteria?


Keep HA in check from raising prices, which it has done since Island Air folded. I'm not here "to spout half truths and buy into made up hysteria." The reality is that HA is the only viable option for inter-island travel in this state. Where is this data you cite indicating HA hasn't raised prices? Residents aren't looking to WN to be their savior, they're simply looking for the return of some healthy competition.
 
azjubilee
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Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:04 am

scoping2008 wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
scoping2008 wrote:
WN's recent announcement that they intend to serve 4 airports (HNL, OGG, LIH, KOA) is making local news on television and the radio in Hawaii. Many here hope WN enters the inter-island market in some fashion in order to keep HA in check. Many also want the Hawaii SuperFerry back, but that's a whole other issue.


It's making news in Hawaii because there's this false sense of hope that Southwest will some how dramatically change the market. It's as if Southwest will be some savior, flying (marching) into the market, to protect the citizens of Hawaii and visitors to Hawaii from the oppression of the evil empires of the industry lead by Hawaiian Airlines. Keep Hawaiian in check from what? Supply and demand already does that. Hawaiian does not gouge and take advantage of the locals as many love to suggest. There's no data to back that up, whatsoever. There is data however, to prove them wrong. But... why should anyone want to consider those, when it's fun and trendy to spout half truths and buy into made up hysteria?


Keep HA in check from raising prices, which it has done since Island Air folded. I'm not here "to spout half truths and buy into made up hysteria." The reality is that HA is the only viable option for inter-island travel in this state. Where is this data you cite indicating HA hasn't raised prices? Residents aren't looking to WN to be their savior, they're simply looking for the return of some healthy competition.


I never suggested HAL hasn’t ever raised fares. Of course they have... they’ve brought fares from unsustainable and ridiculous lows, to fares that are in line with supply and demand. All I’m saying is that HAL isn’t price gouging, taking advantage or whatever you want to call it.
 
jplatts
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Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:44 am

wwtraveler99 wrote:
Now the question I have (and other I am sure), is WN late to the game? Maybe. Seems to me that markets WN will mostly like serve to Hawaii already have AS on most if not all of them. HA probably serves a great majority of them as well. DL, AA and UA only serve the largest markets to Hawaii. So are they late to the game? My opinion is probably not. I think there are many out there who will choose WN over other carriers. Just as the are many who will choose just about anyone over WN. I do know one thing summer of 2019 will have LOTS of seat headed to Hawaii. will they all be filled?


ELP is not served by AS, but WN will be able to connect passengers to ELP from Hawaii through LAX if it adds a morning departure to LAX from Hawaii. WN will also be able to connect passengers to some other destinations that currently do not have any nonstop service to California on AS, including HOU, PHX, SAT, and TUS, from Hawaii if it adds a morning departure to LAX from Hawaii.
 
MIflyer12
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:15 am

jplatts wrote:
wwtraveler99 wrote:
WN will also be able to connect passengers to some other destinations that currently do not have any nonstop service to California on AS, including HOU, PHX, SAT, and TUS, from Hawaii if it adds a morning departure to LAX from Hawaii.


That's at least the third time you've spouted that, almost verbatim. HOU, PHX, SAT, TUS are in cities that already have one-stop (or non-stop) service to Hawaii. WN isn't offering much new.
 
tphuang
Posts: 2994
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:12 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
I can fly from Australia to Honolulu on Jetstar for less than what it costs to fly from Honolulu to Los Angeles.

Hawaiian prices are higher than average. I expect ticket prices to drop 20% once south west enters the market. The other airlines will be forced to lower prices.


There's already a lot of competition on mainland-Hawaii fares, with United (the volume leader, not Hawaiian), Hawaiian, American, Delta, and Alaska (and previously Virgin America) in the market. Try to explain there's 5-way collusion in a large market and a well-trained economist will roll his eyes at you.

Southwest may, indeed, offer some very low fares to make a splash. The proper question is what will fares shake out to be after WN has been in the market 12-36 months? The U.S. DOT keeps great data on domestic fares. Calling out to knope2001 to come back in ~24 months and tell us what happened!


There clearly isn't enough competition. The mainland to HI fares are way too high compared to transcon market and HA has the highest margins in airline industry. AS has monopolies on many of the secondary markets and just make a fortune for them. I would bet you there is a lot of room for those fares to fall once WN enters.

