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mat66
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:57 pm

I made to page 10 now, but just want to way in on that tariff question. Maybe it's already mentioned.

The trade deal between the US and EU doesn't allow the kind of tariffs that were put on the C-Series recently. Why there isn't a similar deal between Canada and the US, I don't know.
Why do you think Boeing went to the toothless WTO instead and for decades no less? The tariff thing took 6 months.

And now it's back to page 10 of this incredible good thread for me.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:05 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Small biz jet OEM? The last decade they have been the largest or second depending on measure-revenue or units delivered. Always the largest in units delivered—180-200 per year. They have delivered more bizjets than airliners.

Together with Airbus, BBD at the very least could put out the latest bizjet configured small airliner..... :bigthumbsup:

Image
http://aviationnews.eu/avnews16/wp-cont ... rport.jpeg

Would make a great replacement (depending on price) for the unlamented A318CJ. :airplane:


Reminds me of this..... :cheerful:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... es-334102/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:07 pm

golfradio wrote:

Everyone is a winner in this deal; BBD, Airbus, Quebecois, Canadians and Americans. Except of course Boeing. Boeing sure got shafted by the Trump shenanigans.

How do you blame Trump for something Boeing did to themselves?
ytz wrote:

The Quebec government still owns 20%. And Bombardier another 30%. How exactly do they move production just like that? That's not happening. Production for the US market will move to Mobile, exactly as stated in the Press. And the rest of the world will stay in Montreal. Down the road, I can see some of it migrating to Europe.

Post 2023 Airbus will buy out the remaining shares of the C-Series program. Airbus would then have several options.
- Subcontract BBD to continue to build the Cseries in Mirbeal
-Acquire BBD C-series related assets and put them under an Airbus Canada banner
-Move the Mirbeal final assembly line to Mobile. I think the Cseries will be produced in the United States and Canada or just the United States. The wings would continue to manufactured in Belfast to save face with U.K. government
coronado wrote:

Don't forget Delta remains an absolutely major champion for the CS series. Airbus with this move pretty much locked up an ''Air Line'' that will be turning over 300-350+ aircraft in the next 5-7 years, as MD88 and MD90's and 757's and 767's ime out. Also a lot of the 717 leases are owned by Boeing, somehow Boeing may find that they will have a hard time getting Delta to extend or renew the leases past their original expiration dates which if IIRC start cycling out by 2020 or 2021.

I completely forgot about Boeing 717 leases. Boeing's antics may have just caused DL to slap "Return to Sender" stickers on those planes. Even though HA may take a few. Airbus probably can persuade Delta to send them back for great prices for more C-Series jets to replace them.
KarelXWB wrote:

Just a FYI, a CS300 test aircraft has just landed in Toulouse today.

Its makes me wonder if the world tour was Airbus' doing
If I were Airbus I would try to convince DL to do two things in particluar:
-Cancel the remaining non-contractual 739s on order. In return give them best deal possible for more A321 neos/ceos
-Not extend the leases of the 88 717s that DL got from WN and return them to Boeing (Unsure who owns the 3 aircraft DL got from Blue 1). In return give them another smoking deal for more CS100s.
 
Planetalk
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:09 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
golfradio wrote:

Everyone is a winner in this deal; BBD, Airbus, Quebecois, Canadians and Americans. Except of course Boeing. Boeing sure got shafted by the Trump shenanigans.

How do you blame Trump for something Boeing did to themselves?


I think the point is Boeing only tried and got away with this nonsense because of the current presidents predilection for nationalism. They got all excited about the chance to screw the completion, completely unjustly, and in their hysteria and backslapping didn't stop and think.

This is the trouble with the kind of short term thinking rife in board rooms like Boeing's. They would have been far better off just letting Bombardier having their very small slice of thepie. I'm glad they've got their just desserts. The C-series looks like wonderful plane and I'm glad it is now secure.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:16 pm

VSMUT wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
People! Look at the BIG picture. Airbus isn't killing any CS500. If anything, they've just got CS500 handed over on a silver platter!


Circa 2020, Airbus will have to either put a new wing on A32x or design all-new, own "MoM" aircraft, to be able to offer it's own 4000nm product. My money is on all-new wing for A32x due to its fuselage's unmatched, superior efficiency vs. 737 and to keep development cost down. With CS500 being nothing more than a simple stretch - enough for 2500nm+ range - we'll have the following:.


What you wrote is silly.

They have really given no indication they want to redo the A320. It's selling wonderfully, it's highly profitable, and their is no new competitor coming soon.

In 2020 they will still be building A320neos. The backlog goes to about 2023 or so.


The A320s wing hasn't been changed for 30 years. It is outdated, and will need to be replaced sooner or later. It is only a matter of time before the MC-21 and C919 start becoming serious competitors, and Boeing may even launch a clean-sheet 737 replacement at some point. If Airbus is to avoid suffering the same way Boeing did in the 1990s when they insisted that the 737 Classics were "good enough", then they need to move preemptively. The A340 Blade demonstrator is proof that they are already busy with the process.



