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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 29, 2018 11:27 am

777Jet wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Also, the BFO did not "go haywire" at the end, and that did not indicate a dive... The flaperon condition was then consistent with uncontrolled impact, corroborating the fact that it was not a controlled ditching.


Listen to the recent 60 Minutes programme again, several times if you need to, from 27:00. The ATSB's uncontrolled ending scenario is "Based on their highly technical recalculation of the satellite data", not the condition of the flaperon.


Nice misquote so you can go off on a tangent against something I didn't even say. My *actual* quote was:

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Also, the BFO did not "go haywire" at the end, and that did not indicate a dive.

[redacted text:] IIRC (it's been a couple of years) what happened was an extra ping, not part of the regular timed pings up to that point, which indicated the system came online again after engine flame - out... and *that* is consistent with autopilot cruise until fuel starvation. [end redacted text]

The flaperon condition was then consistent with uncontrolled impact, corroborating the fact that it was not a controlled ditching.
.

The bit you chose to cut fits with "Based on their highly technical recalculation of the satellite data" and was actually the main point of my post. To cut that then respond as if I said it was all based on the flaperon... :roll:
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 29, 2018 4:10 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
777Jet wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Also, the BFO did not "go haywire" at the end, and that did not indicate a dive... The flaperon condition was then consistent with uncontrolled impact, corroborating the fact that it was not a controlled ditching.


Listen to the recent 60 Minutes programme again, several times if you need to, from 27:00. The ATSB's uncontrolled ending scenario is "Based on their highly technical recalculation of the satellite data", not the condition of the flaperon.


Nice misquote so you can go off on a tangent against something I didn't even say. My *actual* quote was:

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Also, the BFO did not "go haywire" at the end, and that did not indicate a dive.

[redacted text:] IIRC (it's been a couple of years) what happened was an extra ping, not part of the regular timed pings up to that point, which indicated the system came online again after engine flame - out... and *that* is consistent with autopilot cruise until fuel starvation. [end redacted text]

The flaperon condition was then consistent with uncontrolled impact, corroborating the fact that it was not a controlled ditching.
.

The bit you chose to cut fits with "Based on their highly technical recalculation of the satellite data" and was actually the main point of my post. To cut that then respond as if I said it was all based on the flaperon... :roll:


You actually wrote everything that I quoted. You admit "IIRC (it's been a couple of years)" and go on about the final ping how you remember it - from a couple of years ago... The highly technical *RECALCULATION* of the data was done much more recently than a couple of years ago, and that is what the ATSB bases their uncontrolled ending scenario on (how they have reinterpreted the numbers). That final ping was the result of the systems doing as you described (which would preceed either the controlled / uncontrolled ending), but it is the numbers / data within the ping that has been recalculatd.

Anyway, the ATSB's uncontrolled ending search area based on the REcalculation of the data is obviously another fail because the search is now over and 9M-MRO, the 777 with 239 SOB, is still missing... And Ocean Infinity has spent a lot of $$$ searching the wrong area...
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lightsaber
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 29, 2018 4:10 pm

TC957 wrote:
Today, Ocean Infinity have formally announced their search for MH370 is being concluded with no new evidence of the aircraft whereabouts found. It will forever remain a mystery.

I'm sad. :( I knew the chance was low, but I had hope.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 29, 2018 5:11 pm

777Jet wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
777Jet wrote:

Listen to the recent 60 Minutes programme again, several times if you need to, from 27:00. The ATSB's uncontrolled ending scenario is "Based on their highly technical recalculation of the satellite data", not the condition of the flaperon.


Nice misquote so you can go off on a tangent against something I didn't even say. My *actual* quote was:

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Also, the BFO did not "go haywire" at the end, and that did not indicate a dive.

[redacted text:] IIRC (it's been a couple of years) what happened was an extra ping, not part of the regular timed pings up to that point, which indicated the system came online again after engine flame - out... and *that* is consistent with autopilot cruise until fuel starvation. [end redacted text]

The flaperon condition was then consistent with uncontrolled impact, corroborating the fact that it was not a controlled ditching.
.

The bit you chose to cut fits with "Based on their highly technical recalculation of the satellite data" and was actually the main point of my post. To cut that then respond as if I said it was all based on the flaperon... :roll:


You actually wrote everything that I quoted. You admit "IIRC (it's been a couple of years)" and go on about the final ping how you remember it - from a couple of years ago... The highly technical *RECALCULATION* of the data was done much more recently than a couple of years ago, and that is what the ATSB bases their uncontrolled ending scenario on (how they have reinterpreted the numbers). That final ping was the result of the systems doing as you described (which would preceed either the controlled / uncontrolled ending), but it is the numbers / data within the ping that has been recalculatd.


And where, exactly, do either myself or Carlos actually talk about the ATSB doing any recalculation?!? He was concerned about the accuracy of the satellite data, I was pointing out that his concerns are addressed in the reports. And then covered what WarrenPlatts had termed "BFO going haywire".

Kindly go take your fictional discussion about things no-one was talking about elsewhere.
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 29, 2018 5:49 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I'm sad. :( I knew the chance was low, but I had hope.

There was no chance at all Mr. Moderator. This is Tom Thumb technology. Instead of bread crumbs we have pings and arcs. I don't go on because I will become annoying to some...
I want to repeat that the experts who examined the flaperon have concluded that the plane was ditched carefully but upon hitting the water it flipped over like the Ethiopian 767. Ditching is more difficult than we seem to believe. I wonder,is it practiced in the simulator? Who can answer that?
 
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BirdBrain
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 29, 2018 8:18 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I'm sad. :( I knew the chance was low, but I had hope.


Yes, same here. It's a sad day. For me this will stay an unfortunate mystery. Unlike some experts who had solved it even before it left the gate at KUL. RIP the poor souls on board.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue May 29, 2018 10:22 pm

lightsaber wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Today, Ocean Infinity have formally announced their search for MH370 is being concluded with no new evidence of the aircraft whereabouts found. It will forever remain a mystery.

I'm sad. :( I knew the chance was low, but I had hope.