Remember a while back, everyone thought it was crazy for B6 to enter premium transcon with $599 fares and now they are everywhere. Legacy airlines have been able to make good margin on the HI flights, HA has been making great margin and AS has been making great margin on its monopolies, time for some of that margin to shrink a little bit. We need a lot more competition on the HI flights.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
wwtraveler99 wrote:
WN will also be able to connect passengers to some other destinations that currently do not have any nonstop service to California on AS, including HOU, PHX, SAT, and TUS, from Hawaii if it adds a morning departure to LAX from Hawaii.


That's at least the third time you've spouted that, almost verbatim. HOU, PHX, SAT, TUS are in cities that already have one-stop (or non-stop) service to Hawaii. WN isn't offering much new.


The complaint seems to be very specifically connectivity on AS - which in the context of this thread, I take to mean as a complaint that only AS provides real price pressure, or that only WN and AS are directly comparable?
 
BeachBoy
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:05 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:07 pm

Antarius wrote:
I pay 3 times as much to fly HOU-DFW than I would to fly HNL-ITO : flights of the same length.


You can't compare HOU-DFW to HNL-ITO.
If the fare on HOU-DFW is too high, you have alternatives like driving.

That's why the local people in Hawaii have a perception of price gouging because there are no suitable alternatives to HA. None. If you can't afford the price they're demanding, you ain't going.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:12 pm

tphuang wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
I can fly from Australia to Honolulu on Jetstar for less than what it costs to fly from Honolulu to Los Angeles.

Hawaiian prices are higher than average. I expect ticket prices to drop 20% once south west enters the market. The other airlines will be forced to lower prices.


There's already a lot of competition on mainland-Hawaii fares, with United (the volume leader, not Hawaiian), Hawaiian, American, Delta, and Alaska (and previously Virgin America) in the market. Try to explain there's 5-way collusion in a large market and a well-trained economist will roll his eyes at you.

Southwest may, indeed, offer some very low fares to make a splash. The proper question is what will fares shake out to be after WN has been in the market 12-36 months? The U.S. DOT keeps great data on domestic fares. Calling out to knope2001 to come back in ~24 months and tell us what happened!


There clearly isn't enough competition. The mainland to HI fares are way too high compared to transcon market and HA has the highest margins in airline industry. AS has monopolies on many of the secondary markets and just make a fortune for them. I would bet you there is a lot of room for those fares to fall once WN enters.

Remember a while back, everyone thought it was crazy for B6 to enter premium transcon with $599 fares and now they are everywhere. Legacy airlines have been able to make good margin on the HI flights, HA has been making great margin and AS has been making great margin on its monopolies, time for some of that margin to shrink a little bit. We need a lot more competition on the HI flights.


I dunno...... I'm not sure it's valid to compare either US transcon or "Australasian" carrier travel simply because they are of similar distances or both go to HNL. There are just such vast market and cost differences at play.

It's true that the central/east US is not well served, and suffers high fares to Hawaii - but the big west coast cities are awfully fare competitive already, and I have difficulty seeing how much cheaper people think those routes "should" be.

I've nothing against cheaper fares, particularly to a wonderful destination like HI, but I am dubious that WN will have lasting price impact on HI travel with a possible few battleground/monopoly exceptions.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1557
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:05 pm

BeachBoy wrote:
Antarius wrote:
I pay 3 times as much to fly HOU-DFW than I would to fly HNL-ITO : flights of the same length.


You can't compare HOU-DFW to HNL-ITO.
If the fare on HOU-DFW is too high, you have alternatives like driving.

That's why the local people in Hawaii have a perception of price gouging because there are no suitable alternatives to HA. None. If you can't afford the price they're demanding, you ain't going.


Sure you can. Again, if HA was gouging and running a crazy profitable enterprise on the backs of exploited passengers, someone would have entered the market.

Considering 10 years have passed since Aloha, it's pretty clear that HA isnt so wildly out of sync with the market. It's easy to complain, much like people do about spirit's quality all while demanding cheap prices
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
BeachBoy
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:05 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:09 pm

Antarius wrote:
Sure you can.


What is the current alternative available to travel HNL-ITO other than HA?

The interisland market is big enough for only 1 carrier (and it's shrinking) which is why no other carrier has entered it and NOT because HA has affordable airfares.
HA's fares went up (I think the flights I were looking at were roughly $20 ow higher) the day Island Air announced it was closing up.
HA is no different from what any other carrier would do in HA's position.
Too bad HA hasn't done something for local people to make them feel less like they're being gouged by doing something like Alaska's Club 49 for Alaska residents w/ free baggage.
A limited amount of Southwest interisland flights will hopefully keep HA in check and allow for both airlines to be successful.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 5410
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:43 pm

BeachBoy wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Sure you can.