All of that is true, and has been true for a long time. But while the plane is selling great, has a huge backlog, and has no new competitors on the horizon is not typically when you make a new wing.


kitplane01 wrote:
My money is on all-new wing for A32x due to its fuselage's unmatched, superior efficiency vs. 737 and to keep development cost down.



I didn't write that (mis-atribution) and I disagree with it.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:24 pm

scbriml wrote:
No, Airbus got 50.1% of the CS for nothing. If they want to increase that to 100% in a few years' time, it will cost them "fair market rate" for the rest.

True, but also BBD has a 'put' option that can compel Airbus to buy the shares "at fair market rate" whether Airbus wants them or not. Of course Airbus has control of the board and the majority of the shares so if they want "fair market rate" to be at the low end of the scale they can presumably find a way to make that happen before the 'put' option can be triggered.

rheinwaldner wrote:
The duopoly in itself has no value. From Boeings perspective a market split of 30%/70% B(Boeing)/A(Airbus) is not better than a market split of 30%/55%/15% B/A/C (Comac). I would say, packaging deals with CSeries/A320 will steal more sales from Boeing than a China marketed CSeries. Much more even.

Good point about Airbus's ability to do package deals, but IMHO the biggest fear Boeing and the rest of the Western aviation industry has is that China could destabilize the duopoly by severely undermining them on price. That would be far worse than a few market percentage points changing hands. China would answer any WTO complaint by claiming their cost to produce is incredibly low and given their opaqueness there's not much A and B could do to disprove that. So far it hasn't happened because COMAC doesn't have compelling technology. Keeping the CS out of their hands prevents them from getting compelling technology very quickly.
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DocLightning
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:33 pm

ytz wrote:
Were I a Boeing shareholder, I'd want heads to roll....

Look at where Boeing is strategically today. Doesn't look good. The day they announce the NSA is the day that Airbus announces the CS500. And they day they announce the MOM is the day they announce the 320.5 and the 322. And Airbus will spend less and bring those to market faster than Boeing.

:checkmark: I'd be furious.

*They stuffed up the 787 to the point where the program cannot make a total program profit and they will have to take a charge
*They stuffed up the 748i, as a failed product.
*The 77X seems to be destined to be another weak product in the face of the A350.
*They've jeopardized their future international military contracts in Canada, the UK, and the EU
*There is no plan to replace the 737 and compete with the CS/A320 combination

They need new upper management.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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eal46859
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:38 pm

I'm not sure I understand all the Boeing Bashing going on here. Is it true or not, that the Governments of Canada and or Northern Ireland were subsidizing the cost of this aircraft that Delta is buying? If so, is Boeing's position any different that any other US company or industry that complains that a foreign government is subsidizing a product or material and dumping it on our market, therefore subjecting that product to US tariffs? Even though Airbus may now be a part owner soon, does that change the subsidy claim issue with the DL order?
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:50 pm

WaywardMemphian wrote:
ytz wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I'm liking the CSeries more already ah ah !

Airbus stock went up 4.83% today.


Bombardier stock up 20%.


Wait till the new orders come in, and they will. I'm making a limited killing off of this like the time I bought Six Flags for 6 bucks when they exited bankruptcy after the 2008 crash.


Exactly. There are some here who keep up with the sour grapes. Saying the 100-130 seat market is dead. Nonsense.

My super bullish estimate is that they double their order book by the end of 2018. My minimum is 15% more firm orders within a year.
Last edited by ytz on Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
rigo
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:51 pm

caljn wrote:
Boeing as a poignant metaphor for the US under Trump. The world moves on...


You mean Boeing is going to make McD great again? ;)
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:58 pm

DocLightning wrote:
ytz wrote:
Were I a Boeing shareholder, I'd want heads to roll....

Look at where Boeing is strategically today. Doesn't look good. The day they announce the NSA is the day that Airbus announces the CS500. And they day they announce the MOM is the day they announce the 320.5 and the 322. And Airbus will spend less and bring those to market faster than Boeing.

:checkmark: I'd be furious.

*They stuffed up the 787 to the point where the program cannot make a total program profit and they will have to take a charge
*They stuffed up the 748i, as a failed product.
*The 77X seems to be destined to be another weak product in the face of the A350.
*They've jeopardized their future international military contracts in Canada, the UK, and the EU
*There is no plan to replace the 737 and compete with the CS/A320 combination

They need new upper management.


Boeing's stock performance has totally outstanding this year. The shareholders are not furious. The issues you list are either distant history or within normal industry uncertainty.

This C-Series partnership - while intriguing - is far from a slam dunk.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:58 pm

eal46859 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand all the Boeing Bashing going on here. Is it true or not, that the Governments of Canada and or Northern Ireland were subsidizing the cost of this aircraft that Delta is buying? If so, is Boeing's position any different that any other US company or industry that complains that a foreign government is subsidizing a product or material and dumping it on our market, therefore subjecting that product to US tariffs? Even though Airbus may now be a part owner soon, does that change the subsidy claim issue with the DL order?


