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Revelation
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:04 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
The most interesting thing is what Bombardier's endgame in all of this? The CSeries under the Bombardier is history. Are they going to sell off the CRJ/Q400 for pocket change? I guess BBD can go back to its business jet roots but that market also seems smaller than in past decades.

Bombardier and Embraer were the only western companies that could potentially challenge Boeing/Airbus, but Bombardier is out and Embraer will most likely fold into Boeing eventually. I guess only Russia/China will be able to save the day, but that is decades away.
That's the only thing I don't get about this whole deal. What does BBD get out of it?

The hope that in 2023 the "fair market value" of 31% of CSALP is a significant amount of money. Before this deal, 62% of CSALP was not.

Note that they are still committed to pumping in a lot of money to the program over the next few years.

All this after putting $5B into the program.

It's a terrible deal for BBD, but it was still better than any other option they had.
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FoxtrotSierra
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:06 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
Ooooh, this interesting. Apparently, some journalists received an email from airbus containing material abot the deal, and among the files an image for 320&cs100 created back in 9/8/2017 ( Not sure if thats Aug or Sep) .. It seems Boeing was the one forced into a corner, and not the other way around!

Image

https://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/920690533835661312


Uh, how was Boeing forced into a corner? :confused:
 
afgeneral
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:10 pm

sadiqutp wrote:
Ooooh, this interesting. Apparently, some journalists received an email from airbus containing material abot the deal, and among the files an image for 320&cs100 created back in 9/8/2017 ( Not sure if thats Aug or Sep) .. It seems Boeing was the one forced into a corner, and not the other way around!

Image

https://twitter.com/FG_STrim/status/920690533835661312


there were no leaks regarding the deal and not even stock analysts or insiders knew about it

if Boeing knew about it than they are clearly liable for some dirty spying feat which warrants an investigation in itself
 
VSMUT
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:13 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
And while the C919 outlook is better, it's prospect is mainly limited to China as Comac has no clear path towards FAA certification.


It is getting EASA certification. You of all people should know that an EASA certification opens just as many doors as an FAA certification does.
 
aaexecplat
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:21 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:

People will lobby for job creation in Alabama. Trump Administration may find that more important than Boeings wishes.


Donald Trump is a Boeing shareholder. If anything, that would be motivation enough. Money is king for Mr.Trump.


https://mobile.twitter.com/realdonaldtr ... 05?lang=en

[email protected] stock went way down because of 787- so I just bought stock in @Boeing- great company!


Again...the man and his administration are not rational. They are all about loyalty, deference and opportunity. You don't defer and show loyalty, you will be erased even if it costs them money when it provides a good opportunity. The electorate is in lockstep. Look how many people voted Trump to kill Obamacare (and now risk losing the only coverage they had). Or how many people voted Trump to build "the Wall" that didn't realize or care that it would impact their access to water at the border. The average voter here in the US loves a simple warcry but doesn't always understand what it means to them in the long run. That's why he can confidently lie into the camera with a great soundbite to bolster the base only to sell them out a few days later.

The question we should be asking is if he believes that a trade war will hurt Europe and by extension AB/BBD. If the answer is yes and the personal motivation just right by providing an opportunity,his admin won't care about the figurative casualties in that trade war. To them, it is the cost of doing business.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:27 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
Donald Trump is a Boeing shareholder. If anything, that would be motivation enough. Money is king for Mr.Trump.


https://mobile.twitter.com/realdonaldtr ... 05?lang=en

[email protected] stock went way down because of 787- so I just bought stock in @Boeing- great company!


He also wanted to create more jobs to make America great again :duck:
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c933103
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:28 pm

question: in the proposed C Series Aircraft Limited, will it only include manufacturing and marketing, or will design things being included too? How much design materials will be transferred to Airbus?
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:32 pm

One thing I've observed about the current US administration is that when it is clear that it has done something that leads to a bad outcome (like backing Boeing in a trade war) they don't step back and re-think, they double down and plow forward. That's how they deal with mistakes.