What is the current alternative available to travel HNL-ITO other than HA?

The interisland market is big enough for only 1 carrier (and it's shrinking) which is why no other carrier has entered it and NOT because HA has affordable airfares.
HA's fares went up (I think the flights I were looking at were roughly $20 ow higher) the day Island Air announced it was closing up.
HA is no different from what any other carrier would do in HA's position.
Too bad HA hasn't done something for local people to make them feel less like they're being gouged by doing something like Alaska's Club 49 for Alaska residents w/ free baggage.
A limited amount of Southwest interisland flights will hopefully keep HA in check and allow for both airlines to be successful.


If you're arguing there's only room for one carrier the logical solution is to regulate prices. U.S. air transport is deregulated at the interstate level - routes within Hawaii could be regulated, IMHO. Tell them how many seats to put into a market and how to price them. Cover operating losses; take excessive operating profits. Done.
 
FlyHappy
Posts: 1036
Joined: Sat May 13, 2017 1:06 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:11 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
BeachBoy wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Sure you can.


What is the current alternative available to travel HNL-ITO other than HA?

The interisland market is big enough for only 1 carrier (and it's shrinking) which is why no other carrier has entered it and NOT because HA has affordable airfares.
HA's fares went up (I think the flights I were looking at were roughly $20 ow higher) the day Island Air announced it was closing up.
HA is no different from what any other carrier would do in HA's position.
Too bad HA hasn't done something for local people to make them feel less like they're being gouged by doing something like Alaska's Club 49 for Alaska residents w/ free baggage.
A limited amount of Southwest interisland flights will hopefully keep HA in check and allow for both airlines to be successful.


If you're arguing there's only room for one carrier the logical solution is to regulate prices. U.S. air transport is deregulated at the interstate level - routes within Hawaii could be regulated, IMHO. Tell them how many seats to put into a market and how to price them. Cover operating losses; take excessive operating profits. Done.


I'm not sure if its only big enough for 1 carrier, but I'd say its only big enough for 1 carrier with massive frequency and mainline capacity. Things do change over time, but recent history bears that out.

Only a brave operator with plenty of funding can carve out a space using turboprops, maybe.

My preferred inter-island carrier in the 90's was Mahalo Air, flying ATR's. Yes, I know they did not last long, but that was an era of massive competition and overcapacity.
I have to believe that its possible to meaningfully undercut HA using Q400's or ATRs , on a modest scale, which would mostly serve to provide downward price pressure on HA, even if it only dented actual LF.

What is possible is that the flying public is no longer accepting of turboprop travel? Somehow, I think this is the wildcard.
 
Antarius
Posts: 1557
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:11 am

BeachBoy wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Sure you can.


What is the current alternative available to travel HNL-ITO other than HA?

The interisland market is big enough for only 1 carrier (and it's shrinking) which is why no other carrier has entered it and NOT because HA has affordable airfares.
HA's fares went up (I think the flights I were looking at were roughly $20 ow higher) the day Island Air announced it was closing up.
HA is no different from what any other carrier would do in HA's position.
Too bad HA hasn't done something for local people to make them feel less like they're being gouged by doing something like Alaska's Club 49 for Alaska residents w/ free baggage.
A limited amount of Southwest interisland flights will hopefully keep HA in check and allow for both airlines to be successful.


Of course when Island Air went bankrupt prices went up- demand stayed the same, supply dropped. What else do you expect?

People want flexibility (flights every half hour) and yet they want it to be cheap. That isnt how life works. And no one is suggesting that entering would be easy, cheap or requiring capital- but if it was so profitable and gouging as it sounds, someone would do it.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
hnl808
Posts: 42
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 5:34 pm

According to Southwest president Tom Nealon Southwest will begin inter-island service in the near future.

“We will start interisland service once we build up our network and have enough frequency to make it meaningful,” Nealon said, adding that introducing interisland service by the end of next year would be “an awesome accomplishment.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news/2018/05/03/southwest-airlines-to-service-interisland-routes.html
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4301
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 5:44 pm

Wow, so it is true. It's not like Southwest is cheap anymore, and I don't see them undercutting HA prices by more than $10 in a sustained way, but their baggage policies will make that a game changer for a lot of people, particularly locals. HA can't be happy today.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4301
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 5:46 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:

I'm going to somewhat disagree, somewhat. HA is price gouging. Their fares are often 30% higher than the comparable UAL flights that leave at about the same time from my local airports.