When DL made the same argument that Boeing and EXIM were offering "buy 7 get 1 free" to state-owned subsidized carriers, no one helped Delta. On top, Washington State joined the subsidy party. How can Boeing claim, Delta is getting subsidized planes? Compared to those subsidies, a regional jet of a total order worth $5.6B is trivial.
All posts are just opinions.
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:11 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
ytz wrote:

The Quebec government still owns 20%. And Bombardier another 30%. How exactly do they move production just like that? That's not happening. Production for the US market will move to Mobile, exactly as stated in the Press. And the rest of the world will stay in Montreal. Down the road, I can see some of it migrating to Europe.

Post 2023 Airbus will buy out the remaining shares of the C-Series program. Airbus would then have several options.
- Subcontract BBD to continue to build the Cseries in Mirbeal
-Acquire BBD C-series related assets and put them under an Airbus Canada banner
-Move the Mirbeal final assembly line to Mobile. I think the Cseries will be produced in the United States and Canada or just the United States. The wings would continue to manufactured in Belfast to save face with U.K. government


Media is reporting that Airbus has provided guarantees for 2000 jobs to remain in Montreal till 2041:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... eries-deal

I highly doubt that Quebec would have agreed to any of this if there were not firm guarantees for those jobs. Lest we forget they owned 49% of the program yesterday morning. I would bet money that the UK government insisted on the same for Northern Ireland.

Also, why the heck would they pick up and move an existing production line? It's not like Airbus doesn't have experience running production lines around the world. Not to mention that Pratt & Whitney Canada does the engines right next door:

http://www.pwc.ca/en/about/mirabel-aerospace-centre

I also think this was a huge part of why Boeing may not have been a contender for the purchase. They saw what Boeing did to the 717. And they know what happened the last time with De Havilland Canada. A deal with Boeing would have been much tougher to get from the Quebec and Canadian and British governments.

INFINITI329 wrote:
coronado wrote:

Don't forget Delta remains an absolutely major champion for the CS series. Airbus with this move pretty much locked up an ''Air Line'' that will be turning over 300-350+ aircraft in the next 5-7 years, as MD88 and MD90's and 757's and 767's ime out. Also a lot of the 717 leases are owned by Boeing, somehow Boeing may find that they will have a hard time getting Delta to extend or renew the leases past their original expiration dates which if IIRC start cycling out by 2020 or 2021.

I completely forgot about Boeing 717 leases. Boeing's antics may have just caused DL to slap "Return to Sender" stickers on those planes. Even though HA may take a few. Airbus probably can persuade Delta to send them back for great prices for more C-Series jets to replace them.
KarelXWB wrote:

Just a FYI, a CS300 test aircraft has just landed in Toulouse today.

Its makes me wonder if the world tour was Airbus' doing
If I were Airbus I would try to convince DL to do two things in particluar:
-Cancel the remaining non-contractual 739s on order. In return give them best deal possible for more A321 neos/ceos
-Not extend the leases of the 88 717s that DL got from WN and return them to Boeing (Unsure who owns the 3 aircraft DL got from Blue 1). In return give them another smoking deal for more CS100s.


DL is virtually guaranteed to exercise every option they have on the sweet deal they got. If they really paid $20 million, the options they have just got a ton more attractive. Probably upsize as many they can to CS300s. And then place a follow on order. Mark my words, DL will have over 200 CSeries in their fleet by the end of the next decade.

Every current CSeries customer is sitting on options worth a lot more today.
Last edited by ytz on Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:16 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
All of that is true, and has been true for a long time. But while the plane is selling great, has a huge backlog, and has no new competitors on the horizon is not typically when you make a new wing.


"Has no new competitors on the horizon":

I count 2 or 3 direct clean sheet competitors on the horizon: MC-21, C919 and possibly the 797/mom

"is not typically when you make a new wing":

What is your precedent for this statement? Boeing and the 737 Classic rewinging that didn't come until they lost United Airlines? Boeing and the 767 replacement that didn't come until 20 years after the A330 killed it? :roll: :lol:

Rewing programs are historically rare and few have been done, and practically all by Boeing. They all in one way or another resulted in a mess because Boeing wasn't proactive enough.
 
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keesje
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:27 pm

VeroVenia entered an identity crisis. The blogger famous for being selectively critical (everything Airbus), deleting everyone not agreeing (rubbish, it's my blog), and endless, selective self referencing, is now trying to rewrite history claiming he supported such aquisition all along. :rotfl:

https://verovenia.wordpress.com

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Chemist
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:27 pm

As a US citizen, this is the sort of thing I expect when head-in-the-sand protectionists think they can tariff everybody to "keep US jobs". The market is efficient and all you do by being a protectionist is hurt yourself in the long run. This case is a perfect example of that.
While it might hurt the US economy (and Boeing particularly), I am in favor of this outcome, because the market should win and the artificialities are not going to work.