Many here keep asking "won't the administration do (some rational thing)?" and the answer is NO they will not.
Last edited by Revelation on Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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douwd20
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:32 pm

golfradio wrote:
Karma. As Sun Tzu said, "Never back an enemy into a corner". Now Boeing's nightmare is just beginning.

Airbus buys itself breathing room by allowing C-Series to carry on with the 100-150 and potentially an A320 replacement in the form of a CS-500. While Airbus itself focuses on a response to a potential Boeing MoM initiative.

A great win for Airbus and a good out for BBD.


They get a money-losing program for free. Sounds great to me too. :o

Boeing says Bombardier CSeries jets may face hefty duties despite Airbus deal
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/18/boeing-says-bombardier-cseries-jets-may-face-hefty-duties-despite-airbus-deal.html

"Any duties finally levied against the CSeries... will have to be paid on any imported CSeries airplane or part, or it will not be permitted into the country," said Michael Luttig, Boeing's (NYSE:BA) general counsel.
Last edited by douwd20 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:39 pm

ckfred wrote:
I hate to throw cold water on everyone, but this isn't going to hurt Boeing that much. The days of having a fleet from solely of Airbus or Boeing aircraft are gone. The aircraft that an airline orders will be based on price, performance, and delivery dates.

Many BBD and EMB customers have single sourced fleets. Only if an airline required aircraft above and below the 140 seat mark, they had buy from more than one vendor. But with this deal this barrier sooner or later will fail...

incitatus wrote:
Airbus is getting a steal. C-series at this point is worth much more than what Airbus offered. Airbus is taking BBD and Quebec for a ride.

Thanks to Boeing the CSeries indeed had hardly any value anymore. At least this Boeing accomplished by their rush into the courthouses.
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Jayafe
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:42 pm

douwd20 wrote:
They get a money-losing program for free. Sounds great to me too. :o

Boeing says Bombardier CSeries jets may face hefty duties despite Airbus deal
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/18/boeing-says-bombardier-cseries-jets-may-face-hefty-duties-despite-airbus-deal.html


So money losing that Boeing moved hell and heaven to stop it.

Yes, Boeing had to decide in the early morning between 2 options: to say "D'ogh we fuck** it up" or to say that. Smart move?
 
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keesje
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:45 pm

douwd20 wrote:
golfradio wrote:
Karma. As Sun Tzu said, "Never back an enemy into a corner". Now Boeing's nightmare is just beginning.

Airbus buys itself breathing room by allowing C-Series to carry on with the 100-150 and potentially an A320 replacement in the form of a CS-500. While Airbus itself focuses on a response to a potential Boeing MoM initiative.

A great win for Airbus and a good out for BBD.


They get a money-losing program for free. Sounds great to me too. :o

Boeing says Bombardier CSeries jets may face hefty duties despite Airbus deal
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/18/boeing-says-bombardier-cseries-jets-may-face-hefty-duties-despite-airbus-deal.html


In that case, Boeing has nothing to worry about and can proceed with it's current successful strategy!
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
douwd20
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:52 pm

Jayafe wrote:
douwd20 wrote:
They get a money-losing program for free. Sounds great to me too. :o

Boeing says Bombardier CSeries jets may face hefty duties despite Airbus deal
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/18/boeing-says-bombardier-cseries-jets-may-face-hefty-duties-despite-airbus-deal.html


So money losing that Boeing moved hell and heaven to stop it.

Yes, Boeing had to decide in the early morning between 2 options: to say "D'ogh we fuck** it up" or to say that. Smart move?


"Move heaven and hell to stop it?" Asking the government to investigate is hardly "moving heaven and hell". And surprise the US government agreed. Moving heaven and hell is what the Canadian and European governments have done to make their needy children a success in a very mean world.
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:55 pm

douwd20 wrote:
"Move heaven and hell to stop it?" Asking the government to investigate is hardly "moving heaven and hell". And surprise the US government agreed. Moving heaven and hell is what the Canadian and European governments have done to make their needy children a success in a very mean world.


