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Jshank83
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:35 pm

aloha73g wrote:

Gate space (at HNL in particular) is going to be a big problem too. Since all gates are CUTE, WN will not be able to permanently install their boarding system "hardware." Are there other airports where WN has portable boarding "hardware?" I'm curious how they handle it. I love open seating and the WN Boarding system, but I have never seen it executed in a CUTE airport.

-Aloha!


CUN is all CUTE also I think. When I flew WN there they just had video screens set up (they were permanent) above the boarding agents. One said 1-30 and one was 30-60. Not sure how HNL is set up but I assume they will do the same thing. They will just line people up by 30 and not have a board every 5 people. It worked fine.
 
ADrum23
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:35 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
hoya wrote:
It's official from Southwest - https://www.southwest.com/html/air/news ... awaii.html . As mentioned above, OAK, SAN, SJC, SMF, with interisland. Somewhat surprised nothing from the LA basin, but LA-Hawaii will have six carriers this summer (UA, AA, AS, DL, HA, SY). Alaska is going to feel the brunt of this, let's see if they hang on in OAK.


I was just surprised no LAX because SAC and SJC don't have much service east of Denver (although OAK/SAN is better). I figured early on they would pick stations with more midwest service. I guess their focus is on west coast customers though.


I’m pretty sure LAX will be added at a later date. They just probably couldn’t make it work for the initial start.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:35 pm

Like United already does? Doubt WN serves ITO. I was expecting HA to dabble in some 321 mainland from ITO, but was told that was not a priority.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:37 pm

azjubilee wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
That said, Nealon is quoted: " And once we get enough aircraft here, the third step is to execute interisland service.” ... does that mean a/c based in Hawaii? Speculation: base the a/c at ITO... plenty of room. Hilo could use the economic boost. To compete interisland, WN will need to serve ITO.


I read that as... when there is enough CONUS-Hawaii flying, they'll add inter-island tags.


Agree. The unanswered question, interisland, is WN service to ITO. I think ITO will be a tag to HNL. ITO-CONUS is a possibility if the yield is there. HA would probably immediately match ITO/CONUS if WN started it... otherwise WN would have a monopoly route.
 
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aloha73g
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:40 pm

WPvsMW wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
WPvsMW wrote:
That said, Nealon is quoted: " And once we get enough aircraft here, the third step is to execute interisland service.” ... does that mean a/c based in Hawaii? Speculation: base the a/c at ITO... plenty of room. Hilo could use the economic boost. To compete interisland, WN will need to serve ITO.


I read that as... when there is enough CONUS-Hawaii flying, they'll add inter-island tags.


Agree. The unanswered question, interisland, is WN service to ITO. I think ITO will be a tag to HNL. ITO-CONUS is a possibility if the yield is there. HA would probably immediately match ITO/CONUS if WN started it... otherwise WN would have a monopoly route.


United has been flying ITO-LAX for years. Usually 1x daily ... sometimes seasonally 5x weekly. HA never had the right aircraft for ITO-Mainland flights, but I think it will happen eventually with the A321. Hilo is a tiny market, mainly locals, not many tourists.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
sfumato
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:55 pm

aloha73g wrote:
Gate space (at HNL in particular) is going to be a big problem too. Since all gates are CUTE, WN will not be able to permanently install their boarding system "hardware." Are there other airports where WN has portable boarding "hardware?" I'm curious how they handle it. I love open seating and the WN Boarding system, but I have never seen it executed in a CUTE airport.


I flew out of NAS on WN in December from a common-use gate with no signage at all. They called A1-A15 to line up, then boarded them, then called A16-A30 to line up, then boarded them, etc. It took a while but it worked.
 
airliner371
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:57 pm

No surprises here really. LAX will come eventually, but certainly not to start. I think what is clear though is that Southwest is committed to making HI work, and I will be very interested to watch AS in the months and years ahead. AS fanboys will be preaching how HI loves AS, but I can absolutely see them eventually retreating on some of these routes, particularly at OAK and SMF.