I still wonder why BBD dumping the CSeries =not ok when Boeing was totally dumping the 787. Somehow one is ok and the other is not.

You can expect similar dire outcomes when we get rid of NAFTA. This set of economic disasters for the US is all on the current administration and the voters who voted those clowns in.
 
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par13del
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:28 pm

....ahh expose a OEM doing something illegal in your country???
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:31 pm

VSMUT wrote:
"Has no new competitors on the horizon":

I count 2 or 3 direct clean sheet competitors on the horizon: . ..797/mom


You gotta be kidding me....
 
douwd20
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:31 pm

DocLightning wrote:
ytz wrote:
Were I a Boeing shareholder, I'd want heads to roll....

Look at where Boeing is strategically today. Doesn't look good. The day they announce the NSA is the day that Airbus announces the CS500. And they day they announce the MOM is the day they announce the 320.5 and the 322. And Airbus will spend less and bring those to market faster than Boeing.

:checkmark: I'd be furious.

*They stuffed up the 787 to the point where the program cannot make a total program profit and they will have to take a charge
*They stuffed up the 748i, as a failed product.
*The 77X seems to be destined to be another weak product in the face of the A350.
*They've jeopardized their future international military contracts in Canada, the UK, and the EU
*There is no plan to replace the 737 and compete with the CS/A320 combination

They need new upper management.


I guess you haven't been following Boeing's stock. Record high. Management is doing a fantastic job. The order backlog is huge.
 
godsbeloved
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:31 pm

eal46859 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand all the Boeing Bashing going on here. Is it true or not, that the Governments of Canada and or Northern Ireland were subsidizing the cost of this aircraft that Delta is buying? If so, is Boeing's position any different that any other US company or industry that complains that a foreign government is subsidizing a product or material and dumping it on our market, therefore subjecting that product to US tariffs? Even though Airbus may now be a part owner soon, does that change the subsidy claim issue with the DL order?


No other nation has a big enough air force or space administration they can use to subsidize aviation industry, so they have to do it another way. Nor do they offer tax breaks for the production of airplane wings.

In Europe some nations are stupid enough to buy Boeing airplanes for their nation leaders, including my home country, The Netherlands; USA would not even consider A380 as AF1. Meanwhile in Europe many nations call for fair competition , like in Holland, where Dutch industry is a major (technology) supplier for Airbus, but they ordered a BBJ. They did not even consider the A319!

So America first in the USA is fine with me. But why should the world accept Boeing being favoured (subsidized) and dumping their 787's at their home carriers at a loss, but not stand up for their own aviation companies? Boeings act is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. What exactly is unclear?
 
Samrnpage
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:33 pm

eal46859 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand all the Boeing Bashing going on here. Is it true or not, that the Governments of Canada and or Northern Ireland were subsidizing the cost of this aircraft that Delta is buying? If so, is Boeing's position any different that any other US company or industry that complains that a foreign government is subsidizing a product or material and dumping it on our market, therefore subjecting that product to US tariffs? Even though Airbus may now be a part owner soon, does that change the subsidy claim issue with the DL order?


If you cannot understand it then maybe you have some glasses on that are tinted.

Boeing have always had subsidiaries, tax benefits and they have also dumped prices to beat off competition (see the united 737-700 deal). So much so that IF any other plane manufacturer took it further they would have a massive case against Boeing. Now this is the same at Airbus, BBD, Embrear and most aircraft manufacturers because they bring so many jobs to countries as well as countable benefits to many people its almost a "win-lose" type deal to keep these businesses afloat. BBD has an amazing aircraft in the Cseries but confidence in BBD surviving has put so many airlines off committing to the Cseries. Because of this they gave Delta an insane deal to get a big order from a big airline on the books to hopefully prove to other airlines "look Delta has taken the plunge we are good".


Boeing then, realizing that the A320NEO series is gaining market share, saw the CSeries as a threat and decided to try and bankrupt them by making the case that they unfairly dumped prices in the US market - which BBD did an nobody denies that - and of course won the judgement imposing a tariff of 220% (correct me if I am wrong). Now not that this isnt legal and what BBD did wasnt illegal doesnt matter. It smarted and gave boeing a horrific "bully" and hypocritical persona as they themselves are more subsidised by the government than BBD ever have been. Pot kettle black. This then destroyed confidence by any airline to buy the Cseries and they were forced to sell it up or potentially go bankrupt trying to make it work. BBD then turned to who else but Airbus. Airbus gets the Cseries for nothing, if it works out they can buy the whole lot. Boeing now has completely fucked this market up. Airbus has cards and tricks and whatever Boeing now do - Airbus can quickly and cheaply react with a better easier product.