With respect, I think this is a bit of a leap. The same could have been said after the last search, but then a new search was started. These folks have already said they would rejoin a future search if one is started. While disappointing, I hold out hope that a future search will reveal the wreckage.
-Dave


”Yet somewhere in Iceland a great anger stirred in the soul of a troubled individual...” - Revelation
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 30, 2018 1:38 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
777Jet wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

Nice misquote so you can go off on a tangent against something I didn't even say. My *actual* quote was:

.

The bit you chose to cut fits with "Based on their highly technical recalculation of the satellite data" and was actually the main point of my post. To cut that then respond as if I said it was all based on the flaperon... :roll:


You actually wrote everything that I quoted. You admit "IIRC (it's been a couple of years)" and go on about the final ping how you remember it - from a couple of years ago... The highly technical *RECALCULATION* of the data was done much more recently than a couple of years ago, and that is what the ATSB bases their uncontrolled ending scenario on (how they have reinterpreted the numbers). That final ping was the result of the systems doing as you described (which would preceed either the controlled / uncontrolled ending), but it is the numbers / data within the ping that has been recalculatd.


And where, exactly, do either myself or Carlos actually talk about the ATSB doing any recalculation?!? He was concerned about the accuracy of the satellite data, I was pointing out that his concerns are addressed in the reports. And then covered what WarrenPlatts had termed "BFO going haywire".

Kindly go take your fictional discussion about things no-one was talking about elsewhere.


My comment about the ATSB recalculation of the data was using a fact (that the ATSB's pet uncontrolled ending scenario, and thus new search area, was based on the recalculation) to dismiss your fantasy idea that the flaperon condition corroborated " the fact that it was not a controlled ditching".

I quote you:

""Also, the BFO did not "go haywire" at the end, and that did not indicate a dive. IIRC (it's been a couple of years) what happened was an extra ping, not part of the regular timed pings up to that point, which indicated the system came online again after engine flame - out... and *that* is consistent with autopilot cruise until fuel starvation. The flaperon condition was then consistent with uncontrolled impact, corroborating the fact that it was not a controlled ditching.""

1) WarrenPlatts used the term "go haywire" to refer to the data patterns in the final ping (when compared to earlier ping data) and that is the data the ATSB has said indicated an uncontrolled ending (dive in your words). That part of your claim is wrong.

2) The flaperon condition is not consistent with an uncontrolled impact and therefore does not corroborate that there was no controlled ditching, so you are wrong again. For you to call that "corroborating the fact" is a huge lie but it is not surprising coming from you given your anti-pilot did it camp agenda from day one.

So take your nonsense elsewhere.

Carlos questioned the data so the REcalculation of the data is very relevant given that the calculations / interpretation of the data might be wrong (actually have been wrong on each occasion used to come up with a search area so far).

Again, take your nonsense claim about the final ping not indicating a dive and the flaperon condition being consistent with an uncontrolled impact elsewhere.
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F9Animal
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 30, 2018 4:12 am

lightsaber wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Today, Ocean Infinity have formally announced their search for MH370 is being concluded with no new evidence of the aircraft whereabouts found. It will forever remain a mystery.

I'm sad. :( I knew the chance was low, but I had hope.


I too am deeply saddened. I compare this to a movie that ends that doesnt have closure or leaves you wondering what was going to happen. I also do not understand how they cant find a plane with the technology we have today. I hope that they find it one day. I couldn't imagine how agonizing this would be for family and loved ones. I hope there is never a MH370 incident like this ever again. It's so unfair.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 30, 2018 8:29 am

Official statement:

Oliver Plunkett, Ocean Infinity’s CEO, said:

“I would firstly like to extend the thoughts of everyone at Ocean Infinity to the families of those who have lost loved ones on MH370. Part of our motivation for renewing the search was to try to provide some answers to those affected. It is therefore with a heavy heart that we end our current search without having achieved that aim.

We are most grateful to the Government of Malaysia for entertaining our offer and affording us the opportunity to recommence the search. The commitment that the new government in Malaysia has made to prioritising finding MH370 was very good to hear.

We want to thank the team onboard Seabed Constructor who have worked tirelessly and all the many companies, organizations and individuals whose support, guidance and advice were invaluable. The staff at the ATSB whose dedication to finding the plane has been unwavering deserve our particular gratitude.

Whilst clearly the outcome so far is extremely disappointing, as a company, we are truly proud of what we have achieved both in terms of the quality of data we’ve produced and the speed with which we covered such a vast area. There simply has not been a subsea search on this scale carried out as efficiently or as effectively ever before.

We sincerely hope that we will be able to again offer our services in the search for MH370 in future.”

Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/Ocean__Infin ... 9733018625

The last sentence makes hope, just a little bit..
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Wed May 30, 2018 11:41 am

F9Animal wrote:
I hope there is never a MH370 incident like this ever again.


Likewise, especially since there is now a precedent to be able to just go missing in a state of the art aircraft with hundreds of other passengers nowadays given the technology around.


Some other recent articles:

'Deep-sea explorer and acclaimed director James Cameron says it’s no surprise missing flight MH370 hasn’t been found'

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... 569c2df71c

""“We’ve got to remember the actual plane is about 60m long — that’s about four times less than the Titanic — which they took more than 70 years to find knowing exactly the co-ordinates of where it went down,” he told AAP.

“This is a very deep ocean, this is a large aircraft admittedly, but not that large that it was obviously easily detectable.”""


Whilst we have more advanced technology today than when Titanic was found, Cameron's point about the size difference and knowing v not knowing the co-ordinates is spot on. It also makes me wonder if the technology just didn't pick up the wreckage despite the reports that talk about how good the underwater equipment is.


'‘He was naughty’: MH370 pilot’s sister speaks out on his many female friends'

https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... f297dd89b6


""Fatima Pardi, a worker with the PKR party, told The Australian in September 2016 she met Zaharie when he joined the party and began attending political events ahead of the 2013 election.

The relationship ended a few months before the plane went missing, but she claimed to have received a call from Zaharie on the night his plane disappeared.""
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:26 pm

The search continues for few more days:

The search for missing Malaysian Airlines flight 370 has not quite ended but will in "the next few days," a spokesman for the private underwater search company leading the operation has confirmed.