You are calling price gouging as charging more than United on a route with competition?
Last edited by jpetekyxmd80 on Thu May 03, 2018 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 776
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 5:48 pm

Sure you can. Again, if HA was gouging and running a crazy profitable enterprise on the backs of exploited passengers, someone would have entered the market.


I'm going to somewhat disagree, somewhat. HA is price gouging. Their fares are often 30% higher than the comparable UAL flights that leave at about the same time from my local airports. It's only gotten worse lately, although how much of that is serious gouging and how much is oil I don't know. On the other hand, HA is known for offering a nicer, better in-flight experience than the legacies (in the eyes of many) and perhaps that's what the higher fares are for. I know I'm often willing to pay more for a better non-bare bones coach experience. I'd say (non-expert opinion from a fairly regular mainland-Hawaii flyer on HA, UAL and DAL) that HA is charging more than they could, in some cases much more, but there may be a valid reason for at least some of the up-charge. UAL is trying to disrupt this by adding more flights. Now, will Southwest be the real fare disruptor? That's the big question. Time will tell.
 
SWADawg
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:43 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 5:51 pm

hnl808 wrote:
According to Southwest president Tom Nealon Southwest will begin inter-island service in the near future.

“We will start interisland service once we build up our network and have enough frequency to make it meaningful,” Nealon said, adding that introducing interisland service by the end of next year would be “an awesome accomplishment.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news/2018/05/03/southwest-airlines-to-service-interisland-routes.html

IMPOSSIBLE! There’s no way the 737 can do inter island flying. The engines won’t take that kind of abuse. But what do I know? I just work here. Carry on.
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
hnl808
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:17 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 5:59 pm

SWADawg wrote:
hnl808 wrote:
According to Southwest president Tom Nealon Southwest will begin inter-island service in the near future.

“We will start interisland service once we build up our network and have enough frequency to make it meaningful,” Nealon said, adding that introducing interisland service by the end of next year would be “an awesome accomplishment.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news/2018/05/03/southwest-airlines-to-service-interisland-routes.html

IMPOSSIBLE! There’s no way the 737 can do inter island flying. The engines won’t take that kind of abuse. But what do I know? I just work here. Carry on.


Why can't a 737 operate inter-island? AQ did it for many years. Aloha Air Cargo continues to operate inter-island with their 737F. There are a lot of routes that airlines operate on a 737 that is as short or shorter than the inter-island flights with the same amount of frequency.
 
bd777
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:03 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 6:24 pm

Journalist Brian Sumers has stated that WN will start service to Hawaii from OAK, SMF, SJC, and SAN:

https://twitter.com/BrianSumers/status/ ... 0285186048
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3705
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 6:24 pm

SWADawg wrote:
hnl808 wrote:
According to Southwest president Tom Nealon Southwest will begin inter-island service in the near future.

“We will start interisland service once we build up our network and have enough frequency to make it meaningful,” Nealon said, adding that introducing interisland service by the end of next year would be “an awesome accomplishment.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news/2018/05/03/southwest-airlines-to-service-interisland-routes.html

IMPOSSIBLE! There’s no way the 737 can do inter island flying. The engines won’t take that kind of abuse. But what do I know? I just work here. Carry on.


It wouldn't be airliners.net if someone doesn't completely take a discussion out of context and peddle a tiny nugget as fact. The much discussed issue with the 737-300/400 and NG engines revolve around cooling time between flights on high frequency schedules. The planes spend very little time at cruise, with a lower thrust and cooler engine. Aloha struggled with it and others will to. However, I don't believe Southwest will ever match the kind of schedule that AQ/HA offered in the past and HA offers today. So... longer turn times and less frequency will probably work fine for Southwest.

It will be interesting to see what their proposed schedule is. IMO, it will be simply a tag on to keep airplanes moving in their network, a few flights a day. They will never match the frequency and network coverage that HA offers, but will offer enough to build a logical schedule for their tail routing. Since they don't code-share or inter-line, their customers will be at a disadvantage should they choose a multi-island visit of Hawaii if they don't offer neighbor island service.
 
jplatts
Posts: 2676
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 6:26 pm

hnl808 wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
hnl808 wrote:
According to Southwest president Tom Nealon Southwest will begin inter-island service in the near future.

“We will start interisland service once we build up our network and have enough frequency to make it meaningful,” Nealon said, adding that introducing interisland service by the end of next year would be “an awesome accomplishment.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news/2018/05/03/southwest-airlines-to-service-interisland-routes.html

IMPOSSIBLE! There’s no way the 737 can do inter island flying. The engines won’t take that kind of abuse. But what do I know? I just work here. Carry on.


