ikolkyo wrote:

AC will exercise options for the MAX without a doubt, CSeries has no aircraft for the 150+ market.

CS-500 is coming...

ACCS300 wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

ACCS300 wrote:

Agreed but AC may exercise less options ( 18 options and 30 purchase rights ) on the MAX and add more CSeries in their place, which I hope happens.

With 45 CS300s on order I think that capacity segment is locked down, I honestly could see part of it being converted to CS100s. AC will exercise options for the MAX without a doubt, CSeries has no aircraft for the 150+ market.

...or AC could opt for the A321neo like they should have in the first place.

Possible but again, sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

I understand the excitement regarding this news, but why would AC change their orders for 737s or CSeries?

Is it going to be possible to combine c series type rating with the a320 series?

golfradio wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

AC will exercise options for the MAX without a doubt, CSeries has no aircraft for the 150+ market.

CS-500 is coming...

Can you link me the announcement?

Also AC recently increased orders for the MAX 8 which is where the CS500 would be.

Happy and sad for BBD, would have loved to create a star of their own in the CSeries but I guess it really had to come down to this with Boeing doing their things and other issues at the company. May CSeries have success!

Man oh man oh man.

Boeing just got hit by a train they didn't even see coming.

Congratulations to Airbus and Bombardier! I look forward to the day (if) they decide to stretch the CSeries to meet the 757 mission profile.

This is exciting, I hope DL decides to order even more CSeries as a result of this decision, it is a great sized aircraft for many of their routes. I cannot wait to see them in DL's fleet next year!

ACCS300 wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

ACCS300 wrote:

Agreed but AC may exercise less options ( 18 options and 30 purchase rights ) on the MAX and add more CSeries in their place, which I hope happens.

With 45 CS300s on order I think that capacity segment is locked down, I honestly could see part of it being converted to CS100s. AC will exercise options for the MAX without a doubt, CSeries has no aircraft for the 150+ market.

...or AC could opt for the A321neo like they should have in the first place.

Quite possible still! Hope they do!

Airbus to Boeing: "Karma is a bitch"

f4f3a wrote:

Is it going to be possible to combine c series type rating with the a320 series?

I'm not sure but that would be HUGE if happens.

MD80MKE wrote:

f4f3a wrote:

Is it going to be possible to combine c series type rating with the a320 series?

I'm not sure but that would be HUGE if happens.

Surely not? its a completely different family of aircraft. If its possible then Airbus are laughing!

cvgComair wrote:

This is exciting, I hope DL decides to order even more CSeries as a result of this decision, it is a great sized aircraft for many of their routes. I cannot wait to see them in DL's fleet next year!

True. But I think it also depends on how soon Airbus can get thier Mobile assembly line ready for C Series.

ikolkyo wrote:

Happy and sad for BBD, would have loved to create a star of their own in the CSeries but I guess it really had to come down to this with Boeing doing their things and other issues at the company. May CSeries have success!

Look forward to a lot more Canadian-European partnerships now that CETA is in place and Trump is hell-bent on destroying NAFTA.

ACCS300 wrote:

CFM565A1 wrote:

ACCS300 wrote:

I'll bet AC is wishing they'd never gone with the MAX now. I see both major Canadian carriers hugely supporting this partnership especially in the wake of Boeing's tanking image here.

Mr. WestJet has shown a bit of anti-Bombardier sentiment when they refused to defer the Q400 orders... I won't get into that as it's done. WS will still support Boeing (as they should and I hate admitting that), why waste a good longstanding relationship with them and a plane that fits them well.

Air Canada, who knows they could reduce the 737 order and ship them to Rouge or possibly give Rouge a new fleet, but I think too much time and money has been put into the 737 prep so I say nothing will happen... now if this had been 2 years ago then I'd consider the opposite.

Agreed but AC may exercise less options ( 18 options and 30 purchase rights ) on the MAX and add more CSeries in their place, which I hope happens.

Again quite possible

f4f3a wrote:

Is it going to be possible to combine c series type rating with the a320 series?

Nope, not possible. That's one of the issues they need to sort out. Communality between the diverse product lines is one of the top priorities of Airbus.

danj555 wrote:

How will Delta not have to pay tariffs now? The 220% tariff is on the product, not the manufacturer.