Lobbying and pushing political influences to get a rigged verdict is a big move. And has been a massive strategic mistake.

Oh, the US, European childish toddlers, indeed...
 
aaexecplat
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:03 pm

douwd20 wrote:
Jayafe wrote:
douwd20 wrote:
They get a money-losing program for free. Sounds great to me too. :o

Boeing says Bombardier CSeries jets may face hefty duties despite Airbus deal
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/18/boeing-says-bombardier-cseries-jets-may-face-hefty-duties-despite-airbus-deal.html


So money losing that Boeing moved hell and heaven to stop it.

Yes, Boeing had to decide in the early morning between 2 options: to say "D'ogh we fuck** it up" or to say that. Smart move?


"Move heaven and hell to stop it?" Asking the government to investigate is hardly "moving heaven and hell". And surprise the US government agreed. Moving heaven and hell is what the Canadian and European governments have done to make their needy children a success in a very mean world.


Lol. You know that is not how any of this works. There were backchannel conversations (and likely promises). The government doesn't do this entirely free of charge....but once things are agreed on, the government does Boeing's bidding like it is their own, so yes, major move by Boeing.
 
Nean1
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:31 pm

rheinlaender wrote:
danj555 wrote:
How will Delta not have to pay tariffs now? The 220% tariff is on the product, not the manufacturer.

By producing the Delta Aircraft in Mobile, AL and importing the parts from their respective manufacturing plant (i.e. Northern Ireland) into the US or not exporting them to Canada in the first place.
Then starting a trade war against the european union might be less winable then against canada from an US point of view.


It seems rather naive that with the CS final assembly moving to Alabama, BBD can escape completely unharmed from the imposed tariffs. Let's see:
- The (dumping) selling price remained unchanged;
- Subsidies offered by Canada / Quebec / UK remain unchanged (unpaid);
- The argument that the CSeries line does not rival the 737-700 (still in production) seems even more fanciful.
- The UK continues to follow the EU divorce course.

My bet is that there will be some taxation, albeit more modest.
 
afgeneral
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:52 pm

Nean1 wrote:
rheinlaender wrote:
danj555 wrote:
How will Delta not have to pay tariffs now? The 220% tariff is on the product, not the manufacturer.

By producing the Delta Aircraft in Mobile, AL and importing the parts from their respective manufacturing plant (i.e. Northern Ireland) into the US or not exporting them to Canada in the first place.
Then starting a trade war against the european union might be less winable then against canada from an US point of view.


It seems rather naive that with the CS final assembly moving to Alabama, BBD can escape completely unharmed from the imposed tariffs. Let's see:
- The (dumping) selling price remained unchanged;
- Subsidies offered by Canada / Quebec / UK remain unchanged (unpaid);
- The argument that the CSeries line does not rival the 737-700 (still in production) seems even more fanciful.
- The UK continues to follow the EU divorce course.

My bet is that there will be some taxation, albeit more modest.


well I'll have a go at this

- The (dumping) selling price remained unchanged;

as highlighted on numerous occasions US built (assembled) products cannot be deemed as to be dumping, if they somehow pull something like this off then all previous and future aggressive discounts given by Boeing in the US domestic market will also be subject to import tariffs for parts sourced internationally

- Subsidies offered by Canada / Quebec / UK remain unchanged (unpaid);

Why unpaid? They are paid. Also, they no longer matter as the C Series carve out from BBD is essentially a reset for the financing of the program.

- The argument that the CSeries line does not rival the 737-700 (still in production) seems even more fanciful.

The argument is actually strenghtened. Since 737 competes with the 320 series Airbus would not be insane to purchase a competing aircraft. It clearly shows that it is a complementary product with little overlap. Airbus' involvement proves that.
 