Truth be told, the VX acquisition was great at gaining additional CA service, but with AS focused on the acquisition, I don't know how much they'll really be able to respond to WN in HI. I'll say this, I have no doubt that WN will eventually surpass AS in passengers carried to HI.
Last edited by airliner371 on Thu May 03, 2018 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tphuang
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 7:59 pm

Definitely going after AS here. I'm not sure why HA stock is down so much awhile ALK stays about the same. There are 8 monopolies that AS owns from OAK/SJC/SMF/SAN to OGG/LIH/KOA and 6 more routes from OAK/SJC/SAN to HNL/OGG/LIH/KOA where AS/HA are both on. There is a lot of damage WN can do to these AS routes. AS has been milking those routes. The yields in many cases are twice as good as what they get on those transcons. I think WN realizes this is the best remaining way to really hurt AS in the California market. It has already added as much capacity in the intra-west coast market as it could.

As for LAX, why get into a more competitive market that AS is not making as much money off?
 
airliner371
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 8:02 pm

tphuang wrote:
Definitely going after AS here. I'm not sure why HA stock is down so much awhile ALK stays about the same. There are 8 monopolies that AS owns from OAK/SJC/SMF/SAN to OGG/LIH/KOA and 6 more routes from OAK/SJC/SAN to HNL/OGG/LIH/KOA where AS/HA are both on. There is a lot of damage WN can do to these AS routes. AS has been milking those routes. The yields in many cases are twice as good as what they get on those transcons. I think WN realizes this is the best remaining way to really hurt AS in the California market. It has already added as much capacity in the intra-west coast market as it could.

As for LAX, why get into a more competitive market that AS is not making as much money off?

I think it's a mix of going after AS, but these California gateways are also natural choices for WN. Southwest is the largest carrier in all four of these markets by a good margin. AS really has a fight coming, I hope for the sake of competition they bring their A-game, but it is going to be tough.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 8:05 pm

aloha73g, you're right about UA's ITO/LAX. I had in mind service to the Bay Area, since WN is (initially, at least) avoiding LAX/Hawaii service.

Hilo town... old Hawaii feel. Something that I think that resonates with the Bay Area, esp. with Hilo's dryer WX the past few years.
Last edited by WPvsMW on Thu May 03, 2018 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
OKCDCA
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 8:07 pm

Will there be a chance WN starts adding service to new markets out of SAN/SJC/OAK/SMF to accommodate more connection opportunities or will they stick with one-stop service from many of their more inland destinations?
 
airliner371
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 8:17 pm

OKCDCA wrote:
Will there be a chance WN starts adding service to new markets out of SAN/SJC/OAK/SMF to accommodate more connection opportunities or will they stick with one-stop service from many of their more inland destinations?

I think long-term we could see service to LAS, PHX, LAX, DEN (if it's possible from HI), maybe even PDX.
 
BeachBoy
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 8:19 pm

Wow.

WN is obviously going for AS’s jugular.

Luckily AS, unlike HA (which will continue to do fine on westcoast-HI and interisland) has lots of opportunities to redeploy their planes.
 
ucdtim17
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 8:46 pm

It'll be interesting to see if AS sticks around at OAK. They have thus far shown zero interest in competing with WN there, so wouldn't be entirely surprising to see if they shifted Hawaii capacity to SFO. On the other hand, OAK is the 4th largest airport in the state, in the metro area they are targeting with significant marketing and their footprint would be going from small to almost nonexistent.

Maybe they'll shift capacity to other routes and finally open up some competition on WN monopoly routes like OAK-BUR/SNA/SAN
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 8:53 pm

Yeah, OAK is the real layup for WN. With the VX acquisition, AS should consider pulling out of OAK-Hawaii and concentrate on SFO and SJC where they can compete more effectively.