If I was anyone who is affected by Boeings management - Id too would want better people in charge going forward before Airbus completely takes over.
 
racercoup
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:34 pm

Moet folks here are so busy bashing Boeing they forget one thing. - Bombardier's dumping hurts fair competition between airlines. The Canadian governments essentially helped Delta buy jets at a ridiculously low cost thereby giving Delta an unfair cost advantage that will be used against their competitors. Boeing was right to go after Bombardier.
 
queb
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:46 pm

ytz wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
ytz wrote:

The Quebec government still owns 20%. And Bombardier another 30%. How exactly do they move production just like that? That's not happening. Production for the US market will move to Mobile, exactly as stated in the Press. And the rest of the world will stay in Montreal. Down the road, I can see some of it migrating to Europe.

Post 2023 Airbus will buy out the remaining shares of the C-Series program. Airbus would then have several options.
- Subcontract BBD to continue to build the Cseries in Mirbeal
-Acquire BBD C-series related assets and put them under an Airbus Canada banner
-Move the Mirbeal final assembly line to Mobile. I think the Cseries will be produced in the United States and Canada or just the United States. The wings would continue to manufactured in Belfast to save face with U.K. government


Media is reporting that Airbus has provided guarantees for 2000 jobs to remain in Montreal till 2041:


Here the official statement from the governement of Québec (in french):

http://www.fil-information.gouv.qc.ca/P ... 01&lang=en

Le partenariat annoncé aujourd'hui fait du Québec le plus grand pôle de développement d'Airbus hors du continent européen. Le partenariat prévoit également le prolongement de 5 ans, soit jusqu'en 2041, de l'entente de continuité qui assure l'avenir des 2000 emplois à l'usine de Mirabel, en plus de maintenir le siège social de la société en commandite à Montréal.


Translation:
The partnership announced today makes Quebec the largest development center of Airbus outside the European continent. The partnership also provides a 5-year extension of the continuity agreement, which will ensure the future of the 2000 jobs at the Mirabel plant, until 2041, in addition to maintaining the headquarters of the Cseries partnership in Montreal.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:47 pm

I have a few questions regarding this and Boeing.

1) Is this not preferable to the technology transfer that would happen if BBD found a Chinese suitor? Boeing understands and can deal with a duopoly just fine.

2) Airbus has played it's hand. Does this not free up Boeing for it's next decision? I mean, I won't claim that this is GOOD for Boeing, but it does remove some of the present uncertainty. Presumably Airbus is not going to turn around and do a major overhaul of the A320 series right now, and the C-series won't eat into the majority of the 737 until a -500 is released. Boeing can now move forward with the 797 with greater confidence, no?
 
WIederling
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:48 pm

incitatus wrote:
If Boeing ups the Airbus deal by putting several billion USD on the table, it is in BBD's best interest to take it.


No check is big enough for having your throat cut.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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par13del
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:51 pm

DocLightning wrote:

:checkmark: I'd be furious.

*They stuffed up the 787 to the point where the program cannot make a total program profit and they will have to take a charge
*They stuffed up the 748i, as a failed product.
*The 77X seems to be destined to be another weak product in the face of the A350.
*They've jeopardized their future international military contracts in Canada, the UK, and the EU
*There is no plan to replace the 737 and compete with the CS/A320 combination

They need new upper management.[/quote]
So what will new management do about the items above?
Abandon the 787 program and do something else?
They stuffed up the 748-i for the 787, difference is more folks bought the 787
Abandon the 777X and do something else, hopefully they could convince the Feds to give them RLI
Future military contracts with what products, they essentially are selling decades old Chinooks, Apaches, as for the a/c which fighters have Europe purchased from Boeing in recent memory?
The NSA was on the table but once Airbus went NEO they were mandated by their customers to respond quickly versus waiting for the new frame. At least they were given credit for paying attention to their customers.

New management can be bought in under what premise, since the damage goes back decades, only immediate thing would be a major production snafu.
Contrary to popular belief, they have been shut out of major military programs for decades - at least manned a/c - which is what A.Net views, missiles, satellites make money out of sight. The bad products means their market share will decline, as a/c are decade long purchases, and all suppliers sell to both OEM's any killer product they come up with will be responded within 5 years or less so.....expect the situation to remain the same for the foreseeable future.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:53 pm

eal46859 wrote:
I'm not sure I understand all the Boeing Bashing going on here. Is it true or not, that the Governments of Canada and or Northern Ireland were subsidizing the cost of this aircraft that Delta is buying? If so, is Boeing's position any different that any other US company or industry that complains that a foreign government is subsidizing a product or material and dumping it on our market, therefore subjecting that product to US tariffs? Even though Airbus may now be a part owner soon, does that change the subsidy claim issue with the DL order?


Let us see, the 787 is subsidised, if not in the USA, than at least in Japan the wing production. Furthermore the 787 program runs as it is at a 27 billion USD production loss. Hundreds of planes sold below cost.
The 777-8/9 is subsidised by the Washington state to keep production in the state.
Living in a glasshouse, you should not throw stones.
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:55 pm

racercoup wrote:
Moet folks here are so busy bashing Boeing they forget one thing. - Bombardier's dumping hurts fair competition between airlines. The Canadian governments essentially helped Delta buy jets at a ridiculously low cost thereby giving Delta an unfair cost advantage that will be used against their competitors. Boeing was right to go after Bombardier.