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speedbored
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:01 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
The most interesting thing is what Bombardier's endgame in all of this? The CSeries under the Bombardier is history. Are they going to sell off the CRJ/Q400 for pocket change? I guess BBD can go back to its business jet roots but that market also seems smaller than in past decades.

Bombardier and Embraer were the only western companies that could potentially challenge Boeing/Airbus, but Bombardier is out and Embraer will most likely fold into Boeing eventually. I guess only Russia/China will be able to save the day, but that is decades away.
That's the only thing I don't get about this whole deal. What does BBD get out of it?

a) they get to avoid going bankrupt
b) they get to make money from hugely increased volumes of C-series sales now that they have Airbus behind it.
c) they will see their remaining shareholding in the C-series increase in value. I suspect that the increase they will see will far outstrip the value of the share they have essentially given away.
 
fsabo
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:04 pm

Nean1 wrote:
rheinlaender wrote:
danj555 wrote:
How will Delta not have to pay tariffs now? The 220% tariff is on the product, not the manufacturer.

By producing the Delta Aircraft in Mobile, AL and importing the parts from their respective manufacturing plant (i.e. Northern Ireland) into the US or not exporting them to Canada in the first place.
Then starting a trade war against the european union might be less winable then against canada from an US point of view.


It seems rather naive that with the CS final assembly moving to Alabama, BBD can escape completely unharmed from the imposed tariffs. Let's see:
- The (dumping) selling price remained unchanged;
- Subsidies offered by Canada / Quebec / UK remain unchanged (unpaid);
- The argument that the CSeries line does not rival the 737-700 (still in production) seems even more fanciful.
- The UK continues to follow the EU divorce course.

My bet is that there will be some taxation, albeit more modest.


Airbus is not stupid. Assembly inside the USA legally circumvents the tariffs. If the USA decides to charge tariffs anyway, that is a trade war. Do you think europe will just roll over?
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:16 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:

This is a preposterous level of knee-jerk reaction.


Then dismantle it in a reasoned argument.
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:18 pm

astuteman wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
astuteman wrote:
We've discussed on this thread that the 787 seems to have had an easy ride in this respect compared to some peoples view of what might have happened given the first several hundred frames were sold well below cost.


COST =/= PRICE

Boeing did not PRICE the 787 at unfair levels. If costs exceed price, that's a personal problem not a trade problem.


You know without equivocation that the C-Series situation is any different?

You know without equivocation that the early 787's weren't deliberately sold at or below cost to launch customers? It's a fairly common practice.

doesn't feel all that different to me

Rgds

There's no doubt at all that Boeing sold many 787s at far below cost. Unfortunately, according to WTO rules, "dumping" is not related to price-vs-cost, nor is it related to price-vs-"fair levels". It is related to comparisons of sales prices between different markets (usually domestic and export). It can also take account of sales of similar products from other "foreign" manufacturers (which is why, I suspect, Boeing narrowed down the product specification very tightly). As others have pointed out, there also has to be "harm" (which would, IMO, have been very very hard for Boeing to prove, given their narrowbody backlog)

From what I've seen of the relatively few c-series orders that have been made so far, I doubt very much that a dumping allegation would be upheld at WTO level. But I doubt it was ever about actually having the allegations upheld - I suspect that it was more about pushing Bombardier out of the market long before it got that far.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:28 pm

On a side note I find it hilarious how capitalism, a system intended to prevent monopolies, creates just that: Monopolies.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:33 pm

I stopped reading replies after 7 pages. But here are my thoughts:

This is fantastic news for the C-Series program, Bombardier workers in Canada and Europe, and workers in the Airbus Alabama plant. It's also great news for Airbus.

Airbus can now offer a killer 50-850 seat lineup in any deals going forward, perfectly complimenting each other:

ATR-42-600
ATR-72-600
CS100
CS300
A320neo
A321neo
A330-800neo
A330-900neo
A350-900
A350-1000
A380-800plus

From 2023, C-Series will be 100% Airbus owned. The C-Series will now benefit from a state of the art marketing department including an incredibly valuable Leahy Rolodex and customer portfolio, an excellent supply chain, and security for any potential C-Series customers.