SMF is no big deal. Only 1 flight anyway. SAN and SJC are the places where it'll get interesting if there is room for both.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
aden23
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 11:25 pm

I find it interesting that WN is announcing these routes at the same time HA is downgrading it's fleet to narrow-body jets; their one remaining competitive advantage in the face of WN!

Considering the better service, free bags, lower prices, and more versatile rewards program of WN, I'd be surprised if HA survives very long.
 
airliner371
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 11:39 pm

aden23 wrote:
I find it interesting that WN is announcing these routes at the same time HA is downgrading it's fleet to narrow-body jets; their one remaining competitive advantage in the face of WN!

Considering the better service, free bags, lower prices, and more versatile rewards program of WN, I'd be surprised if HA survives very long.

HA will be just fine... I'd be more worried about AS in HI. Wouldn't be surprised if HA is eventually an acquisition target by WN, I could definitely see WN going TPAC before they do TATL.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Thu May 03, 2018 11:58 pm

HA should be fine. Hopefully this is a kick in the pants to match some more customer friendly policies of WN. But their standard economy product on the A321 is embarrassing for an airline that used to pride itself on a more comfortable experience. If they are badly hurt by WN they will have no one to blame but themselves.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
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jaybird
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 12:16 am

aden23 wrote:
I find it interesting that WN is announcing these routes at the same time HA is downgrading it's fleet to narrow-body jets; their one remaining competitive advantage in the face of WN!

Considering the better service, free bags, lower prices, and more versatile rewards program of WN, I'd be surprised if HA survives very long.


Hawaiian isn't downgrading anything. They're adding A321n in addition to their A332 flights. WN does have free bags. We don't know if WN has lower prices because they haven't announced anything yet. Is WNs rewards better? I don't know.

For someone to say "surprised if HA survives very long" is nonsense. And no, I don't work for Hawaiian. But I'm a travel manager here in Honolulu who has been booking Hawaiian for almost 40 years. Hawaiian has a good product, good people, and they're an important part of the Hawaii community. They're not going to disappear because WN or anyone else is coming to town.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 12:27 am

I like Hawaiian. Have flown them a decent amount to and from the mainland, which was not easy to do where I live. Do you think I will be going out of my way to have 30 inch pitch on a narrbowbody without PTVs, without proper power ports, and without wifi.... that is not going to happen. In many ways the product has been downgraded or failed to keep up with competition.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
jplatts
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 12:37 am

jaybird wrote:
aden23 wrote:
I find it interesting that WN is announcing these routes at the same time HA is downgrading it's fleet to narrow-body jets; their one remaining competitive advantage in the face of WN!

Considering the better service, free bags, lower prices, and more versatile rewards program of WN, I'd be surprised if HA survives very long.


Hawaiian isn't downgrading anything. They're adding A321n in addition to their A332 flights. WN does have free bags. We don't know if WN has lower prices because they haven't announced anything yet. Is WNs rewards better? I don't know.

For someone to say "surprised if HA survives very long" is nonsense. And no, I don't work for Hawaiian. But I'm a travel manager here in Honolulu who has been booking Hawaiian for almost 40 years. Hawaiian has a good product, good people, and they're an important part of the Hawaii community. They're not going to disappear because WN or anyone else is coming to town.


Even though some individuals thought that demand for AA service out of DFW would decrease following the repeal of the Wright Amendment, the demand for AA service out of DFW has actually increased since the repeal of the Wright Amendment and is still increasing. The demand for WN service out of DAL has also significantly increased since the repeal of the Wright Amendment as there are now 14 million passengers who travel to, from, or through DAL on WN compared to 8 million passengers per year right before the repeal of the Wright Amendment.