The official search for the aircraft ended on Tuesday after Ocean Infinity failed to locate the plane during its canvassing of an area totalling 125,000 square kilometres in the Indian Ocean.

But spokesman Mark Antelme said late on Thursday that the company's Seabed Constructor vessel was now heading north to an area where a Chinese patrol ship had detected a "ping" during a search shortly after the plane went missing in March 2014.

"What we are trying to do is to use the last two days that we have in the north area," Antelme said. "At the time they thought it [the ping] was a black box."

Source: https://www.news.com.au/world/breaking- ... eb9f52725f
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:57 pm

N14AZ wrote:
The search continues for few more days:

The search for missing Malaysian Airlines flight 370 has not quite ended but will in "the next few days," a spokesman for the private underwater search company leading the operation has confirmed.

The official search for the aircraft ended on Tuesday after Ocean Infinity failed to locate the plane during its canvassing of an area totalling 125,000 square kilometres in the Indian Ocean.

But spokesman Mark Antelme said late on Thursday that the company's Seabed Constructor vessel was now heading north to an area where a Chinese patrol ship had detected a "ping" during a search shortly after the plane went missing in March 2014.

"What we are trying to do is to use the last two days that we have in the north area," Antelme said. "At the time they thought it [the ping] was a black box."

Source: https://www.news.com.au/world/breaking- ... eb9f52725f


IIRC the frequency of the "ping" detected by the Chinese ship was the same frequency that black boxes emit. I also believe that spot is located within the original search area. Anyway, I wonder how much $$$ this latest search has cost Ocean Infinity?
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:29 pm

777Jet wrote:
I also believe that spot is located within the original search area.

No, I might be wrong but I don't think it was within the original underwater search area because it's much north to the original area.

Image
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:37 pm

N14AZ wrote:
777Jet wrote:
I also believe that spot is located within the original search area.

No, I might be wrong but I don't think it was within the original underwater search area because it's much north to the original area.

Image


Neither did I, but I read that in an article by The Guardian when searching for MH370 articles the other day. Article title "MH370: search for missing plane heads for one last spot of interest". They must be referring to the surface search area from early on because as you say, the underwater search area(s) coordinates are further South.

Quote: "However, it appears that in a last-ditch effort, the Seabed Constructor will continue for at least two more days to survey a spot 25 degrees south and 101 degrees east within the original 84,000-sq-mile search zone.

The pulse detected by the Chinese ship had a frequency of 37.5kHz, the same as is emitted by flight recorders, and it was seen as one of the few hopeful moments in the first few weeks of the search for the Boeing 777, which went missing in the early hours of 8 March 2014 en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing."

The link is not visible on this device so I can't copy / paste it.
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:16 pm

777Jet wrote:
Quote: "However, it appears that in a last-ditch effort, the Seabed Constructor will continue for at least two more days to survey a spot 25 degrees south and 101 degrees east within the original 84,000-sq-mile search zone.

Ooops, maybe I got confused from these tweets during the last days, when the Seabed Constructor was heading north:
May 29:
You are very close to the place where possible pings from #MH370 's blackbox were detected in april 2014. Please check that area once before winding up.

May 29:
The plane is probably lying beneath the area Haixun heard pings in 2014. Please don't leave now when you're so close to scanning that area and finding it or ruling it out.

Source: https://twitter.com/Ocean__Infinity/sta ... 9733018625
 
ltbewr
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:00 am

This article from a USA based website has some interesting points about a number of issues surrounding this tragic loss. In parts it condemns and gives examples of the 'swamp of corruption' and non-transparent policies of the recently deposed government in Malaysia including blaming the pilot first, several technical weaknesses in tracking aircraft due to pressures from airlines to hold down costs among others. https://www.thedailybeast.com/mh370-did ... yptr=yahoo
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:00 pm

ltbewr wrote:
In parts it condemns and gives examples of the 'swamp of corruption' and non-transparent policies of the recently deposed government in Malaysia


Interesting article. The more and more I read about Razak the more I learn the extent of which he is a scumbag. His funds should be confiscated, returned to the taxpayer, and used to fund the search for 9M-MRO. I wonder what would be the more appropriate ending for him; Gaddafi like or like the passengers on flight MH370... Glad he is out and hope things get better in Malaysia with the new government.
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:15 am

Good News, Ocean Infinity will continue to search until June 8:
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... ffe#.05szm
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:38 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Good News, Ocean Infinity will continue to search until June 8:
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-u ... ffe#.05szm


Haixun 01 detected the signals on 05 April. Remember those four signals detected between 05-08 April by Bluefin-21?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... t-all.html


""Search teams picked up two signals on April 5 at a frequency of 33.5kHz before two more were received three days later at 27kHz.

While both are significantly lower than the 37.5kHz frequency black box beacons are designed to emit, the April 5 signals are still possible, down perhaps to weakening batteries or the 'vagaries of deep-sea conditions'.

Cmdr Lybrand, captain of the Ocean Shield vessel, said: 'As far as frequency goes, between 33 kHz and 27 kHz is a pretty large jump.'

He did say the authorities still believe that the two April 5 signals, one of which was held for 2 hours and 20 minutes - are consistent with black-box locator beacons""


That was when former PM Abbott embarassed himself with those comments about being 'confident' the signals were from the boxes. I believe they eventually thought the signals came from dolphins or tracking devices fitted to dolphins or other marine life. Where were the signals detected by Haixun 01 in relation to these detections?


Here is a recent interview with somebody who lost relatives on MH370:

http://www.france24.com/en/20180604-per ... nce-search
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:01 am

Found this picture on Kevin Rupp's twitter account, showing the current position of the Seabed Constructor and its previous route.

Image
Source: https://twitter.com/LabratSR
 
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BirdBrain
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:30 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Found this picture on Kevin Rupp's twitter account, showing the current position of the Seabed Constructor and its previous route.


Thanks for sharing this. What an incredibly remote location.
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:44 pm

Now that the search has come up empty I need to say that there is something that I find disconcerting about the search locations that have been chosen. The searches have all been in the more southerly of possible locations along the line of the last Inmarsat arc. To predict that MH-370 would have wound up in most of the places searched would mean that you would have had to have modeled the flight path as if 9M-MRO had taken a northerly turn after leaving the last Malaysian radar coverage at 18:22. There have always been people selling the idea that the plane went north, but I thought that idea had been cast off a long time ago. It turns out that there's a group of people on the internet still selling that idea, and it may be that they have been listened to by some of the people planning the searches.