Any comparisons with Boeing and MD's MD-95/MD-11 are basically mute. Boeing already offered competing products to these, and both models were based on warmed over old designs (DC-9/DC-10).

Airbus is now free to focus on the upcoming 797 competition with an A322, perhaps offering an A350-1100 and a neo-fication of the A380. I would also expect some commonality work done on the C-Series and perhaps the A320-series.

The tariffs are now a non-issue, no matter how much Boeing complains. They basically shot themselves in the foot with this one. A US built CS100/300 with 55%+ US parts rolling off the line in Alabama is just as much an American product as a 787-9 rolling off the line in South Carolina with it's plethora of foreign made parts.

I doubt we'll see a CS500 any time soon, as the CS100 and CS300 perfectly compliment the A320neo lineup. The A319neo has not sold since 2012, not because of lack of 100-150 seat demand, but because it's hardly more efficient than an A320.
 
thumper76
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:38 pm

Airbus has enough money backing them to carry the cseries through the rough years leading up to the WTO findings, Regardless of the ITC verdict.
 
Speedalive
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Airbus envisions harmonising CSeries with A320

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:39 pm

I’m curious about what Airbus could do to being the two models closer to each other. I can’t say I’m qualified enough to make an educated guess, but I get the impression that the two planes are really quite different. Would harmonizing the two models involve drastic design changes like, for example, ripping out the current CSeries cockpit and replacing it with an identical setup to the 320?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-envisions-harmonising-cseries-with-a320-442227/
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus envisions harmonising CSeries with A320

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:44 pm

Speedalive wrote:
I’m curious about what Airbus could do to being the two models closer to each other. I can’t say I’m qualified enough to make an educated guess, but I get the impression that the two planes are really quite different. Would harmonizing the two models involve drastic design changes like, for example, ripping out the current CSeries cockpit and replacing it with an identical setup to the 320?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-envisions-harmonising-cseries-with-a320-442227/


My guess is that the cabin offers will be synchronized. Perhaps the Airspace interior will be offered on CSeries.
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Dutchy
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:52 pm

Just a thought: make the CS-series cockpit as much as possible as the A32X cockpit to have a single rating, but it seems the CS-cockpit is more advanced, so perhaps it makes more sense to do it the other way around, but that is only possible with a new model. no current A32X user will accept it. Or would it be doable to create an A32XNEO with an option to make the cockpit like the CS-100/300, I seem to remember McDonnell Douglas has done something like this with the MD-90 for Saudi Arabian Airlines.
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cledaybuck
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:53 pm

speedbored wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
LockheedBBD wrote:
The most interesting thing is what Bombardier's endgame in all of this? The CSeries under the Bombardier is history. Are they going to sell off the CRJ/Q400 for pocket change? I guess BBD can go back to its business jet roots but that market also seems smaller than in past decades.

Bombardier and Embraer were the only western companies that could potentially challenge Boeing/Airbus, but Bombardier is out and Embraer will most likely fold into Boeing eventually. I guess only Russia/China will be able to save the day, but that is decades away.
That's the only thing I don't get about this whole deal. What does BBD get out of it?

a) they get to avoid going bankrupt
b) they get to make money from hugely increased volumes of C-series sales now that they have Airbus behind it.
c) they will see their remaining shareholding in the C-series increase in value. I suspect that the increase they will see will far outstrip the value of the share they have essentially given away.

a) Was that ever really a threat? Haven't Canada and Quebec made clear they would not let that happen?
b) I am skeptical. They are still on the hook for up to $700million. I have a feeling that by the time the increases could be really ready to kick into gear, Airbus will be able to buy them out (if things are going well).
c) Yes. I think this is BBD's biggest (only?) upside. Those shares could be worth real money by the time Airbus can buy them if everything goes well.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:04 pm

JetBuddy wrote:



From 2023, C-Series will be 100% Airbus owned.