Why can't a 737 operate inter-island? AQ did it for many years. Aloha Air Cargo continues to operate inter-island with their 737F. There are a lot of routes that airlines operate on a 737 that is as short or shorter than the inter-island flights with the same amount of frequency.


WN can certainly operate LIH-OGG, LIH-KOA, and HNL-KOA the nonstop routes on its Boeing 737's, and all three of these routes are longer than the MDW-GRR, AUS-HOU, ATL-GSP, and BWI-ORF nonstop routes currently operated by WN.

Here is a breakdown of the distances of the 4 shortest WN nonstop routes in the contiguous U.S.:
MDW-GRR - 137 mi
AUS-HOU - 148 mi
ATL-GSP - 153 mi
BWI-ORF - 159 mi

Here is a breakdown of the distances of possible interisland nonstop routes on WN:
HNL-KOA - 163 mi
LIH-OGG - 201 mi
LIH-KOA - 263 mi

Of the three possible interisland nonstop routes listed above, the LIH-KOA nonstop route is actually longer than 30 of the existing WN nonstop routes in the contiguous U.S. Southwest also already does fly 737-800's and 737 MAX 8's on some flights that are shorter than the LIH-KOA nonstop route.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2775
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 6:26 pm

bd777 wrote:
Journalist Brian Sumers has stated that WN will start service to Hawaii from OAK, SMF, SJC, and SAN:

https://twitter.com/BrianSumers/status/ ... 0285186048



No LAX is interesting.
 
hnl808
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:17 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 6:34 pm

Interesting video to watch as Southwest execs discuss entry details on this mornings local news program.

Here are some of the details from the video (some information that we already know)

- Routes will be announced today (California gateway cities)
- Will launch inter-island service
- Will be hiring local employees
- 737-800 initially then transition to 737 Max8
- Based on ETOPS approval, ticket sales and routes to begin by the end of the year

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/38106150/southwest-airlines-to-launch-interisland-service
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 6:39 pm

Well WN could fly a nonstop HNL-OGG flight that lasts 2 hours if one really has an issue with engine cooling. Just fly out over water for a long time. ;)
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3339
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:01 pm

jplatts wrote:
WN can certainly operate LIH-OGG, LIH-KOA, and HNL-KOA the nonstop routes on its Boeing 737's, and all three of these routes are longer than the MDW-GRR, AUS-HOU, ATL-GSP, and BWI-ORF nonstop routes currently operated by WN.


The difference is that the planes flying these mainland routes are doing those very short hops all day every day. They do a short hop or two, then turn and do something a bit longer. It's when those very short hops are the only thing the plane does day in and day out, that the CFM56 engines on the 737-300 and later have problems. Aloha eventually retired the 737-300 and -400 in favor of keeping the older -200, whose JT8D engines didn't have the problem.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:05 pm

 
WPvsMW
Posts: 2040
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:06 pm

mtnwest1979 wrote:
Well WN could fly a nonstop HNL-OGG flight that lasts 2 hours if one really has an issue with engine cooling. Just fly out over water for a long time. ;)


Engine cooling is not a problem until (I'm told) the 4th or so short cycle (45 min. turns). I think WN will do tags on CONUS flights, rather than base a/c in Hawaii. WN should have zero problems in single-hop tags before continuing to CONUS, or after inbound from CONUS, a single-hop interisland tag, then U-turn to repeat, meaning three, 45 min. turns in a row. Might even work with 4 or 5 short cycle turns... but scheduling probably works better with single hop tags.

That said, Nealon is quoted: " And once we get enough aircraft here, the third step is to execute interisland service.” ... does that mean a/c based in Hawaii? Speculation: base the a/c at ITO... plenty of room. Hilo could use the economic boost. To compete interisland, WN will need to serve ITO.
 
hoya
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:25 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:13 pm

It's official from Southwest - https://www.southwest.com/html/air/news ... awaii.html . As mentioned above, OAK, SAN, SJC, SMF, with interisland. Somewhat surprised nothing from the LA basin, but LA-Hawaii will have six carriers this summer (UA, AA, AS, DL, HA, SY). Alaska is going to feel the brunt of this, let's see if they hang on in OAK.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3705
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:14 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
That said, Nealon is quoted: " And once we get enough aircraft here, the third step is to execute interisland service.” ... does that mean a/c based in Hawaii? Speculation: base the a/c at ITO... plenty of room. Hilo could use the economic boost. To compete interisland, WN will need to serve ITO.