I think that demand for HA service will still exist subsequent to WN's entry into Hawaii, and I think that the demand for HA service might increase like the demand for AA service did at DFW subsequent to WN's post-Wright Amendment expansion at DAL.
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 12:54 am

WN has their fans...and they'll likely be burning their Rapid Rewards points like wildfire to Hawaii. While they might cut into AS and HA loads, both offer a better inflight product and not just food. WN is pretty bare-boned when it comes to hard product. They don't have free movies, seat power, advance seat selection, premium cabins. AS has been battling WN for years...they know their strengths and weaknesses and won't likely lay over and hand them any market. That said, OAK and SMF will interesting to watch. WN will be carrying a lot of connections from mid-continent to Hawaii. How will that affect their yields?
 
olddominion727
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 1:02 am

THEY ANNOUNCED GATEWAYS: SAN, SMF, OAK, SFO, SJC
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 1:09 am

NOT SFO
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 1:11 am

hiflyeras wrote:
WN will be carrying a lot of connections from mid-continent to Hawaii. How will that affect their yields?


I'm sure they will eventually, but I don't think this first round will lend itself to a lot of connectivity between the probable flight times and chosen gateways.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
scoping2008
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 1:35 am

hiflyeras wrote:
WN has their fans...and they'll likely be burning their Rapid Rewards points like wildfire to Hawaii. While they might cut into AS and HA loads, both offer a better inflight product and not just food. WN is pretty bare-boned when it comes to hard product. They don't have free movies, seat power, advance seat selection, premium cabins. AS has been battling WN for years...they know their strengths and weaknesses and won't likely lay over and hand them any market. That said, OAK and SMF will interesting to watch. WN will be carrying a lot of connections from mid-continent to Hawaii. How will that affect their yields?


Well said. I'm sure WN will do just fine. And, I like WN for short-haul flights. But, there is a distinct difference between flying on Southwest versus Alaska and Hawaiian.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 1:45 am

I totally get what you are saying, but the biggest difference between a WN 738 and HA 321 is you will be reasonably comfortable on the former.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
azjubilee
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 1:51 am

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
I totally get what you are saying, but the biggest difference between a WN 738 and HA 321 is you will be reasonably comfortable on the former.


HAL offers standard Y cabin seating, as well as the option to buy Extra Comfort seats with lots of room and F class. Rockwell collins Pinnacle seats were installed in coach and the MiQ in F. There is streaming content via Wifi onboard for entertainment and power in each seat, with holders for the device. All of which the competition offer. So... I'm not exactly sure where you're getting this notion that HA has fitted their 321's like they're from the stone ages.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 2:07 am

I am comparing apples to apples.... the standard economy seat that 70% or whatever of the customers will sit in. Of course if you want to fly F, fly Hawaiian.

You sound like you're in their PR department.

It's simple... their A321 is cramped. 189 seats. 8 more than AA shoves in there. And that's with a larger F pitch and no spaceflex lavs. They financed a large Y+ completely at the expense of a decent standard product. Tell me i'm wrong.

Southwest's 737s have a minimum of 32" pitch. Hawaiian A321 has 30".

You are confused why I have called them more comfortable?
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
airzona11
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 2:13 am

hiflyeras wrote:
WN has their fans...and they'll likely be burning their Rapid Rewards points like wildfire to Hawaii. While they might cut into AS and HA loads, both offer a better inflight product and not just food. WN is pretty bare-boned when it comes to hard product. They don't have free movies, seat power, advance seat selection, premium cabins. AS has been battling WN for years...they know their strengths and weaknesses and won't likely lay over and hand them any market. That said, OAK and SMF will interesting to watch. WN will be carrying a lot of connections from mid-continent to Hawaii. How will that affect their yields?


What evidence is there that WN is flying connecting traffic? OAK and SMF have large catchment areas where WN has the most frequent flyers vs other airlines. They offer different products, financial performance doesn't really give credence that AS is superior to WN in that regard or that it really matters. WN is not going against AS in SEA or PDX. They are doing it in CA where WN is more established than AS. This is not to say AS will be run out of the market by WN. The market is very large and not low yielding. It can sustain WN entering. That being said. the analysis that the largest domestic airline is going to flounder bc they lack IFE or a premium offering, is just not rooted in reality. Additionally, UA across the Bay in SF is still going to be the largest player CA-Hawaii, but the market most certainly can sustain the major carriers.
 
allegiantflyer
Posts: 360
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 2:13 am

No doubt their service to Hawaii will be a huge hit.
Very interesting developments. Especially in regards to inter island. I think the question has to be asked how many players can be in the market. Inter island service comes and goes. Aloha,Island air, GO! history tells us Wn likely will realize there isn't enough room for everyone. UA flew HNL-OGG not that long ago.

aden23 wrote:
Considering the better service, free bags, lower prices, and more versatile rewards program of WN, I'd be surprised if HA survives very long.