And Boeing's Black Friday sale on end of line 737NGs for United (70% off) did wonders for fair competition between airlines? Which other airlines got that deal from Boeing? How convenient that the only way to get that kind of discount was to seriously consider the CSeries.
Last edited by ytz on Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:55 pm

mat66 wrote:
I made to page 10 now, but just want to way in on that tariff question. Maybe it's already mentioned.

The trade deal between the US and EU doesn't allow the kind of tariffs that were put on the C-Series recently. Why there isn't a similar deal between Canada and the US, I don't know.
Why do you think Boeing went to the toothless WTO instead and for decades no less? The tariff thing took 6 months.

And now it's back to page 10 of this incredible good thread for me.


Currently there is no trade deal between the US and EU that I'm aware about. The GATT is what we have.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:57 pm

Chemist wrote:
I still wonder why BBD dumping the CSeries =not ok when Boeing was totally dumping the 787. Somehow one is ok and the other is not.

Just remember when you go to court, you don't necessarily get JUSTICE, what you actually get is LAW. The two things are not the same.
I wish we had @washingtonflyer here to elaborate, but today he seems awfully.... silent.

"Dumping" seems to be defined as the selling of imported goods below a fair price, AND when there is a locally made alternative.
BBD were guilty of dumping because they sold their goods to a US carrier for less than cost (allegedly),
............ AND there was a locally made alternative(?) that suffered as a consequence (allegedly)

Boeing would only be guilty if they sold their 787 at less than cost,......in FRANCE.
Nowhere else.
For all the talk of Airbus being European, AFAIK the A350 production line is at Toulouse, France. (correct me if I'm wrong)
Boeing can dump their subsidised 787s anywhere else they like, and it will not be "dumping" as defined by WTO

Now please don't shoot the messenger here, because quite frankly I don't see the logic of it myself. It absolutely sucks! But that's LAW for you.

If there is an international trade lawyer out there who can put me straight on this, I'd love to hear from them.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:05 pm

WIederling wrote:
incitatus wrote:
If Boeing ups the Airbus deal by putting several billion USD on the table, it is in BBD's best interest to take it.


No check is big enough for having your throat cut.


Boeing's word isn't worth the paper it's written on. See the 717. And previous Canadian experience with De Havilland Canada. If Boeing was announced as the buyer, the review by Quebec and Canadian governments would have been absolutely intense. There was no way Quebec was agreeing to any deal which didn't protect those jobs. And Boeing didn't want to sell the CSeries. They wanted to kill it. As you said, there's no price high enough for suicide.
 
WIederling
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:05 pm

32andBelow wrote:
WIederling wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
It's also an airbus competitor. Why are you guys so sure AB isn't just going to shelve it.


There is no "Boeing" in their name :-)
( in hindsight would Boeing still judge recourse-less cancellation of the 717 as a good idea? )

I dunno what was the big advantage of the 717 over the 737-7?


717 vs 737-600 6t / 20% difference in OEW and obvious significantly less range..
more for the -700 though that one has clearly higher capacity.
C-series mentions the 717-200 as direct competitor.

717 seems to have moved more frames at its time than the comparable 737-600 NG
Murphy is an optimist
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:09 pm

racercoup wrote:
Moet folks here are so busy bashing Boeing they forget one thing. - Bombardier's dumping hurts fair competition between airlines. The Canadian governments essentially helped Delta buy jets at a ridiculously low cost thereby giving Delta an unfair cost advantage that will be used against their competitors. Boeing was right to go after Bombardier.

And round-and-round we go, again.
You say Bombardier's dumping hurts fair competition between airlines
Boeings dumping......does that somehow not hurt competition between airlines too?
Delta gain in one case; United gain in the other. That is just business.
Cutting BBD out of the loop results in exactly the scenario you complain of; it helps one airline against another. Your concept of fair leaves me baffled.

The complaint against BBD is simply a matter of LAW; they are not a US company, and thus under the protectionist legal framework that currently exists they are not allowed to dump aircraft. But Boeing can carry on. And on. And on. And you seem ok with that notion.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:10 pm

racercoup wrote:
Moet folks here are so busy bashing Boeing they forget one thing. - Bombardier's dumping hurts fair competition between airlines. The Canadian governments essentially helped Delta buy jets at a ridiculously low cost thereby giving Delta an unfair cost advantage that will be used against their competitors. Boeing was right to go after Bombardier.

ytz wrote:
And Boeing's Black Friday sale on end of line 737NGs for United (70% off) did wonders for fair competition between airlines? Which other airlines got that deal from Boeing? How convenient that the only way to get that kind of discount was to seriously consider the CSeries.

:checkmark:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:16 pm

douwd20 wrote:

I guess you haven't been following Boeing's stock.


