f4f3a
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:20 pm

The only competition will be if u2 gets part of ab and then it will be only on those routes. This still has to get approved . While it is likely to it is also likely that lh group will have to concede some slots to open market . If u2 deal or subsequent deal with another deal fails then likely lh deal won't be approved and then lead to slots going to open market
 
PanHAM
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:04 pm

Imagine there are Slots available and nobody is interested. Why should LH give up Slots on routes like FRA to HAM/MUC when no other carrire wanted These in years before? It would make sense when U2 takes over routes flown by AB but then, what did LH pay for when they cannot use what they bought. After alll, it was not LHs fault that AB went belly up.
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HHScot
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:14 pm

What Lufthansa paid for was their only meaningful domestic competitor, and with it the right to dictate prices in the German domestic market unhindered.
 
f4f3a
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:30 pm

When iag / bad bought bmi they had to relinquish domestic slots. Virgin through little red tried to establish domestic connections but didn't work and then gave up.

In the same way lh might have to offer up slots on routes where air berlin was the only other competitor . I think though if no one submits plan to run the routes they may well be handed back.
On another note looks like luft and easy have both submitted plans to take parts of alitalia
 
Kilopond
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:48 pm

f4f3a wrote:
When iag / bad bought bmi they had to relinquish domestic slots. Virgin through little red tried to establish domestic connections but didn't work and then gave up.[...]


Another example of this kind had been the VLM slots at LCY. After the UK Office of Fair Trading (OFT) ordered the AF/KL subsidary VLM to vacate their slots, the new entrant Eastern Airways jumped in. And they failed dramatically against the rest of the cross-channel competition.
 
f4f3a
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:10 pm

The Austrian authorities don't seem happy with Lufthansa owning both niki and Austrian .
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:06 am

HHScot wrote:
What Lufthansa paid for was their only meaningful domestic competitor, and with it the right to dictate prices in the German domestic market unhindered.


The only meaningful domestic competition was and is German Rail. Even with something worst case like Hamburg - Stuttgart, if you want to go tomorrow, you can depart at 6:30 with Eurowings and leave 19::10 for 357 EUR, Rail with 5:17 am departure and 17:04 return costs you 290,- EUR, if you want to be able to take a later train back (you have two hours less time after all). In First Class you even pay about 100 EUR more than flying. And HAM-STR/MUC are about the worst possible rail connection competing with flying.

There is a very hard limit how far you can jack up prices before the ability to work on board, trains not just got Wifi, but also tables worthy of the name and enough seat pitch to make use of them, and price, even if you have to add a hotel night, makes taking the train the more attractive option. My company is located near FMO, we fly to MUC a lot, where LH has a monopoly, and everyone, CEO included, take the train if LH happens to be greedy that day. Not being in the office isn´t what it used to be, i can work almost as well wherever i have Internet access than i can at my desk. Few people are "valuable" enough to justify hundreds of Euro in higher ticket prices to safe two hours, especially if those 2 hours come with another 3 hours of working/meeting time instead of standing in Check-In, Security, Boarding lines and a cramped airline seat.

And that is even much more true for leisure travelers.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
PanHAM
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:52 am

"Bahncard 50" halves the rail fare and is an attractive way to save Money for frequent travellers. But really with the inadequate, time wasting Situation at some Airports securitya checks, rail is a better Option most of the times. Or, if you go regaularly, .make it one way rail and return by air and 2 weeks later use the return tickets.
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seahawk
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:05 am

True. If you have to give a presentation at 10:00-12:00 in STR or MUC and come from the DUS area, the train is often the better choice.

Take the train one day earlier (you can still work on the train). Spent a night in a hotel (get up around 6:00-7:00, do the presentation, take the train back and be home at around 18:00-20:00.

Take the plane it is more like: Get up at 03:00 - drive to the airport - arrive between 05:00-06:00 - waster 2 hours at the airport - hope the plane is on time - fly to your destination, jump into a taxi - hurry to the place of the presentation (you are on your feet for about 7:00+ hours already) - give the presentation - back to the airport - waste another 2 hours - arrive home around 18:00-20:00 after a nice 17:00 hours day.

If you care about quality and performance at the meeting, the train is often the better choice.
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:18 am

PanHAM wrote:
"Bahncard 50" halves the rail fare and is an attractive way to save Money for frequent travellers..