To me, it's obvious that Zacharie pushed 9M-MRO at the upper end of its speed / altitude abilities. The flight made an average ground speed from IGARI to the 18:28 ping ring of 514kts. And this makes sense, there would have been no reason for him to have chosen anything less. Soon after clearing the Sumatra mainland, the Inmarsat information tells us that he turned south; it is clear that is where he was headed, there was no reason for him to delay that turn. And if he did turn straight south, 9M-MRO would have traveled farther than the locations that have been searched before running out of fuel, had he turned south where logic would dictate, 9M-MRO would have wound up hundreds of miles farther south. And there is no reason to think it happened any other way. Yet I find long discussions on whether he glided after fuel ran out or if he nosed it in. There have been discussions to solve the question of how large the fuel lines in 9M-MRO were, so they could predict how long the APU might have run. There has been hairsplitting aplenty while the logical assumption that the plane made it up to 400nm farther south than the area that has been searched has been ignored.

It seems the old "MH-370 went north" idea never completely went away. The above mentioned "group" keeps it in the background, but all their predictions are based on the premise that 9M-MRO flew around in the Andaman sea for about 49 minutes before turning south. They base this theory on a series of BFO readings at 18:39 which can be interpreted in two ways: each way equally technically valid. The plane was on a southerly course while maintaining altitude (and speed); the other way of interpreting the same BFO information, would correlate with a plane flying on a northerly course while descending.

Headed south while maintaining speed and altitude as expected, or headed north while descending and slowing down.
Why would anyone think it went flying around in the Andaman sea? The only reason I've come across so far to support that idea is that Zaharie may have been feeling guilty.

Has anyone else here been following this aspect of MH-370?
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:49 am

salttee wrote:
Now that the search has come up empty I need to say that there is something that I find disconcerting about the search locations that have been chosen. The searches have all been in the more southerly of possible locations along the line of the last Inmarsat arc. To predict that MH-370 would have wound up in most of the places searched would mean that you would have had to have modeled the flight path as if 9M-MRO had taken a northerly turn after leaving the last Malaysian radar coverage at 18:22. There have always been people selling the idea that the plane went north, but I thought that idea had been cast off a long time ago. It turns out that there's a group of people on the internet still selling that idea, and it may be that they have been listened to by some of the people planning the searches.

To me, it's obvious that Zacharie pushed 9M-MRO at the upper end of its speed / altitude abilities. The flight made an average ground speed from IGARI to the 18:28 ping ring of 514kts. And this makes sense, there would have been no reason for him to have chosen anything less. Soon after clearing the Sumatra mainland, the Inmarsat information tells us that he turned south; it is clear that is where he was headed, there was no reason for him to delay that turn. And if he did turn straight south, 9M-MRO would have traveled farther than the locations that have been searched before running out of fuel, had he turned south where logic would dictate, 9M-MRO would have wound up hundreds of miles farther south. And there is no reason to think it happened any other way. Yet I find long discussions on whether he glided after fuel ran out or if he nosed it in. There have been discussions to solve the question of how large the fuel lines in 9M-MRO were, so they could predict how long the APU might have run. There has been hairsplitting aplenty while the logical assumption that the plane made it up to 400nm farther south than the area that has been searched has been ignored.

It seems the old "MH-370 went north" idea never completely went away. The above mentioned "group" keeps it in the background, but all their predictions are based on the premise that 9M-MRO flew around in the Andaman sea for about 49 minutes before turning south. They base this theory on a series of BFO readings at 18:39 which can be interpreted in two ways: each way equally technically valid. The plane was on a southerly course while maintaining altitude (and speed); the other way of interpreting the same BFO information, would correlate with a plane flying on a northerly course while descending.

Headed south while maintaining speed and altitude as expected, or headed north while descending and slowing down.
Why would anyone think it went flying around in the Andaman sea? The only reason I've come across so far to support that idea is that Zaharie may have been feeling guilty.

Has anyone else here been following this aspect of MH-370?


If the plane was intentionally taken and flown to escape detection and get away as fast and and far as possible, then I agree that there was no reason to delay the turn around the Sumatra mainland; and I believe the turn happened just past the tip of that area (Banda Ache). The Z feeling guilty idea is nonsense because if everyone else on board was already dead at that point (if they were not dead already he risked a fight back) then it wouldn't make sense to change plans anyway, and, he had hours worth of fuel anyway so he could have changed his mind later. No need to delay that turn in the Z did it scenario.
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salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:01 am

777Jet wrote:
No need to delay that turn in the Z did it scenario.
I'm glad we can agree on this.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:51 am

Something is wrong with the assumptions that led to this search area. That’s for sure.
 
gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:38 pm

I am glad you are saying that. It is like playing the roulette: it is a no-win situation...and the more you lose,the more you want to play. Those people at Ocean Infinity were on a mission to map the ocean floor for some reason and were certainly paid for their work,they were not gambling or doing a charity.
 
hinckley
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:52 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Something is wrong with the assumptions that led to this search area. That’s for sure.

I'm not trying to be facetious, but they didn't find the plane in the area that the assumptions led them to. I think everyone believes that the search groups were competent, so by definition, the assumptions, or some part of the assumptions, were wrong.

gzm wrote:
I am glad you are saying that. It is like playing the roulette: it is a no-win situation...and the more you lose,the more you want to play. Those people at Ocean Infinity were on a mission to map the ocean floor for some reason and were certainly paid for their work,they were not gambling or doing a charity.

Wait . . . what? Are you suggesting some sort of maleficence or sinister motive on the part of Ocean Infinity?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:56 pm

@ gzm: to which comment are you referring to?
 
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:12 pm

hinckley wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Something is wrong with the assumptions that led to this search area. That’s for sure.

I'm not trying to be facetious, but they didn't find the plane in the area that the assumptions led them to. I think everyone believes that the search groups were competent, so by definition, the assumptions, or some part of the assumptions, were wrong.