Who told you that?
 
speedbird52
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:11 pm

ytz wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:



From 2023, C-Series will be 100% Airbus owned.

Who told you that?


Read the deal. They get to buy out BBD and the Quebec Government at that point.

Well that is just depressing. Guess we are stuck with monopolies after all. Won't be surprised if my children only grow up to see one aircraft manufacture.
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:12 pm

767333ER wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
And you believe that the CS300 has a large advantage over the A319? The operating difference is small, the CS300 acquisition price is now an issue, and there's no commonality for existing A320 family operators. Also, no offense, but I find it insane to think that Airbus will kill off the A320 for an undeveloped airplane with no proven economic advantage and that won't have commonality for the existing A320 family operators.

Oh but there is an operating cost difference and it must be huge considering how few A319neo or any A319 have been sold since 2012 compared to the CS300. What many don’t realize on here is that commonality is not always god. It may be so at Southwest, but many other large airlines either do or are open to adding new types. Sure the A320 and A330 have very similar cockpits, but they are different type ratings AFAIK and you can fly one one flight and the other the next. Otherwise they different in many other ways. The same goes for Boeing, every plane they make now holds a different type rating and are all very different in construction.

I’m just depicting one possible scenario that I think could happen 8+ years from now if Airbus does take full control of the program about the same time Airbus expects to mainly be selling A321s over A320s. They also have various planned improvements for the A320 that have been in consideration for the future. The problem with this for the A320 is when you implement improvements on an airframe, the smaller variants don’t benefit from it nearly as much as the larger ones do, lightsaber would describe this one better. If the improvements would be enough to make the A321 stretchable, do that to make a CASM king and have a more capable/efficient A321 and then fill the A320 that doesn’t benefit as much from the changes would be starting to get dated in 10 years time with a cheap stretch/ improvement of the CSeries leaving Boeing a challenging lineup to combat. They would have nothing to lose at that point considering that in this case, the CSeries would be all theirs anyway. They will have gotten the thing for basically free, why not if it will be more advanced than theirs assuming that matters in 8+ years time. One issue here is whether they want to build that much of a plane in Quebec and Alabama only.

Never did I say it would happen, I said it could. I did not say how likely, but there is some sort of chance if my idea is close enough to reality. Would and could are two very different words.



I think the CS500 is a matter of time. Namely when Boeing launches the NSA. That will free up Airbus to focus on an enlarged 320 and 321. Since they'll have a narrower range for that family, they can better optimize all around. New wing. New landing gear. Tweaked engines if necessary. Common cockpit. Call it the 328/329. They could do a CS500 within 1.5 years. And the renewed 320 lineup in 3 years. All for cheaper than any Boeing program.

A renewed 320 with 198 pax in an LCC config and a two class 321+ (what i call the 329) with 220 pax or 240-250 in LCC config would be a killer offering. All with the CS500 doing nicely in the 150-170 seat category.
 
ytz
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:12 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:



From 2023, C-Series will be 100% Airbus owned.

Who told you that?


Read the deal. They get to buy out BBD and the Quebec Government at that point.
 
ytz
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Re: Airbus envisions harmonising CSeries with A320

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:13 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Speedalive wrote:
I’m curious about what Airbus could do to being the two models closer to each other. I can’t say I’m qualified enough to make an educated guess, but I get the impression that the two planes are really quite different. Would harmonizing the two models involve drastic design changes like, for example, ripping out the current CSeries cockpit and replacing it with an identical setup to the 320?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-envisions-harmonising-cseries-with-a320-442227/


My guess is that the cabin offers will be synchronized. Perhaps the Airspace interior will be offered on CSeries.


Why would they do that? The CS has a fantastic cabin at present. It doesn't need more investment.
 
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keesje
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:13 pm

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
INFINITI329
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:14 pm

KarelXWB wrote:

Bombardier tried (or still tries?) to sell its CRJ/Q400 lines, though nobody seem to be interested.
Something will have to happen, Bombardier neglected its CRJ/Q400 products for a long time and it doesn't sell in large numbers anymore.