Or a Bahncard 100 (Rail Travel Flatrate), and once a company gets to the point where the black mamba makes sense, you won´t see those people on domestic flights anymore, because from that point on Airlines compete against 0,- EUR train fare, and that is a contest hard to win.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
SCQ83
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:39 am

seahawk wrote:
True. If you have to give a presentation at 10:00-12:00 in STR or MUC and come from the DUS area, the train is often the better choice.

Take the train one day earlier (you can still work on the train). Spent a night in a hotel (get up around 6:00-7:00, do the presentation, take the train back and be home at around 18:00-20:00.

Take the plane it is more like: Get up at 03:00 - drive to the airport - arrive between 05:00-06:00 - waster 2 hours at the airport - hope the plane is on time - fly to your destination, jump into a taxi - hurry to the place of the presentation (you are on your feet for about 7:00+ hours already) - give the presentation - back to the airport - waste another 2 hours - arrive home around 18:00-20:00 after a nice 17:00 hours day.

If you care about quality and performance at the meeting, the train is often the better choice.


I take often trains in Western Germany (around DUS - CGN - FRA) and I am still shocked about how unreliable DBahn is. Delays (often +30, +60') seem to be too common, specially compared to trains in Spain, Italy or even France. So I would also count "hope the train is on time".
 
HHScot
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:46 am

The train is not a meaningful competitor to Lufthansa on most of the domestic routes. Just try and do a productive day trip HAM-MUC (or even HAM-DUS) by train...

The train is an attractive option for low yield leisure passengers. But for most higher yield business passengers it is only an option in certain circumstances.
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:18 am

SCQ83 wrote:
I take often trains in Western Germany (around DUS - CGN - FRA) and I am still shocked about how unreliable DBahn is. Delays (often +30, +60') seem to be too common, specially compared to trains in Spain, Italy or even France. So I would also count "hope the train is on time".


The trains have to share track with slower trains and cargo, that makes the whole system less reliable. However, 91.6% of the long distance trains are on time within 15 minutes and 78.9% within 5 minutes, which makes trains far more on time than planes (average delay ~10 minutes in Europe). And you usually have lots of options to keep going if you miss your intended connection, while you often just have one or two more flights to chose from per day.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
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LTU330
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:28 am

HHScot wrote:
The train is not a meaningful competitor to Lufthansa on most of the domestic routes. Just try and do a productive day trip HAM-MUC (or even HAM-DUS) by train...

The train is an attractive option for low yield leisure passengers. But for most higher yield business passengers it is only an option in certain circumstances.


....and unfortunately that is the argument for the prices now. High yield Business passengers have a Company that is willing to pay LH prices. When they don't want to pay they can do the Business by
video conference or take the Train and stay overnight. LH is in the business to make as much money as possible for the shareholders and they will charge what they can do whilst still attracting enough Passengers. If no one pays the price they will lower the cost or stop the route.
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:29 am

SCQ83 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
True. If you have to give a presentation at 10:00-12:00 in STR or MUC and come from the DUS area, the train is often the better choice.

Take the train one day earlier (you can still work on the train). Spent a night in a hotel (get up around 6:00-7:00, do the presentation, take the train back and be home at around 18:00-20:00.

Take the plane it is more like: Get up at 03:00 - drive to the airport - arrive between 05:00-06:00 - waster 2 hours at the airport - hope the plane is on time - fly to your destination, jump into a taxi - hurry to the place of the presentation (you are on your feet for about 7:00+ hours already) - give the presentation - back to the airport - waste another 2 hours - arrive home around 18:00-20:00 after a nice 17:00 hours day.

If you care about quality and performance at the meeting, the train is often the better choice.


I take often trains in Western Germany (around DUS - CGN - FRA) and I am still shocked about how unreliable DBahn is. Delays (often +30, +60') seem to be too common, specially compared to trains in Spain, Italy or even France. So I would also count "hope the train is on time".


But on the main routes the train has a much higher frequency. In the end it is a give and take and you can be screwed by both options, that is why we have largely stopped doing day trips. Train + 1 night in the hotel is usually saver and less stressful.
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:09 am

seahawk wrote:

But on the main routes the train has a much higher frequency. In the end it is a give and take and you can be screwed by both options, that is why we have largely stopped doing day trips. Train + 1 night in the hotel is usually saver and less stressful.