That’s exactly what I tried to say.
 
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:00 pm

hinckley wrote:
gzm wrote:
I am glad you are saying that. It is like playing the roulette: it is a no-win situation...and the more you lose,the more you want to play. Those people at Ocean Infinity were on a mission to map the ocean floor for some reason and were certainly paid for their work,they were not gambling or doing a charity.

Wait . . . what? Are you suggesting some sort of maleficence or sinister motive on the part of Ocean Infinity?

Why should I? Don't get me wrong. But do you know how much such a mission must have cost? Do you think that a serious company with the most expensive equipment not to mention specialized personnel just took the risk and gambled and guess who will foot the bill now?That they were hired for nothing?On assumptions?That they were taken in?That they have been so foolish?
 
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:54 pm

gzm wrote:
hinckley wrote:
gzm wrote:
I am glad you are saying that. It is like playing the roulette: it is a no-win situation...and the more you lose,the more you want to play. Those people at Ocean Infinity were on a mission to map the ocean floor for some reason and were certainly paid for their work,they were not gambling or doing a charity.

Wait . . . what? Are you suggesting some sort of maleficence or sinister motive on the part of Ocean Infinity?

Why should I? Don't get me wrong. But do you know how much such a mission must have cost? Do you think that a serious company with the most expensive equipment not to mention specialized personnel just took the risk and gambled and guess who will foot the bill now?That they were hired for nothing?On assumptions?That they were taken in?That they have been so foolish?


That's exactly what they and the authorities have said.

This couple of months has generated some goodwill and publicity, and I read somewhere that they were currently idling with no other contracts anyway, and just imagine how fortunate they would have been if they had found it (which they must have been hopeful about).
"As with most things related to aircraft design, it's all about the trade-offs and much more nuanced than A.net likes to make out."
 
gzm
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:31 pm

Exactly. I get the meaning. It was such a golden opportunity for them to do their drills that they should be grateful for their luck...
 
hinckley
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:56 pm

gzm wrote:
Why should I? Don't get me wrong. But do you know how much such a mission must have cost? Do you think that a serious company with the most expensive equipment not to mention specialized personnel just took the risk and gambled and guess who will foot the bill now?That they were hired for nothing?On assumptions?That they were taken in?That they have been so foolish?


In addition to being an av geek, I'm an older, pretty serious business person. Now I know nothing about the ocean exploration business so I can't comment on it specifically, but serious companies often take on projects with success-only contingent revenue streams. Many people are familiar with traditional personnel search firms. That's an industry that was build on contingent revenue. There may be other data points for this particular project that I'm not familiar with, and those data points may point to some sort of conspiracy, but the simple fact that a project was taken on a contingent basis isn't one of them. Save that amateurish stuff for the flat earth society boys.
 
hinckley
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:57 pm

N14AZ wrote:
hinckley wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Something is wrong with the assumptions that led to this search area. That’s for sure.

I'm not trying to be facetious, but they didn't find the plane in the area that the assumptions led them to. I think everyone believes that the search groups were competent, so by definition, the assumptions, or some part of the assumptions, were wrong.

That’s exactly what I tried to say.

I'm with you then!
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:14 pm

I have followed the MH-370 story with vigor but I never stuck my nose into the search aspect of it. I assumed that the Australians had some inside information maybe from the intelligence community, maybe from Indonesian radar at Sebang, so I never tried to second guess them. Later when private companies were running their own show I again didn't feel competent to judge or second guess the people putting up the money.

But now that they all have come up empty I look into it a bit and ask: why has so much effort been spent looking so far south? Then I run into this internet group who base their assumptions on an idea that the plane turned north shortly after leaving Malaysian radar coverage, not only turned north but also slowed down and descended. That has to be the assumption that 9M-MRO ran out of fuel so far north is based on. And it makes no sense.

I do know that almost from day one there have been people actively sewing confusion and providing false direction around MH-370. Could those meddlesome fingers have gotten themselves into the search effort? I don't know the answer but I do think it's a valid question.
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:13 am

This device won't let me quote so I'll address a few different points.

I recall reading an article, maybe from a week or two ago, in which Ocean Infinity said that they might return to look for MH370 after some other contracted work is done. I suspect this would be after rough SIO winter conditions. Anyway, at least a company is willing to do something / keep trying even if other authorities are winding back efforts.

Now that the no find no fee deal has expired, I wonder what legal (not moral) obligations Ocean Infinity would have if they found it now? I believe they would give up the location anyway, but I don't see why they couldn't try to ask for a sum to cover their cost. Also, I have never seen the point (other than to get the job done quickly) in there being the deadline (date) to complete the search by. Why didn't Malaysia just agree to pay a set ammount if they find it, or give a much longer timeframe? It wouldn't cost Malaysia anymore and the search company would at least not be rushed and know they would get paid if they found it. Then it would be up to them for how long they wanted to spend searching.

That it has not been found after several searches of different areas based on the most probable location based on what is known at that time raises questions. We need the radar data that salttee has long been asking for. Why is it still not being released? Will it be released in the report that the minister said will come out soon? Who knows. But we need all of the radar data and the public deserves to know what MH370 was doing in areas in which radar followed it.

As for the wing dip mentioned on 60 Minutes, where is the data that underpins those comments? Seriously. That was either the biggest bs or there is more thorough data out there.

As for the last turn towards the SIO being made further North, I can only speculate on some reasons.

In the intentional scenarios, it makes the most sense to turn asap after passing the Sumatra mainland for obvious reasons. Maybe a way point further North was programmed into the AP so some things on board could be taken care of, but then, a way point closer to Banda Ache could also have been programmed in if things needed to be done so again, it makes no sense at all to delay that turn in the intentional scenarios. Only in the accident / hypoxia / crew oxygen bottle explosion scenarios would droning around in the Andaman sea or using way points out the way of the SIO make sense. I think the turn was made sooner and the plane is farther South. Getting the rest of the radar data could help clarify this and then be used to recalculate the final leg distance. Why is Malaysia still hiding this data? Shame on them!