The tariff is on 100-150 seat aircraft from Canada. Not specific to a product, but a country of origin.

so does this mean BBD is slowly getting out of the commercial aviation market? Will they focus on business jets?

basically, what does this mean for BBD, other than avoiding bankruptcy

It’s interesting times for Boeing. Their actions with the DOC may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back, in terms of bringing about the Airbus buy-in.

Bad: It’s bad news for Boeing, in that the aircraft they tried to destroy is now, almost certainly going to have a life.

Maybe bad, maybe good: It could be good news as it now becomes more uncertain regarding the development of the CS500, which we all new was the real target of Bowing’s action.

Good: This now effectively resets the balance back to a duopoly. Although, even this good news is tainted in that the balance may now tip towards Airbus.

Interesting times ahead.

Question… will Boeing now come up with a competing product, or will they simply cede most of this segment of the market? I don’t think they could win a price war with Airbus backing up the CSeries.

The support package for this a/c likely to be
Much improved now with Airbus . Also tech transfer might be useful as well

So much for wanting a third competitor to the A/B duopoly. This thread hilariously exposes that the real point of rooting for Bombardier wasn't for the existence of another manufacturer.

This is sad news for the CSeries and for manufacturer variety in general. It's a shame to see Bombardier effectively end as a manufacturer. Now the CS500 is likely a non-starter, and having Airbus on board still doesn't change the fact that the business case for the CS100 and CS300 is extremely weak. In fact this might makes CSeries sales even weaker, as Airbus likely won't be willing to put up with loss-making aircraft that somewhat competes against itself. In the end, I think this is Airbus helping kill off BBD and the CSeries. It just might take more time now.

WaywardMemphian wrote:

The US gains more jobs in Alabama

The factory in Mobile only has so much capacity. Unless they're planning on expanding it it might not necessarily mean more jobs, but just that existing workers will be building a different product.

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

I sure hope we still won't purchase those useless Super Hornets!!!

I hope not! This should be a lesson to our friends from the south!

ikolkyo wrote:

ACCS300 wrote:

CFM565A1 wrote:

Mr. WestJet has shown a bit of anti-Bombardier sentiment when they refused to defer the Q400 orders... I won't get into that as it's done. WS will still support Boeing (as they should and I hate admitting that), why waste a good longstanding relationship with them and a plane that fits them well.

Air Canada, who knows they could reduce the 737 order and ship them to Rouge or possibly give Rouge a new fleet, but I think too much time and money has been put into the 737 prep so I say nothing will happen... now if this had been 2 years ago then I'd consider the opposite.

Agreed but AC may exercise less options ( 18 options and 30 purchase rights ) on the MAX and add more CSeries in their place, which I hope happens.

With 45 CS300s on order I think that capacity segment is locked down, I honestly could see part of it being converted to CS100s. AC will exercise options for the MAX without a doubt, CSeries has no aircraft for the 150+ market.

Say no to the CS100 simply because of the amount of commitment AC to Sky Regional’s 175 fleet expansion and have outstanding options for more CRJ-900LRs... I don’t a need for the 100 yet partly because the 190 didn’t work for AC. As for the options, I know Boeing fans are hopeful that they stay put... I wouldn’t be surprised if they let them expire as they’ve done with the 787 options which are about expired. Reason is you’ve seen them go from “we’re replacing all A319/320/321 with 737 Max” to changing their language to “our A321s will supplement the 737s”.

They aren’t finished with A320 family planes anytime soon and that’s right from the top at AC.

Hopefully this means some b6 orders may be in store. It would be a perfect replacement for the E190.

golfradio wrote:

Karma. As Sun Tzu said, "Never back an enemy into a corner". Now Boeing's nightmare is just beginning.

Airbus buys itself breathing room by allowing C-Series to carry on with the 100-150 and potentially an A320 replacement in the form of a CS-500. While Airbus itself focuses on a response to a potential Boeing MoM initiative.

A great win for Airbus and a good out for BBD.

THAT! ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Right there!

Boeing lost their way with the move to Chicago, and moving so much work out of company. Image doesn't build airplanes. Had they done what they have historically, and built a competeing and/or superior product, maybe the CSeries never would have been. The choice of legal and political shenaigans over engineering excellence has come home to roost. BBD and AB's combined brain power and technologies are going to be a powerful competitor.

Short of buying the E-2 or other program, Boeing is left out of the 100-150 market. Too many aircraft already out there. E-2, SSJ, ARJ-21, and MRJ.

wrongwayup wrote:

danj555 wrote:

How will Delta not have to pay tariffs now? The 220% tariff is on the product, not the manufacturer.