And I have more departure and arrival points. Meeting a customer in Nürnberg for me means a) take the car, b) fly to Munich and take a rental car, or take the Train to Nürnberg.

Door2door:

Car: 5:30 hours
Train: 5 hours
Flight: flight hassle plus 2.5 hours drive

Best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
r2rho
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:26 am

Not sure either if you did comprehend what I wrote. And yet again, maybe my fault in wording it improperly. But I specifically said RAIL and CAR and LONG DISTANCE BUSSES

I understood quite well. On the routes served by LH & AB, rail and car and busses are not competition, but alternatives. It is not the same thing.
Competition implies providing a similar service.
To use an extreme example: when traveling to, say, New York from Europe, does the ship provide competition, according to you?
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:20 am

r2rho wrote:
Not sure either if you did comprehend what I wrote. And yet again, maybe my fault in wording it improperly. But I specifically said RAIL and CAR and LONG DISTANCE BUSSES

I understood quite well. On the routes served by LH & AB, rail and car and busses are not competition, but alternatives. It is not the same thing.
Competition implies providing a similar service.
To use an extreme example: when traveling to, say, New York from Europe, does the ship provide competition, according to you?


If the ship can make it in about the same time, as trains usually do and busses sometimes as well, it sure as he'll would be competition and not just an alternative.
Just hop on a weekday ICE in 1st class and it is almost exclusively suits. And they do travel routes like HAM-MUC!

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:27 am

r2rho wrote:
Not sure either if you did comprehend what I wrote. And yet again, maybe my fault in wording it improperly. But I specifically said RAIL and CAR and LONG DISTANCE BUSSES

I understood quite well. On the routes served by LH & AB, rail and car and busses are not competition, but alternatives. It is not the same thing.
Competition implies providing a similar service.
To use an extreme example: when traveling to, say, New York from Europe, does the ship provide competition, according to you?


If the ship can make it in about the same time, as trains usually do and busses sometimes as well, it sure as he'll would be competition and not just an alternative.
Just hop on a weekday ICE in 1st class and it is almost exclusively suits. And they do travel routes like HAM-MUC!

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
r2rho
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:37 am

Air Berlin was run into insolvency.

run into insolvency... intentionally by a CEO coming from and appointed by LH, with the agreement from Etihad and Merkel in a meeting held in Abu Dhabi in February.

When LH or EW pushes the prices up to much, we will see competition dropping in and there will be competition through one stop flights.
The routes are available to everyone. There is no Monopoly in European aviation, as others have already pointed out. Any ECAA can open routes in any ECAA member country


I will repeat it as often as necessary: Slots, slots, slots! Competition is not possible without slots!

No competitor will come in and pick up these routes at for example DUS and MUC, no matter how much LH charges, because there are no slots!
Even in non slot-restricted airports, competitors might prefer to stay away due to the sheer market dominance of LH.

a monopoly itself doesn't have to be an issue, as long as the giant does not abuse its power in the market.

we are talking about 21st century capitalism here. LH will screw German customers over as far as it possibly and legally can.

There is much less power for the airlines in Europe to protect a "fortress hub" than in the USA, you see what happens between LH and FRA in this times.

The only thing that happened in FRA is that they built a new runway, followed by a new terminal, thus suddenly creating slots and an opportunity for competitors to move in. Without that, it would still remain closed to non-Star outsiders.

HAM - STR, there was no direct flight by Air Berlin anyway, only LH or EW.

Actually, there was. Until the EW wet-lease deal was signed.

The Slots where on the open market, each and every EU Airline could have bought AB and the Slots with it.

No, they were not. Slots in Germany are not traded. you can only inherit them by buying the airline that owns them.

What German airport is slot constrained as it is?

MUC, Berlin, DUS.
 
r2rho
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:39 am

If the ship can make it in about the same time, as trains usually do and busses sometimes as well, it sure as he'll would be competition and not just an alternative.


Exactly. And hence why I have clearly said:
On the routes served by LH & AB, rail and car and busses are not competition

No, the 6hr ICE HAM-MUC, which I personally know, is -not- competition!
Competition is what you see in France or Spain, where high speed rail is truly time and price comparable with air.
The ICE can be an alternative, if you have the time to spare.
Last edited by r2rho on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
r2rho
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:50 am

Berlin - Munich for example shrinks to less than 4 hours, effectively killing that as a non-transit airline destination.