However for the CRJ. As we all know the e175-e2 is currently overweight for current scope clauses. BBD just needs to find an engine that's more fuel efficient than the CF34 but light enough to keep the plane under the current scope. Coupled with a cockpit refresh and some aerodynamic enhancements, I think BBD may have a chance. I must admit however to I do not know how much weight BBD would have to play with from the current CR7 & CR9.

LockheedBBD wrote:
Donald Trump is a Boeing shareholder. If anything, that would be motivation enough. Money is king for Mr.Trump


https://mobile.twitter.com/realdonaldtr ... 05?lang=en


To be fair this is from 2103, we don't know if he is still a shareholder
 
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:18 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

From 2023, C-Series will be 100% Airbus owned.

Who told you that?


Jon Ostrower said so in a tweet:

"The fine print on the deal is that by 2023 Airbus will buy out the remaining Bombardier and Quebec C Series shares."

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 6899763200
 
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VirginFlyer
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:19 pm

keesje wrote:
Image

Is the fly part of the Airbus/Bombardier/Québec joint venture? :lol:

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:24 pm

keesje wrote:
Image


Is that your take on a CS500? Looks really nice and proportional actually. :) I doubt Airbus will go ahead with it though, simply because it would directly compete with the A320. Unless they could fit it between the A320 and A321.
 
WaywardMemphian
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:29 pm

keesje wrote:
Image

What are we looking at? A CS500?
 
many321
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:34 pm

keesje wrote:
Image


Looks like A321Neo with a CSeries cockpit.
 
BREECH
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Re: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:39 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
Same. I wonder if Boeing is on the phone with Embraer and Mitsubishi now.

Getting a busy tone. :-D Embraer doesn't need partners for its E2 and Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation is backed by an industrial conglomerate that makes the entire American industry look like a corner shop.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
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BREECH
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:41 pm

I'm still reading the previous 18 pages so forgive me if someone said that already. All this news is great and puts Airbus in a leading position. BUT!!! Boeing has a nice card up its sleeve. If they bite their pride a little and admit they're falling a bit behind, they can partner up with the Russians on their MC-21. Would make a nice 737 replacement. Russian ingenuity + Boeing marketing and production expertise = Airbus will need to catch up.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
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Jayafe
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:45 pm

BREECH wrote:
I'm still reading the previous 18 pages so forgive me if someone said that already. All this news is great and puts Airbus in a leading position. BUT!!! Boeing has a nice card up its sleeve. If they bite their pride a little and admit they're falling a bit behind, they can partner up with the Russians on their MC-21. Would make a nice 737 replacement. Russian ingenuity + Boeing marketing and production expertise = Airbus will need to catch up.


A Russian company and a defence US contractor doing "relevant" business together sounds quite unlikely in this era.......
 
BREECH
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Re: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:46 pm

Jamie514 wrote:
Did they really cede all control? I thought the bullet points called it a joint venture and project admin remains in Quebec...they’ll be helping to lower costs in the supply chain and provide top tier marketing plus an American assembly location and better legal guidance for selling into protectionist jurisdictions.


Yes, they did lose control. All this "joint venture" is just a European way of being NICE and sparing Canadian feelings - a concept unknown to Americans.

Jamie514 wrote:
What worries me is we may not see the design reach its full potential since its now a unit of A. I’m hoping Airbus pushes at least to the CS500 which allows them to optimize the 320 around the 321-322.

Airbus is known to explore its EVERY platform's potential to the limit in all directions. A320 became A321 and A319 and (maybe not a good idea but still) A318. A380 is reaching full potential on steroids. A340, A330. Worry not.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
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BREECH
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:48 pm

Breathe wrote:
Don't forget about the 4,000 workers in Belfast, Northern Ireland too, I'm sure they'll just as relieved!