Malaysia is not a superpower. They are not at war. Are their capabilities that good that they need to be kept secret. I really doubt it. They need to do everything they can to find their missing aircraft that they let get away. Shame on Malaysian authorities...
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:05 am

777Jet wrote:
Getting the rest of the radar data could help clarify this and then be used to recalculate the final leg distance. Why is Malaysia still hiding this data? Shame on them!
Malaysia is not a superpower. They are not at war. Are their capabilities that good that they need to be kept secret? I really doubt it. They need to do everything they can to find their missing aircraft that they let get away. Shame on Malaysian authorities...

The fact that they are withholding data and that nothing has surfaced so long means that this s a huge conspiracy involving several "players" - need I name them? Just compare it with the case of the Korean jumbo which was on a mission and the journalists found out after a few months exactly what its mission was: to activate electronic response from the Russian radars so that the Americans could pinpoint their location. We can surmise that the Malaysian aircraft must have been doing something similar. After all, history repeats itself...and,yes,I am old enough to remember!
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:05 am

The wing dip is a bunch of malarkey. But the character who invented it does have a bit of wiggle room. A set of radar returns from (supposedly) the Butterworth tower radar and the Sultan Ismail Petra Airport tower radar at Koto Bharu are circulating on the internet. They have gone through a format translation process and I find that aren't possible to be 100% accurate, there are some errors, but they seem pretty close if they are in fact genuine. I'm giving it the benefit of doubt and am assuming that they are genuine (but, you know, anything that comes out of Malaysia.....).
http://www.dropbox.com/s/1s1gy8chfvbdb0 ... h.kmz?dl=0 They load into Google Earth.

So if these are accurate plots, 9M-MRO made a turn as it passed Pinang; thus, with a little bit of imagination you could say there was a "wing dip". Yea, right!

The above radar plots are from the two tower radars, what's missing are the returns from the military radar, the Pulu Pinang radar at 5°25'28.70"N 100°15'2.89"E, this is a much better radar that sits on the top of a hill and has a range of over 240nm vs 60nm for the tower radars. But if those two tower radars are accurate, we don't really need the Pulu Pinang radar anymore because if Hishammuddin was telling the truth that 9M-MRO passed out of radar coverage at 18:22 10 miles past MEKAR, that's all we need to know; this information does match up with the 18:28 ping ring perfectly.

The radar returns which would really nail things down would be from the Indonesian military or civilian radars at Sebang, the Thai radar at Surat Thani or the Indian radar at Car Nicobar, all of which we could expect to have been in operation that night. That won't happen unless Malaysia asks for them; good luck with that.

IMO the new Malaysian government wants MH-370 hushed up just as much as the last Malaysian government.


gzm wrote:
the case of the Korean jumbo which was on a mission and the journalists found out after a few months exactly what its mission was: to activate electronic response from the Russian radars so that the Americans could pinpoint their location.
You're one of the few that understands the dynamics behind KE007. A good friend of mine and his brother were on that plane. I've done a lot of digging into that one. That experience was what got me started on MH-370. But I don't see any similarity.
 
moa999
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:14 am

I suspect Malaysia wants to keep much of the data secret because it shows their coverage was actually that poor - stations not manned, systems not on or recording.

In any event I don't think the track over Malaysia is that important. The Inmarsat data and drift analysis of recovered parts shows they are in roughly the correct spot.

As for Ocean Infinity, they were proving their tech - they searched an area significantly larger and in much less time and with only one ship, than the initial search with multiple vessels.

The area is way too deep and distant to be profitably mined for anything and a bottom scan doesn't show you what's underneath.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:58 am

moa999 wrote:
In any event I don't think the track over Malaysia is that important. The Inmarsat data and drift analysis of recovered parts shows they are in roughly the correct spot.

Not an expert but my understanding is that it IS important to get an idea how much fuel was consumed before heading south, thereby getting an idea for how long they might have flown to the south before they ran out of fuel.
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:33 am

gzm wrote:
777Jet wrote:
Getting the rest of the radar data could help clarify this and then be used to recalculate the final leg distance. Why is Malaysia still hiding this data? Shame on them!
Malaysia is not a superpower. They are not at war. Are their capabilities that good that they need to be kept secret? I really doubt it. They need to do everything they can to find their missing aircraft that they let get away. Shame on Malaysian authorities...

The fact that they are withholding data and that nothing has surfaced so long means that this s a huge conspiracy involving several "players" - need I name them? Just compare it with the case of the Korean jumbo which was on a mission and the journalists found out after a few months exactly what its mission was: to activate electronic response from the Russian radars so that the Americans could pinpoint their location. We can surmise that the Malaysian aircraft must have been doing something similar. After all, history repeats itself...and,yes,I am old enough to remember!


David Gallo, who co-led the AF447 search, doesn't accept the Inmarsat data:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/flight ... ne-search/

'What If They Were Looking for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 in the Wrong Place All Along?' (Note: Article written on 09 June by... Jeff Wise)

The article is short and worth reading regardless of what you think happened to MH370 or where you think it ended up.

A quick quote regarding the interpretation of the data:


""After spending weeks developing the mathematics necessary to interpret it, investigators decided that the BFO values meant the plane must have gone south.""


First - the data coming from the aircraft and received by Inmarsat (satellite) must be accurate. Second - the data Inmarsat decided to provide and use for the interpretation must be that same accurate data from the aircraft. Third - the new and untested methodology used to interpret the data must be correct. If all three points are accurate / correct then the plane has to be somewhere within maximum gliding distance range from the final ping arc. If just one of those points are wrong, for whatever reason, then investigators could be way off.


""When I reached him on the phone, Gallo told me he was flummoxed by the authorities’ insistence that the Inmarsat data and its interpretation had to be correct. “This is where I got so frustrated,” he said. “The plane’s not there, so what the hell? What’s going on?”"


Anyway, at least some areas of the SIO are being ruled out after being searched so the potential search area is slowly reducing. The again, it is possible that the debris were missed by the equipment. That would be the worst case scenario because I really, really doubt that already searched areas would get a second sweep until all possible areas were at least searched once and that probably won't even happen. MH370 might never be found. Really sad how this event is turning out.
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salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:12 pm

David Gallo lives all alone in an intellectual world of his own making, there is nothing mysterious about the BTO information or how it is obtained. It merely measures the amount of delay in the Inmarsat signal from the satellite to the transceiver on the airplane.

