Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
JetBuddy wrote:I suppose congratulations are in order for Airbus on this milestone. Great achievement.
JBusworth wrote:The downfall of the 747 is enievitable. This is hardly surprising news. The 747 numbers will keep going down with nearly half of Qantas's 747s going next year.
Cunard wrote:With most of the major airlines of the world now flying the Airbus A380 who were previously long standing Boeing 747 operators I'm not really surprised but up until now I have never thought of it but sure the time has come for the 380 to surpass the passenger versions of the venerable Boeing 747, imagine thinking that only five years ago.
jupiter2 wrote:Cunard wrote:With most of the major airlines of the world now flying the Airbus A380 who were previously long standing Boeing 747 operators I'm not really surprised but up until now I have never thought of it but sure the time has come for the 380 to surpass the passenger versions of the venerable Boeing 747, imagine thinking that only five years ago.
"Most" is just a little bit of an exaggeration don't you think ?
racercoup wrote:Aviation history will remember the 747 as a plane that changed the world - the A380 as a colossal corporate mistake. It wasted billons of dollars and will not have touched many people in the grand scheme of things.
CanadaFair wrote:EK and EY never operated pax versions, so why include them?
VirginFlyer wrote:jupiter2 wrote:Cunard wrote:With most of the major airlines of the world now flying the Airbus A380 who were previously long standing Boeing 747 operators I'm not really surprised but up until now I have never thought of it but sure the time has come for the 380 to surpass the passenger versions of the venerable Boeing 747, imagine thinking that only five years ago.
"Most" is just a little bit of an exaggeration don't you think ?
Not if you're talking about the number of A380 operators who have been 747 operators:
- Air France - previous long-standing 747 operator
- Asiana Airlines - current long-standing 747 operator
- British Airways - current long-standing 747 operator
- China Southern - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Emirates - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Etihad Airways - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Korean Air - current long-standing 747 operator
- Lufthansa - current long-standing 747 operator
- Malaysia Airlines - previous long-standing 747 operator
- Qantas - current long-standing 747 operator
- Qatar Airways - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Singapore Airlines - previous long-standing 747 operator
- Thai Airways - current long-standing 747 operator
So of the current 13 operators, 9 have been long-standing 747 operators (and of those, 6 continue to operate the 747 while 3 do not).
Of course if we consider in terms of delivered aircraft, over half have gone to airlines which were not long-standing 747 operators (courtesy of the Emirates effect...)
V/F
JannEejit wrote:It's not so much A380 displacing 747, as 747 being wound down though. You may as well say there's more 737's or 777's than 747's. There's probably more Cessna 172's than everything else added together !
jupiter2 wrote:VirginFlyer wrote:jupiter2 wrote:
"Most" is just a little bit of an exaggeration don't you think ?
Not if you're talking about the number of A380 operators who have been 747 operators:
- Air France - previous long-standing 747 operator
- Asiana Airlines - current long-standing 747 operator
- British Airways - current long-standing 747 operator
- China Southern - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Emirates - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Etihad Airways - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Korean Air - current long-standing 747 operator
- Lufthansa - current long-standing 747 operator
- Malaysia Airlines - previous long-standing 747 operator
- Qantas - current long-standing 747 operator
- Qatar Airways - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Singapore Airlines - previous long-standing 747 operator
- Thai Airways - current long-standing 747 operator
So of the current 13 operators, 9 have been long-standing 747 operators (and of those, 6 continue to operate the 747 while 3 do not).
Of course if we consider in terms of delivered aircraft, over half have gone to airlines which were not long-standing 747 operators (courtesy of the Emirates effect...)
V/F
Well if you are going to include a full list of 380 operators, how about including a full list of 747 operators ? Or at least what "major" airlines haven't operated the 380 but operate/operated the 747. I'll give you a few to start with, KL,AZ,IB,CX,JL,CA,BR,CI,AI,UA,DL,AC,GA,SV,PK,VS. Then there are those which haven't operated either.
Cunard wrote:With most of the major airlines of the world now flying the Airbus A380 who were previously long standing Boeing 747 operators I'm not really surprised but up until now I have never thought of it but sure the time has come for the 380 to surpass the passenger versions of the venerable Boeing 747, imagine thinking that only five years ago.
FlyHappy wrote:Despite the fact that the B747 is the preeminent, legendary, groundbreaking and most beautiful commercial aircraft of all time...
BlueWings wrote:When do you think the last passenger B747 will fly? I gotta try one soon. Never have!
VirginFlyer wrote:jupiter2 wrote:VirginFlyer wrote:Not if you're talking about the number of A380 operators who have been 747 operators:
- Air France - previous long-standing 747 operator
- Asiana Airlines - current long-standing 747 operator
- British Airways - current long-standing 747 operator
- China Southern - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Emirates - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Etihad Airways - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Korean Air - current long-standing 747 operator
- Lufthansa - current long-standing 747 operator
- Malaysia Airlines - previous long-standing 747 operator
- Qantas - current long-standing 747 operator
- Qatar Airways - not a long-standing 747 operator
- Singapore Airlines - previous long-standing 747 operator
- Thai Airways - current long-standing 747 operator
So of the current 13 operators, 9 have been long-standing 747 operators (and of those, 6 continue to operate the 747 while 3 do not).
Of course if we consider in terms of delivered aircraft, over half have gone to airlines which were not long-standing 747 operators (courtesy of the Emirates effect...)