The tariff is on 100-150 seat aircraft from Canada. Not specific to a product, but a country of origin.

The program has worth=questions about subsidies are quashed!

Q400 needs a new engine(which will be available) and a row of seats fore and aft of the wings.
A 100 seater turboprop will keep a lot of Canadians in work for another decade.

ExDubai wrote:

f4f3a wrote:

Is it going to be possible to combine c series type rating with the a320 series?

Nope, not possible. That's one of the issues they need to sort out. Communality between the diverse product lines is one of the top priorities of Airbus.

With some cockpit modifications it might be

wrongwayup wrote:

danj555 wrote:

How will Delta not have to pay tariffs now? The 220% tariff is on the product, not the manufacturer.

The tariff is on 100-150 seat aircraft from Canada. Not specific to a product, but a country of origin.

I'm not familiar with country of origin roll-up for aerospace products under NAFTA (or WTO rules if NAFTA somehow skipped aerospace), but there's more to country of origin calcs than just final assembly point. Presumably BBD and Airbus have done the math on Mobile.

MSPNWA wrote:

So much for wanting a third competitor to the A/B duopoly. This thread hilariously exposes that the real point of rooting for Bombardier wasn't for the existence of another manufacturer.

For some, I'm sure. Others I think are more interested in the aircraft than whoever is making it.

Not sure I believe that Boeing were completely clueless here though, as some do. They must have had an inkling this was a risk, and decided it would be an acceptable outcome.

aircanadaa330 wrote:

so does this mean BBD is slowly getting out of the commercial aviation market? Will they focus on business jets?

basically, what does this mean for BBD, other than bankruptcy

Well… it leaves BBD to lick its wounds for a while, certainly. But, maybe this will allow them to focus more on their other programs. The CRJ program still has potential. Passengers may not love them, but with scope clauses in the USA being what they are, there’s going to be a future market there for replacing the existing regional jets. Maybe some CRJ NEO with new wings? The 90-seat Q400 is showIng some promise lately. Perhaps there’s room for more improvement there too.

Now that this deal is setup, and assuming all the regulators approve, it does set BBD to improve its credit rating. Hopefully, they will use this opportunity to get things in order, to make the most of the profitable programs, and to build BBD up again. Certainly, they can always benefit from the engineering knowledge the C-Series program has given them.

If there is a gap in the Airbus product line I can't see it.
From ATR42-600 all the way up to A380 they've now got a strong line for the next decade or more.

Wow. Just wow. This is a stunning development. Did anyone see this coming?

Wow! Major news for the program.

I wonder just how clever Boeing is feeling right now.

It's got to be a painful move for Bombardier, though. I get the impression they really felt backed into a corner if they sold a 50.1% stake.

Skywatcher wrote:

Well thought out-this has clearly been in the works for awhile.

Yep. Delta's recent comments seem a lot more clear now.

aircanadaa330 wrote:

so does this mean BBD is slowly getting out of the commercial aviation market? Will they focus on business jets?

basically, what does this mean for BBD, other than avoiding bankruptcy

This is the biggest story here. Bombardier is likely getting out of the commercial aviation business, ans will focus on business jets. The Q400 and regional jets are on the block.

Bombardier is a failed company with little focus. They made a great product, but could not sell it.

For the others here thinking that AC will change their order makeup, or will order the A321neo, think again.I understand this is exciting news, but let's get some perspective. Airbus buying the CSeries allows them to offer a more complete product line without having invested in the R&D.

This deal will be approved by regulators as Airbus is buying a product (CSeries) rather than a competitor (Bombardier Aerospace).

If the Cseries is able to take advantage of the massive Airbus support structure and product familiarity around the world it could be very very good. I love Boeing’s aircraft however, I think they are run fairly poorly right now and I think this wake up call needed to be made.

Biggest winner here is airbus and delta
After that c series and aviation fans and possible purchasers like JetBlue
Bombardier is a looser here. It's truly sad they don't get to see it wholly to the end.
But biggest loser here is Boeing. Here is hoping no Canadian military orders for Boeing products for a long time and tariffs on on Boeing aircraft that competes in the narrow aisle range.

Maybe JetBlue will now be more than kicking the tires of the C-Series.

thumper76 wrote:

ExDubai wrote:

f4f3a wrote:

Is it going to be possible to combine c series type rating with the a320 series?