.... Are we really about to start counting down the days for the liquidation of HA? lets be real, HA will always have the upper hand in any Hawaiian market.

Anyone who is anyone on a.net knows that WN expedited their Hawaii plans because for whatever reason WN feels threatened by AS in california,not to hurt Hawaiian.
 
azjubilee
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 2:14 am

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
I am comparing apples to apples.... the standard economy seat that 70% or whatever of the customers will sit in. Of course if you want to fly F, fly Hawaiian.

You sound like you're in their PR department.

It's simple... their A321 is cramped. 189 seats. 8 more than AA shoves in there. And that's with a larger F pitch and no spaceflex lavs. They financed a large Y+ completely at the expense of a decent standard product. Tell me i'm wrong.

Southwest's 737s have a minimum of 32" pitch. Hawaiian A321 has 30".

You are confused why I have called them more comfortable?


Not in PR, just giving out the facts. The HA seats are not 30" they're standard 31-32", Extra Comfort has even more. I'm getting the impression you've actually never stepped into a HAL 321. All Y cabin's are tight... if you want more space, pay more. Simple. You're acting if HAL has reinvented the wheel here and they haven't. Their product is in line with the competition.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 2:21 am

azjubilee wrote:

Not in PR, just giving out the facts. The HA seats are not 30" they're standard 31-32", Extra Comfort has even more.



Says who?


You mean to tell me the extra comfort seats have even more legroom than standard? Whoa!
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 2:39 am

Anyway... you're wrong.

HA has 30" pitch.

Dont' believe me? Ask them.
https://www.hawaiianairlines.com/our-se ... et/a321neo

And if you are calling the standard seating comparable... look at these pictures and tell me if you see a difference or not:

Image

Image


I rest my case.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
ericm2031
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 2:56 am

WN has no reason to hurry into LAX. They serve most of the LAX connections through the 4 announced gateways. Yes they will miss out on the LA passenger, but there is so much competition, it might be better to see the others continue to battle it out and maybe someone will blink first and cut back some.
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 3:01 am

bd777 wrote:
Journalist Brian Sumers has stated that WN will start service to Hawaii from OAK, SMF, SJC, and SAN:

https://twitter.com/BrianSumers/status/ ... 0285186048


I'm somewhat surprised that LAX isn't one of the WN stations with flights to Hawaii, but I'd suspect the existing LAX to Hawaii market is already oversaturated if this report's true.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
ctrabs0114
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 3:06 am

hawaiian717 wrote:
jplatts wrote:
WN can certainly operate LIH-OGG, LIH-KOA, and HNL-KOA the nonstop routes on its Boeing 737's, and all three of these routes are longer than the MDW-GRR, AUS-HOU, ATL-GSP, and BWI-ORF nonstop routes currently operated by WN.


The difference is that the planes flying these mainland routes are doing those very short hops all day every day. They do a short hop or two, then turn and do something a bit longer. It's when those very short hops are the only thing the plane does day in and day out, that the CFM56 engines on the 737-300 and later have problems. Aloha eventually retired the 737-300 and -400 in favor of keeping the older -200, whose JT8D engines didn't have the problem.


Unless these inter-island trips are connected to a flight from the mainland...
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), 739 (DL), 712 (DL)
Next: AA: DFW-PHL (752), PHL-MIA (763), MIA-LAX (77W), LAX-DFW (789)
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3705
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 3:17 am

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
Anyway... you're wrong.

