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nycfly75
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LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:17 pm

German airline Lufthansa has offered 500 million euros ($590 million) to acquire the planes, airport runway slots and air crew of Alitalia.

Lufthansa has also proposed halving Alitalia's workforce of 12,000 employees and reducing its short- and medium-range flights, according to Corriere della Sera.


Lufthansa Group Press Release:

"The Lufthansa Group has submitted an offer letter today, expressing its interest in establishing a "NewAlitalia". Lufthansa has opted not to make an offer for the complete Airline but has stated interest in only parts of the Global network traffic and European and domestic point-to-point business.

The offer includes a concept for a newly structured Alitalia with a focused business model ("NewAlitalia"), which could develop long-term economic prospects.

The responsible commissioners have agreed to maintain confidentiality regarding the details of the offer."

https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... 4bed9a4929
Last edited by SQ22 on Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
Theseus
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:19 pm

Wow. How long ago did LH last make an offer for a bailed out airline ? One week ?
 
dubaiamman243
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:22 pm

Good Luck with that. Akbar of QR wants to make Meridiana the 'real national airline' of Italy. Lets see how things will turn out!
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
ty97
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:25 pm

Just buy BA, IB, AF, and KL while you're at it. Might as well get the inevitable over with.
 
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vegas005
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:31 pm

it gets worse and worse in terms of competition and choice....
 
VC10er
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:35 pm

I assume they would keep the brand as they did with SWISS?

This is big news - especially if it really happens.
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
YIMBY
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:38 pm

Indeed, Lufthansa is the very only airline that has some chances to make Alitalia profitable, given their experience on Italia.
More likely they will burn money, though. Why not try SK, TP, LO,..., when you are in the mood...
 
SCQ83
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:43 pm

Lufthansa Italia had their main hub at MXP.

Will they keep Alitalia focused on FCO (long-haul) or move ops to MXP?
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:43 pm

vegas005 wrote:
it gets worse and worse in terms of competition and choice....

The Italians have fought for how long to keep Alitalia going? I mean if it was one profitable airline buying another, I get what you're saying. But enough is enough with Alitalia. At least some will get to keep their jobs this way.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
1900Driver
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:55 pm

I think the Italian Governement would welcome this with arms wide open. I very much dislike AZ’s current business strategy & LH could really make a difference. The Alitalia brand is still strong in the Italian market. They would also be better positioned with star alliance rather then skyteam & that horrible JV they have.
 
steman
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:57 pm

Stay away from AZ if you don't want to get burned, Alitalia is still a state run airline (although officially private) , a reservoir of votes and favours and the political toy of many subject who have their own particular interests at heart and not those of the airline or the Country. I really hope LH know what they are doing. Good luck
 
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Dano1977
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:28 pm

How does one say "Monopoly" in German?
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
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kelvin933
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:29 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
How does one say "Monopoly" in German?

You drop the y.
“Nations have no permanent friends or allies, they only have permanent interests.”
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:46 pm

Strategic move. The offer won´t be popular with the unions and the Italian state but will distract nicely from the AB purchase. And if LH gets want they want, it would be a bargain.
 
vadodara
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Best change for AlItalia. Makes sense for LH as well. They have experience of making Swiss profitable with a limited long-haul portfolio. The same would apply with both Milan and Rome retaining a slate of flights.

Anyone concerned with competition, feel free to invite Norwegian over.
 
masseybrown
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:31 pm

Dano1977 wrote:
How does one say "Monopoly" in German?


Monopol. In the case of failing companies, the US usually waives monopoly concerns in the interest of preserving at least some employment. Does it work that way in the EU?
 
ZEDZAG
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:35 pm

steman wrote:
Stay away from AZ if you don't want to get burned, Alitalia is still a state run airline (although officially private) , a reservoir of votes and favours and the political toy of many subject who have their own particular interests at heart and not those of the airline or the Country. I really hope LH know what they are doing. Good luck


Why stay away?

LH knows what its doing, they are offering to buy parts of AZ, and not the whole thing, just the parts they need, the name, planes, slots and some crew. Big difference in this is if they do it like this they make new contracts, on their terms. Not like EY bought the whole package. Another thing that matters is this is an intra EU buyout, and not like EY or QR from out of EU buy
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:50 pm

vegas005 wrote:
it gets worse and worse in terms of competition and choice....