Nope, not possible. That's one of the issues they need to sort out. Communality between the diverse product lines is one of the top priorities of Airbus.

With some cockpit modifications it might be

It would require a lot more than that. You can't just swap some instruments, you have to completely redo the control and automation software to match Airbus' structure (control laws), write new procedures, and re certify everything with the relevant government authorities. We're talking a multi-year program in the billions of dollars.

leghorn wrote:

If there is a gap in the Airbus product line I can't see it.
From ATR42-600 all the way up to A380 they've now got a strong line for the next decade or more.

True, and Boeing has no small airplane to compete with for years since all of Boeing's engineering resources are tied up with 777x and MOM.

Really good move for both Airbus and Bombardier imho.

leghorn wrote:

Q400 needs a new engine(which will be available) and a row of seats fore and aft of the wings.
A 100 seater turboprop will keep a lot of Canadians in work for another decade.

From what I'm reading Airbus only purchased part of the CSeries program not Bombardier. So the CRJ, Q400, LearJet, Global and Challenger are still 100% Bombardier. Also, it looks like Airbus is only taking on debt so this deal will not cost them a penny up front!

EDIT: I was wrong. Airbus isn't even taking on any debt! (I assumed no cash=debt)

MSPNWA wrote:

So much for wanting a third competitor to the A/B duopoly. This thread hilariously exposes that the real point of rooting for Bombardier wasn't for the existence of another manufacturer.

This is sad news for the CSeries and for manufacturer variety in general. It's a shame to see Bombardier effectively end as a manufacturer.

I completely agree with you, but really and truly, the writing was on the wall for Bombardier for a while, sadly. They missed the opportunity in becoming the third player when Airbus and Boeing muscled in with their warmed-over narrowbodies and stole all the orders. Blunders such as not launching the CS500/700 first, then not being aggressive enough in their sales pitches sealed their fate quite some time ago. As a result, they've been playing catch-up ever since.

At least this move will be an ode to the brilliance of the engineers who designed the CSeries, their work might even influence future Airbus products. If history has taught us anything though, it means Bombardier will cease to exist, or be relegated to regional jets much in the same was as ATR is constrained to 70 seat turboprops. All this would leave the CSeries to become a modern day Dassault Mercure.

Given the precarious situation Bombardier finds themselves in, the Airbus investment is the most realistic solution. Other attempts to restore profits, such as re-engining the CRJ, stretching the Q400 or launching the CS500 just won't save them any more. As others mentioned, at least this will protect Canadian jobs in the short to mid term.

MSPNWA wrote:

So much for wanting a third competitor to the A/B duopoly. This thread hilariously exposes that the real point of rooting for Bombardier wasn't for the existence of another manufacturer.

This is sad news for the CSeries and for manufacturer variety in general. It's a shame to see Bombardier effectively end as a manufacturer. Now the CS500 is likely a non-starter, and having Airbus on board still doesn't change the fact that the business case for the CS100 and CS300 is extremely weak. In fact this might makes CSeries sales even weaker, as Airbus likely won't be willing to put up with loss-making aircraft that somewhat competes against itself. In the end, I think this is Airbus helping kill off BBD and the CSeries. It just might take more time now.

There's multiple elements to it.

I want to see a third competitor in the mainstream of the market.

Failing that, I still want to see the CSeries succeed. Different aircraft types excite me even if they've been acquired by a larger company (or a smaller one - I'd love to see the CL-415's re-enter production, too), and I've got my own connections to the CSeries that endear me to it.

I will watch closely, but my first impression is not that this a move by Airbus to kill off the CSeries. Why give themselves any financial exposure to the program? Why not just join Boeing in using the legal stranglehold against them?

Oh man oh man, I would not want to be the CEO of Boeing trying to explain this cockup to my shareholders. It is a bloody shame that the duopoly is restored in the 120plus marked.

I do hope they will make the CS500 and axe the A319NEO, or leave it as it is as a niche product. Airbus may focus on the proposed A322 and looking a bit further, the CS- might form a technical base for an A320 - A322 replacement, centered around the current A321 and leave the 150- marked to the CS. Excelent move by Airbus, they are the big winner here and to a lesser extent to BBD and its workers, all thanks to Boeing!

MD80MKE wrote:

f4f3a wrote:

Is it going to be possible to combine c series type rating with the a320 series?

I'm not sure but that would be HUGE if happens.