V/F
Well if you are going to include a full list of 380 operators, how about including a full list of 747 operators ? Or at least what "major" airlines haven't operated the 380 but operate/operated the 747. I'll give you a few to start with, KL,AZ,IB,CX,JL,CA,BR,CI,AI,UA,DL,AC,GA,SV,PK,VS. Then there are those which haven't operated either.
Because I understood the phrase we were referring to to mean "most A380 operators were previously long-standing 747 operators", although admittedly it is a bit clumsily worded so maybe we were reading it differently?Cunard wrote:With most of the major airlines of the world now flying the Airbus A380 who were previously long standing Boeing 747 operators I'm not really surprised but up until now I have never thought of it but sure the time has come for the 380 to surpass the passenger versions of the venerable Boeing 747, imagine thinking that only five years ago.
V/F
racercoup wrote:
Most of the major airlines of the world? by what measure? of the top 10 airlines of the world by fleet size : the following (6) have operated 747's , American, Air Canada, Air China, China Southern, Delta & United - none of these airlines fly the A380..
.
FlyHappy wrote:I'm only shocked that there are that many passenger B747's still flying, quite frankly. The numbers have been declining fast, and will only accelerate.
Despite the fact that the B747 is the preeminent, legendary, groundbreaking and most beautiful commercial aircraft of all time, its completely understandable as to why the A380 will displace all of the few remaining routes where VLA/4holers are suitable and desirable. Still, its makes me a little sad.
BlueWings wrote:When do you think the last passenger B747 will fly? I gotta try one soon. Never have!
flee wrote:Is A380 fleet overtaking 747 a hollow victory?
See: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-442160/
flee wrote:Is A380 fleet overtaking 747 a hollow victory?
See: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-442160/
JannEejit wrote:It's not so much A380 displacing 747, as 747 being wound down though. You may as well say there's more 737's or 777's than 747's. There's probably more Cessna 172's than everything else added together !
flee wrote:Is A380 fleet overtaking 747 a hollow victory?
See: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-442160/
flee wrote:Is A380 fleet overtaking 747 a hollow victory?
See: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-442160/
aussieben wrote:I hardly think this is a victory for the A380.
Think about it: The 747 as an overall model was launched 51 years ago. It made it's first commercial flight nearly 48 years ago. It has had well over 1,500 orders over that time and will continue flying for some years yet. As far as an overall production run goes, this is pretty impressive.
The A380 was launched 17 years ago and made it's first commercial flight 10 years ago. It has secured just over 300 orders. The order book for the A380 has stalled and doesn't look likely to recover. Unless Airbus takes a massive leap of faith and launches a new model that makes commercial sense to the majority of the world's carriers. I can't see that happening any time soon.
I've flown in both aircraft and even though the A380 is more quiet and more spacious, it is hardly what I consider to be a revolutionary step change from the 747. It can technically carry well over 500 passengers but most seating configurations are less than 500. Whereas the 747-400 has standard 3 class seating of just over 400 and most airlines will have seating in the mid to high 300 range.
As an example: KE has similar overall seat count when comparing their 747 to their A380. LH does have over 500 on their A380 and less than 400 on their 747.
So say if on average - the A380 carries approx 100 more pax than the 747 (this would be a guess on my part, but I imagine I'm still being fairly generous to the A380) that is hardly revolutionary when comparing the difference between the sizes of he 747 over it's 707 predecessor.
To illustrate this, the original 747-100 had typical seating for 366 whereas the 707 had one class seating for 194 (as per wikipedia). Less pax if it was 2 class. However even on those numbers the 707 only had 53% of the pax that a 747 could carry. That made the 747 truly revolutionary.
Whereas if you compare an A380 to the 747-400 using typical seating configs on Wikipedia. The A380 has 544 typical seats, although the actual typical seating chart has 519. The 747-400 seats 416. This means the 747 has 76% - 80% of the capacity of an an A380. Most if not all airlines don't put that many seats in their A380s. So from that measurement the A380 is hardly the revolution over earlier generation aircraft.
I know seating capacity is only one measurement. I also can see how the A380 would be sought after by pax due to more space and a quieter cabin etc. However to call it a revolution in air transport is IMHO going a few steps too far. That's why the sales have stalled.
The 747 was a true game changer over previous generation aircraft. The A380 is bigger, but not a comparable game changer.
Groover158 wrote:flee wrote:Is A380 fleet overtaking 747 a hollow victory?
See: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... to-442160/
It's pretty safe to answer no to this question. It is merely an interesting observation that was pretty much inevitable, and I don't see Airbus making a big deal about it, or claiming any kind of 'victory' here.
Slug71 wrote:And it was not implied as a "victory". It was just pointing out the fact......
aussieben wrote:For the record though, I actually wish that the A380 and/or 747-8 was more successful. I always thought that when it was launched, the A380 would sell faster once it entered service. A bit like in the early 70's when it seemed every major airline was ordering the 747, just to keep up with the competition. Even if some of them probably didn't need an aircraft that big.
To an extent that probably has happened with the A380, but just on a smaller scale. The next gen winners are the big twins, not the quads.
ADrum23 wrote:I think both the 747 and A380s days are numbered because airlines are realizing that it is not cost-effective to fly them on most routes.
VirginFlyer wrote:Must we always have this pseudo-masturbatory "my aeroplane is better than yours" discussion on every thread which mentions an aircraft type?
V/F
parapente wrote:The article says it all.A market of 740 (and declining) when launched to a max market of 400 today.Airbus bet on a premise that this trend would reverse itself due to airport congestion.They bet horribly wrong.
The market actually continued on the path is was already set on.The launch of A351 and B779 will only harden this trend in the medium term.