4h25 regular scheduled time. Great improvement, but not enough. Air will still have the dominant market share on this route.

"high speed rail" here, that is very competitive in the intra German market.

...except preciesly on the routes served by AB & LH. The only reason they could support multiple frequencies by 2 airlines was precisely because rail is not competitive on them. AB - not DB - was keeping LH honest.
 
bennett123
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:37 pm

If MOL or others wanted, they could have bid for AB.

Their failure to do so speaks volumes.
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:17 pm

r2rho wrote:
Air Berlin was run into insolvency.

run into insolvency... intentionally by a CEO coming from and appointed by LH, with the agreement from Etihad and Merkel in a meeting held in Abu Dhabi in February.


AB was practically, but not legally, insolvent long before that.

r2rho wrote:
Berlin - Munich for example shrinks to less than 4 hours, effectively killing that as a non-transit airline destination.

4h25 regular scheduled time. Great improvement, but not enough. Air will still have the dominant market share on this route.


DB announced some sprinter trains making it a touch under 4 hours and the fastest on i can find ad hoc is 4:02.

"high speed rail" here, that is very competitive in the intra German market.

...except preciesly on the routes served by AB & LH. The only reason they could support multiple frequencies by 2 airlines was precisely because rail is not competitive on them. AB - not DB - was keeping LH honest.


a dishonest competitor selling way under price is not keeping anyone honest.

No, the 6hr ICE HAM-MUC, which I personally know, is -not- competition!


And yet the train is full of business people .... i took HAJ-MUC so many times and never, not once, was flying an alternative aside of the only case where the meeting was actually at the Munich Airport.

If the train wasn´t competition, air Berlin should have carried tons of money out of the German domestic market, since they where only flying those relations feeding their hubs and where the train somehow wasn´t competitive.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:28 pm

Imho it should be a rule in Europe that no airline should own more than 33% of all slots at an airport. They should be forced to hand all other slots over to the competition if the slots are demanded by other airlines. Only if no other airlines wants the slots the airline already owning 33% should be given additional slots, but only as long as no other airline desires this slots.
 
sabenapilot
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:02 pm

seahawk wrote:
Imho it should be a rule in Europe that no airline should own more than 33% of all slots at an airport. They should be forced to hand all other slots over to the competition if the slots are demanded by other airlines. Only if no other airlines wants the slots the airline already owning 33% should be given additional slots, but only as long as no other airline desires this slots.


With such a rule, you could wreck the hub of basically every large network airline in Europe and thus make their networking operations impossible!
BA at LHR? bye bye... Lufthansa at FRA or MUC? finished... KLM at AMS? done... AF at CDG? Dead... etc etc.
And what for exactly? All so you can -hopefully- fly a bit cheaper on extra short haul routes?
Even if it means loosing tons of long haul routes as well as all thousands of jobs that go with it, both onboard the planes, as well as in support of them on the ground?
Great plan: if you're MOL... if you're trying to run a country's economy, less so.
 
PanHAM
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:49 pm

You guys can moan about LH and their Monopoly as Long as you want. As others have stated, U2 and FR had the Chance to compete, they failed. And even if, at least FRs product is questionble.
And the poor consumers who are robbed by LH now are the same People who oppose a third runway at MUC and the Operation to full capacity at DUS. At least they are opposing HSR as well, to Keep the Balance intact.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
VSMUT
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:30 pm

HHScot wrote:
The train is not a meaningful competitor to Lufthansa on most of the domestic routes. Just try and do a productive day trip HAM-MUC (or even HAM-DUS) by train...


Bad example. There are no real high-speed line leading into Hamburg. The ICEs are limited to no more than 230 kmh. Hamburg is one exception where the plane still holds the advantage.

tommy1808 wrote:
The trains have to share track with slower trains and cargo, that makes the whole system less reliable. However, 91.6% of the long distance trains are on time within 15 minutes and 78.9% within 5 minutes, which makes trains far more on time than planes (average delay ~10 minutes in Europe). And you usually have lots of options to keep going if you miss your intended connection, while you often just have one or two more flights to chose from per day.

best regards
Thomas


But luckily they are opening more and more dedicated high speed lines :smile:

SCQ83 wrote:
I take often trains in Western Germany (around DUS - CGN - FRA) and I am still shocked about how unreliable DBahn is. Delays (often +30, +60') seem to be too common, specially compared to trains in Spain, Italy or even France. So I would also count "hope the train is on time".