HA has 30" pitch.

Dont' believe me? Ask them.

I rest my case.



Oooh! I guess I've been burned. Feel better? :roll: I stand corrected on 1-2 inches of pitch. I guess Seatguru hasn't gotten the memo. The bottom line however, is that the HAL 321 isn't wildly different than the competition. There is entertainment, power and the ability to upgrade your experience.
 
danj555
Posts: 220
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:16 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 4:01 am

What will flights look like coming from east coast? Surely it will be a two stop trip to the islands.

Not fun. Then considering an inter-island hop? dude idk... way too many legs
 
77H
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Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 4:14 am

azjubilee wrote:
BeachBoy wrote:
azjubilee wrote:
Hawaiian does not gouge and take advantage of the locals as many love to suggest. There's no data to back that up, whatsoever.


Ummm, maybe "gouge" is too strong of a word but HA has definitely used its monopoly pricing power to make interisland travel much less affordable (and I'm not referring to the money losing $30 fares) than it was when there was competition. That's not to say Southwest or United or any other airline in the same position would not do the same thing, but to say that HA doesn't take advantage of their market position is just not true.


Why is a for profit company charging fares that make money a problem? Should they operate at a loss? For similar stage lengths, the fares are in line or cheaper than what is found on the mainland. This perceived "taking advantage" is a false premise. Pricing is based on supply and demand. In fact, HAL probably executes restraint and keeps prices lower than they could be. HAL knows that the people of Hawaii rely on their services for daily life, taking advantage of ones neighbor is not Hawaiian style. Southwest entering the market inter-island or not, will likely cause fare disruptions, but they too are a for profit entity and will charge what the market can bare.


I have to agree that the idea of HA gouging the inter-island market is ludicrous. I live on Oahu with family on Maui. I routinely see sub $200 round trip fares on HA between HNL-OGG and vis versa. The flight is about 25 minutes wheels up to wheels down. I got stuck at ORD once on my way to MSN where I went to college and one-way fares were +$300 which is also a 25 minute flight. Two weeks ago I booked a flight on MW between OGG and KOA. The one-way fare was $91. While it is always a fun experience flying on the Caravan the flight is probably twice as long compared to HA's 717s. I agree with AZ that Hawaiian could arguably charge more than they do but they understand they have a kuleana (responsibility) to the people of Hawaii as flying is the only practical means to get from point to point around the state.

All this said, I'm not convinced HA has much to worry about with WN flying inter-island if it comes to fruition. HA runs a successful operation largely centered around frequency of service. Unless WN plans to base a rather sizeable portion of its fleet in Hawaii focused entirely on inter-island turns I don't see them impacting HA much. I suspect WN operate inter-island flights as triangle flights which would not provide anywhere near the frequency they need to compete with HA.

AA, AS, DL and UA could start inter-island ops tomorrow and be arguably more successful than WN. For one, all the other airlines have better brand recognition within the state than WN and all have wide array of fleet types they could use. There is a reason none of the other airlines have entered this market.

77H
 
77H
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 4:42 am

tphuang wrote:
Definitely going after AS here. I'm not sure why HA stock is down so much awhile ALK stays about the same. There are 8 monopolies that AS owns from OAK/SJC/SMF/SAN to OGG/LIH/KOA and 6 more routes from OAK/SJC/SAN to HNL/OGG/LIH/KOA where AS/HA are both on. There is a lot of damage WN can do to these AS routes. AS has been milking those routes. The yields in many cases are twice as good as what they get on those transcons. I think WN realizes this is the best remaining way to really hurt AS in the California market. It has already added as much capacity in the intra-west coast market as it could.

As for LAX, why get into a more competitive market that AS is not making as much money off?



AS has a much larger network than HA who's primary focus is bringing people to Hawaii. Even if AS is pushed out of some of the CA markets by WN it would not impact AS to the same degree as HA being pushed out. I suspect this is the reason for the stock price disparity.