Radio signal travels at the speed of light, so if you know how long a radio signal took to travel across a space you can calculate the distance it traveled; this is not at all difficult for engineers to work out. In the electronics world, the fact that signals are delayed about one nanosecond for every foot of travel is well known and factored into circuit design all the time. When you (used to) talk on a long distance telephone call that was sent via satellite, there was an annoying delay of about a half a second that had to be dealt with. Long distance calls routed through oceanic cables had no such delay, it was always easy to tell if your connection was via satellite. This delay can be measured precisely, there is nothing difficult or mysterious about it. BTO aka Burst Timing Offset is merely the product of the measurement of that delay. It can be, and is, repeated every day on every flight that communicates with satellites.

BFO aka Burst frequency off set, sounds complex but it is just a measure of the amount of Doppler effect introduced into the above signal. Logically it is not complex and should not be hard to understand for anyone who has ever taken a high school science class. Anyone who doesn't understand Doppler effect really has no business offering opinions on anything more technical than a bicycle IMO. However, the detection of, and measurement of, the Doppler effect in the Inmarsat signal is not nearly so easy as the measurement of the travel time of the signal. But Inmarsat has been able to measure the Doppler shift in their signals introduced by moving aircraft dependably and can repeat these calculations on test aircraft. The amount of information provided from BFO signals is limited and even when accurately presented, the BFO (Doppler) shift can be due to multiple scenarios in the unseen target aircraft IE: descending can be interpreted as movement away from the satellite, while maintaining altitude but turning away from the satellite's direction could be interpreted as descending. So BFO information needs to be treated with caution. But there is no doubt of its validity.

You've been beating this "the BFO BTO information is phony" drum for four years now. Why don't you either get an education or STFU? David Gallo and Jeff Wise are making a pitch to the uneducated / ill informed segment of society. They are hucksters.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:58 pm

There will be more searches. I would be willing to bet on it. Look at Amelia Earhart for example. Over 80 years ago and her mystery and legend are still going as strong as ever. Take a look at these and imagine similar articles about MH370 80 years from now if it hasn’t been found by then.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180953646/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/worl ... -dogs.html

I realize that it is not necessarily apples to apples to compare the Earhart search to MH370, in the sense that the Earhart search is smaller, more focused, less expensive and less complex than MH370. The point I want to make however, is that MH370 is already an aviation legend and one that has probably eclipsed Earhart as the greatest aviation mystery of all time.

The allure of that fact will be tempting to more than a few people who would love the bragging rights of saying they solved the biggest aviation mystery of all time (if you call finding the wreckage without really knowing the circumstances behind it “solving” it). There will be businesses, adventurers and such (with either the resources themselves or the ability to access the resources) who are capable of mounting large technological projects and who will be willing to undertake such searches.

An “Elon Musk” type of person is one who immediately comes to my mind who fits that bill. Anyone who can get his own personal Tesla into orbit around the world certainly has the skills required to mount a search should he be so inclined. It probably wouldn’t be him but it may be someone else like him. Or….it could be another company similar to Ocean Infinity or as others have pointed out earlier in this thread, even Ocean Infinity itself deciding to get back in the game. It won’t likely be the government of a foreign state and in fact, I think it would unlikely that a government would start a new search in the future.

Any new information, particularly such as more wreckage washing up on a shore somewhere and/or new technology (either of which may help pinpoint the search area more precisely) may be all that is needed to trigger someone to say “let’s give it another go”. Finding something like a seat cushion or some other part similar to the flaperon already found can be a big deal to professionals who study ocean currents. It is remarkable what can be learned from ocean currents these days, particularly if more data becomes available.

Finally, I echo the comments made earlier about the considerable amount of time taken to locate the Titanic wreckage and the fact that MH370 wreckage would be even smaller and harder to find, even if still largely intact. Future new technologies could shorten that time however.
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:19 pm

Just a question, please excuse me, I know this was probably discussed before but there are so many threads and posts that is impossible to find something very specific.
I just saw on YT the 60 minutes special program about MH370. At some point, one of the guests said the Malaysian government doesn’t want to take possession of the flaperon and other debries recovered at or close to the African coast. Is that true? And if the answer is yes, is there any explanation from the authorities to justify such decision?

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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:45 am

salttee wrote:
BFO aka Burst frequency off set, sounds complex but it is just a measure of the amount of Doppler effect introduced into the above signal. Logically it is not complex and should not be hard to understand for anyone who has ever taken a high school science class. Anyone who doesn't understand Doppler effect really has no business offering opinions on anything more technical than a bicycle IMO. However, the detection of, and measurement of, the Doppler effect in the Inmarsat signal is not nearly so easy as the measurement of the travel time of the signal. But Inmarsat has been able to measure the Doppler shift in their signals introduced by moving aircraft dependably and can repeat these calculations on test aircraft. The amount of information provided from BFO signals is limited and even when accurately presented, the BFO (Doppler) shift can be due to multiple scenarios in the unseen target aircraft IE: descending can be interpreted as movement away from the satellite, while maintaining altitude but turning away from the satellite's direction could be interpreted as descending. So BFO information needs to be treated with caution. But there is no doubt of its validity.

You've been beating this "the BFO BTO information is phony" drum for four years now. Why don't you either get an education or STFU?


You are the one that acts like a little brat, tells people to get an education and STFU, if they are not as close minded as you nor agree with your nonsense view that it's case closed - Z did it - 100% Why don't you STFU or just go elsewhere since you know what happened? Seriously? You know what happened, right? You keep failing to convince others to accept your conclusions. You cant even get the Z probably did it people to accept it as 100% case closed. So why do you keep it up? Why bother? What are you getting out of this? You seem to have a difficult time grasping that people have different opinions among many other differences; I think you might be the one in need of an education.