Germany has a [false] reputation for being the land of precise and on-time trains. That is wrong. If you want really precise trains, go to Switzerland ;) I too take the ICE very often, and I suffered just 2 to 3 delays so far this year. Once a passenger fell onto the tracks at Frankfurt Airport, and we had to take a detour which cost us 2 hours. Second time was on the way to Zürich, and that tunnel collapsed. I did however book the tickets knowing that there was a scheduled delay, so not really a true delay. Third time was when all the power lines around Hamburg got pulled down by a storm in the beginning of October. I can hardly blame DB for any of those.
Another factor to remember is that Germany is located right in the middle of Europe. A lot more cargo and passenger trains have to traverse Germany than France, Italy and Spain. It isn't even given that many of these trains stop in Germany, but they still congest the tracks.
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:30 pm

seahawk wrote:
Imho it should be a rule in Europe that no airline should own more than 33% of all slots at an airport. They should be forced to hand all other slots over to the competition if the slots are demanded by other airlines. Only if no other airlines wants the slots the airline already owning 33% should be given additional slots, but only as long as no other airline desires this slots.

The current system is very flawed. It is tremendously skewed in favor of the incumbents. However I don't think your suggestion can work, it's too arbitrary.

IMHO slots are public assets that should remain property of the airports and should be leased on relatively short periods so new entrants have a chance to bid on them.

Then market forces could determine the true value of a slot. If it's valuable then the new entrant will need to raise a lot of money to get it. If the incumbent bids too much then their fares will be too high and they'll have to either let go of the slot or bid lower next time. It's a self correcting approach. What we have now sucks.
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seahawk
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Imho it should be a rule in Europe that no airline should own more than 33% of all slots at an airport. They should be forced to hand all other slots over to the competition if the slots are demanded by other airlines. Only if no other airlines wants the slots the airline already owning 33% should be given additional slots, but only as long as no other airline desires this slots.

The current system is very flawed. It is tremendously skewed in favor of the incumbents. However I don't think your suggestion can work, it's too arbitrary.

IMHO slots are public assets that should remain property of the airports and should be leased on relatively short periods so new entrants have a chance to bid on them.

Then market forces could determine the true value of a slot. If it's valuable then the new entrant will need to raise a lot of money to get it. If the incumbent bids too much then their fares will be too high and they'll have to either let go of the slot or bid lower next time. It's a self correcting approach. What we have now sucks.


I like this idea, but the slots should be a property of the airports, but of the state as every citizen suffers from the noise and the pollution of the planes, so the money from the auctioned slots should benefit the state.
 
YIMBY
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:04 pm

seahawk wrote:
Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Imho it should be a rule in Europe that no airline should own more than 33% of all slots at an airport. They should be forced to hand all other slots over to the competition if the slots are demanded by other airlines. Only if no other airlines wants the slots the airline already owning 33% should be given additional slots, but only as long as no other airline desires this slots.

The current system is very flawed. It is tremendously skewed in favor of the incumbents. However I don't think your suggestion can work, it's too arbitrary.

IMHO slots are public assets that should remain property of the airports and should be leased on relatively short periods so new entrants have a chance to bid on them.

Then market forces could determine the true value of a slot. If it's valuable then the new entrant will need to raise a lot of money to get it. If the incumbent bids too much then their fares will be too high and they'll have to either let go of the slot or bid lower next time. It's a self correcting approach. What we have now sucks.


I like this idea, but the slots should be a property of the airports, but of the state as every citizen suffers from the noise and the pollution of the planes, so the money from the auctioned slots should benefit the state.


Most airports are owned by the state, province or municipality so it would not matter.

What about a progressive tax on slots? Should be imposed by EU etc.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:17 pm

I wonder if U2 were ever interested in Niki given their move to get their Austrian AOC. I guess with Niki not being what it once was in VIE and Austria as a whole may have lowered its value to U2?
 