You mean like being down on a day that markets hit a record high, while Bombardier close up 15% and Airbus stock u nearly 5%. The market clearly knows the implications of this deal. Remember, past results are not a guarantee of future performance.

Luckily for Boeing they are well diversified.
 
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par13del
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:21 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
And round-and-round we go, again.
You say Bombardier's dumping hurts fair competition between airlines
Boeings dumping......does that somehow not hurt competition between airlines too?
Delta gain in one case; United gain in the other. That is just business.
Cutting BBD out of the loop results in exactly the scenario you complain of; it helps one airline against another. Your concept of fair leaves me baffled.

The complaint against BBD is simply a matter of LAW; they are not a US company, and thus under the protectionist legal framework that currently exists they are not allowed to dump aircraft. But Boeing can carry on. And on. And on. And you seem ok with that notion.

So who has bought a dumping case against Boeing in Europe, Canada, Russia, the ME, etc etc etc and lost?
Based on the number of anti-Boeing folks the world over getting evidence to get Boeing convicted should be easy...Boeing ceased being the largest OEM decades ago so maybe that is how folks have reacted to Boeing since they could not get a conviction in court?
 
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:22 pm

ytz wrote:
There's no price high enough for suicide.


That's good advice right there
 
incitatus
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:31 pm

Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier and Embraer live under the same trade rules. Considering those rules, all of them are free to complain when they think a competitor is getting an unfair subsidy advantage. And have done so fairly frequently in the past. NONE of these four are wall flowers. We all know it.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:32 pm

PanAm788 wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
PanAm788 wrote:
Lots of smart people have given their opinion but nonetheless here's mine.


Loser: Embraer
- Embraer must be super pissed that not only did the production costs of their biggest competitor get totally slashed overnight


No. The plane is being built by the same people using the same processes with the same suppliers.

There is a theoretical hope that Airbus can improve the process/supply-chain with their knowledge, but no one knows for sure and it will very likely take years.


I was being a bit facetious but yes you are right nothing has actually changed overnight. What I was getting at was 1) Airbus should be able to get costs down over time and will provide production stability and 2) a $5 cost is much more severe to someone that has $10 (BBD) than to someone who has $1,000 (Airbus), which I think is a decent analogy for the situation.

Cost cuts should be quick. Airbus will just pull in some orders early, as allowed per contract. If the order was every six months, they'll pull in two. If quarterly, a month. Or whatever timeframe needed for the quantities required. I estimate Airbus pays 20% to 30% less for:
Aluminum
Rivets
Windows
Tires
Wheels
Wire
Connectors (wire and fluid)
Carpet (flight certified)

They'll get a lesser discount on flight fittings, engines, pressure transducers, pitot tubes, bearings, and the other common parts that make up an aircraft.

They'll save more than the cost of Mobile.

Bombardier just lost these economies of scale for their business jets.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
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kitplane01
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:35 pm

VSMUT wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
All of that is true, and has been true for a long time. But while the plane is selling great, has a huge backlog, and has no new competitors on the horizon is not typically when you make a new wing.


"Has no new competitors on the horizon":

I count 2 or 3 direct clean sheet competitors on the horizon: MC-21, C919 and possibly the 797/mom


No, you cannot.

The MC-21 is not a competitor because it's very unlikely to sell a significant number of planes. It has 205 orders after selling for 10 years, all but 16 l Russian. It's taken 11 years from "start of initial design" to "flying the first prototype".

The C919 has taken 8 years to go from program launch to flying the prototype. It has 119 firm orders (and a large amount of options) after selling for 7 years, almost all Chinese. It's WAY off schedule (even more than normal for an airline program).

No one knows what the 797 will look like, or when it will happen, but it's unlikely to be a 737 replacement (maybe, no one knows).

If you're Airbus, the MC-21 is not a threat. The C919 might be a threat maybe. The 797 is likely in a different market if it happens at all.

For comparison, the C-series was 5 years from program launch to first flight. It has 360 firm orders (and 232 options) after selling for 8 years, and is not clearly a success.
 
Cruiser
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:48 pm

Anyone else laughing at the official Boeing statements that are being tweeted? They are ridiculous...
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:48 pm

In amongst all the prognosticating about who is affected by this and how between Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier, Embraer, Mitsubishi, COMAC, Sukhkoi, Irkut and others, I suspect the ones most upset about being left out of the party are...

Netherlands Aircraft Company, home of the once and future king of large regional/small mainline aircraft, the Fokker 130, of only someone would invest in it...

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:28 am

racercoup wrote:
Moet folks here are so busy bashing Boeing they forget one thing. - Bombardier's dumping hurts fair competition between airlines. The Canadian governments essentially helped Delta buy jets at a ridiculously low cost thereby giving Delta an unfair cost advantage that will be used against their competitors. Boeing was right to go after Bombardier.


I hope you're joking.