Many a.net members work in the aviation industry so are in favor of monopolistic pricing.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Dutchy
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:55 pm

So they are going to try again. First Lufthansa Italia and now this. Good luck with that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:07 pm

Alitalia has received a total of 7 offers.
Easyjet also presented an offer for the avitation part.
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:07 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So they are going to try again. First Lufthansa Italia and now this. Good luck with that.

As per the earlier Alitalia thread, this offer is not at all likely to be accepted by the state commissioners who are managing the carrier while it is being sold.

In short, it's some sort of distraction or posturing play.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
jbs2886
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:14 pm

VCEflyboy wrote:
Alitalia has received a total of 7 offers.
Easyjet also presented an offer for the avitation part.


Do we know who else?
 
dcajet
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:30 pm

The Italians would be crazy not to receive this offer with arms wide open. The Lufthansa Group has to be one of the few airline groups out there that has the track record of turning around basket cases (ahem, ahem LX). AZ in its present state is a failed business and LH could be the ticket to a brighter future for all involved.

Besides, nothing like some Teutonic discipline for those AZ unions. Just what the doctor ordered.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
ZEDZAG
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
As per the earlier Alitalia thread, this offer is not at all likely to be accepted by the state commissioners who are managing the carrier while it is being sold.

In short, it's some sort of distraction or posturing play.


This is a smart move for Italian tax payers.

Just now I read on BBC that goverment pumped €600m this year, and now postponed the sale till april/2018 and pumped another €300m

Carrier managers obviously want to sell the whole thing as a package, but I think that is not gonna happen.
 
LAXLHR
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:53 pm

Having spent 5 loooooong months in Italy this year, I am well aware of the Italian ways.

Alitalia reminds me of gross backend points in a movie. You make your money regardless of the films success from the net profits/loss. Google: Harry Potter P&L, after the WB took its "distribution fee" the movie was in the red, even after $900 million in box office. "Hollywood Accounting"

It's not that AZ could not be profitable, but its clear to many that someone in some capacity is scamming. ITALIAN/ALITALIA ACCOUNTING (somehow from the gross) and so the airline can never ever make a profit, impossible under such conditions...and it has not for eons. Do I have proof? (cause I know you Americans love proof) No, nor do I care THAT much....but a friend at AZ HQ has dropped a few hints on how it is, and from what I've seen in Italy on a daily basis, would bot be surprised one bit. The country is full of scams, kick backs you name it.

LH is not playing around. They'll gobble up the good stuff, leave the debt/scams behind and control from Germany. The name will remain or similar due to nationalistic pride if a deal is done.

The Germans never really lost, did they?!?! ...no one wants to say it, and no one bats an eye!
BA IB ET JM EA GK PA VS AA SN HP CO WN NW DL UA AC US LH LX OS JL QF QR WY MH CX U2 EK 9W UK TP VY VN LO OK OZ UL SQ LA KL

707 727 L10 732-NG 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 772 773 787 DC8 DC9 DC10 M80 M11 100 AB3 310 318 319 320 321 330s 340s 350 380
 
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Revelation
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:59 pm

ZEDZAG wrote:
This is a smart move for Italian tax payers.

They've shown time and time again that they do not care.

Apparently almost all of them have some relative or friend who gets some sort of paycheck from AZ.

ZEDZAG wrote:
Just now I read on BBC that goverment pumped €600m this year, and now postponed the sale till april/2018 and pumped another €300m

Carrier managers obviously want to sell the whole thing as a package, but I think that is not gonna happen.

I suspect it's just another 'kick the can down the road" move.

They just bought another six months of government largess.

Who knows, maybe in another 6 months there will be some other crisis that comes along that allows them to get themselves another free ride without the EU cracking down on them.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
nycfly75
Topic Author
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:48 pm

ZEDZAG wrote:
Revelation wrote:
As per the earlier Alitalia thread, this offer is not at all likely to be accepted by the state commissioners who are managing the carrier while it is being sold.

In short, it's some sort of distraction or posturing play.


This is a smart move for Italian tax payers.

Just now I read on BBC that goverment pumped €600m this year, and now postponed the sale till april/2018 and pumped another €300m

Carrier managers obviously want to sell the whole thing as a package, but I think that is not gonna happen.