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MD80
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:33 pm

Germany has a [false] reputation for being the land of precise and on-time trains. That is wrong. If you want really precise trains, go to Switzerland ;) I


Or Japan...
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tacobell101
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:48 am

Quick question but does anyone know where Air Berlin's Q400's are gonna go?
 
aviationaware
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 27, 2017 6:33 am

seahawk wrote:
Imho it should be a rule in Europe that no airline should own more than 33% of all slots at an airport. They should be forced to hand all other slots over to the competition if the slots are demanded by other airlines. Only if no other airlines wants the slots the airline already owning 33% should be given additional slots, but only as long as no other airline desires this slots.


Thats the stupidest interventionist idea I have ever heard, and it doesn't even make sense from the consumers point of view because it would cause numerous direct flights to become unfeasible.
 
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LTU330
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:02 am

tacobell101 wrote:
Quick question but does anyone know where Air Berlin's Q400's are gonna go?


They are going to fly for Eurowings. The first one is already being painted. However....

There could be news next year along the lines of “passengers don’t like the Q400, it is unreliable (true) and noisy (not true) and they want to fly on a jet”.
Then, suddenly they dump them, and Zeitfracht (who everyone wondered, why a logistics company would be interested in an Airlines Technik department) convert them all in to parcel carriers to fly for Amazon in Europe. That is the scenario I heard, but you never know. There have been so many rumours that it is hard to know what will happen !
 
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LTU330
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:13 am

PlaneInsomniac wrote:
It seems the saga is ending. LH will today buy the majority of AB assets, including 81 planes, and plans to hire 3000 staff:

https://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article1 ... erlin.html

I know this was the very first post, but it is worth pointing out that actually LH might want to take on 3000 staff, but the reality is LH is not taking on the staff, rather anyone can apply for a job at Eurowings. This means that it is not true that 3000 AB staff automatically get jobs in the LH Group. You could be working for literally any company and apply for these positions. My guess is that a lot of people in AB will be better off on the benefits system (for around a year) than they would be working for Eurowings. Especially if you had an older contract. You would be looking at a pay cut of around 40% in some positions from what I have been told by colleagues who checked out the conditions. It is very easy in Germany for people to get a Doctors note for anything, depression as an example that prevents you from working. One of my colleagues had nearly two years off because of psychological problems. Do you work for a lot less money, or do you stay at home for about 25% less than you used to earn. For some it is a no brainer. Most AB crews are not applying at Eurowings, rather they wait to try to get a transfer of contract. I wish them luck, but I think that will fail.
 
PanHAM
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:08 am

Zetfracht converting the Q400s is an interesting Option. The hub could be Kassel Airport KSF which is near to an Amazon hub in Bad Hersfeld. That would give that place a badly needed boost (KSF)
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:19 pm

And the EU has voiced their concern about the deal and is ready to block LH from buying Niki, which is fantastic for the customer.

Link in German: http://www.aero.de/news-28027/Pruefung- ... rt-an.html
 
bennett123
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:07 pm

In that case, will someone else buy Niki
 
WIederling
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:33 pm

PanHAM wrote:
"Bahncard 50" halves the rail fare and is an attractive way to save Money for frequent travellers. But really with the inadequate, time wasting Situation at some Airports securitya checks, rail is a better Option most of the times. Or, if you go regaularly, .make it one way rail and return by air and 2 weeks later use the return tickets.


re: frequent travellers

Django zahlt nicht. Django hat Monatskarte.

DB sells monthly or yearly passes. personalized or sharable. :: Bahncard 100.
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eamondzhang
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:31 am

seahawk wrote:
Imho it should be a rule in Europe that no airline should own more than 33% of all slots at an airport. They should be forced to hand all other slots over to the competition if the slots are demanded by other airlines. Only if no other airlines wants the slots the airline already owning 33% should be given additional slots, but only as long as no other airline desires this slots.

Why not apply this concept to the US airports first and see how it wrecked the entire AA/UA/DL/WN operations? This is utter nonsense.

Michael
 
Airlinepilot129
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Re: LH buys Air Berlin

Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:43 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
Can they actually get antitrust approval to buy AB?


It's Lufthansa, and to a greater extent, Germany. Of course they can.
Still Working Hard, Still Flying Right.