Is Boeing guilt free? They deliberately trashed BBD's chances with UA by slashing prices by 70 percent on 737's and that's more shameful coming from a company that isn't struggling to get a foothold but is rather printing money and wants to kill a competitor to keep it that way. Fair competition means that BBD has a an actual chance at success in selling to airlines, unless you're referring to the beyond hypocritical US perspective that shuts out competition to keep it "fair" for US companies at the expense of anyone else.
 
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:33 am

Cruiser wrote:
Anyone else laughing at the official Boeing statements that are being tweeted? They are ridiculous...


I actually had to check if they got hacked or if I was looking at a fake account. I then realized that Boeing was actually tweeting this shit!
 
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:34 am

Image
 
kabq737
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:38 am

Jetport wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
If the Cseries is able to take advantage of the massive Airbus support structure and product familiarity around the world it could be very very good. I love Boeing’s aircraft however, I think they are run fairly poorly right now and I think this wake up call needed to be made.


Boeing run poorly right now?? What are you smoking?? Check out their stock price, if only all public companies were so poorly run. As one analyst said; "Boing is a cash flow machine". I wish I had bought far more Boeing stock than I did last year. BA is the best performing stock in the Dow for the past year. I guess you are smarter than wall street.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/st ... tory_quote

I did not provide a good explanation of what I was talking about and that is 100% my bad. I apologize. I was referring to the design departments which in my OPINION could be run better. I agree 100% that Boeing is run very well financially. I apologize for the misunderstanding as it is my fault.
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bigjku
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:38 am

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
racercoup wrote:
Moet folks here are so busy bashing Boeing they forget one thing. - Bombardier's dumping hurts fair competition between airlines. The Canadian governments essentially helped Delta buy jets at a ridiculously low cost thereby giving Delta an unfair cost advantage that will be used against their competitors. Boeing was right to go after Bombardier.


I hope you're joking.

Is Boeing guilt free? They deliberately trashed BBD's chances with UA by slashing prices by 70 percent on 737's and that's more shameful coming from a company that isn't struggling to get a foothold but is rather printing money and wants to kill a competitor to keep it that way. Fair competition means that BBD has a an actual chance at success in selling to airlines, unless you're referring to the beyond hypocritical US perspective that shuts out competition to keep it "fair" for US companies at the expense of anyone else.


Airbus did the exact same stuff prior to buying it. Both Airbus and Boeing can afford to cut prices on narrowbodies. They are highly efficient at producing them.
 
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Ab345
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:39 am

I haven't seen anyone point this out, and in my opinion is an important factor of the "the CS is not selling" argument

Enders agreed, saying that “quite a few potential CSeries customers” — and U.S. airlines in particular, including Airbus customer JetBlue — have been very impressed with the CSeries jet. They have held back from committing to it because its future as a business was in doubt.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... as-fought/
 
kabq737
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:42 am

Jetport wrote:
kabq737 wrote:
If the Cseries is able to take advantage of the massive Airbus support structure and product familiarity around the world it could be very very good. I love Boeing’s aircraft however, I think they are run fairly poorly right now and I think this wake up call needed to be made.


Boeing run poorly right now?? What are you smoking?? Check out their stock price, if only all public companies were so poorly run. As one analyst said; "Boing is a cash flow machine". I wish I had bought far more Boeing stock than I did last year. BA is the best performing stock in the Dow for the past year. I guess you are smarter than wall street.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/st ... tory_quote

I did not provide a good explanation of what I was talking about and that is 100% my bad. I apologize. I was referring to the design departments which in my OPINION could be run better. I agree 100% that Boeing is run very well financially. I apologize for the misunderstanding as it is my fault.
Been on: 320, 321, 333, 733, 73G, 738, 739, 744, 752, 763, 764, 772, 789, C208, CR7, CR9, BE20, MD83, MD88, MD90, E70, E75, E90, TRIM
Flown: SEEKER, C150M C172N, C172R, C172S, C182RG, DA40, PA-46
 
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Revelation
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:04 am

FoxtrotSierra wrote:
racercoup wrote:
Moet folks here are so busy bashing Boeing they forget one thing. - Bombardier's dumping hurts fair competition between airlines. The Canadian governments essentially helped Delta buy jets at a ridiculously low cost thereby giving Delta an unfair cost advantage that will be used against their competitors. Boeing was right to go after Bombardier.


I hope you're joking.

Is Boeing guilt free? They deliberately trashed BBD's chances with UA by slashing prices by 70 percent on 737's and that's more shameful coming from a company that isn't struggling to get a foothold but is rather printing money and wants to kill a competitor to keep it that way. Fair competition means that BBD has a an actual chance at success in selling to airlines, unless you're referring to the beyond hypocritical US perspective that shuts out competition to keep it "fair" for US companies at the expense of anyone else.

Speaking of "fair competition" and "anyone else", Airbus launched the A320NEO in order to use its might to crush the C Series (as they already had the 737 on the run), and its reward is getting half of the program for 1 Canadian dollar! As an added bonus, they get to blame Boeing for it all! :biggrin:
Last edited by Revelation on Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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