What happens in Belfast?
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
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Jayafe
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:51 pm

BREECH wrote:
Breathe wrote:
Don't forget about the 4,000 workers in Belfast, Northern Ireland too, I'm sure they'll just as relieved!

What happens in Belfast?


That they wanted to keep manufacturing CSeries' wings...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/man ... -1.3259860
Last edited by Jayafe on Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
queb
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:54 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:

From 2023, C-Series will be 100% Airbus owned.

Who told you that?


Jon Ostrower said so in a tweet:

"The fine print on the deal is that by 2023 Airbus will buy out the remaining Bombardier and Quebec C Series shares."

https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/ ... 6899763200


2023 is for the IQ share (19%), it's 2025 (or after) for the Bombardier share (29%).

http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/news ... ercom.html?

Airbus will benefit from call rights in respect of all of Bombardier’s interest in CSALP at fair market value, with the amount for non-voting participating shares used by Bombardier capped at the invested amount plus accrued but unpaid dividends, including a call right exercisable no earlier than 7.5 years following the closing (Editor's Note: second half 2018 so not before 2025), except in the event of certain changes in the control of Bombardier, in which case the right is accelerated. Bombardier will benefit from a corresponding put right whereby it could require that Airbus acquire its interest at fair market value after the expiry of the same period. IQ’s interest is redeemable at fair market value by CSALP, under certain conditions, starting in 2023. IQ will also benefit from tag along rights in connection with a sale by Bombardier of its interest in the partnership.
 
BREECH
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:57 pm

KATL2 wrote:
Bloomberg article https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... et-program

Airbus will own 50.01%
Bombardier will own 31%
Quebec will own 19%

(I realize those percentages don't add completely up, I'm simply posting what the article says)

Airbus will add CSeries production to their Alabama plant

AND they will ALL speak common language - FRENCH! :-D
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
BREECH
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:58 pm

Jayafe wrote:
BREECH wrote:
Breathe wrote:
Don't forget about the 4,000 workers in Belfast, Northern Ireland too, I'm sure they'll just as relieved!

What happens in Belfast?


That they wanted to keep manufacturing CSeries' wings...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/man ... -1.3259860

Have they learned nothing from the Titanic!? Glad for the Irish, though. Always good to keep the job.
No friendship, love or respect unite people as much as shared hatred.
Sergey Dovlatov
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Breaking: Airbus and Bombardier Announce C Series Partnership

Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:59 pm

According to Bloomberg article and interview with Patrrick de Castelbajak (Airbus Strategy & International Executive Vice President) and CEO Tom Enders

- Bombardier approached Airbus this summer
- Airbus felt the "stars were aligned". This time was different than the 2015 negotiations because airframe was certified, customers happy, aircraft was mature.
- Bombardier to invest $350 million over next two years to the C-Series program
- Airbus to gain full control over the C-Series venture over the coming years, first taking over Quebec shares and others up to 70%, and then Bombardier shares to 100%
- Airbus will put C-Series ahead of own A319neo in sales push
- Future Airbus projects will incorperate C-Series technology
- Enders said he’s confident the surprise deal will make both the CS300 and the smaller CS100 a “roaring success in the market.”

Other interesting snippets:

"Enders, speaking at the EU Aeronautics conference in Brussels, said Airbus plans to tap cutting-edge C Series technology in areas such as the cockpit, avionics and composite materials for future aircraft models."

“That has always been Airbus’s strategy, to look for as much commonality between the various aircraft as possible,” he said. “There’s a lot I think we can do. The C Series is a state-of-the-art aircraft in every aspect, one of the most modern generation aircraft in terms of cockpit, in terms of material.”

"Enders described U.S. tariffs imposed on the C Series after a complaint from Boeing Co. as “ludicrous.” Airbus is planning to open a production line for the plane at its own plant in Mobile, Alabama, in a move that may help Bombardier escape the 300 percent duty imposed on planes bound for the American market."

Fair use quotes from:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... sales-push

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