Beyond that, no chance WN can compete with AS out of the PacNo. If you look at Hawaii Tourism Authority's Visitor by MSA stats you will see that the PDX and SEA MSA's are in the top 10 with SEA being 3rd behind the LA Basin and the SF Bay Area (both of which have much more competition). AS will be fine.

P.s. Not an AS fanboy. Haven't even had the pleasure of flying on them.

77H
 
scoping2008
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:48 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 5:37 am

77H wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Definitely going after AS here. I'm not sure why HA stock is down so much awhile ALK stays about the same. There are 8 monopolies that AS owns from OAK/SJC/SMF/SAN to OGG/LIH/KOA and 6 more routes from OAK/SJC/SAN to HNL/OGG/LIH/KOA where AS/HA are both on. There is a lot of damage WN can do to these AS routes. AS has been milking those routes. The yields in many cases are twice as good as what they get on those transcons. I think WN realizes this is the best remaining way to really hurt AS in the California market. It has already added as much capacity in the intra-west coast market as it could.

As for LAX, why get into a more competitive market that AS is not making as much money off?



AS has a much larger network than HA who's primary focus is bringing people to Hawaii. Even if AS is pushed out of some of the CA markets by WN it would not impact AS to the same degree as HA being pushed out. I suspect this is the reason for the stock price disparity.

Beyond that, no chance WN can compete with AS out of the PacNo. If you look at Hawaii Tourism Authority's Visitor by MSA stats you will see that the PDX and SEA MSA's are in the top 10 with SEA being 3rd behind the LA Basin and the SF Bay Area (both of which have much more competition). AS will be fine.

P.s. Not an AS fanboy. Haven't even had the pleasure of flying on them.

77H


Not to mention that Hawaii flying represents only about 15% of Alaska's network now post-VX acquisition. HA is the carrier that will face fare pressure on both fronts.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 2775
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 5:41 am

danj555 wrote:
What will flights look like coming from east coast? Surely it will be a two stop trip to the islands.

Not fun. Then considering an inter-island hop? dude idk... way too many legs


I have a feeling they aren't going to be going after east coast travelers. Is there much Hawaii demand from the east coast? Lots of tropical destinations are much closer.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4303
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 5:48 am

As a general rule... on the east coast Hawaii is on your bucket list. On the west coast its on your grocery list.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
BeachBoy
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:05 am

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 6:11 am

Unlike other markets on the mainland where driving, trains, and buses are options there is only one way to get to Hawaii. In addition, there is only a finite amount of hotel rooms (with record occupancy rates right now) in Hawaii and especially on the neighbor islands (OGG/KOA/LIH). So I'm not sure there will be much of a "Southwest effect" since they're unlikely to stimulate traffic and more likely just take business away from the other carriers.

I'm sure WN has done it's research, but I'm skeptical SMF/SJC/SAN can support daily service to all of the neighbor island markets.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 6:40 am

Jshank83 wrote:
bd777 wrote:
Journalist Brian Sumers has stated that WN will start service to Hawaii from OAK, SMF, SJC, and SAN:

https://twitter.com/BrianSumers/status/ ... 0285186048



No LAX is interesting.


And no SFO. Well, whuddya know? ;)
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1280
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 6:56 am

tphuang wrote:
Definitely going after AS here. I'm not sure why HA stock is down so much awhile ALK stays about the same. There are 8 monopolies that AS owns from OAK/SJC/SMF/SAN to OGG/LIH/KOA and 6 more routes from OAK/SJC/SAN to HNL/OGG/LIH/KOA where AS/HA are both on. There is a lot of damage WN can do to these AS routes. AS has been milking those routes. The yields in many cases are twice as good as what they get on those transcons. I think WN realizes this is the best remaining way to really hurt AS in the California market. It has already added as much capacity in the intra-west coast market as it could.

As for LAX, why get into a more competitive market that AS is not making as much money off?