I know that the BTO is very simple mathematics. But the methodology used to interpret the BFO data took some time to work out - by professionals with much more than a high school mathematics education. I can assure you that nothing about doppler effect was discussed during high school mathematics (maybe in your USA it is). All I have suggested is that the data or, more likely the interpretation of the data (BFO soecifically), *could* be wrong which is therefore why I dont accept it as 100% true. It probably is all correct, but there could be an error somewhere. However, since that data is all we have to work out where the plane went, and MH370 interests me, I will continue to work with the data. Several searches have now come up empty, but at least areas are being hopefully rulled out.

You might have no doubt about the validity of the BFO information, as you have no doubt about what happened, but plenty of others are still prepared to question it and, IMHO, all of your childish insults will continue to not change a thing.
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salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia set to announce resumption of search as early as this week

Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:37 am

If you know that BTO is simple mathematics, why have you been posting crap links like the one above for the last four years? Why have you been throwing out vague innuendos questioning the Inmarsat data year after year?You've been on a campaign to discredit Inmarsat since day one. Remember this from early 2014?

777Jet wrote:
(Part 69 post #186) My posts from the first day Inmarsat was mentioned was that the data could be wrong either mistakenly or intentionally and I even suggested that Inmarsat could be 'in on it' for whatever reason so I don't take anything that Inmarsat says too seriously...

Applied ignorance is not equal to an "open mind".

BTW
The Z did it theory is now standard fare even for the MSM; the only people left denying it are the pilots union types, a few Malaysians and clickbait clowns. I don't have to bother with the "fire in the hold" type nonsense anymore.

Nothing of any importance hangs on the BFO, the southern track is proven by the debris in Madagascar, showing that it went south was the only big find from BFO. Everything else the geeks banter about when they put their magnifying glass to the BFO data is just nebulous stuff anyway.

Give it a rest. It doesn't make you sound clever or knowledgeable anyway.
 
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777Jet
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Re: MH370: Malaysia set to announce resumption of search as early as this week

Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:18 am

salttee wrote:
The Z did it theory is now standard fare even for the MSM; the only people left denying it are the pilots union types, a few Malaysians and clickbait clowns. I don't have to bother with the "fire in the hold" type nonsense anymore.

Nothing of any importance hangs on the BFO, the southern track is proven by the debris in Madagascar, showing that it went south was the only big find from BFO. Everything else the geeks banter about when they put their magnifying glass to the BFO data is just nebulous stuff anyway.

Give it a rest. It doesn't make you sound clever or knowledgeable anyway.


I think you are the one who needs to give it a rest. As I said, you believe to know what happened with 100% certainty so why do you even bother continuing to waffle on? You have the same chance to convince others to accept your case closed scenario as others have to convince you otherwise - no chance. You should be happy and have closure to know what happened and now focus your efforts on solving another unsolved mystery. Claiming to know that Z did it 100% certainly does not make you sound clever or knowledgeable; it actually makes you sound foolish but as this is the internet it doesn't matter one bit what people think about each.

There is not evidence beyond reasonable doubt to place the blame on Z with certainty despite far more things pointing to him. I think MH370 was 99% intentional. As for who, I place 95% odds on Z. However, it was F's first time alone in a 777, there were questions around his relationship, and he was type rated so he could have easily taken the plane. There were also the two Iranians with fake passports but I would give F more chances of doing it than them. Then there could be others on board. I am certain that there are things that we don't fully know about everyone on that plane. Remote hijacking. There are other intentional scenarios. Really, there is not a chance that Z would be convicted in a court beyond reasonable doubt and there are other intentional possibilities despite Z being the most probable explanation. It's a shame that you can't see that because I do enjoy engaging with you and all others interested in MH370. I also appreciate it that a few people still take the time to discuss this important event even though it has gone into the back of the minds of most people if not forgotten about entirely.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90,717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9,306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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Veigar
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Re: MH370: Malaysia resumes search to find aircraft

Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:11 pm

Haven't really been up to date but is the search for that missing Boeing 727 long halted? Speaking of that 727, it proves that this type of aircraft missing thing has happened before and solutions could be made... like putting some sort of tracking device on it that can't be turned off by anyone on the plane. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this by the way, please, bit of a noob here.
 
salttee
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Re: MH370: Malaysia set to announce resumption of search as early as this week

Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:21 pm

777Jet wrote:
salttee wrote:
The Z did it theory is now standard fare even for the MSM; the only people left denying it are the pilots union types, a few Malaysians and clickbait clowns. I don't have to bother with the "fire in the hold" type nonsense anymore.

Nothing of any importance hangs on the BFO, the southern track is proven by the debris in Madagascar, showing that it went south was the only big find from BFO. Everything else the geeks banter about when they put their magnifying glass to the BFO data is just nebulous stuff anyway.

Give it a rest. It doesn't make you sound clever or knowledgeable anyway.


I think you are the one who needs to give it a rest. As I said, you believe to know what happened with 100% certainty so why do you even bother continuing to waffle on? You have the same chance to convince others to accept your case closed scenario as others have to convince you otherwise - no chance. You should be happy and have closure to know what happened and now focus your efforts on solving another unsolved mystery. Claiming to know that Z did it 100% certainly does not make you sound clever or knowledgeable; it actually makes you sound foolish but as this is the internet it doesn't matter one bit what people think about each.

There is not evidence beyond reasonable doubt to place the blame on Z with certainty despite far more things pointing to him. I think MH370 was 99% intentional. As for who, I place 95% odds on Z. However, it was F's first time alone in a 777, there were questions around his relationship, and he was type rated so he could have easily taken the plane. There were also the two Iranians with fake passports but I would give F more chances of doing it than them. Then there could be others on board. I am certain that there are things that we don't fully know about everyone on that plane. Remote hijacking. There are other intentional scenarios. Really, there is not a chance that Z would be convicted in a court beyond reasonable doubt and there are other intentional possibilities despite Z being the most probable explanation. It's a shame that you can't see that because I do enjoy engaging with you and all others interested in MH370. I also appreciate it that a few people still take the time to discuss this important event even though it has gone into the back of the minds of most people if not forgotten about entirely.
Now you want to change the subject, you don't want to question Inmarsat anymore, now you want to reverse your last four years of posting and say you doubt "Z did it" (while still saying there is a 95% chance he did do it.) It seems like your only objective is to argue. Please go back to the spyhunter thread and leave the actual discussion of MH-370 to others.
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