The problem is the ground side of the business. All of the offers were for Alitalia's airside assets (Routes, Slots, Planes, Pilots/FA's etc). Rightfully, no one wants to deal with the ground side of the business (where most of the debt, inefficiency and corruption lie). The Italian government and the bankruptcy admins want to sell the entire company. I doubt they will be successful in that goal unless Alitalia gets re-nationalized in some form. I see two options, since I always maintain that the Italian government will never allow AZ to go out of business:

1) LH's offer is (smartly) accepted and Alitalia is reconstituted as a new airline within the Lufthansa Group & Star Alliance, in the mold of Swiss. Alitalia's name and identity are retained with a focus on long haul routes, coinciding with a more efficient domestic and European network.

2) If a deal cannot be struck for the entire company (unlikely) or the current admins do not want to just sell off the air side of the business, there will be immense pressure to re-nationalize the company with potentially the government utilizing other Italian companies that they have a golden share in to indirectly nationalize AZ through these firms.

We shall see...the drama continues, but at least today we know there is a viable way for AZ to survive under a more efficient LH Group.
 
ahj2000
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:09 am

VCEflyboy wrote:
Alitalia has received a total of 7 offers.
Easyjet also presented an offer for the avitation part.

WHO are the 7? Is IAG interested?
-Andrés Juánez
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:02 am

Revelation wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So they are going to try again. First Lufthansa Italia and now this. Good luck with that.

As per the earlier Alitalia thread, this offer is not at all likely to be accepted by the state commissioners who are managing the carrier while it is being sold.

In short, it's some sort of distraction or posturing play.


You are right, too bad nobody is calling the bluff. Competitors can not complain about being shafted by LH, when they are not even trying to fight them.
 
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vegas005
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:00 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
vegas005 wrote:
it gets worse and worse in terms of competition and choice....

The Italians have fought for how long to keep Alitalia going? I mean if it was one profitable airline buying another, I get what you're saying. But enough is enough with Alitalia. At least some will get to keep their jobs this way.



you are missing the bigger picture which I refer to which is not just Alitalia..... LH is/has bought everything. Trying to get a reasonably priced ticket out of ZRH for example is becoming almost impossible.
 
WIederling
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:09 am

dcajet wrote:
Just what the doctor ordered.


Pft.

Lazy Eight squared. unlimited force applied to an immovable mass. -> Boom.:-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
ahmetdouas
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:34 am

vegas005 wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
vegas005 wrote:
it gets worse and worse in terms of competition and choice....

The Italians have fought for how long to keep Alitalia going? I mean if it was one profitable airline buying another, I get what you're saying. But enough is enough with Alitalia. At least some will get to keep their jobs this way.



you are missing the bigger picture which I refer to which is not just Alitalia..... LH is/has bought everything. Trying to get a reasonably priced ticket out of ZRH for example is becoming almost impossible.


People in ZRH are rich anyway, who needs cheap tickets!

It's not the same in Italy as even if LH buys AZ, in Europe at least you have a lot of competition as Easyjet and Ryanair are major competitors on most routes.
 
UAL777UK
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:58 am

Jeez. LH is going for mainland Europe domination! Be interesting to see how this plays out. AZ has been a basket case for too long. Someone like LH with a sold background certainly needs to step in and sort her out.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:36 am

Revelation wrote:
ZEDZAG wrote:
This is a smart move for Italian tax payers.


They've shown time and time again that they do not care.

Apparently almost all of them have some relative or friend who gets some sort of paycheck from AZ.

[quote="ZEDZAG"]

That's really seriously insulting.
Italian tax payers have really no say in how (every) the govt (left or right) always decides in the end to protect their votes bucket and not upset the status quo. Do you really think taxpayers are happy that their money is being squandered like that?
And, no, I personally don't know anybody who is receiving "some sort of paycheck" from AZ. What would "some sort of paycheck" be anyway?? A personal monthly bribery check to keep quiet, or what??
I mean, seriously. I am expecting better from a poster like you.
 
ltbewr
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:08 am

I am not sure how Italian or EC labor rules work, but I suspect it would be very difficult for LH to selectively end the employment most of the workers at AZ or transfer them to 3rd party, non-union, much lower paying contractors in Italy or the EC. Unless LH pares down the staffing to modern and sustainable levels, then AZ will completely die off. Of course this means the loss of 1000's of living wage jobs that no politician there wants to lose.
 