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aerogt3
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:10 pm

Revelation wrote:
IMHO slots are public assets that should remain property of the airports and should be leased on relatively short periods so new entrants have a chance to bid on them.

Then market forces could determine the true value of a slot. If it's valuable then the new entrant will need to raise a lot of money to get it. If the incumbent bids too much then their fares will be too high and they'll have to either let go of the slot or bid lower next time. It's a self correcting approach. What we have now sucks.


That's a wonderful idea, but it will never happen in places like protectionist germany.

I almost wonder if the German government wants this LH/AB deal not just to save the meager number of jobs and protect LH, but also because it pushes up prices, which will increase profits for Deutsche Bahn (i.e., the German gov.)
 
formigueta
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:58 pm

Lufthansa is looking to present to the EU Commission some concessions to get the deal approved and this will cause Niki to be sold to a third party
 
YIMBY
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:35 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Imho it should be a rule in Europe that no airline should own more than 33% of all slots at an airport. They should be forced to hand all other slots over to the competition if the slots are demanded by other airlines. Only if no other airlines wants the slots the airline already owning 33% should be given additional slots, but only as long as no other airline desires this slots.

Why not apply this concept to the US airports first and see how it wrecked the entire AA/UA/DL/WN operations? This is utter nonsense.

Michael


In which major airports the major operator owns more than 33 % of all slots (24 h minus curfew) and there are no free slots available?

Indeed I would rather consider prime time slots.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:50 pm

YIMBY wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Imho it should be a rule in Europe that no airline should own more than 33% of all slots at an airport. They should be forced to hand all other slots over to the competition if the slots are demanded by other airlines. Only if no other airlines wants the slots the airline already owning 33% should be given additional slots, but only as long as no other airline desires this slots.

Why not apply this concept to the US airports first and see how it wrecked the entire AA/UA/DL/WN operations? This is utter nonsense.

Michael


In which major airports the major operator owns more than 33 % of all slots (24 h minus curfew) and there are no free slots available?

Indeed I would rather consider prime time slots.

In almost all the major hub airports that you can think of, so long as that country implements slot restrictions. At least there will be peak hour constraints among the airports that I listed.

Thinking of HKG, HND, NRT, PEK, PVG, SYD, AKL, DXB, DEL, AUH, FRA, LHR, CDG, AMS, ZRH, CGK, etc. For those airports in the USA it's more gate issue since the USA doesn't really have a slot system for most of the airports; but ATL, SFO, IAD, DFW, IAH, SEA, MSP, DTW comes to my mind of having a carrier with more than 33% flights for the sake of the discussion.

Michael
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:14 am

Reuters: Lufthansa offers to sacrifice routes to save Air Berlin deal: source tells us that LH has a midnight Thursday deadline to tender concessions to the EC that the German government feels are necessary, after LH's CEO visited the EC chair on Wednesday.

It says:

Bild am Sonntag, citing its own sources, said the German government was alarmed that the deal may be blocked and had urged Lufthansa to make further concessions.

The source, who requested anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter, told Reuters the government might lose the 150 million euros it lent to Air Berlin because the bridging loan was secured against the proceeds of the proposed sale.

Seems Angie's Cronies aren't quite as good at greasing the skids as myself and others thought.

Further:

Scenting a fresh opportunity, earlier bidders for Niki have restated their interest - including British Airways which, according to Bild am Sonntag, has asked to see its accounts.

Air Berlin and British Airways parent IAG (ICAG.L) both declined to comment.

Niki Lauda said on Wednesday he would, together with travel company Thomas Cook (TCG.L), like to buy back the airline he founded. “My offer, together with Thomas Cook, still stands,” he told the Handelsblatt financial daily.

Should be interesting to see how this turns out.

My bet is that the fix is still in, and this is just some grandstanding by the EC to try to look relevant.
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seahawk
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:00 am

I hope the EU rejects the deal and starts the 90 work days check period. IAG seems to be pushing very hard for the deal the be blocked and a market entry by IAG would be fantastic for the customer.
 
unityofsaints
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Re: LH buys majority of Air Berlin

Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:10 am

seahawk wrote:
I hope the EU rejects the deal and starts the 90 work days check period. IAG seems to be pushing very hard for the deal the be blocked and a market entry by IAG would be fantastic for the customer.


Deutsche BA 2.0? ;)

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