I read that as... when there is enough CONUS-Hawaii flying, they'll add inter-island tags.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2775
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:16 pm

hoya wrote:
It's official from Southwest - https://www.southwest.com/html/air/news ... awaii.html . As mentioned above, OAK, SAN, SJC, SMF, with interisland. Somewhat surprised nothing from the LA basin, but LA-Hawaii will have six carriers this summer (UA, AA, AS, DL, HA, SY). Alaska is going to feel the brunt of this, let's see if they hang on in OAK.


I was just surprised no LAX because SAC and SJC don't have much service east of Denver (although OAK/SAN is better). I figured early on they would pick stations with more midwest service. I guess their focus is on west coast customers though.
 
hoya
Posts: 546
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:25 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:21 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
I was just surprised no LAX because SAC and SJC don't have much service east of Denver (although OAK/SAN is better). I figured early on they would pick stations with more midwest service. I guess their focus is on west coast customers though.


Without redeyes, they're not competitive east of the Rockies. Unless you want to leave Hawaii at 6am, and arrive in MDW or wherever after midnight.
Hoya Saxa!!
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 776
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:29 pm

You are calling price gouging as charging more than United on a route with competition?


All I know is that HA's fares are regularly significantly higher than UAL's and DAL's on the routes and at the times I prefer to fly. That's unscientific but based upon many years of flying to the islands, especially over the past 9 years. Now, whether there is a valid operational reason for these apparently higher fares is the question. There may be, as I pointed out in my post. Is that price gouging? Perhaps. Perhaps others will say no. Your mileage may vary.
 
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aloha73g
Posts: 1935
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:30 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:30 pm

jplatts wrote:
hnl808 wrote:
SWADawg wrote:
Here is a breakdown of the distances of possible interisland nonstop routes on WN:
HNL-KOA - 163 mi
LIH-OGG - 201 mi
LIH-KOA - 263 mi

Of the three possible interisland nonstop routes listed above, the LIH-KOA nonstop route is actually longer than 30 of the existing WN nonstop routes in the contiguous U.S. Southwest also already does fly 737-800's and 737 MAX 8's on some flights that are shorter than the LIH-KOA nonstop route.


I doubt you will see them fly any routes that don't touch HNL, especially LIH-KOA--the market is much too small. HA only started LIH-KOA within the past year or so. The interisland routes they offer will be focused on HNL-LIH/OGG/KOA because that is where the vast majority of the traffic is. In terms of interisland flights that do not touch HNL, there are very few on HA ... 1 KOA-LIH, 3 OGG-KOA, 5 OGG-LIH, 2 OGG-ITO. Thats barely 10% of HA's daily interisland flights. The majority of the traffic is on HNL-OGG & HNL-LIH which are 100 miles each.

Keep in mind WN is going to be flying 175 seat aircraft, which is quite a bit bigger than HA's 717s. I still think WN's interisland operation will be mainly triangle routes (OAK-OGG-HNL-SJC) or tag ons (OAK-HNL-LIH-HNL-OAK), mostly mid-day when the tourists fly. They will probably keep HA's fares in check (FYI, I think HA's fares are VERY reasonable), but I don't think WN will be able to compete with HA on schedule or frequency...atleast in terms of when locals fly. If anything, this may spur HA to create a way for kama'aina to get free checked bags interisland (similar to Alaska's Club 49), which wouldn't be the worst thing.

Gate space (at HNL in particular) is going to be a big problem too. Since all gates are CUTE, WN will not be able to permanently install their boarding system "hardware." Are there other airports where WN has portable boarding "hardware?" I'm curious how they handle it. I love open seating and the WN Boarding system, but I have never seen it executed in a CUTE airport.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
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aloha73g
Posts: 1935
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:30 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:35 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
You are calling price gouging as charging more than United on a route with competition?


All I know is that HA's fares are regularly significantly higher than UAL's and DAL's on the routes and at the times I prefer to fly. That's unscientific but based upon many years of flying to the islands, especially over the past 9 years. Now, whether there is a valid operational reason for these apparently higher fares is the question. There may be, as I pointed out in my post. Is that price gouging? Perhaps. Perhaps others will say no. Your mileage may vary.


It's probably just that HA's "cheap" fares sell out faster than UA. Keep in mind UAL is still the big-dog on CONUS to Hawaii. I also believe there are lots of people who are very loyal to HA and will pay a little extra for the better service (real or perceived) on HA for their regular Hawai'i trips.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!

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