I hope and think they will upgrade the cockpit of the CS-series to make this happen, will be extremely beneficial to small airlines to acquire both products.

RogerMurdock wrote:

thumper76 wrote:

ExDubai wrote:

Nope, not possible. That's one of the issues they need to sort out. Communality between the diverse product lines is one of the top priorities of Airbus.

With some cockpit modifications it might be

It would require a lot more than that. You can't just swap some instruments, you have to completely redo the control and automation software to match Airbus' structure (control laws), write new procedures, and re certify everything with the relevant government authorities. We're talking a multi-year program in the billions of dollars.

And I don't think airbus will mind. The question is how long?

Very happy for the workers in Canada & Northern Ireland if this means they keep their jobs. Looks as
though more US jobs could arise from this development too. Excellent news.

Well, a couple of thoughts:

(1) That's the end of the CS-500 dream. Airbus wants a 100-150 seat aircraft from BBD, to slot in UNDER its current product line.

(2) After 7.5 years (which is pretty fast), Airbus has a call option for all of BBD's shares in the joint venture at the then current market value (and BBD has a put option similarly, which it would exercise if things didn't work out). So basically, Airbus can buy the whole shebang in 7.5 years.

(3) Airbus has control, which leads back to point (1) above.

(4) Nobody is putting in any cash, so Airbus basically gets 50.1 percent of the value of the program in return for marketing (which they are pretty dang good at), cost reduction from supply-chain expertise, and support. If the program is as successful as we hope it will be, that's a BIG price for BBD to pay. Clearly, backs against the wall.

(5) BBD has to fund any cash shortfalls, up to a couple hundred million. So hopefully this will get some revenue coming in, because otherwise...ouch.

(6) I didn't see anything in the press release about Northern Ireland and the BBD wing factory there. That's a big issue for the Brits. Hopefully, that part of the supply chain will remain in place, or there will be more tsuris over this.

(7) Dear Boeing: I love you, but. (Cue Nelson from The Simpsons:) Ha Ha! You tried to kill the C-Series, and instead you drove it right into the arms of your biggest, most effective competitor, who will support and defend it, if only to throw mud in your face. You probably were successful in making sure that no -500 was going to come along and compete with the ancient-design 737, and given that I always thought that that was your goal, you succeeded. However, to the extent that you wanted the airplane to go away entirely, that now ain't happenin'.

wjcandee wrote:

Well, a couple of thoughts:

(1) That's the end of the CS-500 dream. Airbus wants a 100-150 seat aircraft from BBD, to slot in UNDER its current product line.

(2) After 7.5 years (which is pretty fast), Airbus has a call option for all of BBD's shares in the joint venture at the then current market value (and BBD has a put option similarly, which it would exercise if things didn't work out). So basically, Airbus can buy the whole shebang in 7.5 years.

(3) Airbus has control, which leads back to point (1) above.

(4) Nobody is putting in any cash, so Airbus basically gets 50.1 percent of the value of the program in return for marketing (which they are pretty dang good at), cost reduction from supply-chain expertise, and support. If the program is as successful as we hope it will be, that's a BIG price for BBD to pay. Clearly, backs against the wall.

(5) BBD has to fund any cash shortfalls, up to a couple hundred million. So hopefully this will get some revenue coming in, because otherwise...ouch.

(6) I didn't see anything in the press release about Northern Ireland and the BBD wing factory there. That's a big issue for the Brits. Hopefully, that part of the supply chain will remain in place, or there will be more tsuris over this.

(7) Dear Boeing: I love you, but. (Cue Nelson from The Simpsons:) Ha Ha! You tried to kill the C-Series, and instead you drove it right into the arms of your biggest, most effective competitor, who will support and defend it, if only to throw mud in your face. You probably were successful in making sure that no -500 was going to come along and compete with the ancient-design 737, and given that I always thought that that was your goal, you succeeded. However, to the extent that you wanted the airplane to go away entirely, that now ain't happenin'.

Wait...BBD has to find any cash shortfalls? Is there a cap on that?

The end of BBD's attempts to compete with Boeing and Airbus, but the events of the last 5 years have shown that they weren't capable of doing this. And with the financial problems affecting the whole company (the rail business is under pressure too) the lack of financial security of its parent must have been a massive drag on sales of the C Series. Freed from this, the aircraft has a much better chance of competing in the marketplace, and getting a better price...

Would US assembly be enough to get around the tariffs, as the US action wasn't only against Canada, but also against N Ireland?