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seahawk
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:12 am

LH only has made on offer for the flight crews.
 
tommy1808
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:16 am

ltbewr wrote:
I am not sure how Italian or EC labor rules work, but I suspect it would be very difficult for LH to selectively end the employment most of the workers at AZ or transfer them to 3rd party, non-union, much lower paying contractors in Italy or the EC.


If you pick and buy departments, you only get those employees. What the reminder of the company does with their share of staff is not the buyers business.

Companies used to engineer situations like this, split the company in profitable and non-profitable companies, let them run in parallel for a bit, let the non-profitable part die. If that was the obvious intend, you get in trouble, but since LH and AZ have never been part of the same company or holding, this wouldn't apply.

Italy can also not sustain keeping AZ flying with tax payers money, at some point the EU will say "no", when it becomes apparent that those loans are not for bridging until the company is sold in parts or whole.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
MIflyer12
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:22 am

oldannyboy wrote:

That's really seriously insulting.
Italian tax payers have really no say in how (every) the govt (left or right) always decides in the end to protect their votes bucket and not upset the status quo. Do you really think taxpayers are happy that their money is being squandered like that?


In a democracy people get the government they deserve. Italians keep electing politicians who squander tax money on Alitalia. Look at the Brits who voted for Brexit. Look at the cohort who elected Trump. They didn't want smart, thoughtfully considered solutions. They wanted simple sound-bites.

There are no solutions to Alitalia that simultaneously maintain 100% employment (a political preference) and give an investor a decent chance of economic return.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:43 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:

That's really seriously insulting.
Italian tax payers have really no say in how (every) the govt (left or right) always decides in the end to protect their votes bucket and not upset the status quo. Do you really think taxpayers are happy that their money is being squandered like that?


In a democracy people get the government they deserve. Italians keep electing politicians who squander tax money on Alitalia. Look at the Brits who voted for Brexit. Look at the cohort who elected Trump. They didn't want smart, thoughtfully considered solutions. They wanted simple sound-bites.

There are no solutions to Alitalia that simultaneously maintain 100% employment (a political preference) and give an investor a decent chance of economic return.


Of course, I am not arguing over that. I was simply responding to the accusations made to the general public.
I for one hope AZ gets shut, just like SABENA and Swisaair before.
 
WIederling
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:23 pm

vegas005 wrote:
it gets worse and worse in terms of competition and choice....


myopic.
There is a reason that wonderful competing choice went belly up.

The US solution would be to turn the body belly down again and give it another round of going belly up
while f*ing all those that sustained damage from the act.
( those having provided services in good faith. Be that materials or services/work. )

"Sunny side" Chapt 11 proceedings are more often than not a temporary uplift.
if the boon is consumed the same downsides surface back again.

The solution here is to dissolve that entity while minimizing damage to the remainder involved.
Work contracts do not survive bankruptcy.
Murphy is an optimist
 
FermiParadox
Posts: 83
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Re: LH makes formal offer for Alitalia

Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:56 pm

WIederling wrote:
vegas005 wrote:

The US solution would be to turn the body belly down again and give it another round of going belly up
while f*ing all those that sustained damage from the act.
( those having provided services in good faith. Be that materials or services/work. )

"Sunny side" Chapt 11 proceedings are more often than not a temporary uplift.
if the boon is consumed the same downsides surface back again.


Except 1) The creditors (those who have provided services in good faith) get to have a say in what happens in the proceedings. They often choose to "take a chance" by having an ownership stake of the re-formed company. And often times they do better than what they would have if they had decided to liquidate. That's exactly why Chapter 11 is chosen more frequently than 7.

2) "more often than not a temporary uplift" Can you provide data on that? Off the top of my head, I can think if significantly more companies that are hugely profitable now despite a Chapter 11 in the past. AA,DL, UA, General Motors, Chuck E Cheese, Samsonite, Macy's, heck even the Pittsburgh Penguins went bankrupt. All making good money now.
 
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VCEflyboy
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Re: LH makes formal offer for parts of Alitalia

Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:48 am

Update:
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.ft.com/ ... 61783e5589

Cerberus willing to bid for AZ in its entirety.
The US fund has previously turned around AC.

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