Doesn’t HA fly SJC-OGG?
 
tphuang
Posts: 2994
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 11:33 am

77H wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Definitely going after AS here. I'm not sure why HA stock is down so much awhile ALK stays about the same. There are 8 monopolies that AS owns from OAK/SJC/SMF/SAN to OGG/LIH/KOA and 6 more routes from OAK/SJC/SAN to HNL/OGG/LIH/KOA where AS/HA are both on. There is a lot of damage WN can do to these AS routes. AS has been milking those routes. The yields in many cases are twice as good as what they get on those transcons. I think WN realizes this is the best remaining way to really hurt AS in the California market. It has already added as much capacity in the intra-west coast market as it could.

As for LAX, why get into a more competitive market that AS is not making as much money off?



AS has a much larger network than HA who's primary focus is bringing people to Hawaii. Even if AS is pushed out of some of the CA markets by WN it would not impact AS to the same degree as HA being pushed out. I suspect this is the reason for the stock price disparity.

Beyond that, no chance WN can compete with AS out of the PacNo. If you look at Hawaii Tourism Authority's Visitor by MSA stats you will see that the PDX and SEA MSA's are in the top 10 with SEA being 3rd behind the LA Basin and the SF Bay Area (both of which have much more competition). AS will be fine.

P.s. Not an AS fanboy. Haven't even had the pleasure of flying on them.

77H


HA has yield premium over AS on the markets they are both in outside of maybe SEA-HNL. The markets WN enters are all going to be places where they have a huge presence, so they are most likely going to have higher yield than AS in the routes they do enter. Especially out of OAK/SMF. WN is entering markets where they would have the most advantage. it's not going to enter from SEA/PDX/SFO.

HA basically has no monopolies on the HI to CONUS market and they continue to get revenue premium on pretty much everyone, so I don't see WN entrance hurting them as much on those routes. Now you are right in that AS has a much larger network to absorb yield declines on these routes, but HI these days are a good chunk of their profit. They are pressured at SEA by DL, at SFO by UA, intra-westcoast by WN, trasncon by everyone. Outside of Alaska, can't think of anywhere else where they have been making so much money.

AirFiero wrote:
Doesn’t HA fly SJC-OGG?

I'm just saying 8 routes from those combos are monopolies and 6 routes are shared by AS/HA
 
77H
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii.

Fri May 04, 2018 12:26 pm

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
As a general rule... on the east coast Hawaii is on your bucket list. On the west coast its on your grocery list.


I struggle to completely agree with this. The NYC MSA was the 7th largest market to Hawaii in calendar’17 and is the 5th largest market to Hawaii through March’18.
Keep in mind that those figures just represent the NYC MSA, and not cities like BOS/PHL/DC or secondary/tertiary cities on the Eastern Seaboard. If one counts ATL and the Florida cities as East Coast the numbers rise further.

If we were to consider the East Coast to be anything East of the Appalachians (which ATL technically is) there are 3 nonstops year-round at or near daily service and 5 nonstops if one counts weekly and/or seasonal service.

Airlines simply would not invest in flights of these stage lengths at the frequencies they do if there was not a strong market feeding them. I flew on UA’s EWR-HNL flight in January that blocked 11h35m. The vast majority of people would consider that a LH flight. I certainly do seeing as I flew on DEN-NRT which was a similar flight time.

That being said, the West Coast is clearly the leader in terms of demand to Hawaii, though it has markedly higher competition than the East. It would seem that several airlines are looking to the Midwest/Interior West to drum up demand. AA just recently announced ORD-HNL on a very limited basis during holiday season’18 and UA has added daily nonstop service from DEN to all the major Hawaiian gateways citing Midwest/Interior West opportunity as the driving force. Additionally, UA is operating ORD-OGG on a 5x weekly basis at current.

77H
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: Southwest Finally Announces Intentions to Serve Hawaii

Fri May 04, 2018 12:32 pm

As for the inter island ....does anyone think that WN will get back some of their 717 from DL and redeploy them to a HNL crew base?? Just thinking outside of a box
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